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IRC log for #minetest-hub, 2018-12-09

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 VanessaE ~tell tenplus1 https://gitlab.com/VanessaE/plantlife_modpack/commit/08698ecd601c5b0a0fa3aa62be2a17a496169cd4  you may want to apply this to vines or at least patch it in by hand.
00:02 ShadowBot VanessaE: O.K.
00:29 luk3yx rubenwardy: I can't set a repository URL in content.minetest.net, it says "Unknown server error".
00:31 rubenwardy Don't set one then click next
00:31 rubenwardy If you get an error on create, go to your user profile and find the created mod
00:54 luk3yx It works
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02:23 paramat joined #minetest-hub
02:49 paramat joined #minetest-hub
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10:39 nerzhul hey nore :)
10:39 nore hey :)
10:39 nore what's up?
10:40 nerzhul there is some down haha
10:41 nore oh ^^'
10:52 shivajiva Hi nerzhul, when do you propose to give us the proper csm on the road map, the one where it's sent from the server to the client?
10:53 nerzhul i give that after 5.0.0 release and paramat stop to demotivate myself from working on MT by trying to remove the feature.
10:54 shivajiva why did you implement it like this instead of how it was supposed to work?
10:55 shivajiva from my perspective it looked like you were trying to break mt not fix it
10:55 shivajiva and the answer as to the timeline means probably never, right?
10:56 nerzhul because we need this to have feature work properly
10:56 nerzhul break MT with non used code if you don't code mode ? interesting concept
10:56 nerzhul mod*
10:57 nerzhul shivajiva i'm tired to battle for this feature. If you want server side sent features stop make me tired by loosing time to justify why it's designed like this.
10:57 shivajiva blaming paramat for preventing you doing it properly is just dumb, makes you look spoilt from over here
10:57 nerzhul the design is good. You just miss a channel to publish the mod, and it's the most sensible part, it's not the CSM implementation.
10:57 shivajiva paramat is trying to secure it
10:57 nerzhul by publishing removal pr ?
10:57 nerzhul lol
10:58 nerzhul is this the trump way against mexicans ?
10:58 shivajiva don't be crass, I'm trying to workout why we are in stasis with csm
10:59 nerzhul 5.0.0 should have been published 6 month ago, but it was not published due to my afk, it's because nobody take ownership on the release, it's bad for the project.
10:59 Krock because nobody is keen on implementing SSCSM
10:59 nerzhul the SSCSM part is the most code sensible part
10:59 Krock nerzhul: no because the Android build still sucked. We finally need to know whether the error flood is finally fixed
10:59 nerzhul you think it's easy but it's more complex than security SSM itself from rogue mods
11:00 nerzhul Krock yeah i missed that part, you are right
11:00 nerzhul but it's one issue
11:00 shivajiva you refuse to move it forward because you don't like what paramat is doing, that's what you just said, wasn't it?
11:00 Krock now the rotation issue needs fixing. I'd also like to at least fix the HUDs a bit
11:00 nerzhul which can be handled in a feature freeze if there is efforts :)
11:00 nerzhul Krock what's the problem with HUD ?
11:00 nerzhul rotation problems mentioned by pgimeno ?
11:01 Krock nerzhul: the builtin HUDs have a race condition, causing weird effects when altering the flags or replacing them
11:02 Krock and yes, the Z=0 issue
11:02 nerzhul shivajiva: if you prefer to build a wall tp revent migrants (features) from coming instead of taking time to understand the issue and found the good solution
11:02 Krock * Z!=0
11:02 nerzhul okay, for the builtin hud is this due to the id problem ?
11:02 nerzhul i think we can trigger the feature freeze and take time to fix those issues instead of adding new mor features
11:03 nerzhul else the 5.1 will happen in 10 years because there will not be sufficient features to push :p
11:05 nerzhul servers can block the problematic CSM features
11:05 nerzhul (for server owners)
11:06 nerzhul and CSM mods can start to pop with the current features. remember you can start to code a CSM mod client side to see what are the interesting features, and i don't see any interesting CSM mod which can be sent from server in the future
11:06 nerzhul then i don't understand why we want to have SSCSM whereas there are no real SSCSM mod usage in the forum mod store
11:07 shivajiva when we work on features that slow a monolith down, there has to be balance between speed enhancement and features or this thing grinds to a halt. I want balance and things done appropriately in sequence, the feature is a partial implementation of the roadmap feature that has had it's issues so for me it could be removed
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11:07 shivajiva and you just stated no real requirement for it
11:08 nerzhul i think you misunderstand CSM
11:08 nerzhul you cannot offload most of your server work client side due to security
11:08 nerzhul you can offload at least 10 or 15% of the server work in the best case
11:08 nerzhul client must be more secure than server
11:08 shivajiva probably, what was it considered for then?
11:09 nerzhul enhancing client only performance
11:09 nerzhul for example you can do custom chat print
11:09 shivajiva if we can't do SCSM what is it in there for?
11:09 nerzhul you can also enacle the ore detection and enable a feature to show them to players if you want
11:09 shivajiva so players can have pretty text?
11:09 shivajiva or cheat?
11:09 nerzhul yep or have filtering
11:10 nerzhul no cheat possible except if the mod alter the that
11:10 shivajiva wow
11:10 nerzhul chat*
11:10 nerzhul but it's CSM mod owner (or in the future SSCSM mod owner) responsibility
11:10 nerzhul you should really look at the API
11:10 nerzhul i don't have all feature in my head
11:10 shivajiva all this crap for coloured text and ore sniffing seems wrong somehow
11:10 nerzhul but for example you cannot alter the map
11:11 nerzhul and you will never have this possibility
11:11 nerzhul or alter the objects
11:11 nerzhul but you can have some client formspec
11:11 nerzhul for example to have an admin panel for admins to send commands to server through mod channel
11:12 nerzhul world edit panel client side for example
11:12 nerzhul or inventory formspec client side
11:12 nerzhul (it's a good performance improvement if correctly done because inventory formspec in some mods is slow, with CSM no perf penalty)
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11:13 nerzhul i think formspec can be all offloaded client side
11:13 shivajiva that would be a good poc but where is it, this whole thing has impeded progress imo
11:13 nerzhul did you looked at this forum ? https://forum.minetest.net/viewforum.php?f=53
11:14 nerzhul there are some ideas of the possibilities
11:14 nerzhul and as you see there is no exploit
11:14 nerzhul https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=18657
11:15 nerzhul what a nice idea
11:15 nerzhul i didn't thought about this when wrinting API :)
11:15 shivajiva when eyes and ears are not enough we have a csm to tell us the tool is wearing...really
11:16 shivajiva it's what I like to call fluff
11:16 nerzhul lazy players :p
11:17 nerzhul but i didn't thought about that usecase, it's just creative :)
11:17 shivajiva it brings nothing real to the game though :)
11:19 nerzhul sorry but having a notification about breaking why not if you have eye problems :p
11:19 nerzhul with a sound hah
11:20 nerzhul https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=21440 is a nice thing, a very good offload :)
11:20 nerzhul then, no need to worry about this, if you find all those mod useless it prooves that CSM has no problem in your use case
11:21 shivajiva just trying to workout where this is all going and how it helps 5.0 because we have so few devs
11:21 nerzhul you are wrong.
11:21 nerzhul CSM doesn't cover rogue usage
11:21 nerzhul then it's good for 5.0.0
11:22 shivajiva and why you seem to have stopped developing it towards the roadmap feature
11:22 nerzhul i stopped to develop CSM when the API was mature
11:22 shivajiva I'm probably not the only one wondering
11:22 nerzhul yeah we don't have SSCSM but we can do that in a future release
11:22 nerzhul remember MT 0.4.0 ?
11:22 shivajiva nope
11:22 nerzhul many features are missing and the community was not like today.
11:23 nerzhul there was 30% of the current API in SSM
11:23 nerzhul now just release that fucking 5.0.0 and go ahead with 5.1 with waited features
11:24 nerzhul if nobody from server moders find CSM useful, then SSCSM is not useful for them => no need to worry about the SSCSM feature
11:24 nerzhul in development a program is never finished
11:24 nerzhul ls and grep commands have patches, 10 years after the last commit,
11:25 shivajiva okay I have my answer, thank you
11:26 nerzhul i will take time in 5.1 series to : SSCSM + refactor the code to enhance the code quality and coverage
11:27 nerzhul but in 5.1
11:27 nerzhul now i need to take time to finish the latest refactor PR i want to have in 5.0.0 and update the changelog
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11:54 Fixer (20 years later)
11:55 Fixer when nerzhul kid goes to uni minetest finally releases 5.0
11:55 Fixer 's
11:55 Fixer *please don't rush it anyway, polish it
11:55 * Fixer dives out
11:59 nerzhul 6 months of polishing
11:59 nerzhul since last release date...
