Minetest logo

IRC log for #minetest-hub, 2017-11-30

| Channels | #minetest-hub index | Today | | Google Search | Plaintext

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:06 paramat joined #minetest-hub
00:53 CWz joined #minetest-hub
01:18 FourFire How do I detect whether a block is on fire, (for an ABM)?
01:18 FourFire When my mod is done it's gonna be a killer on the CPU
01:19 FourFire I'll have to figure out how to actually program like a real coder and optimize all my functions
01:25 FourFire For now, I made it activate using flowing lava.
01:53 paramat set 'neighbour' to fire:basic_flame ?
01:53 paramat *neighbors
01:54 FourFire thanks paramat
01:57 benrob0329 paramat: any way of using the mapgen to generate corridors without the use of schematics?
01:57 FourFire I'm having trouble with this ABM: https://hastebin.com/ufapohihic.lua
01:58 FourFire Lines 15/16 seem to be crashing for some reason
01:59 benrob0329 I suppose on_generate with vmanip and some math would work
02:03 paramat FourFire that's unreadable code, work on indents and line length. are you missing the final '})' to close the ABM registration?
02:04 FourFire nope if I comment out those two lines it runs
02:04 FourFire I'll work on indents
02:05 benrob0329 FourFire: you need to let your code breath man
02:05 benrob0329 Put some spacing lines in every now and again :-)
02:05 FourFire I could put it all on one line and it would run
02:05 paramat benrob yes use LVM in on generate with some maths, just like a lua mapgen works
02:05 FourFire the formatting is only for the sake of the programmer, correct?
02:06 paramat no heh
02:06 benrob0329 FourFire: and everyone who comes after him
02:06 FourFire the programmer, yes.
02:06 paramat for reviewers and anyone who wants to read and understand it
02:06 FourFire Okay, how about you fix the formatting for that block so I can see how it should be done?
02:06 paramat erm ..
02:07 FourFire and I'll fix my mod to that standard
02:07 paramat you have to learn yourself how to format lua, read MTG files
02:08 paramat we're not here to do your work for you
02:08 FourFire That's fine and I can read my code fine, for not having touched programming until this week.
02:08 FourFire I'll comment it more.
02:11 paramat remeber to use the 'mapgen object voxelmanip', good example https://github.com/paramat/roadv​alleys/blob/master/init.lua#L172
02:11 paramat *remember
02:12 paramat FourFire no surprise you can read your own code, but no one else can
02:12 benrob0329 FourFire: good luck in a month
02:19 FourFire paramat, benrob0329 is this any better: https://hastebin.com/eroxumurot.lua
02:19 FourFire Oh yeah ignore the last line comment, that's a feature I have yet to figure out first.
02:22 paramat 'then' is wrongly placed. lines should be no longer than 80-90 columns (with tab size 4). i still can't read some lines in my browser window due to length
02:23 paramat best to also paste the closing brackets of the ABM
02:25 FourFire any idea why line 16 fails to produce a table?
02:26 paramat well line 16 is a search that only searches one node at 'pos'
02:27 paramat area wrongly defined
02:27 FourFire that's true
02:27 FourFire it's supposed to be the node that the AMB originates from
02:27 FourFire it's supposed to self destruct/turn into default:stone
02:33 FourFire hah figured it out, it was the wrong node
02:38 paramat no need to search for it then, just 'set node' at pos
02:41 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
03:56 greeter joined #minetest-hub
03:59 neinwhal joined #minetest-hub
04:41 FourFire well my mod is now published, if rather informally I wonder if anyone will do anything with it: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme​nts/369123175583186964/385648764054​011915/FourFire_nano_mod_1.0.0.7z
05:45 benrob0329 FourFire: https://hastebin.com/kolitoyohu.lua
05:45 benrob0329 something closer to that
05:45 benrob0329 ofc I use tabs normally but hastebin doesn't do tabs apparently
05:47 benrob0329 Also discord...just..eww
06:56 nerzhul joined #minetest-hub
08:00 CWz joined #minetest-hub
08:57 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
08:57 Megaf Greetings folks
08:57 Megaf I'm very happy so far with Firefox 57, Apache 2 and PHP 7
09:00 Megaf Youtube is not working fantastically well on Firefox though
09:12 tenplus1 joined #minetest-hub
09:12 tenplus1 hi folks
09:15 shivajiva Hi tenplus, Megaf
09:15 Megaf Hi tenplus1
09:15 tenplus1 hi Megaf
09:16 Megaf Hi shivajiva
09:17 * shivajiva sips hot milk with cinnamon and honey, it's a tad chilly out there today
09:17 tenplus1 hi shiva... yo got a cold dude ?
09:17 nerzhul joined #minetest-hub
09:17 tenplus1 hi nrz
09:18 nerzhul hi
09:18 Amaz Hello everyone :)
09:19 tenplus1 hey amaz
09:25 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
09:26 Megaf 3C here this morning
09:26 tenplus1 nice n toasty :))  0c here
09:26 Amaz -2C here :)
09:27 * tenplus1 makes ice at Amaz's house
09:27 Megaf 2C yesterday when I went home from college at 8:50 PM
09:27 Megaf Amaz, no need to spend money in electricity to chill your food!
09:27 Amaz Heh :P
09:27 Amaz Although it does need to be heated to keep it from freezing ;)
09:28 Megaf tenplus1, I think we should visit Amaz and make some ice cream outside
09:28 tenplus1 ooh, sounds like a plan
09:29 Amaz Too cold for icecream :P
09:29 Megaf Amaz, expect us this weekend
09:29 tenplus1 it's never too cold for ice cream :D
09:29 Megaf agreed ^
09:29 Amaz xD
09:37 tenplus1 does new new 0.5 player model support minecraft 1.7 AND 1.8 skins ?
09:39 Megaf I need ice cream now
09:40 neinwhal joined #minetest-hub
09:40 tenplus1 hi neinwhal
09:40 ShadowNinja joined #minetest-hub
09:40 tenplus1 hi ShadowNinja
09:41 neinwhal hey tenplus1
09:41 Megaf Is Shadow still alive?
09:42 tenplus1 hope so :P
09:44 shivajiva heh no cold, I just like the taste
09:44 tenplus1 mmm, honey & lemon with ginger sounds nice about now
09:45 shivajiva ofc it's tainted by the fact the honey is contaminated with pesticide
09:46 tenplus1 nuuuuuuuuu
09:46 shivajiva all honey on the planet contains nicotinoids now
09:46 tenplus1 *shakes fist at pesticides*
09:50 shivajiva tenplus are you following pr #6718
09:51 tenplus1 disable all for csm
09:52 shivajiva yup
09:52 tenplus1 +1'd it... we do need a kill switch for csm loading on client...
09:53 shivajiva this is a mess, why isn't the dev who instigated it providing the support to add the feature
09:54 Megaf CSM should have never made into the code in the first place
09:54 Megaf At least not with a way of getting disabled.
