Time Nick Message 00:00 rubenwardy *Minetest Game 00:00 Shara it was to begin with? 00:08 IhrFussel Shara, originally I didn't mean you or your servers, but if you agree with the "my staff can do whatever and players should just accept it" attitude then I gotta say I'm a bit disappointed 00:09 Shara Learn to read 00:09 Shara You are self-righteous  and insulting 00:09 Shara And quite honestly, I thought better of you 00:09 IhrFussel Not insulting, insults are something else ... maybe a bit direct 00:10 Shara No, it's insulting 00:10 Shara And you declaring yourself a more fair admin than I am is laughable. 00:10 Shara You just seem to be making things up really. 00:10 IhrFussel But I am more fair since I see myself as just another player with more responsibility 00:11 Shara No, you're not 00:11 IhrFussel And most of you in that thread see themselves as "property" owners who can make up any rule that has to be followed...pathetic really 00:12 Shara I'm pathetic? :) 00:13 Shara I small recommendation for you: spend some time actually playing on other servers and stop making up behaviours you think happen 00:14 IhrFussel I didn't say that you are pathetic ... I was talking about the attitude of many in that thread. I hear enough from players that play actively on my server ... why would they need to make up such stories? 00:15 Shara Read your own words. "Most of you", which is inclusive of me. 00:15 Shara "pathetic really" 00:15 IhrFussel I'm not claiming that *all* bans are wrong or arrogant/ignorant etc ... but certain reason for a ban or other penalty are silly and make no sense 00:16 Shara Yet you seem to be taking it out on the ones who do have reasonable rules and stick to them, then calling yourself "more fair" than them. 00:20 IhrFussel But I am definitely more fair if you say that the player doesn't need the right to complain about a potential bad decision of a staff member, cause that would be considered "not fair" 00:20 Shara Where'd I say that? 00:21 IhrFussel Not you but at least 2 others in that thread 00:21 Shara So why quote me than direct that at me? 00:21 Shara then* 00:24 IhrFussel I'm not sure how to multi quote and I thought the others will read it anyway even if I don't quote them ... part of my post was directed towards you the rest was not 00:25 Shara Well I have no clue what of any of that is directed at me. Not sure why you quoted me at all. You could just use people's names 00:28 IhrFussel The last 2 lines were for you really ... and I never called myself superior to other owners, just more fair ... and more fair in this context means that I treat my players like I treat my staff members 00:28 Shara Odd how I actually specifically pointed out in my post that the same standards apply to both my players and moderators.. yet somehow you are more fair than me? 00:29 IhrFussel I don't tend to be on one's side more...I'm 100% neutral ... no matter who I treat everyone equally even the ones I dislike 00:29 sofar IhrFussel: your perception of "fair" isn't shared by others 00:29 sofar but you judge others who disagree 00:29 IhrFussel Maybe it's not shared by you or many in this community, but it is shared elsewhere 00:30 sofar "more fair" 00:30 sofar it's your words 00:30 Shara Fussel. the real ridiculous thing is that though many feel "my server so my rules"... they often choose rules that are fair and good. 00:30 IhrFussel fairness means NOBODY is better than another....a lot of people share this view 00:30 Shara But you only seem to see the first bit. 00:30 sofar fairness, or equality? 00:30 sofar maybe you're an egalitarian 00:31 sofar the perception of "fair" is entirely self-centric in most cases 00:31 IhrFussel That's part of fairness... fairness is also that I punish every player the same regardless of our relation 00:31 sofar this isn't necessarily fair at all 00:31 sofar is it fair to give a billionaire a 50$ ticket for speeding? 00:33 Shara cmd ban_record moshioshi 00:33 Shara opps 00:34 sofar lol 00:34 Shara one tab more than I'm used to and it call falls apart :D 00:34 IhrFussel sofar, I hope you agree that you should not punish someone less bad just because they are your friends compared to a stranger 00:34 IhrFussel If you do then you get my point 00:34 sofar I don't have any friends 00:35 sofar and the only punishment on my server that exists is ban 00:35 shivajiva ahem, thanks :P 00:35 sofar shivajiva: you're welcome ;) 00:35 IhrFussel Well then my Bad Score system is also "more fair" cause it gives players the chance to change before they are banned 00:35 sofar here you go again with "more fair" 00:36 Shara More fair than what? 00:36 Shara You think you are the only one who has something that comes before /ban? 00:36 sofar you have zero comparison since comparing servers is entirely irrelevant 00:36 sofar I've seen the same discussion on MC servers, it's mostly useless 00:36 shivajiva 50 shades of black and white, have you heard I'm unfair with my bans IhrFussel? 00:37 IhrFussel I never said that I am the *only* one who treats players equally and respectfully ... I also never stated that I am the best admin, all I say is that my methods of handling a server are more forgiving 00:38 Shara More forgiving is the same as more fair? 00:38 sofar "more forgiving" 00:39 sofar you're still comparing to nothing 00:39 sofar you have no data 00:39 shivajiva self-righteousness is a flaw in ones ego not a ban system 00:39 IhrFussel Well in the player's point of view I am "more fair" because I don't just ban them and move on...I actually CARE about each situation where a staff member made a decision and I check if that decision was correct 00:40 Shara And you are comparing against what? 00:40 shivajiva care enough to come slating respectable and considerate server owners 00:40 TommyTreasure IhrFussel, for what its worth, the player that started that forum thread, came into a server like a gang buster, tried to take over as 'king of the server', gave players incorrect information about mods and recipes, then started a minor lava griefing party. 00:40 IhrFussel If it was not correct then I UNDO the action, apologize and punish my staff member 00:40 sofar it's great to have a good set of rules on your own server 00:40 Shara Fussel, you are not the only admin who ever reversed a ban after rethinking things. 00:41 shivajiva we all do that... 00:41 sofar it's not great to use zero data to claim that it's better than "others" 00:41 Shara ^ 00:41 sofar I've banned maybe 3 people on ITB 00:41 sofar one had "fuck" in the player name 00:41 sofar lol 00:41 TommyTreasure that's an instant ban for me 00:41 IhrFussel Okay but some people still believe that it's not necessary to give the kicked/banned player an opportunity to tell their view of things which is what made me mad 00:42 Shara RC gets almost daily log in attempts from a player with that name :) 00:42 sofar I think the second one was posting URLs in chat (spam) 00:42 TommyTreasure oh, i let the spew their opinion, and have never banned for an opinion. 00:42 Shara Fussel, whether they get the right to explain compeltely depends on what they are doing. 