11:59 nerzhul or 8
11:59 Shara Server owners in general have seemed really unhappy with CSM... server owners being the ones most affected by it. Yet server owners get shot down over and over when they say they are unhappy with the thing.
11:59 * Shara sighs
12:00 nerzhul Shara server owners are never happy but it's like french people :p
12:00 Shara nerzhul: as you like to tell other people, you're wrong. There's plenty I am very happy about. CSm is not a thing I am happy with.
12:01 Shara You did huge damage to the MT community with this thing.
12:01 Shara Blaming paramat for you not finishing it is quite pathetic.
12:01 Fixer eh, problem with cheaters?
12:02 Shara Fixer: problem about control.
12:02 Fixer ah
12:02 Shara My server, should be my rules yes?
12:02 Shara Lots of servers have a rule... found using CSM? Ban.
12:02 Shara This is how fed up people are.
12:03 Shara And it's sad, because there are aq couple of okay mods
12:03 Shara a*
12:03 Shara But really, coloured text and sound alerts... not really seeing that it was worth so much dev time.
12:03 Shara Was it worth how upset and angry it made so many people?
12:03 Shara It could have been a good thing, but it has been handled poorly
12:04 Krock but I like my colored names
12:05 Shara Krock: Why could that not have just been something built into options for clients then?
12:05 Krock in the engine or as SSM?
12:06 Shara Could it not have been done in the engine to add it as a setting for players?
12:06 Shara If coloured names is so important...
12:06 Krock someone else might want a PM "ding"
12:06 Fixer Shara: are there rogue CSM mods out there?
12:07 Shara Fixer: no idea anymore.
12:07 Shara I am fairly sure there were item duping bugs on one of my servers shortly after CSM was added, and no, it could not have been due tot he WE issue.
12:07 Shara But hard to prove such things
12:07 Shara And I prefer not to work off guesses
12:08 Krock list[player:MyPlayerName;hand;1,1;1,1]  rogue CSM done
12:08 Shara Either way - it has caused a lot of annoyance
12:11 Shara What I would love is a meaningful way to offload things to clients, that is under my control. I thought that was the end goal, but based on what nerzhul has said, I'm clearly mistaken, and the goal was coloured text and alert sounds all along.
12:12 Krock I also expected SSCSMs to be a thing earlier but yet it did not happen :/
12:12 Shara Well, over a year and no progress, yet paramat get slammed for calling this out
12:13 Shara gets*
12:13 Shara And it seems more and more like CSM devs never planned to do SSCSM
12:13 Krock mainly because red-001_ and a few other people lost interest in developing it
12:13 Krock also that, yes.
12:14 Shara You can't expect server owners to be okay with that kind of break in trust
12:14 Krock even if SSCSMs were a thing, copying the mod loading function from server to client would evil users to "cheat" anyway
12:15 Krock *users allow to
12:15 Shara Whole thing never should have been started then really.
12:15 Shara Big features like this... they should have a clear plan before they are done, and the plan should actually be followed.
12:15 ANAND How do other games achieve this then, while avoiding the cheating portion of it?
12:17 Shara ANAND: probably better planning and more thought into what should or should not be client controlled.
12:17 nerzhul ANAND just look at World of Warcraft
12:17 nerzhul they permit cheat until 1.10.0 version in vanilla because they permit to cast spell in mods :p
12:17 nerzhul then you can program your whole dps cycle :p
12:18 ANAND True, Shara.
12:18 Shara I'm fine with the client being able to set things like text font/colour/size and so on... that's actually good for accessability issues
12:18 nerzhul many programs doesn't have a SSCSM because there is no sense to have it
12:18 nerzhul they are not as modular as MT is
12:18 nerzhul they are just game in a finished state
12:18 ANAND Then maybe we could adapt WoW's anti-cheat measures, nerzhul?
12:18 Shara nerzhul: so now you say SSCSM is pointless?
12:18 nerzhul ANAND the wow warden ?
12:19 ANAND Idk what WoW is, I'm just asking :)
12:19 nerzhul Shara, i say if i look at the forum CSM mods they are useful but not for a global usage, for some users only
12:20 nerzhul then i don't think SSCSM is useful there. If a user want to customize its chat it's for him, i don't see why a server owner should own this and do what he wants
12:20 Shara So CSm was implemented with zero plan of following the actual plan
12:20 nerzhul user experience in modded games is done by users themselves, not the game owners, see skyrim, WoW and others
12:20 nerzhul CSM was implemented to work without distribution channel
12:20 nerzhul just like the broken modstore (before ruben rewrite it)
12:21 nerzhul in a single player experience CSM is totally useful
12:21 Shara Ability to customise text colours feels like a thing that should actually be int he engine to me.
12:21 nerzhul Shara it's in the engine
12:21 Shara You miss the point. Players should not need mods for this
12:21 nerzhul you can just alter the string, if you set colors it show colors
12:21 nerzhul okay let me show you example of what is a very nice modding community (outside MT)
12:22 nerzhul https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons
12:22 Shara I don't care about WoW
12:22 Shara MT is nothing like WoW
12:22 nerzhul don't look at WoW
12:22 nerzhul look at the modding part
12:22 nerzhul don't be mind blocked
12:22 Shara I am not "mind blocked"
12:22 nerzhul look at the wow community possibilities, it's globally UI, we don't care about wow there
12:22 nerzhul we care about the modding
12:23 Shara CSM has not produced anything useful enough to justify the mess and division within the community that it has caused
12:23 ANAND Sadly, WoW seems to be closed source. No point in looking at WoW then
12:23 nerzhul enough to you
12:23 nerzhul wow is closed source but modding API is free
12:23 nerzhul and mod owners can suggest modifications to blizzard on their forums
12:23 Shara ANAND: exactly.. kind of hate nerzhul using such things as examples... because they are not too applicable. not even similar kind of game
12:24 nerzhul i don't see why adding UI things, customizing chat and handling events is not applicable to mt
12:24 nerzhul we have UI, chat and events.
12:24 Calinou ANAND: not willing to look at good ideas in proprietary software seems like a bad idea to me
12:24 Calinou judge the idea, not the author
12:24 Shara Calinou: willing to look, but I find WoW not a good example
12:25 ANAND Calinou: I was wanting to look at how it was actually implemented
12:25 ANAND the mod-sending, that is
12:25 nerzhul WoW API is just Lua like MT
12:25 nerzhul and triggers events like MT
12:25 Calinou anyway, server-provided client-side code isn't exclusive to WoW :)
12:25 nerzhul and you can request engine like MT.
12:25 Shara In terms of UI, we are kind of stuck with the fun of formspecs, so there are some serious imits :)
12:25 Calinou (same for client-provided client-side code, but it's rarer if you only include Turing-complete languages)
12:25 nerzhul wow hasn't server provided mods
12:25 nerzhul they are packaged with the games
12:25 nerzhul the game versions*
12:26 Shara What I want to see is people actually making mods for MT that justify CSM
12:26 nerzhul it's why wow is the best example because they do the same things as us, yeah the gameplay isn't same, but the implementation is totally identical (outside of the game functionalities themselves)
12:27 nerzhul Shara, when SSM modding api appears you told wow, why extend the game, and make it generic ?
12:27 Shara nerzhul: maybe you should prove us wrong by making some really nice CSM mods then
12:27 nerzhul Shara i'm not a modder i'm a coredev
12:27 nerzhul i provide API
12:27 nerzhul just be creative
12:27 nerzhul also the forum has better examples than me
12:27 nerzhul as some non blocked users take the CSM API and do something with it
12:28 Shara The forum doesn't have much at all
12:28 nerzhul because it's not really releases as 5.0.0 isn't done ,
12:28 nerzhul ?
12:28 nerzhul released*
12:28 Shara Is it not in current stable?
12:28 nerzhul the 0.4.17 API has less features than 5.0 if i remember
12:29 ANAND Here's a valid use-case for SSCSM: #7557. It should've been client-side, ideally. Without SSCSM entering the scene anytime soon, I reckoned this could at least go to the server-side API. It might be a bit laggier than (SS)CSM, but at least mods could use the functionality...
12:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7557 -- Expose player FOV to Lua API by ClobberXD
12:29 nerzhul in fact 5.0.0 adds security only features on CSM, except the player privilege API , the inventory callbacks, the locale and the mod communication with server
12:30 nerzhul (and between CSM clients)
12:30 nerzhul https://dev.minetest.net/Changelog#0.4.16_.E2.86.92_5.0.0_.28Not_yet_released.29
12:30 ANAND And btw, what are mod channels?
12:30 Shara I give up anyway. Hopefully you prove me wrong and CSm gets huge and good use.
12:30 nerzhul changelog stopping at 15 aug is very very use
12:30 nerzhul ANAND: it permits CSM mods to talk to SSM mods or to other CSM users
12:31 Shara EIther way - you've handled it really poorly. And stop blaming paramat for you not doing SSCSM
12:31 ANAND Oh ok
12:31 nerzhul imagine you trigger a CSM event: "receive chat message from chuck"
12:31 nerzhul you can register a mod channel an push the event
12:31 nerzhul if SSM mod or other CSM clients are registered in the channel, they will receive the event and can handle it to do something
12:31 nerzhul you can serialize lua data to push on a such channel
12:32 ANAND Cool
12:32 ANAND Can this be extended to become the foundation for mod-sending?
12:32 nerzhul it's a controversial MT usecase, but you can imagine you have oredetect mod enable, when you find diamond or gold it push the event on the mod channel, other users with same mod receive the event and notify the current user that diamond ore was found a x,y,z
12:32 nerzhul no because it's just communication channels for data not code
12:33 nerzhul CSM mod sending should either use media API or another API
12:33 nerzhul because the problem is how to package a mod
12:33 nerzhul it's not just a media list
12:34 nerzhul in WOW you have also mod channels, if i have gatherer mod (which register all resources found, herbs, ore, fish...) and another user has it in the same channel both mods share their data and complete the each other to have a more compelte db
12:34 nerzhul in pvp you have player position sharing with such mods
12:35 ANAND Interesting possibilities
12:35 nerzhul i also get a mod which register the loot chance on each mob and complete with other players permitting to have more accurate percents
12:35 nerzhul because you have more stats :)
12:36 nerzhul in SSM and CSM case it's the best way that a SSM mod and CSM mod users can use to share data
12:36 ANAND This can be put to good use when combined with SSCSMs. But I assume mod channels isn't complete yet?
12:36 nerzhul imagine weather API, SSM push a weather lua event and you client just do the draw (we don't have a such api yet)
12:36 nerzhul mod channel is completei n master
12:37 ANAND Oh nice
12:37 nerzhul see https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/client_lua_api.txt#L780
12:38 nerzhul https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/mod_channels.png
12:38 nerzhul you have both possibilities on the graph, CSM communication only or SSM & CSM mod communication
12:39 nerzhul and you have examples in minimal + CSM experimental mod
12:40 ANAND Oh I didn't know there was an example
12:40 nerzhul when i write an API i push it to experimental or CSM preview depending on the scope
12:40 nerzhul other coredev generally do this
12:40 nerzhul we have an API test in experimental
12:41 nerzhul minimal/experimental is the SSM part preview is CSM part, to be more clear :p
12:41 ANAND Yes, I figured
12:42 nerzhul it's really useful and provide real examples heh
12:49 ANAND Would it be possible to package code as serialized text, along with metadata that the client can use to re-create the mod folder?
12:50 nerzhul it's the idea but it's not as easy
12:50 nerzhul but i got an idea about it
12:50 nerzhul just no time to code it and it's a little bit sensible
12:50 nerzhul because you mustn't do rogue things on client
12:50 ANAND True
12:51 nerzhul evade the sandbox, evade the FS, break FS, etc
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13:29 nerzhul interesting
13:29 nerzhul another point to make MT far from MC :p
13:29 nerzhul this is a good thing for MC except it's js :p
13:29 Fixer another point to implement z-sorting
13:37 Fixer and forget about minecraft
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13:43 shivajiva this time next year we will have z-sorting....isn't that how it goes Fixer
13:46 shivajiva this time next year we will be happy...
13:46 shivajiva this time next year we will be rich...
13:52 rubenwardy Client-side scripting is aimed for client side prediction and audiovisual enhancements
13:52 rubenwardy It wasn't intended for client provided mods
13:53 rubenwardy Client side scripting could add proper prediction to mine carts, to make them follow the tracks better without lots of packet
13:53 rubenwardy Or fancy canvas rendering in formspecs
13:53 rubenwardy Where the data transfer is too high
13:53 rubenwardy Fancy colored text and the like are not part of the original CSS plans
13:53 rubenwardy And are a bastardisation
13:54 rubenwardy Css should be about increasing the modding possibility of mods and games
13:55 * Krock wonders why he can walk onto 1m high nodes without jumping
13:55 rubenwardy Not about players hacking servers and customising their gameplay
13:55 * Krock realizes that there's  autojump = true in his config
13:55 rubenwardy Players shouldn't decide game play, the server owner should
13:55 rubenwardy Colored names and such features should be in the engine
13:56 rubenwardy And spscs or whatever not happening isn't paramat's fault
14:04 shivajiva rubenwardy: thanks for that clarity, it's always good to understand what things are supposed to be for reference
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15:56 nerzhul rubenwardy i let you port all that in 5.1 :D
15:56 nerzhul as i said color chat is already in engine
15:56 nerzhul it use all engine API
15:56 nerzhul but the custom itself is done by mod
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16:13 shivajiva I really don't understand why you are deriving pleasure from this situation nerzhul, it's not amusing me in the slightest. The intimation is you will sit back and watch ruben port it instead of helping or did I misunderstand?
16:15 nerzhul where did you see i take pleasure ?
16:16 nerzhul i lost my time to battle for this feature
16:16 shivajiva ‎[15:56:19] ‎<‎nerzhul‎>‎ rubenwardy i let you port all that in 5.1 :D
16:16 shivajiva seems like a piss take to me
16:16 nerzhul he defined the roadmap it seems :D
16:17 rubenwardy !dev Client_side_scripting
16:17 MinetestBot No such page.
16:17 rubenwardy !dev client-side_scripting
16:17 MinetestBot No such page.
16:17 rubenwardy Whatever
16:18 rubenwardy The concept of CSS was already planned and decided by hmmmm, c55, and various other devs
16:18 nerzhul then go
16:18 rubenwardy When I supported CSM, that's what I thought you were working on
16:18 nerzhul why in 8 months of afk nobody started this ? i'm returning back to dev and except complain like 8 month ago i don't see anything new
16:19 nerzhul red-001 and me have coded all the CSM basis, now add the new api you need
16:19 nerzhul you don't need SSCSM to make CSM talk to irrlicht
16:20 shivajiva I was waiting for you to return and provide some understanding as to where this is going, so it seems timely to me
16:21 nerzhul and if i don't return what happend to the project ?
16:23 shivajiva after some time it would be decided you had abandoned your post and the devs would make moves to factor if it is worth pursuing imo
16:23 nerzhul hundreds hour of develop abandonned because nobody understand the code ?
16:23 nerzhul we are 10 core dev
16:23 nerzhul CSM is coded in same API way as SSM
16:23 nerzhul if there is a problem it seems nobody understand mt engine
16:23 Krock Freezer in technic is incoming. Will merge https://github.com/minetest-mods/technic/pull/457 in 10 minutes
16:24 Krock ^ nore, perhaps you're interested in having a quick look into this
16:26 shivajiva I don't have a problem admitting I don't understand the mt engine but your stance is we are idiots for not understanding, that is bound to rub the wrong way isn't it
16:36 Krock merging...
16:51 nerzhul no i never said that
16:51 nerzhul what i like in MT community: extremism, no middle
16:51 Shara Has seemed the implication multiple times to me.
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16:57 nerzhul there is no implication in what i say it's relatively clear :)
16:59 Krock well, sometimes it might sound different than what you actually mean simply on how the sentences are formulated
16:59 Shara ^
17:00 Krock it's hard to get around this, especially when parties with non-native English speakers are involved
17:01 Shara The jumps between blaming paramat and then saying SSCSM isn't needed anyway aren't helping.
