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IRC log for #minetest-hub, 2017-11-19

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 Jordach Calinou, the CRT setting looks fucking awesome on my LG Ultrawide
00:03 Calinou I use the default
00:03 Jordach CRT looks clearer on my screen
00:03 Calinou Roger9: well, I have a pretty solid Windows dev environment now :)
00:03 Jordach i wish i could get Samsungs OLED rendering
00:03 Calinou Linux doesn't quite work perfectly on my laptop
00:03 Calinou or even on my desktop
00:03 Calinou so I went back to Windows :/
00:05 benrob0329 Calinou: all Intel laptops FTW :P
00:06 benrob0329 Although I had to install drivers for my old laptop before it worked properly
00:07 Calinou my laptop is all Intel
00:07 Calinou it still has many issues
00:07 Calinou I ran Linux on it from February to June 2017
00:07 Calinou (Manjaro, kernel 4.9)
00:08 benrob0329 "Many issues" is rather ambiguous
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01:24 Jordach anyone know the luajit libs on apt-get
01:25 Jordach libluajit-5.1-dev nevermind
02:15 Roger9 I'm using Minetest from the AppImage, but it seems to be very laggy.
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03:48 Megaf https://xkcd.com/371/
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06:05 sofar https://i.imgur.com/siFOxj6.png
06:05 sofar Does that look interesting?
06:05 sofar it's not waving, it's just "slightly lower" water level
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10:37 tenplus1 joined #minetest-hub
10:38 tenplus1 hi folks
10:43 Donbatman Hi tenplus1
10:43 tenplus1 Hey Don, how's it going ?
10:43 Donbatman Good
10:44 Donbatman How are you doing
10:44 tenplus1 glad to hear :) am okie, just fixed bug in Bonemeal mod
10:45 tenplus1 what ya been up to ?
10:46 Donbatman Wife and I broke up so I moved and have been busy sorting through stuff and getting her ready to move
10:46 tenplus1 erk, sorry to hear dude...
10:47 Donbatman sorry? I am single now so I am free to do as I please :)
10:47 tenplus1 lol dude...
10:47 tenplus1 was worried when I didnt see you online for a while
10:47 Donbatman Dog needs out. brb
10:47 tenplus1 k
10:47 Donbatman I got my dog :)
10:48 tenplus1 dogs are kewl :)
10:49 tenplus1 strangely enough "Grade A Under A" has been away for some time as well, was starting to think you were he
10:50 Krock joined #minetest-hub
10:50 tenplus1 hi Krock
10:51 Krock hi tenplus1
10:52 Krock wasn't prepared this time. You seem to show up too less recently!
10:52 tenplus1 been busy at work lately...
10:52 tenplus1 our company is being bought over, so mass panic!!!! :P
10:55 tenplus1 I had an idea for a foody mod that uses groups for crafting recipes so that it works with all food items in mods... e.g.   strawberry will have  food_strawberry=1 set for recipe
10:56 tenplus1 gotta check forum tho, see if it's been done first :d
10:57 Donbatman back
10:57 Donbatman hi Krock
11:00 * tenplus1 sips le coffee
11:01 * Donbatman sips le Coke
11:01 * tenplus1 looks at Krock
11:01 * Donbatman wonders if Krock is gone to make coffee
11:02 tenplus1 or a banana smoothie ?
11:02 Donbatman Minetest 0.5.0 has some big changes
11:03 tenplus1 yeah, was hoping they'd skip 0.4.17 and just move straight to 0.5.0 so everyone would need to upgrade already
11:03 Donbatman Need to run 2 versions now
11:03 tenplus1 am not even writing mods for 0.5.0 until official release
11:03 tenplus1 it'll take a lot longer now
11:04 Donbatman I have to go through all my mods now
11:04 tenplus1 I updated to 0.4.16 functions already, so far so good...
11:04 Donbatman Don't think it will effect many of my mods
11:05 tenplus1 just gotta check for deprecated functions that scroll through console with warnings
11:06 Donbatman I will get to that eventually
11:07 Donbatman Should we maintain 2 versions of the mods or just upgrade them to only work on 0.5.0
11:07 tenplus1 Iwas hoping for a december release on 0.5.0, but they shoe horned 0.4.17 in there so I suppose we gotta write for that
11:08 tenplus1 which slows down 0.5.0 mod develppment for when it DOES come out...
