| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
IhrFussel |
Then it will be (ab)used by server owners for non-testing |
| 00:00 |
sofar |
nobody will play on those servers |
| 00:00 |
sofar |
or, people will play but without the csms actually running on the players clients |
| 00:01 |
sofar |
and if the server kicks clients if they detect that their csms aren't running, players will leave |
| 00:01 |
sofar |
I think that's a good tradeoff |
| 00:01 |
sofar |
excellent, even |
| 00:01 |
sofar |
developers don't need to wait for cdb to test code |
| 00:01 |
sofar |
experienced players can 'trust' if they want |
| 00:01 |
sofar |
most players will likely never and are secured |
| 00:02 |
IhrFussel |
You need to explain to me again hwo I can, as server owner, send my own non-distributed, server-specific customized mod code to clients |
| 00:02 |
Shara |
A server would need a strong player base with a high trust level for the owner to be able to push such CSm to any great extent, and the more it was required as opposed to optional extras, the more difficulty there would be getting more players. |
| 00:02 |
sofar |
IhrFussel: same way that signed mod code goes to the client, direclty from server to client |
| 00:02 |
Shara |
The strength would really be in optional extras |
| 00:02 |
sofar |
only dfference is the embedded signature |
| 00:03 |
sofar |
so what me and rubenwardy envision is something like this: |
| 00:03 |
sofar |
mod writer makes a mod with an embedded csm |
| 00:03 |
sofar |
posts the code to cdb |
| 00:03 |
sofar |
cdb reviews and signs the csm part, |
| 00:03 |
sofar |
cdb then publishes a zip file with the embedded signatures for the csm parts |
| 00:04 |
sofar |
the server owner puts THAT zip file contents on his server |
| 00:04 |
sofar |
the client connecting then downloads the signed csm and signatures directly from the server |
| 00:04 |
sofar |
the client verifies the signature with the cdb pubkey it has |
| 00:04 |
sofar |
the client sees they match and runs the csm |
| 00:05 |
IhrFussel |
Shara, think about the possibilities one day...when you can tell the CLIENT to update the HUD every sec instead of having to loop through every client server side to do that... and particles, physics etc... it can make gameplay a LOT smoother |
| 00:05 |
sofar |
I think in the end players will want CSM more than server owners |
| 00:06 |
sofar |
since it will allow resources on the client to be used that are otherwise idle |
| 00:06 |
sofar |
and on the server side resources are likely at a premium |
| 00:06 |
sofar |
because of scale |
| 00:06 |
Shara |
Fussel: yes, that's why I'd like to see it happen like this. |
| 00:07 |
Shara |
But giving clients the ability to decide what to accept is pretty important |
| 00:08 |
sofar |
I'm myself a fan of the "mozilla certs" type where you can say "I trust these people to decide for me" |
| 00:09 |
sofar |
which is why I think that CDB review model will work very well for everyone |
| 00:09 |
sofar |
both players and server owners |
| 00:09 |
sofar |
as for server tweaks |
| 00:09 |
sofar |
IhrFussel: I think that it will force mod writers to properly use settings and non-hardcoded defaults and behavior |
| 00:09 |
sofar |
which is going to be better code |
| 00:10 |
sofar |
e.g. better use of mod channels and local storage |
| 00:11 |
sofar |
here, imagine this scenario: |
| 00:11 |
IhrFussel |
Allowing clients to decide which code runs and which not will cause more work for server owners still ... and it means servers still have to run the same code server side for clients that refuse it to run locally ... was it planned like this? To have duplicated code server and client side? |
| 00:12 |
sofar |
forget about that |
| 00:12 |
sofar |
there's no reason to worry about that |
| 00:12 |
sofar |
if you would, you're going to write terrible code that will make your server crap |
| 00:12 |
sofar |
you can never offer the same experience to players who refuse to run any csm |
| 00:12 |
sofar |
so don't |
| 00:13 |
sofar |
and the whole idea that the code is "duplicated" is a bit of a fallacy |
| 00:13 |
IhrFussel |
But Shara, nerzhul and possibly others want it like that ... to give the client the freedom to run only the functions/callbacks the user allows |
| 00:14 |
sofar |
this whole "optional" / "required" / "soime third level" is bullshit imho |
| 00:14 |
sofar |
I've only heard nerzhul talk about it |
| 00:14 |
sofar |
is anyone even in favor of that? |
| 00:14 |
paramat |
(ok i see the issue, a server could alter sscsm code from what is published and a client wouldn't know and can't check the code) |
| 00:15 |
IhrFussel |
Shara supports it on GH and another user |
| 00:15 |
sofar |
honestly I think it's just a waste of time to even implement it |
| 00:15 |
Shara |
Fussel, quite honestly I want CSM in any form to go bye bye, but we know that's unlikely |
| 00:15 |
IhrFussel |
Let me check the post |
| 00:15 |
sofar |
paramat: no, it can't |
| 00:15 |
Shara |
Fussel, I'm in favour of the server getting more control. |
| 00:15 |
Shara |
If there is a better option than one specific approach, by all means take the better option |