17:01 nerzhul oh it's just a fact, look at GH :)
17:01 nerzhul Krock i'm non native too heh :p
17:02 Krock nerzhul: ikr, that's mainly why I mentioned it
17:03 Gael-de-Sailly joined #minetest-hub
17:03 Krock To my part: SSCSM IS needed to complete the CSM API we've got now. However, server leaks/exploits will remain even if the client modding is entirely controlled by the server. Nobody can control the sanity of clients
17:04 Shara Krock: sure, but it's about a lot more than exploits. I think every serious server owner realises some things cannot be prevented
17:05 Krock throwing the CSM part we've got right now out of the window is nonsense and wasted dev time. Restrictions are however fine, allowing to make use of the feature later on when it's mature enough
17:05 Shara I'd like to see it finished rather than thrown out.
17:05 Krock same
17:05 Shara But there seems no intention to finish it, and what we currently have isn't good.
17:29 Krock just to execute Lua code locally would be quite easy. add the files to the server media, download from client, collect *.lua files in a list, execute the lua files. The issue is that whole mods have to be sent (multiple files, dependency handling perhaps too)
17:30 Krock former issue could be done by catching all "dofile" or "loadfile" calls to rewrite the actual file path
17:31 Krock mmh.. could write a POC somewhen to check whether this would actually work
17:31 Krock also a safe Lua environment would be needed to not crash the client on CSM error
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17:41 nerzhul Krock it's already the case
17:41 nerzhul it just disconnect client from server currently
17:42 nerzhul Shara we always want finished product, but MT SSM was never finished, you see features currently while it was released in 0.4.0
17:42 nerzhul Krock your case works for single file mod
17:42 nerzhul but i don't want just single file mod
17:43 Shara nerzhul:  I'm awar eof changes for 5.0 as well. I know work has been done.
17:44 Shara It's coming releases I worry about
17:46 Krock nerzhul: thus it would be needed to overwrite "dofile" and "loadfile" in order to load more mod files (which are inside the media directory)
17:46 Krock however, that will result in strange error tracebacks
17:47 Krock and mod storage? uhm.. maybe it's wrong to load them into media
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18:11 nerzhul Krock exactly it's why i don't used the media cache for that
18:11 nerzhul it's not adapted to the SSCSM
18:11 nerzhul else it would be finished since ages :p
18:13 Krock well so, let's use ./cache/sscsm/<modname>
18:18 nerzhul we push a filepath in the mediacache ? i can't remember, and you need to handle subfolder etc :)
18:24 Krock just one depth since the required media is still sent as usual
18:24 Krock and mod data is saved somewhere else anyway
18:59 nerzhul then we can do it like this adding file path and a limitation to have all lua file in the same folder
19:00 nerzhul not sure everything works as intended, i don't remember how it's proessed client side
19:00 nerzhul but it's a breaking release
19:00 nerzhul and also how are them registered to server media list ?
19:10 Krock fetch it like regular media, then filter them out locally client-side to save them in the appropriate place
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19:33 rubenwardy I'm still in favour of installing from cdb instead
19:34 Krock why not both?
19:36 rubenwardy Because security
19:37 rubenwardy It's the easiest way to verify that "carts" was written by "Krock" and now "TotallySafeUser"
19:37 rubenwardy *not
19:38 rubenwardy And gives you license verification for free
19:38 rubenwardy For development, you can just provide the mod directly
19:39 Krock hmm.. so you don't want SSCSMs or did we switch the topic at some point?
19:39 rubenwardy Actually, the issue with this is preventing user modifications so it's not an end all
19:43 rubenwardy I think sscsm is a terrible idea for security, given our lack of competent developers and history of bugs
19:43 rubenwardy I'd be more supportive if you could cryptographically sign mods with sscsm, so you know the author
19:51 Krock mhm yes
20:05 Jordach joined #minetest-hub
20:06 tenplus1 joined #minetest-hub
20:06 tenplus1 hi folks :)
20:06 tenplus1 hi Krock:
20:06 Fixer "Rapunzel is pregnant" interesting
20:06 tenplus1 hey fixer :P
20:06 tumeninodes o/
20:07 tenplus1 o/ tumeni
20:07 Fixer hihih
20:07 tenplus1 how's all tonight ?
20:07 tumeninodes ... complacent
20:07 tenplus1 is that good or bad ?
20:07 tumeninodes can go either way :)
20:08 tenplus1 lolol
20:08 tumeninodes meanwhile, I'm working on a self-titled mod, to do something with the plethora of textures I've had laying around... trying to clean up a bit
20:09 tenplus1 ooh, look forward to seeing it when done :P
20:11 tumeninodes this is just the very edge of a bottomless void https://imgur.com/a/hSAfWxO
20:11 tumeninodes several hundred to go
20:12 tenplus1 VanessaE: added that addition to vines mod :)
20:12 tumeninodes that way, people can pick n choose. It will possibly be split up over several diff folders
20:13 tenplus1 looks interesting :))
20:13 tenplus1 Mobs Redo API updated, fixed nil entity check
20:13 tumeninodes well..., it will clean out some much needed HD space
20:13 tenplus1 get it all on git :PP
20:14 tumeninodes so you've been busy
20:14 tenplus1 few mod additions, bug fixes, moved wine's blue agave to nodetimers instead of abm
20:15 Krock hi tenplus1
20:15 tenplus1 o///
20:16 tumeninodes nice. there should be as much moved away from abm as possible across the MT/MTG universe
20:16 tenplus1 slow but sure :)
20:16 tenplus1 although it replaces the abm's with lbm's to start all those nodetimers :D but those rune once only
20:17 tumeninodes I'm not one to talk though
20:18 tenplus1 was gonna do the same for hoppers, but I have 1 abm running all 3 hoppers and item suction :D
20:21 * tumeninodes has still never even used a hopper
20:22 Jordach great for putting my recently harvested hops itno
20:22 tenplus1 lol, we need some sort of command block to identify items sucked into a hopper so it can be used for adventure maps... I think basic_machines has such a thing
20:22 tenplus1 hi Jordach :P
20:22 shivajiva Hi tenplus1:P
20:23 tenplus1 hey shiva, how's you ?
20:23 shivajiva not bad thanks :)
20:23 tenplus1 le kewl :)
20:23 shivajiva where you been Krock misses you ;)
20:24 Jordach i have done nothing but smash for three days
20:24 tenplus1 doing rl stuff :) and trying to figure out why server keeps restarting
20:24 shivajiva he keeps saying hi to you but you aint here
20:24 Jordach tenplus1, is it JIT running out of memory
20:24 Jordach (because it certainly sounds like it)
20:24 tenplus1 nah, something causing actual server to reset
20:24 tenplus1 *server = physical machine
20:24 Jordach uh
20:25 tenplus1 did mobo testing, drive testing, psu testing,memory testing
20:25 rud0lf cleaning lady unplugging server to plug vacuum cleaner in?
20:25 tenplus1 checking ups and will clear logs and check them if it happens again
20:25 tenplus1 lol, hope not
20:25 Jordach rip
20:25 tumeninodes hahaha, someone unplugging the server to use a hair dryer or something would be classic
20:26 tenplus1 shinji owns server so hopeit's not someone who lives there doing just that
20:26 Jordach why are you putting it in the bathroom then :thinking:
20:26 tumeninodes xD
20:26 tumeninodes better question... why not?
20:26 tenplus1 just did modupdate tho so we;re running newer apis
20:28 tumeninodes time to check those energy saver settings and the power unit
20:28 tenplus1 those are set to turn off monitor only, not system... and UPS only shuts everything down when it's at 5% power
20:29 tenplus1 we'll clear logs and check 'em if it happens again, should give some insight
20:29 tumeninodes I had a unit once kept doing weird things, to find out there was a spider causing it all
20:29 tenplus1 better not be... I'll fly over there and stomp on it myself if it is
20:29 rud0lf tumeninodes: it tried to access web?
20:29 tumeninodes haaaaaaahahaha
20:29 tenplus1 hi rud0lf
20:30 rud0lf hi tenplus1
20:30 shivajiva bios updates to mitigate Intel cpu flaws applied?
