Time  Nick         Message
00:08 red-001      the message about minetest.raycast in worldedit is wrong, only 0.5-dev has it, not backport-0.4
12:25 Megaf        Good day
14:50 IhrFussel    Barely anyone helps people in #minetest ... mostly just people who contribute to MT in some way
15:10 ThomasMonroe welp I'm gonna head off for a while cyall later
15:10 Mr-Pardison  cya
15:11 lumberJ      so, question here. map generated via minetest.register_on_generated runs before or after cave gen/tunnel code in v7 mapgen?
15:25 Calinou      (possible only if the build is reproducible, but JavaScript builds should be reproducible nowadays)
15:45 FourFire     CWz, ever hear of standard cracking techniques, like rainbow tables?
15:46 FourFire     basically, they are a collection of the collections of numbers and characters most likely to be used as password and are always tested first
15:47 FourFire     so all one character is pretty early on that list. as are all dictionary words
15:48 FourFire     Oh and when plaintext password databases get pwned all those are added to the list of known used passwords
15:49 FourFire     humans are surprisingly unimaginative
15:49 FourFire     there's plenty of passwords which are used by millions of people
15:54 CWz          plaintext password databases are a stupid idea
15:55 CWz          thankgod i started using an offline password manager.
15:59 Fixer        a lot of people around me suddenly want to go into bitcoin mining? WTF, the bubble is collapsing right now
15:59 Fixer        people never learn
16:00 rubenwardy   I'm hoping that production of GPUs will increase due to increased demand
16:00 Mr_Pardison  Fixer: I'd short sell it since it's declining.
16:00 rubenwardy   then when it flops, there will be loads of new and second hand GPUs for cheap
16:01 Fixer        Mr_Pardison: yet most stupid go into already busting bubble, they have zero trading experience, it is no go
16:01 Fixer        now I need to explain it like I'm Soros or smth
16:02 Fixer        rubenwardy: nah, it will be worse, there will be ton of burn out cards with unpredictable past and future with not friendly price from mommy investor
16:02 Fixer        mommy little investor
16:02 rubenwardy   hey
16:02 rubenwardy   don't be so pesimistic
16:02 rubenwardy   it'll be fiinne
16:03 Fixer        rubenwardy: and they will totally not lie about how that card was used, and sadly GPU has no speedometer
16:03 rubenwardy   well, I'm mostly hoping on the cheaper new GPUs
16:03 Megaf        MinetestBot!
16:03 MinetestBot  Megaf!
16:03 Fixer        rubenwardy: also, seems like even non mining cards can die suddenly even after 5 years of simple use, and now you are talking about 24/7 use cards
16:04 Fixer        rubenwardy: me too, anyway, i will buy SSD
16:04 Fixer        fuck them, i'm staying on X800GTO
16:04 Fixer        older than 80% of minetest community
16:04 Fixer        it was good card back then
16:04 Fixer        surprisingly, even those b e t a drivers work
16:05 Fixer        my old R9600 AGP one sucks a lot compared to X800GTO, at first i was hyped, maybe I can build a retro WinXP PC, but then... fuuuuuuuuuck it needs AGP :(
16:06 Fixer        agp one is half-dead
16:06 Fixer        eh
16:06 Fixer        also, not winxp retro, it is lie, win98se retro ofc
16:07 Fixer        there is TNT Vanta available, but that is ULTRA RETRO
16:07 Fixer        i can't stick it on Pentium 4
16:07 Fixer        silly
16:09 Fixer        maybe I can go with PIII + Vanta, is this r e t r o enough?
16:10 Fixer        rubenwardy: tbh, if you have some spare money, but not much, wait for cheap mbs for i3-8100 and then upgrade, take a 200$ GPU, ssd, past that will probably financial crysis that can affect industry in a bad way
16:10 Fixer        there are bad signs on markets these days
16:11 Fixer        markets are too good without much reasons, bubbles on finance, etc
16:13 Fixer        https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/S_and_P_500_chart_1950_to_2016_with_averages.png
16:13 Fixer        huge potential (for crash)
16:13 Mr_Pardison  Fixer: you're right about the bubble going to burst and soon.
16:14 Fixer        and it will affect us in bad wayhs
16:14 Fixer        here you can see 2001 dotcom one, 2008 financial one/housing, and ofc next one ;)
16:14 Fixer        nah, it will grow forever!11
16:15 Mr_Pardison  I'd check what market is doing the best but it looks on the verge of outgrowing its ability to grow further without a crash.