| 00:16 |
Shara |
But I mostly think you are worrying way too much |
| 00:16 |
sofar |
signed csm's would give the server control with the exception of clients not running any |
| 00:16 |
paramat |
"to give the client the freedom to run only the functions/callbacks the user allows" i oppose that too |
| 00:16 |
Shara |
I see most things not being required |
| 00:16 |
sofar |
to me, it's all or nothing, and signed csm implements just that |
| 00:17 |
IhrFussel |
1. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/8000#issuecomment-448514658 2. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/8000#issuecomment-448941129 |
| 00:17 |
paramat |
yes, accept sscsms or nothing, that's my preference |
| 00:18 |
sofar |
there is nothing wrong with people disabling javascript in browsers |
| 00:18 |
paramat |
my comment https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8002#issuecomment-448800634 |
| 00:18 |
sofar |
there is nothing wrong with players disabling sscsm in minetest |
| 00:18 |
Shara |
Fussel, if you think I mean clients should go through and accept each individual thing, then no, not really what I mean at all |
| 00:19 |
sofar |
if the server owner doesn't like it, they can kick the player ... |
| 00:19 |
sofar |
as I said, I will even write a CSM for server owners to detect if players don't enable csms for them |
| 00:19 |
Shara |
But if I join some new server, know nothing about the owner, and have no way to check what the code is or does.... then I want to be able to say no to running it |
| 00:20 |
sofar |
right |
| 00:20 |
Shara |
If it's possible to confirm it's on CDB and has been reviewed by someone there, then I will feel I should be able to trust it... If someone I know has written it, again, I may feel I can trust it... otherwise? no thanks. |
| 00:20 |
IhrFussel |
Shara, I think you don't see a big issue: What if my mod now includes important SSCM code that NEEDS to run on the client or else the client will have a broken gameplay...now that client refuses to run that code because of "restrictions" ... it will make everything extremely complex |
| 00:20 |
Shara |
It's nto complex at all. |
| 00:20 |
Shara |
not* |
| 00:20 |
sofar |
<sofar> as I said, I will even write a CSM for server owners to detect if players don't enable csms for them |
| 00:21 |
sofar |
in other words, to kick them |
| 00:21 |
Shara |
It would just mean you have to either release that on CDB or somewhere else that will be trusted |
| 00:21 |
Shara |
Or you need to accept you may not be able to offer a good experience to some players as a result of your own choices |
| 00:21 |
IhrFussel |
We are not talking about that... we currently talk about clients deciding which features of the API can run and which can't |
| 00:21 |
paramat |
yeah not complex. servers can refuse clients tha refuse sscsm |
| 00:22 |
sofar |
IhrFussel: remember one thing: it's trivially simple to modify CSM and make everything a stub "faking" csm to the server |
| 00:22 |
paramat |
nevermind nerzhul's silly idea |
| 00:22 |
Shara |
Fussel, as a server owner YOU decide if you will demand clients to accept a certain thing in order for the experience to not break |
| 00:22 |
sofar |
IhrFussel: if players want to do this, why would you bother defending against it? |
| 00:22 |
paramat |
(*that) |
| 00:23 |
IhrFussel |
You people confuse me: So do we all agree that nrz's proposal (let the client have different allowed "API levels") is bad? |
| 00:23 |
sofar |
honestly, I think there shouldn't even be a way for the client to notify the server that sscsm is disabled or the csm mod code wasn't trusted |
| 00:24 |
sofar |
different levels is bad, and not needed |
| 00:24 |
paramat |
Ihr yes i agree |
| 00:24 |
Shara |
I'd favout a system where you trust the source of the mods instead |
| 00:24 |
Shara |
favour* |
| 00:24 |
Shara |
With CDB then being the main official source |
| 00:25 |
IhrFussel |
Okay so the thing you want is the required signing of the SSCM mod which forces server owners to distribute their modified mod "somewhere" |
| 00:25 |
sofar |
"forces" only by popular vote, essentially. They can sign code themselves. |
| 00:26 |
sofar |
signing by cdb allows oversight to happen that players need to be able to trust it |
| 00:26 |
IhrFussel |
But who then checks if the code is dangerous? |
| 00:26 |
sofar |
cdb reviewers |
| 00:26 |
sofar |
rubenwardy, me, those type of people |
| 00:26 |
IhrFussel |
Yes so server owners have to distribute their custom versions to the cdb in order to get it reviewed and let clients dwnload it |
| 00:27 |
IhrFussel |
download* |
| 00:27 |
sofar |
if, if, they want cdb to sign it |
| 00:27 |
sofar |
yes they need to show it to cdb |
| 00:27 |
sofar |
cdb will not sign unseen code |
| 00:27 |
IhrFussel |
Else the clients will be warned that the mod is unsigned and might be dangerous? |
| 00:27 |
Shara |
Not unsigned... but not signed by CDB |
| 00:28 |
sofar |
detail problem |
| 00:28 |
Shara |
You could sign it, and players could choose to trust you :) |
| 00:28 |
sofar |
I'm not entirely sure about how to handle it |
