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IRC log for #minetest-hub, 2018-02-05

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:08 red-001 the message about minetest.raycast in worldedit is wrong, only 0.5-dev has it, not backport-0.4
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12:25 Megaf Good day
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14:50 IhrFussel Barely anyone helps people in #minetest ... mostly just people who contribute to MT in some way
15:10 ThomasMonroe welp I'm gonna head off for a while cyall later
15:10 Mr-Pardison cya
15:11 lumberJ so, question here. map generated via minetest.register_on_generated runs before or after cave gen/tunnel code in v7 mapgen?
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15:25 Calinou (possible only if the build is reproducible, but JavaScript builds should be reproducible nowadays)
15:45 FourFire CWz, ever hear of standard cracking techniques, like rainbow tables?
15:46 FourFire basically, they are a collection of the collections of numbers and characters most likely to be used as password and are always tested first
15:47 FourFire so all one character is pretty early on that list. as are all dictionary words
15:48 FourFire Oh and when plaintext password databases get pwned all those are added to the list of known used passwords
15:49 FourFire humans are surprisingly unimaginative
15:49 FourFire there's plenty of passwords which are used by millions of people
15:52 Mr_Pardison joined #minetest-hub
15:54 CWz plaintext password databases are a stupid idea
15:55 CWz thankgod i started using an offline password manager.
15:59 Fixer a lot of people around me suddenly want to go into bitcoin mining? WTF, the bubble is collapsing right now
15:59 Fixer people never learn
16:00 rubenwardy I'm hoping that production of GPUs will increase due to increased demand
16:00 Mr_Pardison Fixer: I'd short sell it since it's declining.
16:00 rubenwardy then when it flops, there will be loads of new and second hand GPUs for cheap
16:01 Fixer Mr_Pardison: yet most stupid go into already busting bubble, they have zero trading experience, it is no go
16:01 Fixer now I need to explain it like I'm Soros or smth
16:02 Fixer rubenwardy: nah, it will be worse, there will be ton of burn out cards with unpredictable past and future with not friendly price from mommy investor
16:02 Fixer mommy little investor
16:02 rubenwardy hey
16:02 rubenwardy don't be so pesimistic
16:02 rubenwardy it'll be fiinne
16:03 Fixer rubenwardy: and they will totally not lie about how that card was used, and sadly GPU has no speedometer
16:03 rubenwardy well, I'm mostly hoping on the cheaper new GPUs
16:03 Megaf MinetestBot!
16:03 MinetestBot Megaf!
16:03 Fixer rubenwardy: also, seems like even non mining cards can die suddenly even after 5 years of simple use, and now you are talking about 24/7 use cards
16:04 Fixer rubenwardy: me too, anyway, i will buy SSD
16:04 Fixer fuck them, i'm staying on X800GTO
16:04 Fixer older than 80% of minetest community
16:04 Fixer it was good card back then
16:04 Fixer surprisingly, even those b e t a drivers work
16:05 Fixer my old R9600 AGP one sucks a lot compared to X800GTO, at first i was hyped, maybe I can build a retro WinXP PC, but then... fuuuuuuuuuck it needs AGP :(
16:06 Fixer agp one is half-dead
16:06 Fixer eh
16:06 Fixer also, not winxp retro, it is lie, win98se retro ofc
16:07 Fixer there is TNT Vanta available, but that is ULTRA RETRO
16:07 Fixer i can't stick it on Pentium 4
16:07 Fixer silly
16:09 Fixer maybe I can go with PIII + Vanta, is this r e t r o enough?
16:10 Fixer rubenwardy: tbh, if you have some spare money, but not much, wait for cheap mbs for i3-8100 and then upgrade, take a 200$ GPU, ssd, past that will probably financial crysis that can affect industry in a bad way
16:10 Fixer there are bad signs on markets these days
16:11 Fixer markets are too good without much reasons, bubbles on finance, etc
16:13 Fixer https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7​e/S_and_P_500_chart_1950_to_2016_with_averages.png
16:13 Fixer huge potential (for crash)
16:13 Mr_Pardison Fixer: you're right about the bubble going to burst and soon.
16:14 Fixer and it will affect us in bad wayhs
16:14 Fixer here you can see 2001 dotcom one, 2008 financial one/housing, and ofc next one ;)
16:14 Fixer nah, it will grow forever!11
16:15 Mr_Pardison I'd check what market is doing the best but it looks on the verge of outgrowing its ability to grow further without a crash.