16:15 Mr_Pardison  if that makes sense.
17:15 Sokomine     Fixer: guess it's just too much money thrown into the market
17:16 Fixer        ridiculously large amount
17:17 Sokomine     yes. with quite a lot of side effects :-(
17:20 Fixer        i hope they will learn 3rd time I guess
17:20 Fixer        hahah
17:20 Mr_Pardison  with his idiocy in charge?
17:20 Mr_Pardison  no way is that happening.
17:23 Fixer        https://i.redd.it/v6wv9cnplxb01.png
17:25 Fixer        http://www.multpl.com/shiller-pe/
17:33 paramat      lumberJ 'on generated' runs after all core mapgen for that mapchunk, however ..
17:35 paramat      core mapgen has a few structures that extend out into neighbouring mapchunks by up to 16 nodes, large caves and dungeons do. so a neighbouring mapchunk can be generated later and these structures can interfere with stuff done in 'on generated'
17:36 paramat      this is why 'is ground content' was added, to prevent your 'on generated' nodes being eaten by cavegen
17:41 Fixer        "Kodak up over 90% after announcing KodakCoinNews (self.investing)"
17:41 Fixer        loooooool
17:42 Fixer        sorry for offtopic
17:46 Fixer        KodakCoin*
17:58 Fixer        "this time it's different"
18:00 cx384        Hello!
18:01 Mr_Pardison  hello.
18:14 Fixer        "The size of smartphone apps has increased by 1000% in 4 years" proud for minetest :)
18:17 lumberJ      lol, paramat, i was afk a timed out right after your first message :D
18:17 lumberJ      what came after "however.."
18:17 paramat      server owners please show support for #6998 a defence against the attacks and useful for limiting world database size. Shara shivajiva VanessaE IhrFussel Megaf
18:17 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6998 -- SAO limits: Allow SAOs to function outside the set 'mapgen limit' by paramat
18:18 Jordach      Fixer: those images are exactly when Bush and Obama got elected, so why not trump
18:18 paramat      lumberJ see http://irc.minetest.net/minetest-hub/2018-02-05#i_5223159
18:18 lumberJ      ok, thanks!
18:18 Fixer        Jordach: it is not like they drove the bubbles
18:18 Jordach      ./shrug
18:19 VanessaE     paramat: I don't use mapgen limiting, and MT needs other work done on entities first imho.
18:20 Jordach      entities first yes
18:20 paramat      partly done #6999
18:20 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6999 -- Item entity: Prevent motion in ignore nodes by paramat
18:20 Jordach      NO
18:20 Jordach      ignore should be treated as air
18:21 Jordach      it breaks carts, cars, any vehicle
18:21 Jordach      that shit should've had a flag to allow clipping with IGNORE or not
18:21 paramat      this is only for item entity
18:21 paramat      dropped nodes
18:21 VanessaE     nbo
18:21 VanessaE     no
18:21 lumberJ      sweet, paramat. so suppose I DO want tunnels to affect my on_generated chunk after my code has ran. Is there a more appropriate lua method to use to load my mapgen before the cavegen does its thing?
18:22 VanessaE     entities should be outright deleted when they hit the world edge
18:22 paramat      but good point about vehicles, will remember that
18:22 VanessaE     (any kind of entity)
18:22 Jordach      paramat: my server runs server_step 0.02
18:23 Jordach      and with jetpacks, you can go above 45 blocks/s
18:23 paramat      lumberJ no
18:23 lumberJ      ok, thanks for your help paramat
18:25 paramat      that could be done, entities could be deleted in ignore nodes
18:27 Shara        Thanks paramat - that is something really needed
18:31 Jordach      inb4 also deletes players
18:32 paramat      that's not planned
20:20 Sokomine     lumberJ: you can't really evade cavegen. it will eat through your structures - if it can. is_ground_content works as a protection
20:21 Sokomine     VanessaE: what about players? or entities with players attached? those need to be taken care of somehow
20:23 Sokomine     lumberJ: i'm currently thinking of a way to preserve the ground (=dirt with grass, sand, plants, ..) for ground directly adjacent to my spawned structures, but success is limited so far. lbms will work - if they are allowed to run on each load
20:30 lumberJ      Thanks Sokomine. i actually have the opposite problem. i am making a realm to be set in the sky and would like it to have tunnel type caves, but they do not generate in my is_ground_content nodes
20:31 lumberJ      but i have just resigned myself to write some code to make my own custom caves/tunnels as part of the mod
20:32 Sokomine     if you *want* cavegen to eat them...why don't you set is_ground_content to true then?