| 00:28 |
sofar |
most likely silently not trust it |
| 00:28 |
IhrFussel |
Okay but you don't plan to outright CANCEL the option to load "non-cdb signed" mods from the server? You still want to let users decide? |
| 00:30 |
sofar |
hold on, complex sentence, parsing |
| 00:30 |
sofar |
well, so, I haven't made up my mind as to how the client should behave exactly |
| 00:31 |
IhrFussel |
I mean you want to give users the option to still load the SSCM without it being signed on cdb |
| 00:31 |
sofar |
however, I do believe that "warnings" to the player are bad |
| 00:31 |
sofar |
oh wait |
| 00:31 |
sofar |
so what I actually want is that the client can trust MORE reviewers than just cdb |
| 00:31 |
sofar |
but, adding trust should be "explicit" |
| 00:31 |
Shara |
Warnings can be bad, because they can scare people away big time |
| 00:32 |
sofar |
as in, you go and download a file and put it in ~/.minetest/certs/ |
| 00:32 |
IhrFussel |
rubenwardy said that this was his original goal but is more work before he left |
| 00:32 |
paramat |
yeah, cdb shouldn't be the only trustworthy reviewer |
| 00:32 |
sofar |
and then minetest will allow a non-cdb signature |
| 00:32 |
sofar |
we need this, otherwise |
| 00:32 |
sofar |
developers could never test sscsms |
| 00:33 |
sofar |
and even |
| 00:33 |
sofar |
I would allow players to remove 'cdb trust' |
| 00:34 |
sofar |
which is effectively the same as "don't run any sscsm" |
| 00:34 |
sofar |
I mean, if there's no other cert of another reviewer |
| 00:34 |
sofar |
maybe we can even chain signatures so you could allow mods to be signed by multiple reviewers |
| 00:36 |
IhrFussel |
SSCM sounds more and more complicated to implement every time people talk about its implementation |
| 00:36 |
sofar |
anyway, I have to skedaddledoo |
| 00:36 |
sofar |
this isn't that much more complicated |
| 00:37 |
sofar |
even review and signing are relateively simple |
| 00:37 |
sofar |
most likely we can make MT even sign stuff and trust local signatures in singleplayer mode |
| 00:37 |
* sofar |
& out |
| 00:42 |
IhrFussel |
BTW I found it pretty rude to be called an "extremist" by nrz just because I don't support his ideology of SSCM |
| 00:43 |
IhrFussel |
If we take the "client needs all the freedom it can have" too far we can just scrap the whole SSCM idea |
| 00:45 |
paramat |
'some server owners are all extremists' =D |
| 00:45 |
IhrFussel |
SSCMs are run locally then by definition, so some people will always say "this is my computer and i decide what can be run by servers on it" ... server and client opinions clash here |
| 00:46 |
Shara |
and those people should go play singleplayer :) |
| 00:46 |
IhrFussel |
I mean the server wants the client to run x but the client says "no this is not the server's decision I only run y" |
| 00:48 |
IhrFussel |
Until now it was pretty easy to distinguish between "server rights" and "client rights" cause all mods are 100% run server side and the client only receives commands from within the c++ code ... that will change with SSCM and I think there will be quite a few big arguments...controversies |
| 00:49 |
Shara |
What do you think we already have with CSM? |
| 00:50 |
paramat |
any questions about csm ask in #7995 i will attempt to explain |
| 00:50 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7995 -- Attempt at a summary of CSM, as requested (plus possible issues) |
| 00:51 |
paramat |
lol right |
| 00:51 |
IhrFussel |
Yes that is onyl the beginning...cause right now many people who "need" their client provided mods get mad when they are told to disable them |
| 00:51 |
Shara |
So what is your solution, Fussel? |
| 00:52 |
IhrFussel |
The question will be "which side is more important to obey" |
| 00:52 |
paramat |
the client will be able to refuse sscsms of course, and the server will be able to refuse clients that refuse sscsms |
| 00:52 |
IhrFussel |
IMO the clients have to obey when they play on my server ... but others might see it differently |
| 00:53 |
Shara |
Which is no different than any other aspect of runnign a server ever |
| 00:53 |
Shara |
Or we would not get rule breakers or ban dodgers or peopel trying to enable privs by editing client code |
| 00:54 |
IhrFussel |
Yes they can disable SSCM that is not the question...I mean some "freedom elitists" might argue that they want the "API level" crap added to control the server sent mods more |
| 00:56 |
Shara |
Sometimes it's like we invent issues just to have issues to argue. |
| 00:56 |
paramat |
lol |
| 01:06 |
IhrFussel |
Well it#s not 100% clear where the line is drawn between server and client ... and SSCM will blur that line even more |
| 01:12 |
Shara |
I've already asked you what your solution would be |
| 01:14 |
Shara |
CSM is already a thing. As much as I'd love to wish it away, that's a bit difficult. |
| 01:14 |
IhrFussel |
Not sure if there is one... server owners wants as much freedom as possible and client wants that too |
| 01:14 |
IhrFussel |
I mean freedom in terms of features executed client side |
| 01:19 |
paramat |