16:15 Mr_Pardison if that makes sense.
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17:15 Sokomine Fixer: guess it's just too much money thrown into the market
17:16 Fixer ridiculously large amount
17:17 Sokomine yes. with quite a lot of side effects :-(
17:20 Fixer i hope they will learn 3rd time I guess
17:20 Fixer hahah
17:20 Mr_Pardison with his idiocy in charge?
17:20 Mr_Pardison no way is that happening.
17:23 Fixer https://i.redd.it/v6wv9cnplxb01.png
17:25 Fixer http://www.multpl.com/shiller-pe/
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17:33 paramat lumberJ 'on generated' runs after all core mapgen for that mapchunk, however ..
17:35 paramat core mapgen has a few structures that extend out into neighbouring mapchunks by up to 16 nodes, large caves and dungeons do. so a neighbouring mapchunk can be generated later and these structures can interfere with stuff done in 'on generated'
17:36 paramat this is why 'is ground content' was added, to prevent your 'on generated' nodes being eaten by cavegen
17:41 Fixer "Kodak up over 90% after announcing KodakCoinNews (self.investing)"
17:41 Fixer loooooool
17:42 Fixer sorry for offtopic
17:46 Fixer KodakCoin*
17:51 cx384 joined #minetest-hub
17:58 Fixer "this time it's different"
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18:00 VanessaE joined #minetest-hub
18:00 cx384 Hello!
18:01 Mr_Pardison hello.
18:14 Fixer "The size of smartphone apps has increased by 1000% in 4 years" proud for minetest :)
18:16 lumberJ joined #minetest-hub
18:17 lumberJ lol, paramat, i was afk a timed out right after your first message :D
18:17 lumberJ what came after "however.."
18:17 paramat server owners please show support for #6998 a defence against the attacks and useful for limiting world database size. Shara shivajiva VanessaE IhrFussel Megaf
18:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6998 -- SAO limits: Allow SAOs to function outside the set 'mapgen limit' by paramat
18:18 Jordach Fixer: those images are exactly when Bush and Obama got elected, so why not trump
18:18 paramat lumberJ see http://irc.minetest.net/minet​est-hub/2018-02-05#i_5223159
18:18 lumberJ ok, thanks!
18:18 Fixer Jordach: it is not like they drove the bubbles
18:18 Jordach ./shrug
18:19 VanessaE paramat: I don't use mapgen limiting, and MT needs other work done on entities first imho.
18:20 Jordach entities first yes
18:20 paramat partly done #6999
18:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6999 -- Item entity: Prevent motion in ignore nodes by paramat
18:20 Jordach NO
18:20 Jordach ignore should be treated as air
18:21 Jordach it breaks carts, cars, any vehicle
18:21 Jordach that shit should've had a flag to allow clipping with IGNORE or not
18:21 paramat this is only for item entity
18:21 paramat dropped nodes
18:21 VanessaE nbo
18:21 VanessaE no
18:21 lumberJ sweet, paramat. so suppose I DO want tunnels to affect my on_generated chunk after my code has ran. Is there a more appropriate lua method to use to load my mapgen before the cavegen does its thing?
18:22 VanessaE entities should be outright deleted when they hit the world edge
18:22 paramat but good point about vehicles, will remember that
18:22 VanessaE (any kind of entity)
18:22 Jordach paramat: my server runs server_step 0.02
18:23 Jordach and with jetpacks, you can go above 45 blocks/s
18:23 paramat lumberJ no
18:23 lumberJ ok, thanks for your help paramat
18:25 paramat that could be done, entities could be deleted in ignore nodes
18:27 Shara Thanks paramat - that is something really needed
18:31 Jordach inb4 also deletes players
18:32 paramat that's not planned
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20:20 Sokomine lumberJ: you can't really evade cavegen. it will eat through your structures - if it can. is_ground_content works as a protection
20:21 Sokomine VanessaE: what about players? or entities with players attached? those need to be taken care of somehow
20:23 Sokomine lumberJ: i'm currently thinking of a way to preserve the ground (=dirt with grass, sand, plants, ..) for ground directly adjacent to my spawned structures, but success is limited so far. lbms will work - if they are allowed to run on each load
20:30 lumberJ Thanks Sokomine. i actually have the opposite problem. i am making a realm to be set in the sky and would like it to have tunnel type caves, but they do not generate in my is_ground_content nodes
20:31 lumberJ but i have just resigned myself to write some code to make my own custom caves/tunnels as part of the mod
20:32 Sokomine if you *want* cavegen to eat them...why don't you set is_ground_content to true then?