20:32 lumberJ      i have, but no tunnels appear
20:33 Sokomine     maybe it's due to the height. no idea up to which height all these things are generated
20:33 lumberJ      i think as paramat has said, the cave gen runs before minetest.register_on_generated places my map materials
20:33 lumberJ      as i understand tunnels have no height limit. caves can be set in v7 but this has no effect in my case
20:34 lumberJ      i tested this theory by having my realm spawn below ground
20:34 lumberJ      sure enough they are not affected by caves
20:35 Sokomine     hmm. it clearly makes a difference weather i use is_ground_content nodes or not for normal placement in register_on_generated. depending on the setting, cavegen will either remove these nodes or not
20:36 Sokomine     keep in mind that that "eating through existing structures" happens when the neighbouring mapchunk generates and its caves eat through already generated mapblocks
20:37 lumberJ      well, my testing next to the normal ground was limited. but even if that works it doesn't help because this realm isn't meant to spawn next to regular terrain
20:38 Sokomine     what are you trying to achieve anyway?
20:39 lumberJ      Are you familiar with Novacains tron realm mod?
20:39 lumberJ      http://i.imgur.com/6xawTOC.png
20:40 lumberJ      i am making a custom mapgen for it, something different from one include in the modpack
20:40 lumberJ      cubelike chunks spawn in clusters. then ideally some caves and caverns will cut through them
20:40 Sokomine     looks intresting, lumberj. i know the old tron film and have seen those nodes on one server
20:41 lumberJ      i've already started working on some code to make my own tunnels/caves so its not too big of a deal
20:41 lumberJ      i just know performance would be much better if the builtin cavegen handled that stuff
20:41 Sokomine     ah, i see. so your problem is that you can't distinguish between "nothing here; therefore, air" and "cave here; cave-air"
20:42 lumberJ      that sound about right :)
20:42 Sokomine     how if you set your mapgen to singlenode, let it fill the entire mapchunk with some block cavegen *does* like to eat through - and then place your structures only where the placeholder is?
20:42 Sokomine     afterwards, set all remaining placeholders to air
20:44 lumberJ      i could give it a shot, though ultimately, i would like this realm to be able to exist as layer in a map with multiple realms
20:45 lumberJ      but it might be interesting for experimentation's sake
20:46 Sokomine     no idea how to set a diffrent mapgen for diffrent layers or how far that is supported already
20:47 lumberJ      yeah, there is some methods to override mapgen, but not sure if single node fits into that scheme
20:57 Calinou      https://xkcd.com/1942/
20:59 paramat      heh i actually wrote the tronrealm mapgen =)
21:00 lumberJ      i know, i saw that in the forums, paramat :)
21:01 lumberJ      it seems to be one of those not too shabby mods that has mostly been forgotten about
21:01 paramat      singlenode cannot work alongside normal core mapgens
21:02 lumberJ      so i'm taking it under my wing, putting my own spin to it, polishing/trimming the nodes and hope to use it on a future relaunch of my server
21:09 Fixer        lumberJ: heh, for some reason reminded me of this https://youtu.be/YMFBAOjuMWw?t=404
21:13 lumberJ      nice, Fixer. Fun fact: I've never actually watched any Tron films
21:14 lumberJ      I just like the aesthetic
22:08 sofar        seems on-topic chat for this channel
22:08 sofar        discussion of dev efforts including forks... don't see why you'd label it as offtopic
22:09 Shara        I just follow along when it's being done anyway for the most part, or the logs will be senseless :)
22:09 Mr-Pardison  same.
22:10 celeron55    i think forks are always welcome
22:11 celeron55    the best thing about forks is, i don't need to have any idea about what they're doing, just like for mods
22:11 celeron55    or how they plan to make it happen
22:11 celeron55    independence!
22:11 Shara        Heh
22:12 rubenwardy   Forks will die
22:12 rubenwardy   I'm hopeful it doesn't, however
22:12 sfan5        the question is when
22:13 celeron55    they do, but sometimes they do something interesting before dying
22:13 Shara        Would just be nice if such people invested time in fixing MT as well.