00:42 shivajiva I probably ban more than most because all the weirdos come to my server 00:42 TommyTreasure let them* 00:42 IhrFussel I would not ban in that case, I tell them to change the name and put ONLY the name on the blacklist... unless you didn't mean an IP ban 00:43 Shara Fussel, my approach is warn, then kick and change password on that name. 00:43 TommyTreasure when there's children under 7 years old as regular players? sorry, i wholeheartedly dissagree with that theory 00:43 Shara But it's one chance only, and my moderators can't change password, so they don't have that option 00:44 Shara If I know I have young players and someone joins server and starts spamming chat with inappropriate messages, what chance would you expect them to be given? That behaviour is obviously trollish and intended to disrupt the server. 00:44 shivajiva if you enter my server which states it's a family server, with an offensive name you get banned by your IP, tell me how you can make that mistake because you're naive to think they deserve a second chance 00:45 Shara On the other hand, a one off swear word? That's totally different and could easily have been a mistake, so we'll talk 00:48 IhrFussel Unless the server description states what is allowed and sisn't allowed, it is again wrong IMO to ban a player without them knowing what's OK and what isn't 00:49 Shara There's a site with the rules on it. 00:49 IhrFussel You cannot expect a player to know the rules the moment they join the first time 00:50 shivajiva if rules pop up to be read then it's covered 00:50 IhrFussel Then that site needs to be in the server description, but at least on Android that description is only 2 lines or entirely missing 00:50 TommyTreasure there's not enough room to post rules in the server description. its the player's responsibility to find the server's rules, and read them. ignorance of them is not an excuse 00:51 IhrFussel You don't understand what I mean... if a player named "fuck" connects for the first time they cannot possibly know that such names are not wanted 00:51 IhrFussel So an instant ban is not fair 00:51 IhrFussel IP ban* 00:51 TommyTreasure however, starting a game chat debate with moderators leads to players getting frustrated over their comments 00:51 Shara That's like thinking it's okay to walk into a shop swearing really loudly 00:52 TommyTreasure common sense disagrees with that 00:52 shivajiva instead of attacking generally why don't you name the servers and the people so we can all be educated, your players have told you so why not spill the beans? 00:52 Shara ^ 00:52 TommyTreasure or in a church 00:52 Shara MT is a game that is mostly played by children 00:52 TommyTreasure you don't know where you are until you get there. its commons sense to show a bit of respect if you don't know 00:53 TommyTreasure for instance, i have a player on my server that's 4 years old 00:55 IhrFussel Common sense doesn't really apply here cause there are certainly servers that are fine with such names...on the other hand there are likely no shops/stores that are fine with loudly swearing 00:56 Shara Those servers aren't the norm though. 00:57 IhrFussel Another point I raised in the thread was "punishing a player for something that was not part of the rules" do you agree here too? And think this is fair? How should the player have known that this is not OK to do? 00:58 IhrFussel Mind reading? Luck? There are a few servers that do it 00:58 Shara So name them and be outraged at them if you must. 00:59 IhrFussel I'm interested in your opinion since you also have servers 00:59 Shara I have rules and they are followed. 00:59 IhrFussel Yes but imagine a player does something you consider wrong but didn't state in your rules...what will you do? 01:00 Shara I can't think of a time that's happened. 01:00 Shara I've extended my rules in the past, but that wasn't because the rules didn't cover things. It was to make it easier for players to understand that certain things were covered 01:01 IhrFussel But what IF it would happen...how would you most likely react? 01:02 Shara Totally impossible to say. It would depend on what it was 01:02 shivajiva I think you listen to the tall stories your players tell more than rationalising the outcomes 01:02 * rdococ scratches his head 01:03 IhrFussel Okay well I can tell what I would do... I would not have the right to punish the player for it because the player didn't read about that thing anywhere, but I would add it my rules after immediately so that I can punish players in the future 01:03 shivajiva you have us imagining scenarios at this point to validate this attack 01:03 Shara Even if not reacting meant your server or players were at risk? 01:04 shivajiva you basically called everyone pathetic without just cause 01:05 shivajiva and backed it up with self-righteousness 01:05 IhrFussel shivajiva, there are servers that did this before...I'm not name calling cause that's not nice to do, but your servers are not part of it AFAICT 01:05 Shara And made a whole bunch of assumptions about how servers are managed without any direct experience 01:05 Shara Fussel, then stop making these geenralised statements 01:05 Shara generalised* 01:06 IhrFussel I never said "all other servers are bad" ... I always mentioned "many" "quite a few" etc 01:07 Shara You don't really seem to realise how general you make what you say. 01:08 IhrFussel There are 250+ servers in the list ... of course I couldn't check all of them, that's why I focused on the more popular ones 01:08 shivajiva I often go to servers to talk to the admin or mods when a player claims something and 9/10 you get the low down on the history and they have justification. Without the history it's just a fairytale 01:08 TommyTreasure if they're popular, then that means the majority of the players agree to and abide to the rules 01:09 IhrFussel They sometimes agree out of fear 01:09 TommyTreasure oh come on. fear of what? 01:09 IhrFussel Fear to lose access to their friends/projects 01:09 IhrFussel You think that's not real? 01:09 TommyTreasure oh well, a map reset is also a source of fear for that 01:10 IhrFussel But if you know that you will be banned if you don't follow rules of server x, no matter how ridiculous you fin the rules to be...then you simply obey 01:11 IhrFussel Depending on how important the server/map is to you 01:11 shivajiva did they forget about free choice? 