20:32 lumberJ i have, but no tunnels appear
20:33 Sokomine maybe it's due to the height. no idea up to which height all these things are generated
20:33 lumberJ i think as paramat has said, the cave gen runs before minetest.register_on_generated places my map materials
20:33 lumberJ as i understand tunnels have no height limit. caves can be set in v7 but this has no effect in my case
20:34 lumberJ i tested this theory by having my realm spawn below ground
20:34 lumberJ sure enough they are not affected by caves
20:35 Sokomine hmm. it clearly makes a difference weather i use is_ground_content nodes or not for normal placement in register_on_generated. depending on the setting, cavegen will either remove these nodes or not
20:36 Sokomine keep in mind that that "eating through existing structures" happens when the neighbouring mapchunk generates and its caves eat through already generated mapblocks
20:37 lumberJ well, my testing next to the normal ground was limited. but even if that works it doesn't help because this realm isn't meant to spawn next to regular terrain
20:38 Sokomine what are you trying to achieve anyway?
20:39 lumberJ Are you familiar with Novacains tron realm mod?
20:39 lumberJ http://i.imgur.com/6xawTOC.png
20:40 lumberJ i am making a custom mapgen for it, something different from one include in the modpack
20:40 lumberJ cubelike chunks spawn in clusters. then ideally some caves and caverns will cut through them
20:40 Sokomine looks intresting, lumberj. i know the old tron film and have seen those nodes on one server
20:41 lumberJ i've already started working on some code to make my own tunnels/caves so its not too big of a deal
20:41 lumberJ i just know performance would be much better if the builtin cavegen handled that stuff
20:41 Sokomine ah, i see. so your problem is that you can't distinguish between "nothing here; therefore, air" and "cave here; cave-air"
20:42 lumberJ that sound about right :)
20:42 Sokomine how if you set your mapgen to singlenode, let it fill the entire mapchunk with some block cavegen *does* like to eat through - and then place your structures only where the placeholder is?
20:42 Sokomine afterwards, set all remaining placeholders to air
20:44 lumberJ i could give it a shot, though ultimately, i would like this realm to be able to exist as layer in a map with multiple realms
20:45 lumberJ but it might be interesting for experimentation's sake
20:46 Sokomine no idea how to set a diffrent mapgen for diffrent layers or how far that is supported already
20:47 lumberJ yeah, there is some methods to override mapgen, but not sure if single node fits into that scheme
20:57 Calinou https://xkcd.com/1942/
20:59 paramat heh i actually wrote the tronrealm mapgen =)
21:00 lumberJ i know, i saw that in the forums, paramat :)
21:01 lumberJ it seems to be one of those not too shabby mods that has mostly been forgotten about
21:01 paramat singlenode cannot work alongside normal core mapgens
21:02 lumberJ so i'm taking it under my wing, putting my own spin to it, polishing/trimming the nodes and hope to use it on a future relaunch of my server
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21:09 Fixer lumberJ: heh, for some reason reminded me of this https://youtu.be/YMFBAOjuMWw?t=404
21:13 lumberJ nice, Fixer. Fun fact: I've never actually watched any Tron films
21:14 lumberJ I just like the aesthetic
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22:08 sofar seems on-topic chat for this channel
22:08 sofar discussion of dev efforts including forks... don't see why you'd label it as offtopic
22:09 Shara I just follow along when it's being done anyway for the most part, or the logs will be senseless :)
22:09 Mr-Pardison same.
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22:10 celeron55 i think forks are always welcome
22:11 celeron55 the best thing about forks is, i don't need to have any idea about what they're doing, just like for mods
22:11 celeron55 or how they plan to make it happen
22:11 celeron55 independence!
22:11 Shara Heh
22:12 rubenwardy Forks will die
22:12 rubenwardy I'm hopeful it doesn't, however
22:12 sfan5 the question is when
22:13 celeron55 they do, but sometimes they do something interesting before dying
22:13 Shara Would just be nice if such people invested time in fixing MT as well.