there's still a part of me that wants to pull it all out, may still happen, but looks like we're giving it a try first. i'll be keeping a close eye on it from now on |
| 01:21 |
tumeninodes |
damned if you do / damned if you don't ... choose your flavour |
| 01:21 |
* VanessaE |
peeks in |
| 01:21 |
tumeninodes |
:) |
| 01:22 |
* tumeninodes |
throws VanessaE a creepy smile |
| 01:22 |
VanessaE |
>:-) muahhahah |
| 01:23 |
VanessaE |
I'll see your creepy and raise you an evil laugh :D |
| 01:23 |
VanessaE |
also hi |
| 01:23 |
tumeninodes |
howdy |
| 01:24 |
tumeninodes |
my version of home decor ; ) https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=338529#p338529 |
| 01:24 |
VanessaE |
seems I've walked into a ...ahem... discussion of great volume. :) |
| 01:24 |
VanessaE |
nice stairway :) |
| 01:24 |
tumeninodes |
yes... I came in advanced and "disposed" of all the evil wine and scotch before it started |
| 01:25 |
tumeninodes |
thank ya |
| 01:25 |
VanessaE |
odd. the forum hasn't been emailing me with updates on that thread. |
| 01:26 |
* VanessaE |
checks spam |
| 01:26 |
tumeninodes |
haha, fitting place for it :P |
| 01:26 |
VanessaE |
hm, nothing relevant |
| 01:27 |
tumeninodes |
exacticall.... |
| 01:27 |
VanessaE |
*moves a couple unrelated things out of spam, deletes all* |
| 01:27 |
tumeninodes |
hey?! |
| 01:28 |
VanessaE |
? |
| 01:28 |
tumeninodes |
nvm I thought the nothing rel comment was regarding the thread, I was tying to be funny-ish |
| 01:28 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 01:29 |
VanessaE |
nah, nothing relevant in spam I meant :) |
| 01:30 |
tumeninodes |
spam folder holds the only emails I get :( |
| 01:30 |
VanessaE |
:< |
| 01:31 |
tumeninodes |
gonna tackle adding these this function to walls and stairs mods soon, and then another half ass attempt to work it into mapgen via engine |
| 01:31 |
tumeninodes |
https://pastebin.com/NFX5ThJv |
| 01:31 |
VanessaE |
good luck with it :) |
| 01:31 |
tumeninodes |
definitely gonna get messy... I am sure I will cry too at some point |
| 01:33 |
tumeninodes |
I find the best way to have fun, is not having any idea wtf you're doing |
| 01:33 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 01:34 |
VanessaE |
isn't that how the best discoveries are made? :) |
| 01:34 |
tumeninodes |
those... |
| 01:34 |
tumeninodes |
and tragedies |
| 01:35 |
VanessaE |
bigger risk, bigger reward, eh? |
| 01:35 |
tumeninodes |
that's what I've heard |
| 01:35 |
tumeninodes |
not sure anyone has tested it out thoroughly |
| 01:36 |
tumeninodes |
unless my reward system is broked |
| 02:24 |
|
rubenwardy joined #minetest-hub |
| 02:28 |
rubenwardy |
another coursework submitted! 2 to go |
| 02:36 |
VanessaE |
Achievement unlocked: homework finished! |
| 02:36 |
VanessaE |
:D |
| 07:38 |
|
jluc joined #minetest-hub |
| 07:51 |
|
CWz joined #minetest-hub |
| 11:00 |
ANAND |
Hello. Has anyone else come across a runtime error which does not specify a modname, the line in file that causes the error, or a stack traceback |
| 11:00 |
ANAND |
?? |
| 11:00 |
VanessaE |
aside from just flat-out segfaults? |
| 11:00 |
ANAND |
Doesn't mention segfaults |
| 11:00 |
ANAND |
It just says this: |
| 11:01 |
ANAND |
ERROR[Main]: ModError: Runtime error from mod '' in callback on_receiving_message(): attempt to call a nil value |
| 11:01 |
ANAND |
ERROR[Main]: stack traceback: |
| 11:01 |
ANAND |
ERROR[Main]: Check debug.txt for details. |
| 11:01 |
VanessaE |
I've seen that before. I get lots of segfaults more than anything else |
| 11:03 |
ANAND |
But doesn't a segfault mention "segmentation fault" in the logs? |
| 11:03 |
VanessaE |
probably not. |
| 11:03 |
ANAND |
Hmm... I see |
| 11:03 |
VanessaE |
(but I capture the console output, rather than relying on debug.txt) |
| 11:04 |
ANAND |
I've done that too |
| 11:04 |
ANAND |
I've also tried --trace |
| 11:05 |
ANAND |
I just get that single error message. Nothing else |
| 11:05 |
ANAND |
This happens when I try to run capturetheflag (sub-)game on 5.0.0-dev |
| 11:07 |
ANAND |
Until recently, it ran just fine on 5.0.0-dev, which is even stranger. |
| 11:08 |
ANAND |
I think a recent commit probably broke compat between 0.4.x worlds and 5.0.0-dev |
| 11:08 |
ANAND |
I'll try creating a new world |
| 11:28 |
ANAND |
It doesn't throw the error in a new world. o_O |
| 11:33 |
|
_Xenon joined #minetest-hub |
| 11:42 |
|
Fixer joined #minetest-hub |
| 11:46 |
|
bobr joined #minetest-hub |
| 12:52 |
|
DI3HARD139 joined #minetest-hub |
| 13:25 |
* rubenwardy |
sighs https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21599 |
| 14:06 |
|
Gael-de-Sailly joined #minetest-hub |
| 14:17 |
|
aerozoic joined #minetest-hub |
| 14:42 |
bobr |
fricken hackers man |
| 14:42 |
bobr |
theyve got noclip and creative now apparently |
| 14:55 |
|
scr267 joined #minetest-hub |
| 15:05 |
Fixer |
fuck github/ms |
| 15:05 |
Fixer |
do you remember layout for posting a code in github? |
| 15:05 |
Fixer |
--- or smth |
| 15:06 |
T4im |
``` |
| 15:06 |
Fixer |
thanks! |
| 15:08 |
|
IhrFussel joined #minetest-hub |
| 15:25 |
|
scr267a joined #minetest-hub |
| 15:25 |
IhrFussel |