01:12 TommyTreasure i also don't know of any player that plays at only 1 server. not saying there aren't but they are far and few between 01:15 IhrFussel Most people have a "main server" and a few others they visit from time to time 01:16 Shara Doesn't really match what I've seen. 01:17 TommyTreasure IhrFussel, i play other servers more than i play my own 01:18 IhrFussel My English isn't the best...what I mean is most people play X hours on server A and then maybe 1 or 2 on server B 01:18 TommyTreasure i also abide by their rules, and don't play the servers that allow or promote foul language 01:18 TommyTreasure my choice :) 01:21 shivajiva good people respect others even when they are in the crappiest of moods, they exclude themselves for the benefit of others rather than create problems. What we have here is kids pushing boundaries and learning the cost 01:23 shivajiva rules create order for you and the next person they encounter 01:23 shivajiva it's how we learn after all 01:24 shivajiva your problem is with the immature server owners 01:25 shivajiva they come and go mostly 01:25 IhrFussel You should only treat your players the same way you would want to be treated if you were the player... and many think different here 01:26 IhrFussel I better say some* 01:26 Shara Who "here" would that be? 01:26 shivajiva no your wrong, everyone thinks like that except the people with agendas 01:26 shivajiva *you're 01:29 shivajiva this is open source, no mountain to climb or power to yield except to contribute for the many 01:31 shivajiva anything you see as a power structure is in your head 01:31 shivajiva ask any dev 01:36 IhrFussel Then some popular servers are run by people with agendas...okay 01:37 shivajiva which ones? 01:37 shivajiva lets have a witch hunt :) 01:39 shivajiva [OldCoder] that's sarcasm btw 01:43 shivajiva we will always come across individuals with agendas, you can't escape it here because it appears in real life 01:46 TommyTreasure players should be treated in accordance to the theme and rules of the server being moderated. has nothing to do with our personal feelings. i've gone way overboard with a particular player, and held back my ban button on more occasions than i can count. that player still holds the record for being banned on that server 01:47 TommyTreasure for instance, i don't really care for pvp servers, yet i'm a moderator of just such a server. in most cases, i have to defend the attacker, and reprimand the victim, because the victim didn't follow the rules 01:48 TommyTreasure if i followed my personal feelings, the attacker would have been banned instantly. big difference 01:50 Shara I can attest to Tommy having done that, and it's a big part of why I rate him so highly as an admin. He has proved without any doubt that he follows the rules ove rhis own preferences. 01:51 TommyTreasure 01:51 shivajiva the truth is for the most part we learn a deeper sense of control by trying to balance it responsibly rather than reacting 01:52 tumeninodes systemic server ownerism..., that's what it is! 01:58 Shara Hi tumeninodes 02:02 shivajiva IhrFussel: no hard feelings, can't speak for the rest though 02:04 tumeninodes Hi Shara, and everyone else 02:36 tumeninodes ehhhh woops :D 07:44 sofar new mod, may be interesting for folks: 07:44 sofar https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19901 08:48 kcorK ‮what a lovely day 09:29 paramat IhrFussel wrote: "if a player named "fuck" connects for the first time they cannot possibly know that such names are not wanted. So an instant ban is not fair" LOL, so much nonsense :] 09:35 paramat 'oh sorry, i just joined and haven't read the rules yet, didn't realise i couldn't make death threats, so you can't do anything' ^_^ 09:43 paramat 'oh sorry, your rules don't mention this very specific extremely nasty behaviour, so i didn't realise i couldn't and you can't do anything. i have human rights you know!' 09:43 rud0lf there's an uspoken rule everywhere: don't be a d*ck 09:49 paramat (i would actually avoid Ihr's server due to admin being too soft on players) 09:51 Peppy hi 09:52 kcorK rud0lf, Wheaton's law 09:52 kcorK ‮player names like "fuck" can be forbidden before they iregister 09:52 kcorK ‮*register 09:55 Peppy paramat, do you think that "Force players to set their language via GUI on first application launch" would be a valid request ? 09:58 Peppy too bad paramat did timeout, maybe others can give their thoughts about this one... 10:08 longerstaff13 some users may not want to give out their language 10:09 kcorK Peppy, ‮why not detect it automatically? 10:09 kcorK ‮that's what we do right now and it works quite good 10:10 kcorK ‮ btw longerstaff13 , does this text look mirrored to you? 10:11 longerstaff13 kcorK: it looks backward :P 10:11 longerstaff13 if you highlight it though, it goes to normal 10:11 Peppy it's apain to read :D 10:11 longerstaff13 lol 10:12 kcorK ‮oh,t hen it's great :D 10:12 kcorK ‮ and it's 1st april, Peppy :D 10:12 longerstaff13 P: puy 10:12 Peppy well maybe detection doesn't work so well on Android only (I can't test this) 10:13 kcorK ‮the character is called RIGHT-TO_LEFT writing mark/control whatever 10:14 longerstaff13 heh, if I try /nick 31ffatsregnol, it says it's an Erroneous nickname :P 10:15 kcorK ‮they may not start with a number? weird 10:15 ffatsregnol heh 10:16 kcorK ‮works :D 10:16 ffatsregnol puy 10:16 kcorK ‮you can also group the nickname to your other account in order to stay registered 10:17 kcorK ‮oh boy hexchat messes up so bad when the message wraps around the next line 10:17 longerstaff13 :P 10:17 longerstaff13 you use hexchat too? 10:17 kcorK ‮ofc. simplistic and easy to use client 10:17 longerstaff13 indeed 10:18 longerstaff13 I use it on Ubuntu 16.04 10:18 kcorK ‮but what I kinda miss are easy control inputs for colors and text formatting 10:18 longerstaff13 you mean like this? 10:19 kcorK ‮did you mean to format that line? I don't see anything 10:19 longerstaff13 yeah, it was bold 10:19 longerstaff13 lol 10:19 kcorK ‮ctrl+U works quite good 10:19 longerstaff13 underline 10:19 kcorK ‮and this shows as bold, italic and underline to me 10:20 longerstaff13 sweet 10:20 longerstaff13 it's just backwards to me XD 10:22 kcorK ‮hello paramat 10:23 rubenwardy Quassel > Hexchat 10:23 longerstaff13 I used to use Quassel on another machine 10:23 kcorK ‮Quassel > Hexchat 10:24 kcorK ‮oh dear, it also swaps the GT/LT signs 10:24 longerstaff13 imo hexchat is easier for connecting to ZNC :P 10:25 Wayward_One hi all :) 10:25 kcorK ‮hello Wayward_One 10:25 longerstaff13 hey Wayward_One 10:26 shivajiva hello Wayward_One :) 10:27 longerstaff13 good late morning, shivajiva o/ 10:28 * shivajiva yawns and wonders if someone patched the bullet hole in Fussels foot 10:29 longerstaff13 lol 10:29 kcorK ‮git apply bulled_hole.patch 10:30 shivajiva lol nearly kcorK 10:31 kcorK ‮hello shivajiva :) 10:31 shivajiva hiya Krock :) 10:32 rubenwardy Don't use quassel with znc 10:32 rubenwardy Znc sucks 10:32 rubenwardy Quassel-core syncs so much better 10:33 longerstaff13 rubenwardy: I'm guessing that's what you use? 10:33 rubenwardy Yeah 10:33 rubenwardy It works like a modern app, connecting clients download all recent messages reliably 10:33 shivajiva it does? How have I got 2 years down the line with ZNC without any issue other than timestamps :P 10:33 longerstaff13 lol 10:34 rubenwardy Means you can use multiple devices and have the log appear consistently 10:34 longerstaff13 I've been using ZNC for about a year 10:34 rubenwardy With znc, the first device to read the logs consumes it 10:34 Shara ZNC has been doing fine for me as well 10:34 Shara (also hi everyone) 10:34 rubenwardy So further connecting devices won't see the scrollback 10:34 shivajiva Morning Shara 10:34 rubenwardy Also, scrollback is infinite 10:34 shivajiva ah that's probably why, never use other devices 10:34 longerstaff13 my internet connection used to be bad (heh, it still is), but at my old place it was worse, so I asked someone for a ZNC account 10:35 rubenwardy And it syncs read status 10:35 rubenwardy I used znc for a year or so 10:35 Wayward_One ɐɹɐɥs ıɥ 10:35 Shara :) 10:35 rubenwardy Plus it's easier to setup than znc 10:36 Shara Even I managed to set up ZNC... so it can't be that difficult :P 10:37 shivajiva as I trust your opinion ruben, I'll take a look see 10:37 longerstaff13 I set it up locally in a terminal on one of my other machines, used that for about a month, but my internet started disconnecting a lot so I went back to a hosted-for-me ZNC 10:37 rubenwardy Znc is easy to setup 10:38 kcorK ‮ Wayward_One, that's not a control character 10:39 kcorK ‮I imagine converting each message is quite painful 10:42 shivajiva quassel core needs quassel clients for it to work? 10:49 rud0lf yup 10:49 rud0lf core is like a server for quassel clients 10:50 shivajiva hmm okay 10:51 lisac WTF https://www.fluentcpp.com/2018/04/01/cpp-will-no-longer-have-pointers/ 10:52 rud0lf lisac: april fools? 