20:30 tumeninodes rud0lf with your jokes so bright
20:30 tenplus1 it's an AMD mobo and CPU :)
20:30 rud0lf can't tell if a sarcasm or not
20:30 tumeninodes an applaus
20:30 rud0lf ah
20:31 tumeninodes seasonal reference
20:31 tumeninodes it was a brilliant joke
20:31 tenplus1 also applied the SPI=off switch to stop the meltdown/spectre fixses slowing down my machines :)
20:31 * Jordach releases a meltdown mod for MT
20:31 Jordach as a joke and experiment
20:31 tumeninodes saweet
20:32 shivajiva don't eat saws man
20:32 tumeninodes and just a touch of sadism
20:33 tumeninodes :P
20:33 shivajiva heh tumeninodes has a sadistic touch
20:34 tumeninodes just a  little
20:34 tenplus1 :P
20:36 * tumeninodes needs to go look at all my food, to decide there is nothing to eat, so I can order out
20:36 Jordach i got pringles and sour cream dip
20:37 * tenplus1 steals one
20:37 * tumeninodes graps a pringle and heads to the cupboards
20:38 FrostRanger joined #minetest-hub
20:42 Jordach recently i've gotten awesome at decoding the errors from gcc++
20:42 Calinou Clang is known for its more informative error messages, try it out
20:43 tenplus1 yay... we got errors for NaN out of range for entities in 5.0 ???
20:45 Jordach but that means setting up clang
20:52 Gael-de-Sailly joined #minetest-hub
20:52 tenplus1 hi gael
20:52 Gael-de-Sailly Hi 11 :)
20:52 tenplus1 o//
20:54 IhrFussel joined #minetest-hub
20:54 tenplus1 hi fussel
21:07 IhrFussel I wanna straight out say that servers which make you obtain certain items to create a permanent account are utterly stupid
21:07 IhrFussel And hi tenplus1
21:07 paramat joined #minetest-hub
21:08 tenplus1 wont that stop fake players massing and empty accounts ?
21:08 IhrFussel It may be good for the server owner but not for lots of players who simply cannot find those items
21:09 tenplus1 maybe adding a player chest or free store toget the item ??
21:09 IhrFussel And then after an hour or so of searching you lose connections -> SOL
21:10 IhrFussel If a server uses such a system it should be an item that can be easily obtained, but I dislike such "need to have something to stay" really
21:11 tenplus1 suppose it stops bot players and fake players gathering on server, but yeah, has to be made a lot easier
21:11 IhrFussel If the server uses a hunger mod it adds a time limit unless you find some food
21:12 IhrFussel Well you could of course go all the way back to where you were before starving but that is just tedious
21:13 IhrFussel I don't believe that there are actual "bot players" ... that is just server owners who don't know better who call them that
21:13 tenplus1 public farms could make items you need to stay... so long as the other players replant
21:14 IhrFussel The server I tried had no public farm...or it was hidden which is no good idea
21:14 tenplus1 bah!
21:14 tenplus1 how about a player chest that gives basic items once only
21:14 tenplus1 when they open chest and obtain items they become permanent players
21:14 tenplus1 that could be easily done
21:15 tumeninodes tbh, if a player cannot be bothered to put in the effort to obtain said items, is prob not a player one would desire on their server
21:15 tenplus1 very true
21:15 tumeninodes usually it is the ones who don;t like to put any effort in, are the ones who will eventually cause problems because that is how they have fun
21:16 tenplus1 the one's who beg for items and complain theyh died :PPP
21:16 IhrFussel No, in this case it was a certain ore that could be found easily but if you're not lucky it will be too late
21:16 tumeninodes then set them to regenerate
21:16 tumeninodes every now and then
21:16 tumeninodes then it will never be "too late"
21:17 tumeninodes use the same code (or similar) that apples use now
21:17 IhrFussel It's not my server
21:17 tumeninodes then why are you worried about it ? :P
21:17 tenplus1 lol
21:18 IhrFussel Cause I voice my opinion without bashing the server cause I don't mention the name
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21:18 tenplus1 hi clavi
21:18 IhrFussel It was the first server I visited that had such a system and I just think it is awful and there are better ways surely
21:19 tumeninodes which is why you eventually opened your own... Everyone has their own preferences. While you may not like their setup, they do, and they may not like yours... such is life
21:19 tenplus1 implementation is usually rough, takes a little time to get things working well :D
21:20 tumeninodes the important bit..., it to have those options available, which people can use to set things up the way they like
21:20 tumeninodes it>is
21:21 IhrFussel tumeninodes, a "fair" survival server (most of you know I'm all for fairness here haha) would help you on your first steps instead of requiring something from you before you even considered a "real player"
21:21 tumeninodes but that is all up to personal taste and opinions
21:21 tenplus1 some signs posted at spawn you have to read to figure out how to be perma player... e.g.  "go find button on red path and push"... blah!
21:22 tenplus1 or... "dig down 200 blocks and pray you sdont hit lava"
21:22 IhrFussel A server should at least give you the option to get some help ... options are almost never a bad thing
21:22 tenplus1 ooh just read logs, CSM seems to be a tough issue...
21:22 tumeninodes to state that the way someone else prefers to be set up as "stupid" is quite shallow
21:22 tenplus1 are we anywhere near a switch to disable completely on servers ????
21:23 tumeninodes CSM has been a tough issue since inception :P
21:23 tenplus1 very true, me no likey... if anyone uses it on Xanadu we ban now
21:24 tumeninodes it's certainly not an overnight feature to implement or get right
21:24 IhrFussel No it is my opinion and it should be obvious that I meant it as opinion...don't require people to always add "in my opinion" at the beginning oof their opinions
21:24 tenplus1 I want an OFF switch though to disable completely
21:24 IhrFussel of*
21:25 tumeninodes I know it's your opinion... but sometimes you come off as putting others down for their opinions
21:25 * tenplus1 wants more donut flavours in-game... just my opinion :)
21:25 IhrFussel Nah, also I don't insult or bash a person, it's just a type of gameplay that I dislike in this case
21:26 tumeninodes right, which is why you provide end users your own version... which is great
21:26 * tumeninodes really like donuts
21:27 tenplus1 has normal sugar donut, choccy donut and strawberry so far in farming redo... may add grape :)
21:27 * tenplus1 likes jelly
21:27 tumeninodes needs apple-cider donuts
21:27 paramat yes in 5.0.0 a server can force clients to not load client-provided CSM
21:27 tenplus1 ones that reverse player controls and has you staggering around
21:27 tumeninodes seeing as we have apples
21:27 tenplus1 paramat: thank GOD for that...
21:28 tenplus1 wine mod has apple cider :PP yum
21:28 IhrFussel Which can be easily reverted in the source by simply changing a c++ flag AFAIK
21:28 Shara Hi tenplus1. Couldn't echo those thoughts more
21:28 tenplus1 hi shara, how be you ?
21:28 paramat it can be hacked around easily but, hacking can do anything
21:28 shivajiva IhrFussel: you have stated you are a better server owner than the rest of us because you are somehow more reasonable, that will take a while to forget xD
21:28 Shara I be sleepy
21:28 tenplus1 me too, off to bed shortly
21:28 tumeninodes everytie someone plugs a hacking hole... another hole pops up
21:28 tumeninodes m
21:29 Shara Spare a doughnut before you go?
21:29 tenplus1 how about we disable CSM entirely and only have SSM
21:29 IhrFussel I didn't talk about being a better server owner now, but to be fair is an important thing that not every server owner seems to agree with which IS definitely a shame
21:29 * tenplus1 shares custard filled donut with carrot sprinkles
21:29 paramat eheh ... see my PR
21:29 tumeninodes ssshhhhhh
21:29 * Shara keeps mouth shut and goes back to some other things :)
21:30 tenplus1 lol
21:30 Shara Actually... shut apart from doughnut noms :)
21:30 Shara It must open to insert food :)
21:30 tenplus1 we had player on Xanadu with rainbow text, gave everyone a headache, asked to remove, they liked it, banned!
21:30 IhrFussel By "fair" I mean a lot of things... starting with "punish people for things that were never disclosed as forbidden to them" and maybe ends at "banning people for fun"
21:30 tumeninodes best hing to have available in mettings where people can share their thoughts.... noms
21:31 shivajiva if you look at the reactions you got it should seem clear that that was how it was taken unfortunately
21:31 tenplus1 oh yes,food must be available in meetings
21:31 Shara CSM should never have been allowed to affect other player's experience on the server.
21:31 tenplus1 and the length of time it took to bullet proof mods so they couldnt gain access with csm... that was annoying
21:31 IhrFussel shivajiva, it is not my fault when people misunderstand me...then they can ask me again for more details
21:32 shivajiva so you gained the controversial tag :)
21:32 tenplus1 ooh, you got a controversial award... congrats!