bobr, modified clients cannot cheat privs and it's up to the mods to prevent users with insufficient privs from accessing items ... there are also quite a few mods with item duplication bugs so that's another way to cheat free items you shouldn't have |
| 15:28 |
IhrFussel |
A big security hole are storage nodes which don't correctly check the privs in the allow_take() callback ... for example if someone codes a CSM which is able to access metadata of inventories and that check is missing then you CAN take the stuff |
| 15:29 |
IhrFussel |
Many inventory mods only check privs in on_rightclick() which is a BIG no-no |
| 15:37 |
IhrFussel |
unified_inventory seems to be safe from such an exploit since you don't have actual item stacks in the menu list (right side) but only formspec buttons which then check your privs as soon as you click them... shouldn't be able to bypass that with CSM |
| 15:41 |
Shara |
Fussel: they might not be able to cheat privs as such, but they can skip the requirement for having certain privs |
| 15:43 |
IhrFussel |
Shara, only if the inventories/storage nodes are missing the checks I wrote above...there shouldn't be another way |
| 15:43 |
Shara |
fly/fast/noclip have nothign to do with inventory checks |
| 15:43 |
IhrFussel |
Before CSM the allow_take() could never be executed without on_rightclick() (without client hacks) |
| 15:43 |
Shara |
nothing* |
| 15:44 |
IhrFussel |
But bobr said they can have creative now |
| 15:44 |
Shara |
He also mentioned noclip |
| 15:44 |
Shara |
And your reply was general - implying clients cannot "cheat" any privs, which is not really true |
| 15:44 |
IhrFussel |
Yes but I assumed it's well-known that noclip can be enablked with hacked clients...just like fly and fast |
| 15:45 |
IhrFussel |
Pretty much every movement related stuff can be cheated |
| 15:45 |
Shara |
So make sure you are specific when you dismiss a claim of cheating |
| 15:46 |
IhrFussel |
But AT LEAST items are 100% safe from hackers if the definition of the inventories/storage nodes are correct and check privs on EVERY action not just rightclick/punch |
| 15:47 |
IhrFussel |
Yeah I should've mentioned that...I forgot about the other part of his message when I wrote my reply |
| 15:47 |
Shara |
Are they really? |
| 15:48 |
IhrFussel |
There is no way to bypass the allow_take() check of inventories AFAIK |
| 15:48 |
Shara |
As far as you know |
| 15:48 |
Shara |
100% is just a pretty bold claim |
| 15:49 |
IhrFussel |
100% safe up until this day |
| 15:49 |
IhrFussel |
Nobody knows if people will find a way to bypass that check... but I doubt it's possible... we can just ask some core devs how secure allow_take() is |
| 15:50 |
Shara |
Well, I can recall at least two ways I could have helped myself to items from other players locked chests on current stable servers (I reported the issue to the server owner in each case) |
| 15:50 |
Shara |
And those were nothing to do with inventory checks |
| 15:51 |
Shara |
Mods don't always play nicely together in the ways that people might assume, and there are very few things you can ever be 100% certain of when it comes to security |
| 15:51 |
IhrFussel |
Are you talking about mesecons? |
| 15:51 |
Shara |
No, and I'd rather not say more |
| 15:52 |
IhrFussel |
You mean you don't access the contents directly but still receive them? That sounds impossible |
| 15:52 |
Shara |
Nopt my fault if you can't think creatively |
| 15:52 |
Shara |
Not* |
| 15:52 |
Shara |
AFK |
| 15:53 |
IhrFussel |
Does it require certain broken mods to do it? Or it works in vanilla MTG? |
| 16:14 |
IhrFussel |
Okay so some of my previous messages might have sounded confusing/misleading ... what I ultimately mean is that, as long as the server has no mods that have broken code/missing checks, even the most modified client cannot just give itself any item it likes |
| 17:05 |
rubenwardy |
ContentDB redesign: https://i.rubenwardy.com/95enj.png |
| 17:08 |
rubenwardy |
when you're not logged in: https://i.rubenwardy.com/Rwlki.png |
| 17:16 |
|
Andrey01 joined #minetest-hub |
| 17:19 |
|
Andrey01 joined #minetest-hub |
| 17:20 |
Andrey01 |
rubenwardy: i don`t see the Content DB is redesigned now |
| 17:20 |
rubenwardy |
because it's not been deployed yet |
| 17:21 |
Andrey01 |
i even went to Mesecons page, this is same as before |
| 17:21 |
rubenwardy |
<rubenwardy> because it's not been deployed yet |
| 17:21 |
Andrey01 |
that page that you showed |
| 17:21 |
sfan5 |
rubenwardy: the download button could use a greener green if you ask me |
| 17:21 |
rubenwardy |
yeah, I was actually thinking that |
| 17:21 |
rubenwardy |
I'm also not happy with the button placement |
| 17:21 |
rubenwardy |
the ones in the image should probably be icons instead |
| 17:25 |
Andrey01 |
and next question: does "content" menu section in the game display dependencies, more full description and releases now from content.minetest.net? |
| 17:25 |
Andrey01 |
of each mod |
| 17:28 |
Andrey01 |
does it display now? |
| 17:31 |
rubenwardy |
no, the displaying hasn't changed in a while |
| 17:31 |
rubenwardy |
there's related issues for this |
| 17:31 |
Andrey01 |