10:52 Shara Aww, you should have delayed explaining :) 10:52 lisac :( I'm bad at these 10:52 * Shara wanted to see if anyone else would react :P 10:53 rud0lf it like saying mcdonalds won't have burgers any more 10:54 longerstaff13 my reaction if ^ that happened: D: 10:59 kcorK ‮ lisac, that's an april fool 10:59 lisac I know 11:02 lisac RP ekoj a gnikam tuoba gnikniht m'I 12:21 Wayward_One Lol kcorK, it's a new feature on one of my mobile clients 12:23 kcorK ‮ Wayward_One, what does "it" refer to? 12:30 Fixer interesting 12:32 cx384 kcorK (: ˙ʎɐpoʇ ƃuoɹʍ sı uoıʇɔǝɹıp ǝɥʇ ʞuıɥʇ ı 12:33 kcorK ‮ cx384, yours seems to be much easier to read as it's 180° rotated 12:34 Calinou reyalP tseteniM ,senim tset tsum uoy ,emag eht niw oT 12:35 Calinou hi :) 12:35 cx384 pɐǝɹ oʇ pɹɐɥ ʎllɐǝɹ sı sıɥʇ 12:35 rubenwardy Not really 12:36 rubenwardy Can just turn the screen around 12:36 rud0lf it 'test' part of minetest an ending like in "best" or "lightest" ? 12:36 rubenwardy Especially as I'm on my phone 12:36 rud0lf minetest of them all 12:36 Calinou there's a shortcut on Windows 10 to rotate the display 12:37 kcorK ‮ rubenwardy, but you can't flip your phone so it makes this message here readable 12:38 rubenwardy The problem with that is you're then using Windows 10 12:39 kcorK ‮I'm sure you could run a command in Linux to do the same thing 12:50 longerstaff13 is anybody able to give my account permanent voice here? if so I would be really grateful, thanks :) 12:53 Calinou I don't have operator permissions here 12:54 longerstaff13 aw okay, do you know who does? 12:56 Calinou type /msg ChanServ access #minetest-hub list 12:56 Calinou people with +O or +o have operator privileges 12:56 Calinou people with +V have automatic voice 12:56 cx384 http://hub.minetest.net/ ʇuıɥ 12:58 paramat the mineyest 12:59 paramat the mintyest 12:59 longerstaff13 mm, mint 12:59 longerstaff13 Linux Mint is good too 13:03 longerstaff13 Calinou: thanks 13:09 aerozoic Anybody have a link that explains the formula for the server list? 13:12 Calinou aerozoic: the code is there :) https://github.com/minetest/master-server 13:12 Calinou https://github.com/minetest/master-server/blob/master/server.py#L302-L347 13:13 aerozoic i'm not a coder :( 13:13 aerozoic oh it's commented, thanks :) 13:19 aerozoic OMG my server is #2???????? 13:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood 13:22 rubenwardy !server 13:22 MinetestBot rubenwardy: *** MinersWorld *** by Telesight | minersworld.telesight.nl:30006 | Clients: 5/60, 4/7 | Version: 0.4.16 / minetest | Ping: 6ms 13:22 rubenwardy !server score:top 13:22 MinetestBot rubenwardy: No results 13:41 aerozoic It would be cool if owners could see their score somehow. 13:55 xerox123 rubenwardy: where can I find your script to see how a server is being scored? 13:55 rubenwardy https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/6d6882db0cbe1b5b24be 13:56 xerox123 thanx 14:02 lisac is the network protocol documented anywhere? 14:03 lisac I found this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/protocol.txt 14:03 lisac it does work, but it doesn't mention anything like at all 14:03 rubenwardy ? 14:03 rubenwardy like what? 14:03 rubenwardy also, that's only partial document 14:03 rubenwardy +ation 14:04 rubenwardy you want src/network/protocol.h 14:04 rubenwardy there's an enum with documentation there 14:04 lisac oh 14:04 lisac https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/network/networkprotocol.h ? 14:04 lisac I was hoping for some examples lol 14:05 rubenwardy heh 14:05 rubenwardy use wireshark for that 14:06 rubenwardy hint: there's a plugin for wireshark to give packets nice names 14:06 lisac I'm using wireshark, but I'm terrible at using wireshark. :P 14:06 lisac I somehow managed to filter it to only show port 30000 though 14:08 longerstaff13 what is it with these spammers attacking random channels? 14:10 xerox123 longerstaff13: april fools 14:11 longerstaff13 fair enough 14:26 rud0lf so they're trying to fool people that their server is cool? 14:26 rud0lf *ba-dum tss* 14:27 paramat hehe 'my server is burned wood' 14:29 rud0lf does it smell like tnt to you? 14:38 IhrFussel paramat, just because I give my players more chances and respect them more compared to certain other server owners, doesn't make me a bad or soft admin ... I still punish players who break my rules but it's completely unnecessary to just ban them after one mistake 14:40 IhrFussel You don't even have a server, so I don't feel like you know what it takes to be a good server admin 14:41 rubenwardy lol 14:41 rubenwardy none of us say we ban after one mistake 14:42 rubenwardy generalising again 14:42 lumberJ i've learned the hard way giving chances, 99.9%, never makes a difference. Of course, i'm not referring to honest mistakes 14:42 IhrFussel You said you only have "ban" as option which is bad server management in my eyes... you should have more than that 14:42 rubenwardy nope 14:42 rubenwardy everyone has kick 14:42 rubenwardy also, who's "you" 14:43 lumberJ but many players breeze past rules, essentially willfully ignoring them and then claim to not have known the rules after being confronted about it 14:43 IhrFussel Then you obviously don't use kick cause you said yesterday that you only use ban 14:43 rubenwardy I didn't say that 14:44 IhrFussel Okay I forgot it was sofar 14:44 IhrFussel "and the only punishment on my server that exists is ban" 14:45 rubenwardy sofar's server doesn't have any players 14:45 rubenwardy so... 14:45 lumberJ Whats the issue with banning players? 14:45 rubenwardy XD 14:45 lumberJ isn't it far more humane to ban them quickly so they move on to a server that is less moderated or has no rules 14:45 lumberJ ? 14:46 IhrFussel lumberJ, a ban is the highest punishment and completely misused for a "tiny" rule break 14:46 lumberJ than to string them along, let them build and mine a lot and then end up banning them because the way they want to play is not compatible? 