22:13 Mr-Pardison they fear for its future so go and make their own thing.
22:13 Mr-Pardison why not cmmit to helping improve MT instead?
22:13 Mr-Pardison *sommit
22:13 Mr-Pardison *commit
22:14 paramat voxelskeep? missed chat and logs did not log
22:14 Shara Minecore
22:14 sfan5 this https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=14&t=19597
22:14 paramat thanks
22:14 * benrob0329 looks
22:15 Mr-Pardison decent textures.
22:18 paramat there's another fork too somewhere by unhappy MT contributors :]
22:20 benrob0329 >We fear for the future of an engine with more development than ever, so we forked it to them make everyone not care about the future of our engine instead of making a game that everyone wants off the existing engine
22:22 nerzhul and like many fork: no coredev, only lua devs, then no real serious
22:22 nerzhul and it's basically MC textures a little bit modified
22:23 paramat anyway, good to see this
22:24 sofar it's good and bad
22:24 sofar most likely outcome is a lot of time wasted on a fork that is abandoned, and no PRs back upstream to make up for it
22:25 benrob0329 I suppose I just don't understand, we need more good games, not more engine forks
22:26 paramat i somewhat agree
22:27 celeron55 i suppose it's more like people doing what they like to do, not people doing what should be done
22:27 rubenwardy The devs are seen as very distant and friendly to many
22:28 paramat https://github.com/VoxelsKeep is the other recent fork
22:28 paramat 'distant and friendly' =)
22:29 benrob0329 Minetest is a project with volunteer developers, its doing pretty well for that
22:29 rubenwardy Lol
22:29 celeron55 the only way to change that is to go hang around in the same places as these many hang around; they aren't on this channel for sure
22:29 rubenwardy Not sure what I meant
22:29 rubenwardy Unfriendly probably
22:30 rubenwardy They mention discord
22:30 benrob0329 we just need more game designers and story writers, people who can make Minetest as fun and deep as it is free and open
22:30 rubenwardy How many of our players are on discord and not on IRC?
22:30 benrob0329 Discord...thats a sad state of reality
22:30 celeron55 rubenwardy: my estimate is, more than there is on IRC to begin with
22:30 rubenwardy Hmmm
22:31 celeron55 https://www.reddit.com/r/Minetest/comme​nts/76ji7u/unofficial_minetest_discord/
22:31 Shara Well, if anyone would be serious about trying to help with a subgame, let me know
22:31 celeron55 go there if you need something to begin from
22:32 Shara Because I do quite strongly feel we need more games
22:32 paramat we do
22:32 benrob0329 I would like to develop a game, I'm just not focused enough on one project to do so right now
22:32 Shara And I'm working on mine (which is where the fireflies came from), but it's slow going with only me
22:32 Shara Or mostly only me
22:33 benrob0329 I'm more than willing to make a model or the like, however
22:33 benrob0329 so if you need one, feel free to ping me on Github or IRC
22:33 Shara Good to know
22:33 Shara I'm trying to work on the biomes first
22:34 benrob0329 Mapgen is still above my head, unfortunately
22:34 Shara But also trying to plan it out so there is meaningful progression, with each biome having differen tresources available
22:34 Shara different resources*
22:35 Shara Focus is survival with envonrimental dangers
22:35 paramat i don't want to hang out on discord naturally =)
22:35 Shara environmental*
22:36 redblade7 joined #minetest-hub
22:37 Shara benrob0329: models are above mine, so don't worry :)
22:38 celeron55 anyway, games have a really strong closed source culture, it's quite natural that forks and other efforts appear that steer away from MT's kind of strict methods
22:39 celeron55 maybe it's good or maybe it's bad, but one thing is for sure: they wouldn't exist if MT didn't exist as what it is
22:44 celeron55 and, they probably don't really understand it
22:45 celeron55 altough, how do i know
22:46 celeron55 minecore is really good at using new sexy closed platforms
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22:46 tumeninodes (heavy sigh)
22:47 Shara Hi tumeninodes
22:47 celeron55 which means, it'll attract developers that MT can't reach
22:47 tumeninodes Hi Shara
22:47 celeron55 then they'll develop it instead of MT
22:48 celeron55 (assuming in actuality there are any, but there's a lot of volume here)
22:48 tumeninodes they state their goal, is to be/do pretty much what MT is
22:48 tumeninodes except "everyone is a dev" which will only last so long
22:48 celeron55 i hope they use the same license and write good code
22:49 celeron55 (something tells me that won't happen, but i can always hope)
22:49 tumeninodes eventually, some of those people will need to become the sort of people sourpusses in mT complain about
22:49 Shara It does sound a bit like another "we'll accept pretty much anything, so you may as well send stuff to us not MT"
22:50 tumeninodes the lead registered in Nov 2017 and already this whole shabang... hmmmm
22:51 tumeninodes anything coming upstream is sort of doubtful but who knows
22:51 sofar there's 1 commit by octacian, afaics
22:52 tumeninodes idk, they have him and markubu listed as dev/watchdogs
22:53 tumeninodes anyway will be good and interesting to keep an eye on
22:56 Shara Well, I for one will attempt to do something at least slightly useful to MTG with the rest of the night
22:56 Shara (in other words... I found a thing that annoys me and now I want to change it...)