ohhh |
| 17:31 |
rubenwardy |
the point of CDB is to have a well structured source of information |
| 17:32 |
rubenwardy |
so that all the mods[tm] can be added before full support is even implemented |
| 17:47 |
|
benrob0329 joined #minetest-hub |
| 17:53 |
|
Krock joined #minetest-hub |
| 17:53 |
Krock |
hi Fixer |
| 17:53 |
Fixer |
hi Krock |
| 17:54 |
Krock |
you didn't see that one coming :D |
| 18:21 |
IhrFussel |
shivajiva, after the import I no longer need 'auth.sql' correct? |
| 18:22 |
shivajiva |
correct |
| 18:23 |
IhrFussel |
Doesn't sauth delete it automatically or went something wrong? |
| 18:25 |
shivajiva |
don't think it deletes it, the main mechanism for getting doing a transfer is manual import |
| 18:25 |
shivajiva |
-gettting |
| 18:26 |
shivajiva |
I can only see a cleanup for sauth.sqlite on re-run |
| 18:54 |
|
_Xenon joined #minetest-hub |
| 19:46 |
Fixer |
minetest 5.0 runs on my kitkat, but not for long if going into contentdb, since I have at most 400mb of free RAM, if you don't go there and just create a world - works with 24+ fps |
| 19:53 |
Fixer |
kinda sucks it can't dump unused parts of ram when low on ram, including on 32 bit systems |
| 20:00 |
IhrFussel |
The "content" tab can even make my 1 GB RAM phone crash |
| 20:00 |
IhrFussel |
Something doesn't seem right there |
| 20:00 |
rubenwardy |
It should probably just be disabled on Android |
| 20:01 |
rubenwardy |
and link to this instead: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rubenwardy.minetestmodmanager&hl=en_US |
| 20:01 |
IhrFussel |
rubenwardy, any reason why it requires so much mamory? |
| 20:01 |
IhrFussel |
memory* |
| 20:02 |
rubenwardy |
your phone is probably already using half of that |
| 20:02 |
IhrFussel |
It#s weird that MT SP runs fine but the cdb menu can crash |
| 20:03 |
rubenwardy |
SP is C++, cdb is Lua |
| 20:03 |
rubenwardy |
each value in lua is at least 64 bits |
| 20:03 |
IhrFussel |
Oh WOW |
| 20:03 |
rubenwardy |
also, the list is stored twice |
| 20:03 |
IhrFussel |
It crashes after 30 secs |
| 20:03 |
rubenwardy |
once is sorted |
| 20:04 |
IhrFussel |
The problem is likely that it needs to load all results at once |
| 20:04 |
rubenwardy |
opening the store increases usage by 66MB on a computer |
| 20:05 |
IhrFussel |
Let me check a realtime ram usage widget |
| 20:06 |
|
Tmanyo joined #minetest-hub |
| 20:07 |
rubenwardy |
flicking through the pages also causes the memory to rise, probably because of the images |
| 20:07 |
rubenwardy |
MMDB had this problem too though |
| 20:07 |
rubenwardy |
just had a lot less mods |
| 20:07 |
rubenwardy |
(the cdb code in the main menu is inspired by MMDB) |
| 20:08 |
IhrFussel |
70% RAM free when I start MT |
| 20:08 |
rubenwardy |
going in-game causes it to use 300MB quickly |
| 20:09 |
IhrFussel |
As soon as I open the cdb menu the RAM overlay disappears which means memory low and after 20-30 secs it crashes the whole app |
| 20:09 |
IhrFussel |
That cannot be normal |
| 20:10 |
rubenwardy |
what does "after 20-30s" mean |
| 20:10 |
rubenwardy |
can you see the store? Do images appear? |
| 20:10 |
IhrFussel |
20-30 secs after I tap "Browse online content" the app crashes |
| 20:10 |
IhrFussel |
Yes |
| 20:10 |
IhrFussel |
It all appears but after that time it crashes |
| 20:11 |
rubenwardy |
do you do anything, like change pages? |
| 20:11 |
IhrFussel |
Basically it idles in the menu until the crash |
| 20:12 |
IhrFussel |
I can change pages but it still crashes... no matter what I do it will crash after that time |
| 20:13 |
IhrFussel |
I'll try to stay in the search field |
| 20:14 |
IhrFussel |
No crash when searching it seems but I assume it will crash as soon as I leave the type mode |
| 20:15 |
IhrFussel |
Nope, still works...now I wonder if it crashes again after leaving the search mode for 20-30 secs |
| 20:15 |
IhrFussel |
Yep it does |
| 20:15 |
rubenwardy |
what does search mod mean? |
| 20:16 |
IhrFussel |
When your phone shows you a blank field to type |
| 20:16 |
rubenwardy |
ah, that will be pausing the activity |
| 20:16 |
rubenwardy |
so Minetest won't be running in the background |
| 20:16 |
rubenwardy |
probably |
| 20:16 |
IhrFussel |
Yep but it still takes 20-30 secs to crash in the normal cdb menu... |
| 20:17 |
IhrFussel |
Even after leaving the "type mode" |
| 20:17 |
IhrFussel |
Now I search "mobs" and maybe it will not crash anymore cause of only 3 pages |
| 20:18 |
IhrFussel |
Still crashes...amount of pages doesn't matter |
| 20:31 |
IhrFussel |
rubenwardy, the monitor app I used was brokjen it seems...now I found a working one and my free RAM was 340 MB and as soon as I opened the cdb menu it went down to 90...that's when the monitor service was closed by the OS |
| 20:32 |
rubenwardy |
I may have reproduced the crash |
| 20:32 |
rubenwardy |
not sure |
| 20:33 |
IhrFussel |
I will now reboot the phone and see how much it has free...maybe it will survive longer |
| 20:34 |
Fixer |
my tablet has about 300 mb free ram before minetest start |
| 20:34 |
rubenwardy |
yeah, I reproduced it again |
| 20:34 |
Fixer |