14:46 lumberJ yeah, but 'tiny' is subjective 14:46 rubenwardy I only immediately ban if it's blatently malicious, such as a lot of spam (think pages moving past) or overly graphic sexual content 14:47 lumberJ what may seem tiny to one person may be very irritating to someone else 14:47 IhrFussel I'm confident that my score system is a far better approach cause the amount of bad points a player receives depends entirely on WHAT they did ... and spamming the chat is obviously LESS bad than griefing 14:47 lumberJ especially if the rule is clearly stated and agreed upon 14:47 rubenwardy you're overally self confident 14:47 rubenwardy and self righteous 14:48 lumberJ i have a scoring system: break a rule -1, your banned :P 14:48 IhrFussel My server is one evidence for the fact that a "soft rule server" must NOT end in chaos 14:48 lumberJ in all seriousness, if that works for you its fine, but that doesn't work for all admins/server owners 14:49 lumberJ not every one wants to invest all their spare time grooming players to play nice or essentially babysitting 14:49 lumberJ and its not an issue or 'respecting' players 14:49 lumberJ respect goes both ways 14:49 rud0lf rubenwardy: so announcement to master server is practically a .json blob POST-ed to it? 14:49 rubenwardy yep 14:50 rubenwardy If a player shows complete disdain for the rules, why should the play on my server? 14:50 * longerstaff13 wonders what he walked into 14:50 IhrFussel Your players are also paying on your server...they are paying their freetime and some of you seem to forget that 14:50 rubenwardy lol 14:50 lumberJ its far easier to server hop, than it is for me to bend my own rules after all the time/money I have spent on it 14:51 rubenwardy why should they get to ruin the experience for other players? 14:51 IhrFussel You should be a bit thankful that they chose YOUR server to build their projects or spend their time in general 14:51 lumberJ i am very thankful to the ones who follow the rules 14:51 lumberJ and they know they are appreciated and they play regularly, often many hours a day 14:52 lumberJ and they appreciate that i don't tolerate nonsense and quickly dispatch rulebreakers 14:52 IhrFussel And because many spend so much time on your server, it is almost a crime to simply BLOCK their access to their projects just because they broke some rule ... you should punish them only as much as their action deserves 14:52 rubenwardy wow 14:53 lumberJ their parents can do that 14:53 IhrFussel You are a joke 14:53 lumberJ most players i ban get banned within the first 30 minutes of joining 14:53 rubenwardy you are a joke 14:53 lumberJ its not as if i string them along and suddenly ban them 14:53 paramat 'almost a crime' 14:53 aerozoic OMG not this again 14:54 lumberJ lol 14:54 IhrFussel Sorry but I have no other words left for you...you just think you are the gods on your servers and you feel NOTHING for your players 14:54 rubenwardy you're a self-rightreous idiot 14:54 lumberJ you might try joining any of out servers and asking the regular players how they feel 14:54 paramat 'just because they broke some rule' 14:54 IhrFussel You treat your players like insects 14:55 rubenwardy no I don't 14:55 lumberJ its quite the opposite. many players treat servers like insects 14:55 paramat server owners are gods of their universes obviously 14:55 lumberJ its something easily joined/easily left 14:55 IhrFussel Why are you only saying "they can switch servers if they don't like it" instead of CONSIDERING a change on the server??? 14:56 lumberJ because i have tried a soft method for many months admining on other peoples servers 14:56 IhrFussel Maybe they are NOT the bad guys, but you server owners make up rules many feel violated in their rights 14:56 lumberJ it doesn't work in my experience 14:56 lumberJ what rights? 14:57 lumberJ they have no rights. its not public property 14:57 IhrFussel Are you serious? Human rights APPLY EVERYWHERE 14:57 rubenwardy they actually don't 14:57 lumberJ lol 14:57 rubenwardy many have exceptions 14:57 lumberJ so their human rights are being violated by server rules 14:57 rubenwardy for example, right to family doesn't apply in priso 14:57 lumberJ they choose to accept them and then break them? 14:57 IhrFussel Are you realy that dumb?? So you think you can KILL someone on your property? 14:57 rubenwardy that isn't a human right 14:57 rubenwardy oh wait it is 14:57 IhrFussel It's a human right to LIVE 14:58 lumberJ you can kill people on your property in many places in the U.S. 14:58 rubenwardy but as a private person, you can't violate someone's human rights 14:58 rubenwardy only governments can do that 14:58 rubenwardy human rights apply to governments, not people 14:58 rubenwardy criminal law is for private people 14:58 lumberJ they also apply to humans not 'players' 14:59 paramat being banned on a server is not relevant to human rights, it's on the level of toddlers squabbling over a toy 15:00 lumberJ its really ok for servers to have differing philosophies about what can be tolerated and what cannot.. 15:01 rubenwardy allowing players to continue to play after violating rules without regard just makes the rules pointless 15:03 paramat if a human right is violated or a law is broken the laws are already there to deal with it, for example, don't make serious death threats to others etc. 15:03 IhrFussel lumberJ, https://www.ejiltalk.org/un-human-rights-council-confirms-that-human-rights-apply-to-the-internet/ 15:04 paramat but does not apply to banned players on servers 15:05 rubenwardy we're still not the government 15:05 rubenwardy exceot kcorK, he's an FBI agent spy 15:06 IhrFussel Well whether or not human rights need to be followed by private persons depends on the country you live in ... in Germany data protection is very strict and so are the rights of each person 15:06 rud0lf can you extract the values that are announced to master server from mod .lua script? 15:06 rubenwardy that's data protection laws 15:07 rubenwardy not related to CoHR 15:08 IhrFussel Like I said it depends on the country and at this point I wish other countries would apply the German laws in this regard ... for example if someone payed for a service and suddenly gets banned the ban is illegal and must be undone 15:09 rubenwardy no one pays in minetest 15:09 IhrFussel In case the ban was for silly reasons* 15:10 kcorK ‮ rubenwardy, can confirm 15:10 rubenwardy saying that, a few people have already bought stuff on my website rubenwardy.com/store 15:11 rubenwardy selling IaPs or CTF 15:11 rubenwardy *for' 15:11 IhrFussel That was an example to explain how "rights" of people are protected here 15:11 paramat even in Europe banning or disciplining players in a server is irrelevant to human rights or the law, everyone knows that by joining a server the server owner can do anything they want within the law 15:12 IhrFussel paramat, that is wrong and doesn't apply in Germany at least ... the owner of the service MUST act responsibly and if they blindly ban people for tiny/silly reasons then the people can complain to the Federal Network Agency 15:13 paramat German laws don't apply to banned or disciplined players 15:13 paramat a server isn't a service 15:13 IhrFussel What?? Of course 15:13 rubenwardy it is 