09:54 Amaz CSM shouldn't ever have allowed client provided mods, just server sent mods...
09:55 tenplus1 csm could have been good if implemented from server only
09:55 tenplus1 Connect to server -> here's a mod to run client-side -> okie dokie
09:55 Megaf tenplus1, that's how I thought it would work when we first talked about that long time ago
09:55 Amaz Yup
09:55 tenplus1 yeah, but clients are using it to cheat and that makes me sad
09:55 Megaf I was actually thinking it was a good idea back in the day
09:55 sfan5 pretty that is also how the plan looked like before work on CSM even started
09:55 Megaf all heavy stuff could be done client side freeing up server
09:56 Megaf but man, clients deciding the mods? No, just no.
09:57 Megaf So my point is, we remove CSM for now from the code, entirely. And we work on a better implementation. In a different branch
09:57 tenplus1 +100
09:57 tenplus1 have 0.5.0 stable and useable and maybe after than 0.5.1 can re-implement a proper working csm
09:59 neinwhal joined #minetest-hub
10:01 tenplus1 am still putting faith in 0.5.0 being a huge stepping stone for mt
10:02 Megaf I copied your text and pasted there https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/issues/6699#issuecomment-348140053
10:02 Megaf Will remove if you not happy with it
10:03 Megaf Just thought it could be interesting.
10:03 tenplus1 das ok :)
10:04 Megaf Github hiding the nicks because < >
10:04 tenplus1 ehehe, it knows!!!!!
10:04 Megaf Fixed
10:04 shivajiva given it has been included, why isn't the modifications being handled by it's creator, surely he's in the best position to instigate the changes required to disable it
10:04 VanessaE_ joined #minetest-hub
10:04 tenplus1 hi Vanessa
10:04 Megaf shivajiva, any idea who was the creator>
10:04 Megaf ?
10:05 sfan5 shivajiva: probably since nrz has limited time to spend on MT currently
10:05 Megaf Ahah, That's why he defends CSM so much
10:05 Megaf it was his idea
10:06 tenplus1 nrz, good idea, badly implemented... sorry dude
10:06 shivajiva so if he had a 10 min conversation with another dev about how to do it...instead he's stood off watching the proceedings
10:06 sfan5 >volunteer run project
10:07 sfan5 "why isn't he doing this and that?????"
10:08 shivajiva just trying to understand why he's stepped away from the task
10:09 Megaf We had a better CSM implantation but it was stepped over. https://github.com/minetest/min​etest/pull/4577#issue-181205385
10:10 Megaf I *think* server had control over that one
10:11 shivajiva 0.4.16 was a bad move in terms of the holes created and it looks like a hit and run from over here atm
10:18 bwarden joined #minetest-hub
10:19 tenplus1 wb bwarden
10:36 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
10:37 tenplus1 wb
10:38 Megaf Thanks
10:38 Megaf interesting https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/6718#issuecomment-348145457
10:40 nore Just a quick question, but it is a problem if CSM is running but all its API calls are disabled?
10:40 tenplus1 o/ nore
10:40 nore Hi :)
10:40 nore (or rather, most of them, except ie those that can't affect the server but are essential such as those used for death formspec)
10:41 tenplus1 death formspec ?
10:41 Megaf Hi nore, long time no see
10:41 nore Hi Megaf! Yeah, not very active lately
10:42 nore Lots of stuff to do :)
10:43 nore tenplus1: yes, I seem to remember nerzhul saying something about it
10:43 tenplus1 is it anything to do with https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1342
10:43 nerzhul honestly, CSM implementation is good, the flavour are good, some user usage is bad. The only error we did is we don't have flavour support in 0.4.16 which can heal the hemoragy
10:44 Megaf Nothing that takes control from you is good
10:44 nerzhul nore, disable all calls can have a problem, if i remember death formspec has been migrated to the CSM builtin lua stack permitting CSM mods to override it like we did with SSM inventory formspec
10:45 sfan5 nerzhul: but isn't paramats PR actually fine? since builtin is still loaded to death formspecs still works, it essentially just prevents client mods from being loaded
10:46 nerzhul sfan5, maybe it can be good, but i don't guarantee side effet if you use flavours for this, as it's not the CSM enable bool flag
10:46 sfan5 i see
10:46 nerzhul i think if you want to use a such thing you should use a function to check both bool flag & flavour byteflag and use it everytime you check the bool flag
10:47 nerzhul this thing will try to disable mods loading, but if you add code to builtin CSM on various places you can make it work like a rogue mod (like the hated oredetect)
10:51 tenplus1 which is why I'd rather have CSM removed completely for 0.5.0 and have it re-implemented properly
10:52 tenplus1 it's bad enough that bogus clients can use minetest servers, but giving them the slightest chance to run unsecure csm mods is a no no
10:53 nore ^ well, a possible solution is to check the hash of the builtin file
10:53 nerzhul tenplus1, the CSM implementation is good, the problem is what users can do with API
10:53 nore That way, users can't change the file without recompiling
10:53 nerzhul nore, it's not a single file, but it can be done yes
10:53 tenplus1 that's the issue, what they can DO with it... meaning it's not secure
10:53 Megaf[College] nerzhul, you wont admit is not good will ya?
10:53 Megaf[College] Get over it
10:53 * Megaf[College] runs
10:53 nerzhul i admit you are a kid
10:54 nerzhul and i admit i don't like to talk with you as you just see things in white or black, never in gray
10:54 tenplus1 who ? me or megaf ?
10:54 nerzhul CSM implementation is nice, CSM API is nice, but some possibilities are used by users to cheat on servers, and flavour fix them, just enable flavour or look at missing flavour instead of complaining
10:55 nerzhul tenplus1, -> Megaf[College]
10:55 nerzhul the only thing you need is flavours
10:55 nerzhul they fix your points
10:55 nerzhul but 0.4.16 doesn't have it
10:55 tenplus1 can we please have a properly implemented flavour to disable csm entirely ?
10:55 nerzhul entierely is not possible but mod loading is possible
10:56 sfan5 tenplus1: that's exactly what the PR is aiming at and I don't think that would be rejected
10:56 tenplus1 can it be hacked to re-laod mods ?
10:56 nore The thing is anyway, we can never ever prevent the client from executing things like oredetect, which are simple to do in C++; of course, CSM currently lowers the entry barrier, but you will never be able to limit more than CSM flavours
10:56 nerzhul tenplus1, if you recompile your own client you can, but it's like very cheating when you have access on binary source code.
10:57 nerzhul like the hacked client we saw before any wild CSM appears :p
10:57 Megaf[College] tenplus1, boycott time is it?
10:57 tenplus1 and like I said before, it takes 1 person with the know-how to change the code, compile a hacked version and release to the masses
10:57 Megaf[College] some people just can't change their minds and see things from a different perspective
10:57 sfan5 tenplus1: it was always like that, CSM does not change that
10:57 nore tenplus1: yes, and that is true regardless of csm
10:57 Megaf[College] nerzhul, how many servers do you have? And for how long have you been running them?