rubenwardy: i had weird problem with cdb on android that images on first page were ok, but others pages did not have images (once), then it crashed on page 4 or so |
| 20:35 |
rubenwardy |
I have a suspicion that it's related to malformed images |
| 20:36 |
IhrFussel |
I get my phone to 400 MB free now...let's see if it's still not enough |
| 20:36 |
Fixer |
rubenwardy: yet it did happen like once or so, other times they were ok |
| 20:37 |
IhrFussel |
RAM usage goes up at a rate of 10-20 MB per SECOND...I guess it really is lua |
| 20:37 |
rubenwardy |
I think it's a screenshot issue relating to how the libraries work on Android |
| 20:38 |
|
Unarelith joined #minetest-hub |
| 20:38 |
IhrFussel |
It still crashes...so 400 MB RAM is not enough on Android |
| 20:39 |
rubenwardy |
oh, ffs |
| 20:41 |
Fixer |
ofc it is not enough, jordach will say 640 gigabytes should be enough for you phone |
| 20:41 |
Fixer |
on a serious note, I doubt you can squeze it into 400 mb |
| 20:41 |
Fixer |
At start it is something like 300mb in windows |
| 20:41 |
Fixer |
and then it grows |
| 20:45 |
Fixer |
minetest on win7, main screen: 47 mb |
| 20:45 |
Fixer |
rubenwardy: each page of CDB: +5 megabytes of memory (win7) |
| 20:46 |
Fixer |
minetest singleplayer: 223 megabytes of RAM just after start |
| 20:46 |
rubenwardy |
images |
| 20:46 |
Fixer |
not sure if memory released after some time |
| 20:47 |
Fixer |
if releases* |
| 20:51 |
|
scr267a joined #minetest-hub |
| 20:52 |
IhrFussel |
But we are not talking about singleplayer... I think it's a bit much to require 400+ MB RAM JUST for 1 single menu..let me check how much SP actually needs |
| 20:53 |
rubenwardy |
CDB requires 60MB |
| 20:53 |
rubenwardy |
on Linux |
| 20:53 |
rubenwardy |
and SP is around 300 |
| 20:54 |
IhrFussel |
Starting MT eats 30 MB ... SP with just vanilla MTG needs ~ 100 MB |
| 20:54 |
IhrFussel |
It only needs 100 on my phone |
| 20:55 |
IhrFussel |
Of course it depends on the mapblock cache limit/timeout |
| 20:56 |
rubenwardy |
ok, I'm going to try something |
| 20:56 |
IhrFussel |
WOWOWOWOWOW.... |
| 20:56 |
rubenwardy |
although, hmmmm |
| 20:57 |
IhrFussel |
Just tapping "Content" starts to drain the RAM |
| 20:57 |
rubenwardy |
it doesn't on PC, which is weird |
| 20:57 |
IhrFussel |
And the pictures don't load |
| 20:57 |
rubenwardy |
oh, what do you mean "Content"? |
| 20:57 |
rubenwardy |
the tab? |
| 20:57 |
IhrFussel |
Where you select the game |
| 20:57 |
IhrFussel |
Packages* |
| 20:58 |
rubenwardy |
ah yeah, there's a screenshot there |
| 20:59 |
IhrFussel |
Not sure how but suddenly my phone has 520 MB free |
| 20:59 |
rubenwardy |
a background instance of MT was killed, probably |
| 21:00 |
IhrFussel |
From 520 allthe way down to.......1XX ... there must be a HUGE bug in the Android version |
| 21:02 |
IhrFussel |
When I switch the tab WHILE it drains it doesn't go back up |
| 21:03 |
IhrFussel |
I had 420 MB in "Join Game" then "Content" drained it down to 375 and I switched back to "Join Game" ... still 375 MB |
| 21:04 |
IhrFussel |
And every time I switch back to "Content" it drains more without giving it back after |
| 21:04 |
rubenwardy |
well, there's somethings I can do to improve this |
| 21:04 |
rubenwardy |
namely reduce the image size server side |
| 21:05 |
rubenwardy |
but I'd like to wait on that until we fix this issue, because it would make debugging harder |
| 21:05 |
IhrFussel |
So you think it is just the download of all the images? |
| 21:05 |
|
garywhite joined #minetest-hub |
| 21:05 |
rubenwardy |
I think that images are filling up the menu for some weird reason |
| 21:05 |
IhrFussel |
It makes sense if the download pauses when switching the tab |
| 21:06 |
rubenwardy |
*memory |
| 21:07 |
IhrFussel |
But only on Android? |
| 21:07 |
rubenwardy |
apparently so |
| 21:08 |
IhrFussel |
Let me compile a 5.0.0-dev real quick on my pC |
| 21:11 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: no-no, main menu just takes 45 mb or so |
| 21:11 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: singleplayer is 200+ mb |
| 21:11 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: content db page requires 5 mb per page flip |
| 21:12 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: with vrange 240 ofc, with android one can probably be 100mb + |
| 21:13 |
IhrFussel |
Is it normal that it says "target version 0.4.17-dev-blahblah" ? |
| 21:13 |
|
tumeninodes joined #minetest-hub |
| 21:13 |
IhrFussel |
I didn't use a checkout command |
| 21:14 |
IhrFussel |
I only used this https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3837 |
| 21:14 |
* tumeninodes |
is starting to wonder if it might be best to build a version of MT/MTG native for Android |
| 21:14 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: how you monitor the memory use with adb? |
| 21:14 |
Fixer |
with top? |
| 21:14 |
rubenwardy |
he's not |
| 21:14 |
IhrFussel |
No, there are monitoring apps for that |
| 21:14 |
Fixer |
or is there something more user friendly |
| 21:15 |
IhrFussel |
"Resource Monitor Mini" |
| 21:15 |
IhrFussel |
Puts a nice screen overlay |
| 21:16 |
IhrFussel |