21:32 * tumeninodes had "controversial" stamped on his head at birth
21:32 tenplus1 lol
21:32 IhrFussel Controversial for not applying the "im god of my server" attitude..I'm honored
21:33 * tenplus1 got the sexiest man in minetest award... was honored
21:33 tumeninodes but, if you have your own server, and provide end users with what you feel is a better and more fair experience..., then why worry about what others are doing? seems quite unproductive
21:34 Shara I spent some time today trying to get a player NOT to call me god.
21:34 tumeninodes wait... what??? 0_o
21:34 Jordach paramat, almost done re-porting my set_sky stuff
21:34 shivajiva see you have started that again and nobody here really thinks that, you confuse 'I pay for this so I run it my way' for god complex for all the server owners I see here
21:34 tenplus1 lol, have you met shinji :)
21:34 tenplus1 ehehehe
21:34 shivajiva not here LOL
21:34 Jordach i mean, i prefer, just dont break the server OS and you're fine
21:35 tumeninodes ^
21:35 tenplus1 and on that note I sleep now, gotta recharge mah batteries
21:35 tenplus1 nite all o///////
21:35 shivajiva nite
21:35 Fixer \\\\\\\\\o
21:35 tumeninodes nites
21:35 tenplus1 left #minetest-hub
21:35 shivajiva that was a slow exit for tenplus, he's out of practice xD
21:35 tumeninodes I have to check on my foods bfore they burn
21:35 tumeninodes haha
21:37 IhrFussel shivajiva, the "god complex" is when you treat players the way you want no matter how reasonable it is, you just do it cause you think you are right and the bad player is wrong
21:38 IhrFussel That is exactly what god compelx is
21:38 IhrFussel complex*
21:38 shivajiva and nobody here that runs a server behaves in that way unless you can show me I'm wrong?
21:39 paramat Fixer mind your language please
21:39 IhrFussel I'm not such an asshole that I need to call out servers ... I have examples of it being real on some servers (not yours, not Shara's btw)
21:41 IhrFussel But that wasn't even the topic now... I simply voiced my personal opinion about some type of gameplay that I think is really bad
21:41 tumeninodes but servers like that, good end users do not stay with anyway... they move onto others, which are better and more fair. SOme end users like the abuse too though
21:42 IhrFussel The probem is often not the server owner themselves... but the staff they trust blindly
21:42 IhrFussel problem*
21:42 Fixer hah, stuff can be sooo bad
21:42 tumeninodes yeh, I've seen that happen... but it is usually among younger people
21:43 Fixer also, teens hosting servers is often path to disaster
21:43 tumeninodes ^
21:43 shivajiva well if we are talking about servers run by people that have yet to learn proper people skills we must be talking about young people, the established servers are run by more mature individuals
21:43 tumeninodes exactly
21:43 shivajiva ones that realise it's 50 shades of grey not black and white
21:43 tumeninodes and those are the ones which last and run higher in grading
21:44 Fixer i know one teenager server owner, who had teenager admin who destroyed server map, because drama and g-d damn that ---- is annoying, can you ----- stop this discord gossip and just play?
21:44 IhrFussel The server I played on earlier...gave someone the 'kick' and 'ban' priv because they were active...just cause they were active even though they are probably very young and barely know English (the server is English-centric)
21:44 Jordach lmfao
21:45 Jordach this is why only one person has all the privs, and fly and fast can be earned through regular gameplay
21:45 Fixer IhrFussel: typical carelessly teenager-run server
21:45 * Shara sighs,
21:45 tumeninodes open server... don't have time to run it... ban and all privs to first come first serve
21:45 Shara And I suppose you know every interaction they had with that player ever to judge the decision?
21:45 IhrFussel Not run by a teenager... I guess I will have to disclose the server name then...it's "Survival X"
21:45 shivajiva sounds like they are desperate to have some mod presence rather than full blown anarchy
21:46 IhrFussel The TOP server right now
21:46 Fixer when the server has a discord, I turn suspicious
21:46 tumeninodes like it was a real arm twister for you to say the name xD
21:47 tumeninodes yeh Discord seems a dead giveaway
21:47 IhrFussel I usually don't do that cause I think maybe my opinion could influence a few people
21:47 Fixer it is gossip place
21:47 Fixer full of drama
21:47 tumeninodes although... Jordach had Discord...
21:47 Fixer for example
21:48 tumeninodes unfortunately teens today... their whole life they are exposed to drama... blame the kardashains and poor parenting
21:48 Fixer server I play had discord, and there was constant bitchy-drama with those annoying teens but I was not affected with it at all, apart from map destroying, whining in chat etc %))
21:48 * tumeninodes may open a server just to torture kids muahahahahahaha
21:49 IhrFussel Well I think it is fair to say that more than 50% of the MT userbase are kids... some younger than we want to believe ... I had one who said they are 6 ... not sure if it's true but imagine it were)
21:49 tumeninodes and discord with txt turned off can only use emojis
21:49 shivajiva stating facts as you perceive them isn't a problem IhrFussel as long as you accept you don't have the whole picture to fully judge what seems to be misguided actions
21:49 Fixer i don't have discord, but I see how negatively it can affect the server, suddenly there is gossip, drama, ragequits, server shutdowns, owner banning his admins etc
21:50 Shara When a server is "bad" it's usually obvious.
21:50 Fixer best part is teenage owner hires teenage "IT-interested" person who backdoors the server or destroys it, --- damned it
21:50 Shara Yet players still show up.
21:50 Shara Because there's a load of them that love this drama
21:50 shivajiva feed off the drama
21:51 IhrFussel I'm not saying the server is bad... I was there and to me it looks like a generic survival server with rather few mods and basic layout/features ... if people look for exactly that it's fine
21:51 Fixer it feels like amount of cancer increases proportionally to amount of communication channels, if you have IRC+discord, you have 3x as much of cancer
21:51 Jordach at that point radiotherapy is needed
21:51 Jordach :P
21:51 shivajiva lol
21:51 Shara Fixer: lack of moderation is usually the biggest issue there
21:52 IhrFussel I was just expecting something special when I joined ... and I was kinda disappointed
21:52 Shara I saw a few servers adding discord bots to the IRC channel, but who is moderating there when the admin si away?
21:52 Shara is*
21:52 Fixer there are also some players that are commited griefers on overclocking levels
21:52 Jordach only issue with too much moderation, see VE's servers
21:53 Jordach servers are pretty much dead or have 1-2 players
21:53 Shara Even if I had op in the IRC channel, would owner be okay wiht me banning the bot if all else fails? It gets harder to manage..
21:53 Fixer probably dead because most players are mobile and they can't handle such memory fat servers
21:53 Shara Jordach: RC is pretty healthy with a strong moderator team
21:53 Jordach hands off approach tho
21:54 Jordach VE's might as well be handled with JCBa
21:54 Jordach s/a/b/g
21:54 IhrFussel And about the staff: I read it in the forum ... a few players just had to say "yes he is good staff" and he got approved... Not the best method to decide on staff
21:54 Fixer also, some players like to set up their bots on server IRC/discord and they do stuff like posting that 500kilobyte 4chan story or smth
21:55 tumeninodes the world needs more real parks... less servers... is the real problem
21:55 Fixer we have more servers than people
21:55 Fixer players want vibrant community, like hometown or smth
21:55 tumeninodes kids need to get back to bullying and beating up on others in real life, not virtually
21:55 Jordach ^
21:55 Jordach meatspace is important, yo
21:55 Fixer it is just not interesting to play on empty server, you want activity going on
21:56 tumeninodes haha
21:56 Shara Heh
21:56 shivajiva it's a fact that the kids like personalities and show up expecting to see certain moderators at certain times, this is exploited by the servers where possible to maintain a good player base and a friendly atmosphere when the price is manageable. It's a good tactic if you know how people work
21:56 Shara Fixer: problem is everyone wants their own server to be the boss or do it their own way
21:56 Jordach i liked krays server for that reason
21:56 Jordach griefing was solved by griefing
21:56 tumeninodes eye for an eye?
21:57 Jordach more like dont step on me
21:57 shivajiva gang warfare lol
21:58 tumeninodes ooooh just had an idea for a "pants" mod... so players can go around pulling down other players pants to embarrass them xD
21:58 Jordach ironically, it does actually work on 2b2t
21:58 paramat good grief reading logs from this channel about CSM ...
21:58 Jordach https://2b2t.miraheze.org/wiki/Timeline
21:58 tumeninodes beerholder has the idea... open server... everyone is on their own...