10:58 nerzhul tenplus1, yeah, but this person can release a hacked client, like it's already the case, but anyway, just add the flavour proposed by t0ny2 it's reasonable
10:58 tenplus1 it was bad enough players coming onto Xanadu and stealing from LOCKED chests
10:58 nerzhul FLAVOUR_DISABLE_MOD_LOADING
10:58 sfan5 oh yes the locked chest issue again
10:58 nerzhul it's nice, no code hack
10:58 nerzhul sfan5, lol :p
10:58 sfan5 tenplus1: that was a bug and is not the fault of csm
10:58 nore tenplus1: that's a mod bug
10:58 sfan5 also you still haven't shown how to reproduce it
10:59 nerzhul if you can steal thing which is stored server side, it's ALWAYS server side issue
10:59 tenplus1 0.4.16 july 19th build running csm, go onto server, punch locked chest, take item
10:59 sfan5 yeah and the csm mod used to do that?
11:00 tenplus1 opening a client formspec for a specific node using "main" inventory doesnt necesseraly check server on_take on_move etc... it's a new formspec
11:00 nore tenplus1: it does check it
11:00 sfan5 no no
11:00 sfan5 can you please just post the full exact code so someone can reproduce and fix this?
11:01 tenplus1 am not posting chest_inspector anywhere, I dont want ppl getting hold if this nonsense
11:01 nore tenplus1: just privmsg it to core devs
11:01 sfan5 ^
11:01 tenplus1 might do later, gonna play with 0.5.x for now
11:02 nore tenplus1: do you want it fixed or not?
11:02 nerzhul tenplus1, in fact on_take and on_move server callbacks should see if the user is allowed to do that
11:02 nerzhul if you do that only on server formspec opening it's ridiculous :)
11:02 sfan5 i don't get this
11:02 sfan5 multiple server owners keep complaining about CSM citing the locked chests bug
11:02 nerzhul it's like if in a web page you have a login page, and you allow user to see http://example.org/admin.php without being logged if he changes the URL
11:03 sfan5 while NONE of them want to work with coredevs to fix it
11:03 tenplus1 hold on, will give u pastebin of csm mod
11:03 tenplus1 2 mins, gotta get from other desky
11:05 tenplus1 who wants link:  sfan5, nore, celeron ?
11:05 sfan5 PM it to me, please
11:05 tenplus1 done...  back laters...
11:05 tenplus1 left #minetest-hub
11:11 sfan5 unsurprisingly it does not work
11:11 sfan5 0.4.16 both mt + mtg does not allow you to take from locked chests
11:12 nerzhul sfan5, maybe it's not standard mtg locked chests ?
11:12 sfan5 the mod has support for a few other nodes too but the comments list the commits in which it has been fixed
11:13 sfan5 (it's the "chest_inspector" mod you have probably already seen)
11:49 lisac_ joined #minetest-hub
11:52 Shara sfan5: if I could reproduce it, I would GLADLY work with you to fix it in anyway I could.
11:52 sfan5 and i would gladly fix it
11:52 Shara I've seen Ten take things from chests I placed, but I can't in turn reproduce it, even when using the exact code he sent me
11:53 Shara Which leaves the only option of it being version or even weirdly OS related somehow.. and I just don't know.
11:53 Shara I did ask him to look into it more because if there is a big, I want it fixed
11:53 Shara But please don't assume we're all unwilling to work with you on these things
11:54 shivajiva ^
11:56 Shara I think CSM should never have been added in its current form, and completely support it being removed until such a time as it can be reimplemented properly, and I will argue down any dev or other person who tries to tell me I don't have the right to decide the gameplay on my own server, but my interest is in fixing things, not fighting.
11:59 sfan5 Shara: this happens with default:locked_chest right?
11:59 Shara From what I've been able to gather
12:00 Shara I wasn't here much this morning or would have tried to find more out from Ten
12:00 Megaf[College] joined #minetest-hub
12:04 shivajiva looking at the history it was locked/protected/mailbox initially before the fixes were merged, I can't reproduce it either fwiw
12:28 benrob0329 joined #minetest-hub
12:38 IhrFussel joined #minetest-hub
12:38 IhrFussel Hello there
12:41 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
12:48 CBugDCoder joined #minetest-hub
12:53 Aello joined #minetest-hub
13:13 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
13:22 nerzhul joined #minetest-hub
13:24 Jordach joined #minetest-hub
13:25 Mr_Pardison joined #minetest-hub
13:28 Fixer joined #minetest-hub
13:39 RobbieF joined #minetest-hub
13:48 Megaf Hi Mr_Pardison Fixer RobbieF
13:48 RobbieF hey Magaf, how you been?
13:48 Mr_Pardison greetings.
13:49 Megaf RobbieF, Fighting with Linux
13:49 Megaf apt says disk full, dd and df says otherwise
13:49 Mr_Pardison I hope it's not Fedora.
13:49 Megaf Mr_Pardison, Debian and CentOS
13:55 Mr_Pardison Why is it called tourist season if we aren't allowed to hunt them?
13:56 Calinou fhi :)
13:56 Calinou -f
13:57 RobbieF Megaf type: df -h - which is 100%?
13:57 RobbieF guessing /var?
13:57 RobbieF or /boot?
13:58 Megaf nope, all free
13:59 RobbieF so where are you seeing "full"?
13:59 RobbieF gui?
13:59 RobbieF pastebin the output of df -h
14:01 Megaf RobbieF, I have the guys on #Debian at OFTC trying to help me with this too
14:02 Megaf RobbieF, you have to believe me, df reports more than enough space available
14:02 Megaf apt update on Debian is complaining of not having space
14:03 Megaf Err:2 http://deb.debian.org/debian unstable/main amd64 Packages
14:03 Megaf Error writing to output file - write (28: No space left on device) Error writing to file - write (28: No space left on device) [IP: 151.101.0.204 80]
14:03 Megaf E: Failed to fetch http://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/​unstable/main/binary-amd64/Packages  Error writing to output file - write (28: No space left on device) Error writing to file - write (28: No space left on device) [IP: 151.101.0.204 80]
14:04 RobbieF I'd still like to see df -h  :) and have you run df -h wrapped in watch during the update to monitor it?
14:05 Megaf[College] will try that, hold on
14:05 RobbieF ie., watch df -h
14:05 RobbieF and what about your inodes?
14:05 sniper338 joined #minetest-hub
14:06 RobbieF like, what does it show when you type df -i
14:07 RobbieF use watch df -i while running apt upgrade
14:07 Megaf[College] did that
14:08 Megaf[College] use one inode more wile running and I get the inode back when apt finishes failing
14:08 Megaf[College] by the way, df http://paste.debian.net/plain/998335
14:09 RobbieF intriguing
14:09 RobbieF so the inode use never spikes during the update?