Guys is this NOT compiling 5.0.0-dev? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3837 |
| 21:17 |
Fixer |
is it even up to date? |
| 21:18 |
IhrFussel |
It should compile master...always |
| 21:19 |
tumeninodes |
ughhhh... android is such a royal PITA |
| 21:19 |
IhrFussel |
Wait...uhh one sec |
| 21:19 |
Fixer |
nah, it has aids, will not install, also 3 megabyte download for """"mini"""" |
| 21:20 |
tumeninodes |
is it quite possible, that Android has overtaken MS Windows in the #1 sucks spot? for adware, and just being down right specific? |
| 21:20 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome |
| 21:22 |
IhrFussel |
Fixer, you didn't say that you need some ad-free ... there might be another monitor app that doesn't try to make money ... there are plenty of such apps |
| 21:22 |
Fixer |
tumeninodes: android is #1 in spying, like light years ahead |
| 21:22 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome |
| 21:23 |
tumeninodes |
Go Go Google |
| 21:23 |
rubenwardy |
made the commit: https://github.com/minetest/contentdb/commit/4dc2424c3bc41c206861516131425b076fab30bf |
| 21:24 |
IhrFussel |
BTW my issue was the little "cd;" command in Calinou's script...I want to compile 5.0.0-dev in "mt5" dir but that cd jumped back to home and compiled in "minetest" which already had 0.4.17-dev...so solved |
| 21:24 |
tumeninodes |
I say build a separate native android version, put it up for $1 like everyone else and be done with it |
| 21:24 |
rubenwardy |
deploying that will reduce the cost per page from 5MB to something hopefully 9x smaller |
| 21:24 |
IhrFussel |
Is it live right now? |
| 21:26 |
rubenwardy |
no, because it would make fixing this harder |
| 21:28 |
IhrFussel |
Will fixing it require a newer Android build? I'd guess not cause it's a download |
| 21:29 |
|
pauloue joined #minetest-hub |
| 21:29 |
rubenwardy |
that commit can be done independently of Android versions |
| 21:30 |
rubenwardy |
but the proper fix for this bug is likely to be needed in the app itself |
| 21:37 |
IhrFussel |
Uhh |
| 21:37 |
IhrFussel |
Where is the cdb menu in the PC version? |
| 21:37 |
IhrFussel |
I don't see it |
| 21:39 |
rubenwardy |
Content |
| 21:39 |
rubenwardy |
sounds like you still have 0.4.x |
| 21:39 |
rubenwardy |
if you have minetest installed globally, then make sure to build with RUN_IN_PLACE=1 |
| 21:39 |
rubenwardy |
cmake . -DRUN_IN_PLACE=1 |
| 21:42 |
IhrFussel |
The header said 5.0.0-dev but the main menu was still 0.4.X it seems ... I didn't install it I only run it by ./bin/minetest ... but I didn't specify that flag |
| 21:43 |
IhrFussel |
So maybe it grabbed the wrong builtin? |
| 21:53 |
rubenwardy |
<rubenwardy> if you have minetest installed globally, then make sure to build with RUN_IN_PLACE=1 |
| 21:54 |
rubenwardy |
the 5.0.0 engine is using 0.4.17 builtin |
| 21:55 |
garywhite |
tumeninodes: Then it would only be fair that whoever already has Minetest in their Play Store account should get the 5.0 version for free if they were to do that |
| 21:58 |
IhrFussel |
rubenwardy, it's fixed now thanks... when closing the game while you are in the cdb menu an error appears "2018-12-21 22:57:24: ERROR[Main]: Bitte wählen Sie einen Namen!" |
| 21:58 |
IhrFussel |
"Please choose a name" |
| 21:58 |
Krock |
old news |
| 21:59 |
IhrFussel |
memory usage in the PC version is really only 50 or so MB in the cdb menu, so something with Android is faulty |
| 22:07 |
|
FrostRanger joined #minetest-hub |
| 22:15 |
|
pauloue joined #minetest-hub |
| 22:20 |
Calinou |
IhrFussel: I should turn my script into a full-fledged thing people can download and run, this way it could be more robust :P |
| 22:23 |
IhrFussel |
Calinou, your script works 100% flawless if the user didn't have MT installed globally before and wants the newest dev version... things like "don't go to home before cloning" and "specify run in place" are just more advanced things you can't take into account |
| 22:26 |
|
Fixer_ joined #minetest-hub |
| 22:27 |
tumeninodes |
garywhite: Only if they agree to pitch for the game j/k. Android is it's own beast, and best dealt with natively. And it is very hard to find anyone who is specifically skilled with android to do all which is required, without compensation. |
| 22:28 |
tumeninodes |
Most who work with android on a reg basis either make $ from their apps or the ads which get space on their apps |
| 22:29 |
tumeninodes |
android has become the myspace of OSs all glitter and poppy bubbles |
| 23:15 |
Calinou |
IhrFussel: it could install something more integrated (with a shortcut icon, presence in the `PATH` and stuff like that) |
| 23:15 |
Calinou |
that's all doable without requiring any more permissions than currently (they're only required to install dependencies currently) |
| 23:27 |
|
paramat joined #minetest-hub |
| 23:39 |
IhrFussel |
I tested stu's newest apk with no cdb screenshots loaded...still drains memory and crashes |
| 23:40 |
|
Gael-de-Sailly joined #minetest-hub |
| 23:42 |
IhrFussel |
Hi paramat |
| 23:54 |
paramat |
hi, can you open an issue for this? |
| 23:56 |
paramat |
it'll be a blocker |