22:56 tumeninodes If I were them, I would connect realizing the vast experience here could benefit them as much as some work there may end up beneficial here as well
22:58 tumeninodes Shara, I have not finished a single building since I started tinkering with modding :P There is always some new idea that pops into the brain
22:58 Shara I know.
22:58 Shara My players ask me when I'll build again...
22:59 tumeninodes and even doing textures... working on something for someone else..., suddenly seem better than the ones I did for myself so.... (mine)
22:59 Shara Hehe, I still need your help big time on textures if you're interested
23:00 tumeninodes Of course, I have been working on them... I just said that :D
23:00 tumeninodes next time your players ask when you'll build again... say "right now" and build with them a little... take a break
23:00 Shara Hehe, but do you even knowhalf  the biomes I need them for or the colour schemes I'm hoping for yet? :P
23:01 Shara I know I showed you a couple of little bits
23:01 celeron55 tumeninodes: i guess them contacting us is the only way that can go, as they would probably think a core dev trying to join them to be rather intrusive
23:01 celeron55 s/think/consider/
23:01 tumeninodes celeron, possibly, give it some time and see
23:02 celeron55 give it some time and there will be nothing to see
23:02 celeron55 lol
23:02 celeron55 :D
23:02 tumeninodes Shara, make a list and some examples
23:02 tumeninodes celeron... :P
23:02 Shara Examples will be difficult in many cases, but lists I can do
23:02 celeron55 anyway, i'll start giving it time now
23:03 tumeninodes Mah granpappy always told me... no better time to wait.... then now
23:20 rubenwardy Well, I've signed up
23:21 red-001 rubenwardy, discord is all team offtopic
23:22 rubenwardy There also some people I don't know
23:23 rubenwardy There's also a lot of anti-dev sentiment
23:26 sniper338 joined #minetest-hub
23:27 red-001 talking about people I don't recognise who is "Oliver"?
23:28 lumberJ joined #minetest-hub
23:28 rubenwardy The admin, no idea who
23:29 sniper570 joined #minetest-hub
23:29 celeron55 i think it's good to see some other people playing and developing MT than teachers and 10 year olds
23:30 celeron55 that's where the real future is; no teacher is going to keep this afloat
23:32 red-001 sure but honestly they should just make a Lua subgame
23:32 red-001 and fork the engine if they ever end up needing to
23:33 Shara Sounds so much less exciting then though, doesn't it?
23:33 red-001 thats the issue isn't it
23:34 red-001 this lets you build it up even if that means it ends up being all build up and not much to show for it at the end
23:34 Calinou celeron55: I remember when Minecraft-style games were not hip among teachers and education staff :P
23:34 Calinou (but rather regarded as evil)
23:34 red-001 but enough of me being cynical, good luck to them
23:35 sniper338 joined #minetest-hub
23:37 rubenwardy They're not forking though
23:37 rubenwardy Apparently
23:37 Calinou this is nothing new in open source games, by the way
23:37 rubenwardy Just "making an engine using the code of mt"
23:37 rubenwardy Just, huh?
23:37 Calinou some other FOSS games are pretty much developed behind closed doors
23:37 Calinou (less so nowadays, now that most of them died off…)
23:37 red-001 I wonder why
23:38 Calinou three words: Steam on Linux
23:57 tumeninodes It's.... steamy
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