15:13 rubenwardy a free one 15:14 IhrFussel Aynways...if the person didn't pay for the service then it makes little to no sense to tell it the agency cause they will likely not care too much...it's different if money is involved 15:15 paramat (well i mean, not a service payed for) 15:16 IhrFussel But my entire point is: Some (not name calling publicly) server owners treat their players in a pretty bad way and punish them way too much compared to the rule they broke ... and I wonder why that has to be 15:16 paramat .. and we're talking about free servers, as you said they won't care, obviously 15:17 paramat because that's their freedom, just as you have the freedom to run your server as you wish. you may not like other servers but that's as far as it goes 15:17 IhrFussel And now you will tell me "my server, my rules..obey or leave" and that is the issue 15:17 IhrFussel Ignore instead of change 15:18 paramat you have already described these servers you criticise as being 'popular', so, players like them as they are 15:19 IhrFussel Nah that has nothing to do with "more players = players love the server more" ... you do know that the player count on servers is largely random? 15:19 IhrFussel Sometimes I have 25 players online, other times I have 5 players online ... people simply choose the highest ranked server when they open their game 15:19 paramat you're arguing against others having freedom while appreciating your own 15:20 IhrFussel Nobody scrolls through the list to find an empty server 15:20 aerozoic IhrFussel, why not ask these server owners privately, owner to owner, if they would explain without any judgement from you? 15:20 paramat no, players know what they like and will play long term on servers they like 15:21 IhrFussel At least 1 server owner has no forum or IRC account 15:21 IhrFussel One of the server owners I have a problem with* 15:22 IhrFussel And if I would try to connect to their server to talk about it, they would very likely instantly ban me 15:22 IhrFussel From what I heard 15:23 IhrFussel Cause they don't want negative opinions, no critique 15:23 aerozoic Another prejudgement based on 2nd hand info. 15:24 IhrFussel Not any 2nd hand... I know the person who told me that very well 15:24 paramat the whole idea of MT is to be able to freely create your own universe and be an all-powerful god, you may not like what other gods do, but you're taking it too far and arguing against the fundamental idea of MT 15:24 IhrFussel So the idea of MT is "HEY EVERYONE LETS PLAY GODS"??? That sounds stupid 15:25 rubenwardy IhrFussel: odd how CTF is consistently at the top 15:25 rubenwardy if it is random 15:25 IhrFussel CTF servers in general are very popular, yours is not the first popular one ... also you're not someone unknown in the community 15:26 rubenwardy mine is literally the first popular one 15:26 rubenwardy like, I made CTF and my server was the first CTF server 15:26 IhrFussel The same about HOMETOWN... 99% the server only got so popular so fast because the server owner was known in the forums for a very long time (as seen by their post count) 15:26 paramat yes MT is certainly and obviously a 'God simulator' (good name) lol 15:27 rubenwardy maybe there's a correlation between how long the owner has been in the community and how much they make it stand out? 15:27 kcorK This time no text reversal due Regex question: I'd like to convert "https://blah.com/ab/cd.git" to "https://blah.com/ab/cd". What I've got so far: "^(http[s]?://[\w_.-]*/[\w_-]*)(.git|/)" 15:27 kcorK but does anyone know how I would get the contents of the large first parentheses? 15:28 IhrFussel Well my server was one of the most popular BEFORE I created my forum account ... but mst of my active players didn't seem to be part of the "real community" and were more like random mobile players 15:28 rubenwardy most of my players only became active on the on the forums due to the server 15:29 rubenwardy only a few people were already active, and those were the 2 players nicked from Xanadu 15:29 rubenwardy vast majority are Android 15:29 rubenwardy ITB is the only server that has mainly community players 15:29 rubenwardy like, from the forums 15:29 rubenwardy this is because it is a singleplayer game hosted as a server 15:30 IhrFussel My forum thread is pretty much dead so almost nobody on my server seems to have an account there 15:30 rubenwardy so has no incentives for loads of players to join 15:30 rubenwardy it also isn't appealing to the android crowd, unfortunately 15:31 IhrFussel Like I said... it's largely a luck game which server will be on top of the list...or let's say the top 10 of servers are a luck game 15:31 kcorK nvm. found the way using groups to read the contents 15:32 IhrFussel And the extreme jumping between places doesn't help either ... servers can jump from 15th to 5th in a matter of minutes 15:33 IhrFussel Depends on how many "guests" are connected mostly and I wonder if you will eventally change that 15:33 IhrFussel eventually* 15:39 rubenwardy there are a lot of servers 15:39 rubenwardy and not enough players 15:39 rubenwardy so for most I can see it being hard to stand out 15:40 rubenwardy would be good if we could fix scrolling on Android 15:40 rubenwardy and aksi allow a single screenshot per one 15:40 rubenwardy like a youtube icon 15:43 IhrFussel rubenwardy, but right now guests are 95% of mobile players cause they connect via some 3rd-party app that gives them a pre-determined name like "Westguard550" and those players are what makes the servers jump so much ... a popular server with 20+ players has at least 5 of those on average...but even a server with just 5 players could be all those names which means very bad rating 15:45 IhrFussel In my master-server issue someone (maybe it was even you) mentioned the possibility of lowering the penalty from 1/8 pts to 1/2 which sounds better already...but nothing has been commented there since 15:50 xerox123 for remote media do I just run this script at server start https://gist.github.com/sfan5/6351560 and set the remote media link? 16:06 kcorK ‮[off] here's some asshole design http://krock-works.16mb.com/u/holedesign-2018-04-01_18.04.44.mp4 17:11 Fixer kcorK: is that one reversed intentionally? 17:12 kcorK ‮ Fixer, what do you mean? 17:13 Fixer i see 17:14 Fixer i wonder if UN also grants free speech for propaganda 17:39 sofar o_O we've had like 50 new players today on ITB, there's been like 8+ ppl online at the same time 17:43 sofar I think we got some sort of easter sunday school raid ITB, lol 18:18 kcorK ‮ rubenwardy, I'm currently updating the mod search engine. added link checking, so they won't 404 anymore :D 18:18 kcorK ‮congrats sofar! what's the record player count you had so far? 18:21 Shara IhrFussel: Don't you ever stop. 18:21 Shara There is so much wrong with so many things you say that it makes my head hurt. 18:23 Shara Your comments on CTF also prove you just make up stats with nothing real behind them. 18:29 IhrFussel Shara, you simply have another opinion but that doesn't make what I say "wrong" just different... I never mentioned stats but I have my server long enough to know how the server list works and it's not very useful in its current state 18:29 Shara I'm not talking about the server list. 18:29 Shara (6:55:47 PM) IhrFussel: [16:25:23] CTF servers in general are very popular, yours is not the first popular one ... 