14:11 Megaf[College] not at all
14:14 CBugDCoder joined #minetest-hub
14:15 RobbieF is apt in a clean state? Could it be broken packages causing this?
14:15 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
14:22 Jordach Megaf[College], https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGXERfhe-Oo
14:22 Jordach you think your RPI is slow? :^)
14:23 Megaf[College] Jordach, actually I dont :P
14:23 Megaf[College] 3dfx voodoo :D
14:25 Megaf[College] I'm amazing Windows 7 kernel works without MMX
14:25 Megaf[College] I'm amazing Windows 7 kernel works without MMX and SSE
14:26 Jordach what's what i've been implying about W10
14:26 Jordach windows can run on even lower end pieces of shit compared to Linux
14:29 Megaf[College] I wonder if Windows ships with different kernels and just selects the best by its init/boot loader, or if it just loads modules as needed to support new CPUs or what
14:29 Jordach have you seen the shit i did to my W10 install?
14:30 Jordach yes, it's probably modularized to the goddamn moon and back
14:30 Jordach (my W10 is in need of re-installing, but it keeps on going without dying)
14:31 Megaf[College] Windows 10 is running terribly bad in VBox here
14:31 Megaf[College] very slow
14:31 Megaf[College] I think in part because I can only give it 1 GB of RAM
14:32 Jordach Megaf[College], https://i.imgur.com/UvU5TiN.png
14:32 Jordach i don't need to pay for windows again
14:34 Jordach and no, the license cost me nothing
14:34 Jordach (it's not KMS either)
14:36 Jordach (it's not a W7 upgrade either)
14:40 Megaf[College] I have no idea if I have any key associated to my account, should have
14:40 Jordach Windows Update & Security -> Activation
14:40 Jordach under PC Settings
14:41 Megaf[College] I dont have windows man
14:41 Megaf[College] not with my account at least
14:41 * benrob0329 skims backlog
14:41 Megaf[College] I have 1 VM for Windows 10 Creators, Pro N, 1VM for 7 Enterprise and 1 VM for Server 2008 R2 Enterprise
14:45 Fixer_ joined #minetest-hub
14:50 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
14:53 ThomasMonroe how do I check the IP of a player?
14:56 benrob0329 ThomasMonroe: player:get_ip() I believe
14:56 Megaf Gotta love my colleges wifi
14:57 ThomasMonroe I mean from in-game
14:57 benrob0329 ThomasMonroe: write a mod for it I suppose
14:57 benrob0329 I don't think there is a chatcommand for it right now
14:58 Megaf ThomasMonroe, check the log
14:58 Megaf it shows there
14:58 ThomasMonroe ok so its player:get_ip("playername")
14:58 ThomasMonroe right?
14:59 CBugDCoder no tre it is just player:get_ip
14:59 ThomasMonroe nvmd
14:59 benrob0329 ThomasMonroe: if your calling it from the player object I don't think you need to specify the name
14:59 ThomasMonroe nvmd I just did a whois XD
15:00 CBugDCoder which by the way tre is a mod
15:00 ThomasMonroe ik XD
15:04 * Jordach starts creating some automation for Solar Plains
15:05 Jordach https://jordach.net/images/bkcilhhrqkzdjwxhxn.png
15:06 Jordach the whole reason for that warning marker is for identifying the object to be automated
15:11 benrob0329 Jordach: its amazing what you can to with some model placement
15:12 Jordach benrob0329, the block breakers code stretches back to 2013
15:12 Jordach as a stopgap measure for a skyblock
15:14 Jordach i'm just giving it that 2017 paintjob it deserves
15:24 RoaryTiger joined #minetest-hub
15:32 FourFire How do I make the subgame MC2 a depend for my mod?
15:32 FourFire where do I find the title is it just the folder name?
15:36 Jordach lmao
15:36 Jordach you can't depend on subgames
15:36 Jordach only mods
15:36 Jordach if you know the list of mods MC2 comes with, then depend on those
15:37 Mr_Pardison joined #minetest-hub
15:40 compunerd joined #minetest-hub
15:44 FourFire well damn I only need the nodes
15:49 benrob0329 I have realized that Sam's idle animation make no sense
15:50 benrob0329 If you stand up, and do what you would expect an idle to be, you'll probably look around and shift your weight around on your hips
15:51 benrob0329 If you do what Sam does you'll do 1 hump per second and rotate your whole body around to look at your surroundings
15:53 benrob0329 sofar: can the head movement idea you had be done in Lua?
15:55 benrob0329 For that matter, can you control just one bone of an entities animation while leaving the rest animated?
16:10 sofar you can but it makes no sense, the engine can do it 10x more efficient
16:10 sofar also, it's already done
16:24 Jordach benrob0329, sofar: this thing does something related to input; https://jordach.net/images/pevsacfevjjduiuhnl.png
16:27 benrob0329 sofar: head movement is already done for 0.5?
16:28 benrob0329 Jordach: I like that you're doing the text in the texture, rather than using the default font (which IMHO does not fit the rest of the game)
16:28 benrob0329 Custom fonts should be a thing.
16:28 Jordach benrob0329, and unlike the default text
16:29 Jordach it scales to screens properly
16:29 Jordach even at 1080p+
16:29 Jordach it's still that 12pt font
16:29 benrob0329 Along with font rendering for textures
16:53 * RoaryTiger is hidden
16:54 RoaryTiger Anyone running 0.5 server already?
16:54 * Jordach is
16:56 * Mr_Pardison doesn't even run a server but just watches and learns about things here
16:59 RobbieF left #minetest-hub
16:59 RoaryTiger Im very likely going to 0.5, 0.4 seems to be too messed up
17:01 RoaryTiger going homr
17:04 Mr_Pardison joined #minetest-hub
17:09 Mr_Pardison left #minetest-hub
17:13 Mr_Pardison joined #minetest-hub
17:22 FourFire So I'm trying to make my mod compatible with MC2 and I'm getting: ...\mods\mc2plus-master\mc_biomes/ores.lua:55: attempt to call field 'layer_to_y' (a nil value)
17:23 FourFire Line 55 is: energy = tonumber(nano_data:get_string("Energy"))
17:23 FourFire so the first time I'm loading a local int from mod storage
17:24 FourFire does MC2 use different mod storage?
17:26 Roger9 idea:
17:26 Roger9 minetest logo should have a small chance to say "minteast" instead
17:33 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
17:48 Krock joined #minetest-hub
17:49 benrob0329 FourFire: is there an actual Energy value?
17:49 benrob0329 Or are you trying to load nothing?
17:49 FourFire I initialize it before hand
17:50 FourFire this works fine with my mod which is dependent on default blocks
17:50 benrob0329 In mod storage?
17:50 FourFire I'm just trying to translate it to MC2 blocks
17:50 FourFire yes I do: if nano_data:get_string("Energy") == "" then
17:50 FourFire nano_data:set_string("Energy", "0")
17:50 benrob0329 Not the variable, the actual string in mod storage
17:51 FourFire The initalization sets it to 0, no?