22:13 Mr-Pardison  they fear for its future so go and make their own thing.
22:13 Mr-Pardison  why not cmmit to helping improve MT instead?
22:13 Mr-Pardison  *sommit
22:13 Mr-Pardison  *commit
22:14 paramat      voxelskeep? missed chat and logs did not log
22:14 Shara        Minecore
22:14 sfan5        this https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=19597
22:14 paramat      thanks
22:14 * benrob0329 looks
22:15 Mr-Pardison  decent textures.
22:18 paramat      there's another fork too somewhere by unhappy MT contributors :]
22:20 benrob0329   >We fear for the future of an engine with more development than ever, so we forked it to them make everyone not care about the future of our engine instead of making a game that everyone wants off the existing engine
22:22 nerzhul      and like many fork: no coredev, only lua devs, then no real serious
22:22 nerzhul      and it's basically MC textures a little bit modified
22:23 paramat      anyway, good to see this
22:24 sofar        it's good and bad
22:24 sofar        most likely outcome is a lot of time wasted on a fork that is abandoned, and no PRs back upstream to make up for it
22:25 benrob0329   I suppose I just don't understand, we need more good games, not more engine forks
22:26 paramat      i somewhat agree
22:27 celeron55    i suppose it's more like people doing what they like to do, not people doing what should be done
22:27 rubenwardy   The devs are seen as very distant and friendly to many
22:28 paramat      https://github.com/VoxelsKeep is the other recent fork
22:28 paramat      'distant and friendly' =)
22:29 benrob0329   Minetest is a project with volunteer developers, its doing pretty well for that
22:29 rubenwardy   Lol
22:29 celeron55    the only way to change that is to go hang around in the same places as these many hang around; they aren't on this channel for sure
22:29 rubenwardy   Not sure what I meant
22:29 rubenwardy   Unfriendly probably
22:30 rubenwardy   They mention discord
22:30 benrob0329   we just need more game designers and story writers, people who can make Minetest as fun and deep as it is free and open
22:30 rubenwardy   How many of our players are on discord and not on IRC?
22:30 benrob0329   Discord...thats a sad state of reality
22:30 celeron55    rubenwardy: my estimate is, more than there is on IRC to begin with
22:30 rubenwardy   Hmmm
22:31 celeron55    https://www.reddit.com/r/Minetest/comments/76ji7u/unofficial_minetest_discord/
22:31 Shara        Well, if anyone would be serious about trying to help with a subgame, let me know
22:31 celeron55    go there if you need something to begin from
22:32 Shara        Because I do quite strongly feel we need more games
22:32 paramat      we do
22:32 benrob0329   I would like to develop a game, I'm just not focused enough on one project to do so right now
22:32 Shara        And I'm working on mine (which is where the fireflies came from), but it's slow going with only me
22:32 Shara        Or mostly only me
22:33 benrob0329   I'm more than willing to make a model or the like, however
22:33 benrob0329   so if you need one, feel free to ping me on Github or IRC
22:33 Shara        Good to know
22:33 Shara        I'm trying to work on the biomes first
22:34 benrob0329   Mapgen is still above my head, unfortunately
22:34 Shara        But also trying to plan it out so there is meaningful progression, with each biome having differen tresources available
22:34 Shara        different resources*
22:35 Shara        Focus is survival with envonrimental dangers
22:35 paramat      i don't want to hang out on discord naturally =)
22:35 Shara        environmental*
22:37 Shara        benrob0329: models are above mine, so don't worry :)
22:38 celeron55    anyway, games have a really strong closed source culture, it's quite natural that forks and other efforts appear that steer away from MT's kind of strict methods
22:39 celeron55    maybe it's good or maybe it's bad, but one thing is for sure: they wouldn't exist if MT didn't exist as what it is
22:44 celeron55    and, they probably don't really understand it
22:45 celeron55    altough, how do i know
22:46 celeron55    minecore is really good at using new sexy closed platforms
22:46 tumeninodes  (heavy sigh)
22:47 Shara        Hi tumeninodes
22:47 celeron55    which means, it'll attract developers that MT can't reach
22:47 tumeninodes  Hi Shara
22:47 celeron55    then they'll develop it instead of MT
22:48 celeron55    (assuming in actuality there are any, but there's a lot of volume here)
22:48 tumeninodes  they state their goal, is to be/do pretty much what MT is
22:48 tumeninodes  except "everyone is a dev" which will only last so long
22:48 celeron55    i hope they use the same license and write good code
22:49 celeron55    (something tells me that won't happen, but i can always hope)
22:49 tumeninodes  eventually, some of those people will need to become the sort of people sourpusses in mT complain about
22:49 Shara        It does sound a bit like another "we'll accept pretty much anything, so you may as well send stuff to us not MT"
22:50 tumeninodes  the lead registered in Nov 2017 and already this whole shabang... hmmmm
22:51 tumeninodes  anything coming upstream is sort of doubtful but who knows
22:51 sofar        there's 1 commit by octacian, afaics
22:52 tumeninodes  idk, they have him and markubu listed as dev/watchdogs
22:53 tumeninodes  anyway will be good and interesting to keep an eye on
22:56 Shara        Well, I for one will attempt to do something at least slightly useful to MTG with the rest of the night
22:56 Shara        (in other words... I found a thing that annoys me and now I want to change it...)