18:29 Shara That's totally false 18:29 Shara He literally made the game 18:30 Shara Get your facts in order before you go all self-rightous please 18:30 IhrFussel I saw other CTF servers before that were not dead..maybe not as popular as his but I also added that it#s most likely also the fact that he is well known in the community 18:31 rubenwardy my server was offline for about 9 months due to my priorities being elsewhere 18:31 Shara "yours is not the first popular one" Tell mehow his was not the first popular one, when he made it, ran it and it was popular? 18:32 Shara Also this is not about you having another opinion, it's about you trying to ram your opinion down the throats of everyone else to call yourself superior 18:32 IhrFussel I didn't see the CTF server in the list for a LONG time 18:32 IhrFussel Not my fault if he took it offline 18:32 Shara Mostly while making up things about how other people do things. 18:33 IhrFussel Again I never called myself better than you, just "more fair" which seems to be what you dislike although it's technically true 18:34 Shara What I don't like is how you're directing this nonsense toward people who are good admins and who do follow the rules. 18:34 Shara You have said it yourself - the person you have issues with isn't on IRC and doesn't use the forum. 18:36 Shara (Little note about fairness - you have a duty to preserve the rules for victims who get bullied and harrased by other players - if you refuse to ban and so let the abuse continue, you are certainly not fair at all) 18:36 IhrFussel That's not the only server owner I mean..there are others but I simply say there definitely are server owners who treat their players badly and what I think a server owner needs to do to act fair ... you can disagree with what I say all day but my players show me that I am certainly onto something with my behavior...and I'm pretty sure they wish those certain owners would be more like me 18:37 Shara Am I one of those owners? 18:37 Shara Is ruben, is Tommy? 18:38 IhrFussel I never mentioned any names cause that could potentially damage the reputation of the server which I don't try to do 18:38 Shara Then please - stop talking our ears off about 'your' opinions 18:39 IhrFussel Not just my opinions...it's simply the "fair" way to handle a server... you don't need to follow that way but then I won't call your server "fair" 18:40 Shara The joke is that I don't have a single rule that goes against anything you have said 18:40 Shara I also have many alternatives to banning 18:40 Shara Yet you keep insisting you are fairer :) 18:42 IhrFussel I didn't say that I am better than you... the thread was about the general server management not about a perticular server 18:42 IhrFussel particular* 18:42 Shara You directed those comments at me. You've since directed other, equally ridiculous ones, at other people. 18:43 IhrFussel I also do NOT agree with lanniPowerup, I just used that thread to express my feelings about those certain server owners I really hate with a passion because they treat the userbase so horribly 18:43 Shara Going to stop talking to you here though, because everyone else can read perfectly well and I'm sure they're as bored of this as I am 18:45 IhrFussel I seem to have attacked quite a few feelings with my posts 18:45 IhrFussel Or hurt a few feelings* 18:52 Fixer make a mooooooooooove, serverlist is a ----show ;) 18:54 Fixer sofar: maybe that's the reason? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7178#issuecomment-377766582 18:56 kcorK ‮lil. my regular expressions were kind of too regular. it detected en.wikipedia.org/wiki as a git-like service 18:59 * sofar wishes krock returned to FIFO mode again 19:04 sofar Fixer: it's a bunch of kids in a sunday school I think 19:05 rubenwardy Oooh 19:05 rubenwardy I might backport damage reasons to CTF, makes the kill history graph better 19:10 kcorK ‮ sofar, this is FIFO mode.. for me at least. it's the visuals that make it appear that way 19:10 kcorK ‮I can write with the regular speed when using the RTL control character 19:11 sofar I should just mute you for a bit then 19:11 sofar :P 19:12 kcorK ‮awww no! but why? doesn't it look BEAUTIFUL? 19:13 kcorK ‮tomorrow it'll be normal again :D 19:22 shivajiva tfft 19:38 * lisac reads the IRC log. 19:38 lisac yay drama! 19:39 lisac I might backport damage reasons to CTF, makes the kill history graph better 19:39 lisac DOTA2 has a nice system where people can see who did how much damage with what after fights 19:39 kcorK ‮0.4.17 backport? nah, we don't do that 19:39 lisac it tells you what you did right/wrong, why did you die/win. 19:40 lisac for example, if the enemy Necrophos did 1400 damage with Radiance, it's probably a good sign that next time you shouldn't be near him 19:40 lisac though MT CTF is more action and less strategy 19:41 lisac maybe a simple, 'You received 54% damage from ' 19:41 lisac after dying 19:46 lisac lol https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/88rhma/rscience_is_not_doing_april_fools_jokes_instead/dwmpio2/ 19:56 lisac Free Software Foundation is starting a crowdfunding campaign to buy Facebook: https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/free-software-foundation-announces-crowdfunding-campaign-to-buy-facebook 19:57 kcorK ‮it's not funny when they writ "April Fools" in the address 20:02 Fixer totally forgot about that 20:17 tumeninodes Happy Ea.... eh, nvm 20:18 tumeninodes rabbit is on the menu today 20:19 lisac tumeninodes: I've got a pet rabbit 20:22 tumeninodes ahhh, an easier hunt for you then 20:22 tumeninodes j/k 20:23 tumeninodes I had 2 when I was about 11 but sadly found I was massively allergic to them. :( 20:24 tumeninodes wild rabbits are very common here. there is one living under my shed currently 20:24 * shivajiva hands tumeninodes 2 chocolate rabbits 20:24 shivajiva eat those :) 20:24 tumeninodes yum 20:25 tumeninodes spent 2 hours finding those, day before yesterday 20:26 tumeninodes I think lisac is currently plotting my demise 20:26 shivajiva lol we did it today for the kids with clues to get their brains working 20:27 tumeninodes nonsense, kids have no brains :P 20:27 shivajiva trouble with that is you end up thinking in rhymes for hours after xD 20:27 tumeninodes hahaha 20:27 Shara wait, that's not normal? 20:28 Shara Hi tumeninodes :) 20:28 shivajiva at first it's damn hard but once you hit the spot it's hard to stop 20:28 tumeninodes The last year of my kids being into Easter I said "I spy with my little eye some eggs... go find them. Then I went inside :D 20:28 tumeninodes Hi Shara 20:30 tumeninodes This is the first year they are off with their friends, so I figured I'd come bother people here 20:30 Shara I'm sure we can handle it :) 20:31 shivajiva nice :) 20:31 tumeninodes good, cuz I can't stand myself :D 20:32 shivajiva perfectly normal =) 20:32 tumeninodes that's what I keep telling people 20:33 tumeninodes so who's revamping the tools for MTG? 20:35 tumeninodes hearty response..., that's a good sign 20:35 Shara What's that you said? You're volunteering?! 