17:51 benrob0329 FourFire: if there isnt a value in mod storage it will be set to nil
17:52 FourFire yep, which means the initialization is not working for some reason, right?
17:52 benrob0329 So while you may initialize the energy variable, you probably dont initialize the value in mod storage
17:53 benrob0329 But you probably dont want to reset it value every time either
17:53 benrob0329 So I would make the function return 0 if energy is nil.
17:54 benrob0329 Aka, if (energy) return energy else return nil
17:55 FourFire doesn't the line of code I paste above initialize the storage first, then this line:
17:55 FourFire energy = tonumber(nano_data:get_string("Energy"))
17:55 FourFire afterwards loads the mod storage value into the local int.
18:00 FourFire benrob0329, do you know who in here is most in charge of MC2, perhaps i can talk with them
18:00 benrob0329 FourFire: nil != empty string
18:00 benrob0329 Nod storage isnt game specific
18:00 benrob0329 Its an engine thing
18:00 * Krock Nods
18:00 FourFire can i use the || operator inside if statements?
18:01 Krock FourFire, in C++, C and C# yes. Lua: no.
18:01 FourFire I don't understand why it works with one mod but not the other
18:01 benrob0329 FourFire: use the actual word or
18:01 Krock use "and" and "or"
18:01 FourFire it's literally the same mod but with node names changed
18:01 benrob0329 that's probably not the problem
18:01 benrob0329 New world, new values
18:02 FourFire what is this "layer_to_y" thing then?
18:03 benrob0329 FourFire: ohh
18:03 benrob0329 Your mod is not the problem
18:03 benrob0329 MC2 is broke
18:03 benrob0329 I should've read the error message more carefully
18:03 FourFire Oh I'll try an earlier version of MC2 then
18:04 Mr_Pardison afk lunch
18:04 FourFire where should i submit the bug report, on the MC2 thread, MC2 github?
18:05 benrob0329 FourFire: github
18:06 Krock ensure that you mention @Wuzzy2 as often you can to trigger them
18:07 Krock not really no. it'll show up in their notifications anyway ;)
18:08 sofar benrob0329: you can already do head movement in lua (player_anim mod)
18:09 nerzhul joined #minetest-hub
18:09 benrob0329 sofar: thats not the point though
18:10 benrob0329 The player_anim mod hand animated everything
18:10 benrob0329 *animates
18:10 sofar obviously it's better to do this in the engine
18:10 benrob0329 My question is can you leave everything but a specific bone to normal animation?
18:10 benrob0329 Yes, in engine with smoothing and niceness is better
18:10 sofar don't see why not
18:11 sofar but tbh I don't know the code that well
18:15 sofar smoothing, maybe, even without it would be fine I think
18:15 sofar the body rotation is where it gets tricky, but visually appealing much more
18:17 benrob0329 I feel like you'd need to make the head the parent bone, and have tge body inherit rotation (after a certain amount of rotation)
18:18 benrob0329 So, reverse the parenting of the skeleton and put rotation locks on the neck
18:19 benrob0329 I dont think we have the physics to do that though
18:23 sofar the best way to model and animate is to make the hip bone of a model the root
18:23 sofar that way, if the head moves, the body doesn't
18:24 sofar if you do it the other way around, the whole body moves if you rotate the head
18:24 sofar and then you have to rotate the body *back*
18:24 ThomasMonroe what would happen if the head was a separate entity?
18:24 sofar if the head isn't connected to the body, nothing happens to the body if you rotate the head
18:24 sofar (with the hip being the root)
18:25 Jordach sofar, lmao, my model doesn't do that
18:25 sofar btw, player_anim does it the hard way
18:25 sofar since the default character model is setup wrong in that way
18:25 Jordach there is a bone before the body bone (known as root, aka parent of all bones)
18:25 sofar i'm certain Jordach didn't make that mistake
18:25 Jordach my armature has a proper root bone
18:26 Jordach where the body can rotate independantly of the root
18:26 sofar yes, that also solves it
18:26 Jordach arms, legs and head have the body as parent, root is just to move it
18:26 benrob0329 sofar: but we want the head to rotate before the body, not the other way around
18:26 Jordach benrob0329, local rotation TM
18:26 sofar "before" ?
18:27 sofar you don't want head movement also rotating the body
18:27 benrob0329 The head should move before the body starts to
18:27 Jordach then the head should be parented to the root bone, benrob0329
18:27 sofar that's phase 2 of head movement
18:27 sofar phase 1: head rotation (tilt/pan)
18:27 sofar phase 2: lazy body movement
18:28 sofar if a player stands still, and looks around - head rotates
18:28 benrob0329 So you just want to do all the rotation manually, in engine
18:28 sofar if a player moves - body rotates the right way
18:28 Jordach benrob0329, https://i.imgur.com/bAGTZah.png
18:28 sofar it's not manual if the engine does it, really
18:29 benrob0329 I'm saying this could be done with rotation constraints
18:30 Jordach benrob0329, constraints in blender yes
18:30 Jordach constraints in exported models no
18:30 Darcidride_ joined #minetest-hub
18:31 benrob0329 Thus my comment earlier about how MT doesnt have the stuff to do it
18:31 benrob0329 But if rotation constraints were a thing, it would allow for better animation in general
18:32 Jordach benrob0329, my model is the final word in character models
18:32 Jordach https://i.imgur.com/2z5fPlL.png
18:32 Jordach it has a mesh for 64x32
18:33 Jordach one for armour in 64x32, a shield, and the 64x64 layer
18:36 Krock why are diamonds always shown in turquoise color? Too bright and colorized
18:41 sofar the whole idea of armor covering evrything is terrible
18:41 benrob0329 Krock: because white diamonds would be too realistic
18:42 Mr_Pardison they could come in a variety of shades depending on the depth the spawn at but in creative it would only have one shade.
18:42 Mr_Pardison just my 2 cents.
18:42 Krock sofar, more decent shading and a higher resolution would improve that, wouldn't it?
18:43 sofar no
18:43 sofar armor should be supplemental to the skin visually
18:43 sofar not replace it
18:44 Krock that's an overlay texture. perhaps are the layers not thick/distanced enough?
18:44 sofar "am I hitting Jill or Jack? All these skins look the same when covered in diamond armor? *shrug* *whacks*"
18:44 Krock oh, that's what you meant. I see.