21:58 tumeninodes complete anarchy
21:59 shivajiva paramat: It was made clear trying to blame you doesn't mean shit
21:59 Shara ^
22:00 tumeninodes I only blame paramat for no rivers on MGflat :P
22:00 tumeninodes actually, everyone who would oppose it so... not him
22:00 Jordach and we blame server admins for trying to enforce their views :^)
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22:00 Fixer Jordach: nah, I've played on his other, less griefed one
22:00 Jordach i didn't mean a server admin here :^)
22:00 shivajiva consensus enforces views
22:01 Fixer Jordach: 2b is shit these days, goto -iam or 9b
22:01 Fixer cons-iam chat is amazing
22:01 Fixer like actual people
22:01 tumeninodes given the lack of real life situations today, it is good to punish kids for bad behavior, else we have a future society of absolute assholes
22:02 Fixer and some 4chan pastas
22:02 Fixer do we have /ignore in minetest?
22:02 shivajiva trumpets
22:02 shivajiva as I like to call them
22:02 IhrFussel BTW: The "players choose their server" is not 100% true these days...there are several apps on the app store which restrict servers client side ... you have to collect COINS to unlock FREE servers by watching ads or paying money
22:03 tumeninodes well..., that is a whole other topic right there
22:03 tumeninodes and a problem for the entire project
22:03 Fixer if only LazyJ updated his server to 0.4.17......
22:03 IhrFussel Yes but I wanted to mention it ... players can be theoretically "locked" on a server they don't like until they got enough "coins"
22:04 Fixer o_O
22:04 tumeninodes people making $ no matter how little, while placing a bad aura over the entire project is a serious problem
22:04 paramat it looks like nrz's f*cked up attitude was addressed, thanks
22:05 IhrFussel Another problem with many apps: They only list the first few top servers and NOT the whole list which is why most servers are always dead
22:05 paramat confirms my suspicions
22:05 Shara paramat: you are very welcome. It's good if we can healthy discussion about CSM, but trying to blame someone like that isn't okay
22:05 tumeninodes 0_0 did paramat just swear?????
22:05 tumeninodes (gasp) Sssssssquidward!
22:05 paramat the development of CSM was a complete disaster and nrz deluded us
22:05 Fixer server owners had to mention to player they play MINETEST, not some ad-dystopian-parasite app
22:06 paramat heh almost swore
22:06 tumeninodes haha
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22:06 nerzhul paramat are you serious
22:06 Fixer i like csm in minecraft, stuff like sorting inventory, mapping, hud, that can be useful for minetest for sure
22:06 IhrFussel Fixer, I did that a few months ago... but most people either don't care or don't read ... it was useless so I removed it again from the join message
22:06 Fixer chat improvements
22:06 tumeninodes oh boy... duck n cover
22:07 nerzhul disaster in what ?
22:07 Jordach ruining minetest game?
22:07 nerzhul because you didn't provide any feature on it ?
22:07 Fixer IhrFussel: just add a big MINETEST word in the sky with a smaller sign with details
22:07 tumeninodes this would so be a perfect moment to do a -hub  maint shutdown
22:08 tumeninodes where's Fuchs? :P
22:08 nerzhul Shara, where is healthy discussion when the only discussion from paramat is remove it
22:08 paramat if you don't support SSCSM i don't trust you to code it, leave it to someone else
22:08 Jordach not giving a Fuch, clearly, tumeninodes
22:08 IhrFussel Fixer, it gets really bad when players blame YOU (the server owner) for V.I.P requirements or displaying ads
22:08 nerzhul i support SSCSM idea but i don't have time to code it
22:08 tumeninodes haha
22:09 nerzhul i said that 8 month said and ? nothing
22:09 paramat i am not tryng to remove it obviously, i could try to, it's tempting, but i'm compromising
22:09 nerzhul nothing get time to code it
22:09 Fixer IhrFussel: make new players read the rules, that also address those problems with fake VIP and just use official client
22:09 nerzhul sorry but, one pr which remove all he code
22:09 nerzhul one pr which disable the code
22:09 nerzhul one pr which drop the code again
22:09 nerzhul but no
22:10 paramat you don't suppotr SSCSM clearly from what you've written. you got CPCSM then walked away
22:10 nerzhul i don't say i don't support it
22:10 nerzhul stop that shit
22:10 nerzhul i say i don't see why we need this NOW
22:10 nerzhul NOW for the 5.0.0 release which should happen earlier this year in july !
22:11 paramat read the logs
22:11 nerzhul i know what i said
22:11 Jordach there's probably 600 things more important than ramming your PR through everything
22:11 nerzhul and it's what i just said now
22:11 paramat you can't be trusted with CSM clearly, someone else can do it
22:11 nerzhul i don't know why i should try to release MT in fast
22:11 nerzhul fact*7
22:12 nerzhul because nobody wants to release it
22:12 nerzhul if you are the mt life saver go ahead
22:12 * Shara sighs a few more sighs
22:12 shivajiva I think you have too realise that paramats efforts are supported by a lot of server owners and that is why he's persistently trying to compromise for us, it's not like he stands alone in that respect
22:12 Jordach except those servers are made possible by mods
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22:12 Jordach admins just do the hard bit of making sure people aren't stupid
22:13 nerzhul there is a difference between compromise and not release MT since  6 month because there is only compromise and no real solutions
22:13 tumeninodes personally, I am glad 5.0.0 is taking so long to release... such a significant release should not be rushed to meet end users whines or expectations as to when
22:14 Fixer maybe there needs to be 0.4.18 again
22:14 nerzhul tumeninodes a devel program which should be released 6 month ago but nobody take the ownership is not in a good health, sorry
22:14 shivajiva if paramat hadn't sorted the sneak in the way he did a lot of people would have walked away, he was the only person willing to compromise and did so quickly for the community as a whole
22:15 Jordach sneak was basically a house of cards waiting to fall over
22:15 nerzhul and if i didn't rewrote some core engine non visible parts for server owners MT code should have been as bad as in 2015 in terms of performance with ~30% less performance
22:15 tumeninodes just keep up with minor fix releases to keep the project in the active status and keep end user intrerest... 5.0.0 is not the same as other prior releases ever
22:15 Jordach tumeninodes, considering some servers and games depend on the API therein, hmm
22:15 Fixer nerzhul: no need to rush with release tbh, just do 0.4.18
22:15 nerzhul one problem server owner miss is the voxel game mode is finished
22:16 nerzhul Fixer nothing to backport
22:16 Fixer also, everyone is focused on engine, god damn, please think of the chil-. minetest game! :D
22:16 nerzhul and to be honest again a backport risky bugfix (if needed), whereas 2 times we said no and now we said yes ?
22:16 nerzhul i think mtg also requires a release, you are right
22:16 nerzhul it's 0.4.17
22:16 nerzhul or 0.4.16 code no ?
22:17 nerzhul the game doesn't evolve too
22:17 Shara nerzhul: we know you did a lot of good things, and no one has said otherwise, but CSM has left many people angry
22:17 Jordach CSM was meant to be done in smaller parts
22:17 nerzhul i would said hungry
22:17 Jordach not just a oversized PR
22:17 Fixer it feels like developers can creampie some comp breaking code into the engine before 5.0
22:17 nerzhul we didn't break the lua part :)
22:17 nerzhul except if i miss something during my vacation
22:17 tumeninodes afk
22:17 shivajiva I'm 100% sure everybody appreciated that nerzhul, who wouldn't appreciate the game running faster.
22:18 nerzhul one thing i'm sure, a game active without release is considered dead by the community
22:18 nerzhul because client wants more features too
22:19 nerzhul and as i said, release 5.0.0 and push SSCSM in the 5.1 roadmap let's go guys
22:19 Jordach remember, catering to whiners created Minetest Gma
22:19 xerox123 hello all
22:19 Jordach Game
22:19 nerzhul Jordach oO ?
22:19 nerzhul mtg was a drama ?