20:35 Shara How wonderful! 20:35 shivajiva ^ 20:35 tumeninodes If I do, there will be no more diamond tools 20:36 tumeninodes or gold for that matter too 20:36 Shara Hah, well, yes, I'd not have those either 20:36 Shara Or those 20:36 tumeninodes those are currency 20:36 Shara Or this silly tree punching 20:36 tumeninodes I mentioned a better way for that 20:36 * Shara quickly hides before being lynched by other MTG devs 20:37 tumeninodes add stones randomly through mapgen 20:37 tumeninodes fashion stone ax with a stick, a stone, and string 20:37 Shara But it's so ugly 20:37 Shara I've never yet seen stones lying around the map that don't look ugly 20:38 tumeninodes Someone did them as small cubes, I thought looked pretty cool 20:38 Shara But they need to be everywhere 20:38 tumeninodes meh, not really 20:38 Shara And on servers... not good to start tool progression with a non-renewable resource 20:39 Shara I played on one server that did it... had to walk for a really long time before I could make a tool because the players that came first had cleared them away 20:39 tumeninodes Hmmm I see 20:40 Shara I always figured that why it starts on wood anyway 20:41 tumeninodes what if a stick, some string, and a stone were provided with on spawn 20:41 tumeninodes wait, that's dumb too 20:42 Shara especially if you drop things when dying 20:42 tumeninodes well in that case, ctf would have a ton of those at spawn, from what I gather :P 20:44 tumeninodes I wonder if it's possible to have those 3 things generate near the player when they spawn in? 20:45 tumeninodes so they can craft a stone ax to start off. It makes more sense than chopping a tree with your hand 20:45 Shara what if they then die and lose the axe? 20:46 tumeninodes well, when you die, you don;t respawn without your hand, do you? 20:46 Shara yea, but then how do they make a new axe? 20:47 tumeninodes the 3 pieces are either generated next to the player on spawn or they spawn with them 20:47 Shara So every time they spawn more random thigns appear? 20:47 Shara things* 20:48 tumeninodes just one stick, one stone, and one piece of string 20:48 tumeninodes close enough they can pick them up and craft their first ax 20:49 Shara May as well just put the items in their inventory after death then and have done 20:49 tumeninodes yes. the point is, either way, it makes more sense than using your hand to cut trees 20:50 Shara Well, pretty much anything would 20:50 tumeninodes one day, were gonna see an epidemic of kids with broken hands IRL... and we'll be partly to blame :D 20:51 tumeninodes Well, "I" think it makes sense... therefore it should just be so. 20:52 paramat messy, better to craft first tools from nodes 20:52 tumeninodes what part is messy? 20:53 tumeninodes it's simply one aspect to get started, so one can progress on to do just that 20:53 paramat your suggestion (sorry) 20:53 Shara Just having stuff appear randomly is... well, yes, messy by definition. 20:55 tumeninodes the idea of having them gen on spawn was a longshot idea 20:55 Shara It's a problem that has been annoying me for a while, and not just for MTG as you know 20:55 tumeninodes but to at least have one of those 3 items to start would not be messy 20:55 paramat tree nodes represent branches too, so it can be thought of as using your hands to break off a branch from a tree, even though this leads to digging trunks 20:55 Shara paramat: Have you checked how I'm handling this on HW? 20:56 paramat then the branch you have is used to hack at some stone, break some bits off, to make first stone tools. there's a rough logic there 20:56 Shara I'm making leaves crafting to sticks, on the reasoning that holding leaves together like that means you have a branch, and stripping the branch gives you a stick 20:56 Fixer "other MTG devs" that_gif_with_travolta.gif 20:56 Shara craftable* 20:56 paramat oh not yet 20:56 tumeninodes the leaves idea makes sense 20:57 paramat leaves to sticks, good idea 20:57 Shara I don't think smacking a stone with a stick makes great sense to get stone though 20:57 tumeninodes but then the "chipping away at stone with wood"... 0_o 20:57 tumeninodes chipping a stone with a stone makes more sense 20:58 tumeninodes thanks Fixer, now I have the BeeGees stuck in my head 20:58 Shara Yes, you would use knapping, stone on stone, to make early stone tools 20:59 Shara I've been thinking about things like loose stones on river beds, or in certain areas that would be easier to collect than solid stone 20:59 paramat well, assume some stone is near-fragmented, use stick to break off bits. there has to be some way to obtain the first stone, and a hefty stick makes more sense than using your hand 20:59 tumeninodes yes, that is what I was trying to get at 21:00 Shara But I don't want some random stone item being placed all over the place 21:00 Shara I'd instead want to consider a looser stone as an ore of sorts 21:00 paramat but then, it's back to the loose stones problem, they look ugly and are few in number 21:01 Shara paramat: not if it's basically treated like a distinct stone node that can take the place of a normal one, and you have clusters of it 21:01 Shara Then it could actually look nice as well 21:01 tumeninodes oh thank God 21:01 Shara heh 21:02 Shara But this won't help MTG's tool mess anyway 21:02 tumeninodes I was referring to Krock 21:02 paramat so by not taking it too literally, and considering the issues, the current MTG way has a kind of logic to it. it's not meant to be realistic 21:02 Krock lol. you're safe again, tumeninodes 21:02 tumeninodes haha 21:02 paramat ah yes, gravel is loose stones as nodes, could have larger pieces 21:03 paramat good idea 21:03 shivajiva stone>leaves>branch>axe>wood seems natural 21:03 tumeninodes gravel... that's true actually 21:03 Shara It's kind of what I'm playing with as an idea for HW anyway 21:04 tumeninodes could have gravel drop usable stones, as well as flint, randomly 21:04 shivajiva gets round having stones lying around 21:04 tumeninodes yay progress 21:05 paramat then you can start with stone tools and simplify, no need for wooden tools 21:05 tumeninodes wait???! was something actually accomplished here? 21:05 Shara And nice, visual_scale actually works just like I hoped it would for plantlike_rooted nodes 21:06 Shara Was half expecting it would make the nodes the plant is in look bigger too :) 21:06 shivajiva unless you need knitting needles paramat 21:06 tumeninodes I need to step back and take this all in... brb 21:06 tumeninodes :D 21:20 tumeninodes wood "could" still be used in tools. The stone ax as mentioned. A sword but, using obsidian for the blades as documented in history 21:20 tumeninodes but I have always felt obsidian should be done as the ores are done 21:21 tumeninodes have stone drop obsidian shards on a random/chance level 21:22 tumeninodes or simply do obsidian ore 21:58 longerstaff13 o/ 22:05 lisac hmm what could we do to make MT combat better? 22:23 longerstaff13-m Yay