18:45 FourFire I think the game could benefit a lot from having additonal sounds for sounded actions, but I recognize the difficulty of recording them
18:45 sofar play on "inside the box" with headphones on, and tell me what sounds you're still missing
18:46 benrob0329 sofar: UI sounds
18:47 benrob0329 I actually thought about making an issue for that today
18:47 sofar skip UI sounds for now (but sure)
18:47 Krock benrob0329, we already have one for that somewhere
18:47 benrob0329 Button clicks and such for the main menu, like a game would have
18:47 sofar it's actually easy
18:47 benrob0329 And maybe some quite, chill menu music for MTG
18:47 Krock (regarding client-sided button feedback)
18:47 benrob0329 Just because that's what people will first see
18:48 sofar benrob0329: well ITB doesn't need those, it has those
18:49 benrob0329 Also, what if the first screen you saw was Play/Play Online
18:50 sofar we was talking sounds, ye of short concentration
18:51 sofar I've spent a lot of time working on the soundscape for ITB, so I'd like to use it as a future reference for other projects
18:52 sofar hence the request for feedback and see if it misses sounds
18:52 sofar afk a bit
19:05 twoelk joined #minetest-hub
19:10 * Jordach creates a util function
19:10 Jordach a truncator for facedir /4
19:10 Jordach (well, param2 / 4)
19:15 * twoelk wonders wether Jordach ever considered sharing his Blender knowledge on the wiki
19:15 Jordach i'd fry the noobs minds
19:15 twoelk :-D
19:15 Mr_Pardison their brains taste better sauted in a brown butter sauce.
19:15 Jordach blender is the emacs of the 3d modeling software world
19:16 twoelk some nice screenshots with remarks might be an easy start
19:17 * Mr_Pardison sees no one got his joke and that he should get some better material
19:19 Mr_Pardison left #minetest-hub
19:23 Mr_Pardison joined #minetest-hub
19:26 rubenwardy left #minetest-hub
19:27 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
19:28 Megaf Greeings gentlemen and two ladies.
19:28 Megaf Greetings*
19:29 Mr_Pardison Greetings, fellow homo sapien
19:31 Megaf Some people don't quite believe I'm homo sapiens
19:31 * twoelk imagines aliens making first contact via irc
19:31 * Megaf hide
19:31 Mr_Pardison *gasps* you're not human?
19:32 Megaf I tried to prove I'm human to some people yet they don't believe I am
19:32 Megaf So yeah
19:35 twoelk not much of the place exists my parents claim to have been born, all destroyed  in ww2, so no proof of my family's origin on earth :-D
19:36 Mr_Pardison DNA might help.
19:36 Mr_Pardison Nat Geo and Ancestry.com both have decent holiday offers.
19:38 twoelk hm, but then I wouldn't be able to make mysterious remarks
19:39 IhrFussel joined #minetest-hub
19:39 Mr_Pardison I'd get one just to see where I'm from but I still won't know where I'm going.
19:42 twoelk my family claims to be able to track ancestors to about the napoleonic wars. he seems to have disrupted the area somewhat
19:45 Jordach got a strange bug
19:45 Jordach two different functions
19:45 Jordach and a node timer
19:46 Jordach they copy pos into their own local, yet edit one another when used together
19:46 Jordach https://gist.github.com/Jordach/​15cef28c52e76a4d61808fa02a1ff199
19:47 sfan5 local npos = pos will not create a copy
19:47 sfan5 use table.copy()
19:48 Jordach you'd expect it to copy irregardless
19:49 Mr_Pardison codehs.com is really dumb.
19:50 Mr_Pardison doing HTML right now (EASY!) and I didn't have to put any links in nor image sources and it took it to be right.
19:50 Sokomine joined #minetest-hub
19:51 sfan5 Jordach: the problem with languages like lua is that there is no explicit indicator whether something is a reference or a value
19:51 Jordach sfan5, for a scripting language that says it's C but a scripting language seems to lie like theresa may
19:52 * Jordach drinks bleach
19:52 Mr_Pardison o/ Sokomine
20:04 IhrFussel table.copy() only copies the first level of a table? Or is that definition deprecated?
20:06 CBugDCoder joined #minetest-hub
20:07 sfan5 not sure
20:08 sfan5 don't we have table.deepcopy()?
20:10 sofar it deepcopies afaik
20:10 sofar would be terrible if it didn't deepcopy by default
20:24 IhrFussel sofar, the lua docs I found say it doesn't deepcopy, MT's lua_api.txt mentions deepcopy
20:25 sofar submit a documentation fix?
20:26 sofar and test it, of course
20:26 sofar I could be full of it
20:26 sofar print(dump(table.copy({a = { b = "deepcopy!"}})))
20:29 IhrFussel I'm guessing standard lua doesn't even have "table.copy" so MT likely implements it manually with deep copy
20:30 IhrFussel The lua docs just say "A generic table.copy function is not guaranteed to suit all use-cases, as there are many different aspects which must be selected for the specific situation. For example: should metatables be shared or copied? Should we check userdata for a __copy metamethod? These questions (as well as many others) must be asked and answered by the developer."
20:31 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
20:38 benrob0329 sofar: thinking about the main menu made me thing about how the main menu needs some work
20:39 sofar why are you bothering me about the main menu thing?
20:39 sofar I never wanted to talk about it
20:39 sofar :P
20:41 benrob0329 heh
20:44 sofar (not that it isn't a problem or needs work)
20:48 Mr-Pardison got my minimap to be completely black on d/l!
20:48 Mr-Pardison pretty neat.
20:51 * benrob0329 posted a file: minetest_main_menu_idea.png (45KB) <https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/down​load/matrix.org/dmwosCYPPUOZKjJaRNOqMATP>
21:02 Krock The mod & texture pack overview plus all the settings in one button? duh
21:11 benrob0329 Krock: Organized settings would help :-)
21:12 benrob0329 rather than advanced settings being where everything is dumped, we could organize them in a proper settings panel
21:13 benrob0329 heck, we could just take the categories from Advanced settings and turn them into tabs and sub-tabs
21:21 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
21:32 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
21:55 benrob0329 https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/3818#issuecomment-348332793
21:58 Grandolf_ joined #minetest-hub
22:05 IhrFussel Regarding the "CSM can access locked chests" I highly think that your chest mod(s) simply don't have allow_metadata_inventory_put/take/move callbacks with proper owner checking
22:06 IhrFussel Many chest modders are too lazy to really put that owner check in EACH of those callbacks
22:07 IhrFussel CSM requires you to do that, or else your chests/storage nodes will get compromised sooner or later
22:13 nerzhul IhrFussel, it's not CSM which require that, it's just... you
22:14 nerzhul SSM mods security cannot be compromised by CSM as they run on different machines
22:14 nerzhul if a mod is lazy coded, it's just shitty lazy coded
22:14 IhrFussel nerzhul, CSM made this more necessary...I'm not saying that's a bad thing
22:15 nerzhul IhrFussel, yeah it has a nice side effects, modders can be attacked like PHP apps can be easily attacked by tweaking HTTP requetss with firefox console :p
22:15 IhrFussel Before CSM it was almost impossible (without very good c++ knowledge) to access metadata of nodes without permission
22:16 IhrFussel And server owners/modders knew that so they likely got lazy there...and now it bites them back
22:19 IhrFussel I'm neutral regarding CSM ... I don't love it and I don't hate it... I see at least a couple of good uses for it (for example when server and clients work together) and I was one of those who complained about the idea of completely disabling CSM with no way to enable it server-side
22:20 Grandolf_ joined #minetest-hub
22:20 benrob0329 As of right now server provided csm does not exist, and client provided csm is used for cheating
22:20 IhrFussel And I gotta admit it helped me with a few security risks in certain mods ... benrob0329 servers can already communicate with clients AFAIK some client mods do it ... so it enhances certain gameplay
22:21 benrob0329 IhrFussel: but you have yo manually install them
22:21 benrob0329 *to
22:21 benrob0329 CSM should have waited until 0.5 imho
22:22 Grandolf_ joined #minetest-hub
22:22 Grandolf_ joined #minetest-hub
22:22 IhrFussel Yes that's the painful part of it... and will hopefully be improved soon
22:22 IhrFussel I agree there...CSM should have released with 0.5.0 but who knows if flavors would've been added then... I think the feature was only added cause of negative feedback
22:23 IhrFussel No CSM = no negative feedback
22:24 IhrFussel It's just very very unfortunate that server owners who don't want to switch to 0.5.0 yet can only hope that no CSM will damage their server
22:26 IhrFussel When 0.5.0 releases server owners will only have 2 options: 1. Upgrade and lose ~ 90% of your userbase but have CSM restrictions or 2. Stay on 0.4.X with your old userbase and be vulnerable to all kinds of CSM
22:26 sfan5 damage
22:26 sniper338 joined #minetest-hub
22:26 sfan5 do you also fear that ordinary cheaters "damage" your server?