22:56 tumeninodes  If I were them, I would connect realizing the vast experience here could benefit them as much as some work there may end up beneficial here as well
22:58 tumeninodes  Shara, I have not finished a single building since I started tinkering with modding :P There is always some new idea that pops into the brain
22:58 Shara        I know.
22:58 Shara        My players ask me when I'll build again...
22:59 tumeninodes  and even doing textures... working on something for someone else..., suddenly seem better than the ones I did for myself so.... (mine)
22:59 Shara        Hehe, I still need your help big time on textures if you're interested
23:00 tumeninodes  Of course, I have been working on them... I just said that :D
23:00 tumeninodes  next time your players ask when you'll build again... say "right now" and build with them a little... take a break
23:00 Shara        Hehe, but do you even knowhalf  the biomes I need them for or the colour schemes I'm hoping for yet? :P
23:01 Shara        I know I showed you a couple of little bits
23:01 celeron55    tumeninodes: i guess them contacting us is the only way that can go, as they would probably think a core dev trying to join them to be rather intrusive
23:01 celeron55    s/think/consider/
23:01 tumeninodes  celeron, possibly, give it some time and see
23:02 celeron55    give it some time and there will be nothing to see
23:02 celeron55    lol
23:02 celeron55    :D
23:02 tumeninodes  Shara, make a list and some examples
23:02 tumeninodes  celeron... :P
23:02 Shara        Examples will be difficult in many cases, but lists I can do
23:02 celeron55    anyway, i'll start giving it time now
23:03 tumeninodes  Mah granpappy always told me... no better time to wait.... then now
23:20 rubenwardy   Well, I've signed up
23:21 red-001      rubenwardy, discord is all team offtopic
23:22 rubenwardy   There also some people I don't know
23:23 rubenwardy   There's also a lot of anti-dev sentiment
23:27 red-001      talking about people I don't recognise who is "Oliver"?
23:28 rubenwardy   The admin, no idea who
23:29 celeron55    i think it's good to see some other people playing and developing MT than teachers and 10 year olds
23:30 celeron55    that's where the real future is; no teacher is going to keep this afloat
23:32 red-001      sure but honestly they should just make a Lua subgame
23:32 red-001      and fork the engine if they ever end up needing to
23:33 Shara        Sounds so much less exciting then though, doesn't it?
23:33 red-001      thats the issue isn't it
23:34 red-001      this lets you build it up even if that means it ends up being all build up and not much to show for it at the end
23:34 Calinou      celeron55: I remember when Minecraft-style games were not hip among teachers and education staff :P
23:34 Calinou      (but rather regarded as evil)
23:34 red-001      but enough of me being cynical, good luck to them
23:37 rubenwardy   They're not forking though
23:37 rubenwardy   Apparently
23:37 Calinou      this is nothing new in open source games, by the way
23:37 rubenwardy   Just "making an engine using the code of mt"
23:37 rubenwardy   Just, huh?
23:37 Calinou      some other FOSS games are pretty much developed behind closed doors
23:37 Calinou      (less so nowadays, now that most of them died off…)
23:37 red-001      I wonder why
23:38 Calinou      three words: Steam on Linux
23:57 tumeninodes  It's.... steamy