22:20 shivajiva this is minetest, everything is a drama
22:20 Fixer I waited 6 years for carts drama
22:20 Shara Sneak sneak sneak!! (sorry :P)
22:20 Jordach even minecraft forge devs faster than MT
22:21 nerzhul Jordach and release often
22:21 nerzhul our devel mod has problems
22:21 nerzhul 5.0.0 was breaing right
22:21 Fixer I still remember 2011 or smth, standing on a big road along the shore, elevated, it had tracks going far, little I know it will need 6 years or so to have official carts in game
22:21 nerzhul then take 1 year to release, not 19 months :(
22:21 Jordach nerzhul, i've just gone and exposed most of the sky stuff to Lua, including some fancies
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22:21 Fixer i was so excited in 2011, oh boy, those nice tracks :D
22:21 Fixer and in 2017 or when you merged carts, that was amazing
22:21 nerzhul Fixed the problem is we are too genereic
22:21 Fixer fuckinb finally
22:22 nerzhul some objects needs less genericity than the SAO
22:22 Fixer To see carts in Minetest Game and to die
22:23 IhrFussel You didn't think enough of server owners when you implemented CSM... you didn't properly calculate risks of 'ore_detect', 'colored chat SERVER SIDE' and more
22:23 Shara I still remember being told players should have the right to do as they like, and CSM presented in a way to protect the players from server owners
22:24 Shara It was hard to think anything positive about it or the development of it, when the message was "server owners bad, players must be given more power to fight back against them!"
22:25 nerzhul IhrFussel in fact you are right my first idea was to have a generic lua stack without features
22:25 nerzhul then i started adding calls on client
22:25 nerzhul to access to client data
22:25 nerzhul and then ore drama
22:25 nerzhul then flavour
22:26 nerzhul then CSM with more API
22:26 nerzhul then current state
22:28 IhrFussel I know, but unfortunately 0.4.17.1 servers cannot make use of those 5.0.0 restrictions
22:28 IhrFussel That is likely what makes server owners mad
22:29 shivajiva that and the fact we had to fight for any restrictions
22:31 Jordach MT is stupidly mismanaged, it makes the crap microsoft put out look coherent
22:33 Jordach the way i see it is, that a fork of MT with 50% of previous major contribs gets chosen over the current mt/mt on GH
22:33 Jordach either that or the userbase bleeds off *completely*
22:33 Jordach are we a game engine, or a game? because one dictates the other
22:34 nerzhul IhrFussel and the 5.0.0 release delay doesn't help, but is this my fault, no
22:35 IhrFussel No, but it doesn't help current servers ... and even if 5.0.0 released today I doubt that any servers with an established userbase would upgrade to that now ... they would lose lots of active players
22:36 shivajiva not your fault nerzhul, I'm not saying that either, this was badly managed that's all
22:37 nerzhul yeah it was badly managed, and the more we wait for 5.0.0 to be released the more you won't have flavours to fix that problem
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22:38 shivajiva that's why I'm trying to find out where this is going from your perspective
22:38 IhrFussel Servers with many mods (like mine) need to be extensively tested before they can be used in production (although not much should break for the API)
22:38 nerzhul IhrFussel the compat break is another problem but was announced 2 years ago
22:38 paramat c55 wants server admin opinions https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7949#issuecomment-445577766
22:38 tumeninodes every software has breaking releases
22:38 nerzhul as i already said ,except if i miss some PR no API breakage has been done
22:39 nerzhul we just have protocol break between client & server
22:39 IhrFussel I think there are a few things... position offset for player model, mapgen stuff and some more IIRC
22:39 nerzhul but i never see a game where it's a huge problem with custom servers (CS, CoD, ARK...)
22:40 nerzhul IhrFussel right, offset i missed
22:40 nerzhul mapgen stuff should not break maps, if i remember it applied to newly generated blocks
22:41 tumeninodes better to be late, than to put out a hyped up release, and get poor reviews because it doesn;t live up to the hype... that kills projects quicker than a late release
22:42 Lavos joined #minetest-hub
22:45 tumeninodes one thing to think about... it is not like those who use the MT engine are going to drop it, and use a different engine..., because there is not one avail. At least none which are as good as MT
22:46 tumeninodes sounds obnoxious, but it's true
22:48 tumeninodes it's not really "mismanaged"... it is an open source, volunteer basis dev project. comparing it's development and release schedule to another with a multi-million $ backing is off the mark
22:49 tumeninodes 5.0.0 is marked as a "serious" release... and has no actual "due date" or deadline
22:49 Fixer right
22:50 tumeninodes in the mean time, there are still plenty of .this and .thats which can be utilized until 5.0.0 is truly ready, and lives up to the hype
22:51 tumeninodes no one is at fault... shit happens
22:53 tumeninodes blaming and egos cause stagnation... wipe up the spilled milk and carry on
22:54 tumeninodes and anyone who asks "When is 5.0.0 coming..?" can be shot on sight
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22:58 nerzhul shot me then :D
22:58 tumeninodes xD
22:58 nerzhul you know 5.0.0 is coming when winter is coming, after 8 seasons
22:58 tumeninodes nah... we need you
22:59 tumeninodes hey, as long as no one says "which WInter" we're good
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23:02 tumeninodes Lavos wth?
23:04 Lavos joined #minetest-hub
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23:11 paramat nerz please don't keep blaming everyone for the release delay, 5.0.0 has taken time for very good reason. we have 'taken ownership of the release', i'm the person who has, more than anyone, made it happen, not a long-absent dev who pops up and is seemingly trying to take the credit for making the release happen
23:12 nerzhul another time you miss the point
23:12 nerzhul you really think i care about credit on the release lol ? seriously guy ?
23:12 nerzhul i just want the release to be a reality, i don't care about credit
23:12 nerzhul and no you didn't take ownership because there is no feature freeze discussion except mine
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23:18 paramat your feature freeze suggestion is ridiculous. anyone can ask for a feature freeze, i kept MT alive and brought us to release
23:18 nerzhul lol
23:19 nerzhul i agree you did community things
23:19 nerzhul it's nice
23:19 paramat i wish hmmmm was here, he wouldn't take this crap
23:19 nerzhul but no you didn't triggered a release process with feature freeze
23:19 sfan5 this is some next level toxic retardation
23:19 nerzhul but hmmmm has left project since 2 years
23:20 paramat he left mostly because of your attitude
23:20 nerzhul hmm not only, because it was less interested by the project too
23:21 paramat true yes
23:21 nerzhul now i just want to make 5.0.0 a reality, else i don't know when it will be released but what thing is sure, voxel games era is over since 1 year at least
23:22 nerzhul it's battle arena era currently
23:22 nerzhul i go to bed, see you alter
23:22 nerzhul later*
23:28 shivajiva gn nerzhul
23:29 paramat 5.0.0 will have been released with or without you, it's not you who has made it happen
23:32 Peppy what will the minimum version of Android required for 5.0 ? (players keep asking)
23:34 shivajiva I don't think nrz believes he's making it happen, he's just trying to inject some energy
23:38 Peppy wiki says "Android 4.0 or later" I guess this stands for 0.4.16 as the page is quite old
23:38 Jordach not everyone wants their name plastered all over the place like a knockoff kardashian
23:38 Jordach some of us like getting into the codebase and busy with new stuff
23:39 rubenwardy Paramat helping review blockers is more helpful for the release than suggesting a freeze
23:41 Fixer most of the time it is paramat in comments
23:46 paramat it's a difficult situation. once CSM is coded in an open source project it's essentially screwed, hacking is reduced to altering one line. sometimes it seems the only way to make the drawbacks worthwhile is to have the advantages of full server-sent CSM
23:47 paramat so again, everything or nothing, not CPCSM alone
23:47 paramat so please support my PR https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7949
23:48 paramat ideally CSM should be moved back out to a development branch, due to the big security issues and testing it will need
23:49 paramat then remerged when complete and if safe
23:50 tumeninodes if this is the concensus among the server owners/operators, that is the way to go... server owners are the top customers/concerns for MT and MTG
23:50 tumeninodes 2d comes the end users... who most of their experience is via the servers they play on
23:52 Shara I'd argue that depends on the issue, but CSm is definitely a server owner issue
23:52 tumeninodes true, it does depend but most of the user base is via servers
23:53 tumeninodes the rest of the user base are sole/creative users and psychopaths
23:55 tumeninodes the voxel game era is not dead... it has simply flatlined or plataued but will continue to remain relevant. Someone can also create an arena/voxel game using MT if that is the big thing... arena ga,es have also been around forever
23:56 paramat i'm happy it's less fashionable, smaller 'cult game' communities are nicer
23:56 tumeninodes CSM as it is currently, is a nightmare for server owners and that should be focused on. Should be an optional feature regardless
23:57 tumeninodes maybe developed as a plugin
23:57 tumeninodes paramat, I agree

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