22:28 IhrFussel sfan5, damage is relative to what kind of server the "cheater" joins... on a creative server I doubt that stealing from chests is seen as bad ... but on a survival server where players are supposed to gather their materials by hard work...absolutely
22:28 sfan5 okay waitr
22:28 sfan5 here's a PSA: no mention of the locked chest issue unless it has been reproduced by devs
22:28 sfan5 since it's not even confirmed please stop using it as an argument everywhere
22:29 IhrFussel There are other examples like ore_detect ... it's not just 1 type of CSM that could "damage" a server..it's quite a few and I'm sure some are yet to be created
22:29 paramat joined #minetest-hub
22:30 sfan5 oredetect is a legitimate problem, i agree
22:31 Grandolf solution for oredetect is to use UFI codes
22:32 Grandolf in all your ores
22:32 IhrFussel CSM definitely lowered the barrier to spam (hi mod) and other cheating ... but like I said there are also usecases where CSM enhances the game ... it has both sides
22:32 Grandolf a pain, and untested
22:33 IhrFussel Can you even use that code in /giveme then ?
22:33 Grandolf IhrFussel i dont really care for CSM myself, but now that its been implemented, its not easy to take out, since people will just not update
22:33 Grandolf no IhrFussel
22:34 Grandolf but if you have unified inventory you should still be able to pul stuff out
22:34 IhrFussel Then it's useless...admins/moderators need to be able to get items via /give and /giveme ... there are items that are hidden from the inventory
22:35 Grandolf then refer to previous comment: now that its been implemented, its not easy to take out, since people will just not update
22:35 IhrFussel Also not only will clients just not update, big servers will very likely not update soon either... tenplus1 mentioned that he will upgrade to 0.5.0 when it releases but not every server owner wants to take the risk of losing LOTS of players
22:37 IhrFussel I mean *who* will want to upgrade to 0.5.0 as player if there are only very few servers (first) that support the client ... the only hope is the big Android re-design
22:38 Grandolf 5.0 doesn support previous versions?
22:38 Jordach sofar
22:39 Jordach i have functional pipeworks minus the entity lag
22:39 IhrFussel 0.5.0 raised the minimum protocol version to 36 AFAIK and 0.4.16 is protocol version 32
22:39 sofar so, no entities?
22:39 Jordach entirely entityless and feels exactly like MC hoppers, without the only going downards part
22:39 sofar animated textures and smart UV mapping?
22:40 Jordach not a fan of those
22:40 IhrFussel 0.4.17 will also stay on version 32 I'd guess since there will be no breaking feature implemented...just a few smaller ones + bugfixes
22:41 IhrFussel I can test it right now if I find a 0.5.0 server..one sec
22:42 IhrFussel Grandolf, confirmed I get an error that the server requires version 36 and my client only supports 25-35
22:43 Grandolf kk
22:44 IhrFussel So yes, 0.4.16/0.4.17 cannot connect to 0.5.0 (unless the server owner manually edits the min_protocol_version which would cause many bugs or even crashes)
22:45 IhrFussel Am I right? @ core devs
22:46 Amaz IhrFussel: I'm not a core dev, but from what I understan, yup, that's right. 0.4.16 can't connect to 0.5.0 servers.
22:47 Amaz (And 0.5.0 can't connect to 0.4.16 servers)
22:48 IhrFussel Amaz, I know but I wanted to know what IF a server owner edits the c++ hard coded minimum protocol version to say 32 which would (theoretically) support 0.4.16 again
22:48 shivajiva it does seem to hinge on the droid client and the fact 0.4 was spoiled just prior to 0.5 could be seen by some individuals as an intentional move to undermine the security of 0.4 whilst making breaking changes.
22:49 Amaz IhrFussel: Ah, okay. I think that would crash the client before/as it joined.
22:50 Jordach >starts recording demo
22:50 Jordach >crash
22:50 IhrFussel If nerzhul's ASIO PR gets merged before release the networks will be completely incompatible so older clients couldn't even connect to a 0.5.0 server ... I just remembered that PR
22:53 Shara What worries me is if there ends up being more than one compatibility breaking version in a row... 0.5 is already going to make all kinds of fun
22:53 Shara Personally I don't want to rush into 0.5... more than one server owner is only in a hurry to get it thanks to CSM...
22:53 shivajiva ASIO doesn't make it into 0.5 it's been delayed for testing I believe
22:54 Shara So we'll have two compat breaking releases in a row?
22:54 shivajiva :)
22:54 IhrFussel shivajiva, 0.5.0 will not release before Feb 2018
22:54 Shara And given the public server list is usually showing servers of at least three versions... I pity the players
22:55 Amaz If the ASIO is going to be merged, it should be before 0.5.
22:55 CBugDCoder definatly
22:56 IhrFussel 0.4.17 was supposed to release this month (in 5 minutes it's dec here) but probably delayed too now?
22:56 shivajiva I feel for both players and server owners, it's going to be a rough ride either way
22:56 nerzhul IhrFussel, it's exact yes
22:56 Shara I still see myself whitelisting my servers come the release of 0.5 and calling it a day
22:56 nerzhul Shara, it's not delayed, we have no release date for 0.5 atm
22:56 Shara I didn't say it is delayed...
22:56 nerzhul i just need time to finish tracking a windows anoying bug, else it's perfectly stable
22:57 nerzhul better to have all compat break in one row than doing it every 6 months
22:57 IhrFussel nerzhul, I actively helped testing the PR for over a week xP
22:58 shivajiva nrz: I said it's delayed, based on lack of testing
22:58 CBugDCoder question will there be a iphone/ipad app for 0.5.0?
22:58 IhrFussel ASIO PR is 100% stable on Ubuntu ... the last time I connected to nrz's test server I had 0 bugs and 0 crashes for over an hour straight
22:59 Shara nerzhul: Any chance you could tak e alook at https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6717 and let me know if I made the changes you wanted correctly?
22:59 Jordach https://youtu.be/jU5HkFtyBh8 :^)
22:59 IhrFussel CBugDCoder, Apple doesn't allow LGPL software
23:00 CBugDCoder ugg so then how is there an app now?
23:00 IhrFussel Illegal, it breaks the MT license
23:01 CBugDCoder so if a server updates then all iphone/ipad users are "banned"
23:01 shivajiva clearly we need a public server we can stress test ASIO on as a community, something permanent and advertised as such?
23:01 IhrFussel Greedy app devs don't give a damn about licenses
23:01 nerzhul Shara, why not remove version from client_mod_api too ?
23:02 nerzhul they are very similar
23:02 Shara because I'm focused on lua_api only for now. I'll get to the others later
23:02 IhrFussel CBugDCoder, yes exactly...and the iDevices userbase is huge in MT
23:02 Shara I don't want these PRs sitting around too long, due to how often documents might get updated, and I have no time the next few days.
23:03 IhrFussel I mean app devs *will* find a way to create another illegal 0.5.0 app in the future... but it takes lots of work I think
23:04 IhrFussel Until now they could just use 0.4.11 client code which is still supported in 0.4.16 servers
23:05 benrob0329 Jordach: particles?
23:05 CBugDCoder if apple doesnt allow LGPL then how is there a mac app
23:07 shivajiva ask apple lol
23:07 Jordach benrob0329, particles for whqt
23:07 IhrFussel I think the restriction is only in their store...iTunes or whatever ... Mac doesn't use the store necessarily...or does it?
23:08 CBugDCoder idk i have never used apple XD
23:08 benrob0329 Jordach: pipes, or did you ditch those since last I knew?
23:08 IhrFussel You can install homebrew on Mac..that's what I know
23:09 Jordach benrob0329, i've been working on them all evening
23:12 CBugDCoder so if the licence of MT was changed to another FOSS licence it might be able to be added to the apple store :/
23:13 benrob0329 Screw iOS
23:16 CBugDCoder true but that is a large portion of the playerbase
23:17 benrob0329 Screw people who don't bother to use the internet :^)
23:17 CBugDCoder ?
23:19 sofar there's nothing wrong (from our perspective) with apple store versions of minetest
23:19 sofar only apple has an issue with it
23:19 sofar if the source can be obtained properly... I'd say we shouldn't care
23:20 benrob0329 CBugDCoder: to actually look up the game
23:20 benrob0329 sofar: that is true
23:21 CBugDCoder i noticed that the app store has GPL apps so why can it have GPL and not LGPL
23:22 sofar it can't. gpl/lgpl are the same for license requirements for as far as they are concerned
23:23 benrob0329 Apple doesnt like copyleft licenses because walled garden :^)
23:24 sofar bottom line is that app stores and GPL don't mix, since apple can not verify that the app sources are actually the same as the ones used to build the app
23:24 benrob0329 Also I think this proves the curation of the App Store is crap
23:24 sofar and if apple redistributes GPL, then apple must provide sources
23:25 sofar so they cannot legally have gpl apps in the store unless they build the software
23:25 sofar and of course, they don't.
23:25 sofar the GPL actually is ambiguous about this
23:25 sofar on purpose
23:26 sofar the GPL could say that "app stores etc" are not the ones that are required to provide sources, but the original vendor should
23:26 sofar but that is a slippery slope that the FSF would never agree on
23:26 sofar besides, courts might invalidate it entirely
23:26 IhrFussel Here is a relevant link (old but probably still correct) https://stackoverflow.com/questions/45983​3/which-open-source-licenses-are-compatib​le-with-the-apples-iphone-and-its-offici
23:26 sofar enough legal speak yet?
23:27 sofar that article has little to do with the reason that the app store doesn't allow gpl/lgpl
23:28 sofar it's entirely irrelevant, even (it's not incorrect, though, but it doesn't clearly state the reason why apple disallows GPL apps)
23:29 sofar heck that thread is full with conjecture
23:29 benrob0329 So...use illegal apps with care.
23:31 sofar well, there's absolutely nothing wrong with MT builds for ios
23:31 IhrFussel sofar, what? I clearly lists the problems with using (L)GPL on their app store and what requirements you likely cannot meet
23:31 sofar it's when the people making them do not distribute their sources that there is a problem
23:31 IhrFussel It*
23:31 sofar IhrFussel: you can totally make a legal ios GPL application
23:32 sofar the problem is that apple won't allow them in the appstore
23:32 sofar and for good legal reasons
23:32 IhrFussel Yes but the app store may reject your software...it would still be legal to distribute it for iOS
23:32 sofar obviously, illegally linking apps are not legal, but they are illegal everywhere
23:32 sofar even outside of the app store...
23:33 sofar do you see the difference?
23:33 IhrFussel But almost nobody is able to download apps from outside the store
23:33 sofar yes, I'm not disclaiming the ramifications of that restriction
23:33 IhrFussel Why can Google allow "every" licence then?
23:34 sofar Google may or may not be in trouble for the exact same reason
23:34 sofar however, reality shows that users do not sue google for not having GPL sources for apps
23:35 sofar and google honors takedown requests
23:35 sofar Apple lawyers are clearly more anal
23:35 sofar culture is likely also a factor
23:35 sofar especially since android uses a GPL kernel
23:35 sofar !
23:35 IhrFussel So anyone could tell Google "I didn't get my licence when downloading the LGPL software Minetest" and Google might remove it??
23:36 sofar I don't see why not
23:36 sofar https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta​ils?id=net.minetest.minetest&amp;hl=en
23:37 sofar no links to source code anywhere
23:38 sofar anyone could complain, really
23:38 sofar there's not even a "license" field anywhere afaics
23:39 IhrFussel Requires Android
23:39 IhrFussel 2.3 and up
23:39 IhrFussel Didn't know we support such old versions
23:42 IhrFussel Okay well the good thing is that Android allows you to download/install apps from anywhere (just need to enable it in settings) so in case of a removal, the majority of users could still play
23:43 IhrFussel Shouldn't we link the source code in the description though? I mean a link to github
23:44 benrob0329 ^
23:48 IhrFussel Off for the night, see ya
23:59 sniper338 joined #minetest-hub

| Channels | #minetest-hub index | Today | | Google Search | Plaintext