11:08 tenplus1 cause players cant run both and connect to ALL servers on 0.4.17
11:08 tenplus1 sinec some are already using latest dev 0.5
11:09 Donbatman The 0.5 servers must be slow. So many players are android apps and they are not 0.5 yet
11:09 tenplus1 0.4.16/17 cannot connect to 0.5 servers
11:10 Donbatman I noticed that when I compiled the latest
11:11 tenplus1 I wanna be able to tell all my players to update to 0.5 when stable is released and have ALL mods and servers follow with a decent client
11:12 Donbatman Do you know if they have a proposed release date yet?
11:12 tenplus1 sadly no... next release is 0.4.17... we we'll be a while away from 0.5
11:13 Donbatman I need to catch up on mt news
11:14 tenplus1 the main change is the player model, a new 3d_armor mod is needed to use it properly and I've already tweaked invisibility potion mod to use it
11:14 Krock hi Donbatman
11:15 * Donbatman wonders if Krock has a coffee or a banana shake
11:17 * Krock doesn't have either of them
11:17 tenplus1 buuuuuu
11:18 Jordach joined #minetest-hub
11:18 tenplus1 hi Jordach
11:28 tenplus1 Jordach: do you know when 0.5.0 is scheduled for release ?
11:40 Krock joined #minetest-hub
11:40 tenplus1 wb dude
11:46 * Donbatman sips le coffee
11:46 tenplus1 ehe
11:47 tenplus1 I have a tiny box of Civet Cat Coffee to try, am hesitant tho :P
11:47 tenplus1 https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-busi​ness/2014/sep/19/civet-cat-coffee-worlds-mos​t-expensive-brew-made-sustainably-kopi-luwak
11:48 Donbatman Thats coffee cats crapped
11:49 tenplus1 sorta, yeah :) that's why I'm hesitant
11:49 tenplus1 but it's meant to taste amazing
11:49 Donbatman taste is subjective
11:50 tenplus1 very true...
11:50 tenplus1 strangely enough I'm watching "Kitchen Nightmares" with Gordon Ramsay... so funny
11:50 Donbatman lol
11:53 tenplus1 so many of the fancy resto's are anything but, would rather eat from Gregg's :)
11:54 Donbatman Ya
11:55 Donbatman Rich people are gross. That is why I choose to be poor
11:55 Donbatman :P
11:55 shivajiva Hi folks, wb tenplus1
11:55 tenplus1 agree'd, am happy having just enough to get by
11:55 tenplus1 hi shiva, how's tricks ?
11:56 Donbatman hi shivajiva
11:56 shivajiva not bad thanks, had fun?
11:56 shivajiva Hi Don
11:57 tenplus1 working more than fun :P ehe
11:58 shivajiva I can confirm UI makes a shed load of priv checks on player join ~947 on my count
11:59 shivajiva no wonder folks say it's slow
11:59 tenplus1 eek, that many ?!?!
12:00 shivajiva though with only 8 calls in the code something is looping
12:01 tenplus1 for 947 calls it must be looping through all players numerous times
12:01 tenplus1 heh
12:01 shivajiva thats what I was thinking
12:01 tenplus1 same way detached inventories looped through ALL players at one point and was thankfully fixed
12:02 shivajiva I plan to hunt it down just for fun =)
12:03 tenplus1 good luck dude, hope you find it :)
12:03 Donbatman You can do it!
12:03 tenplus1 the auth system needs a bit of work and sauth may be the way to go :D
12:04 shivajiva it would be nice to stop it and see how much improvement to the response there is
12:05 tenplus1 cacheing of player info on join would speed things up
12:06 shivajiva I added some delay to the unload event to see if it helps logins that don't complete the first attempt
12:07 shivajiva 60 seconds before they are moved out of the cache
12:09 shivajiva but tests on Hometown were a bit odd, 7 million touches of sqlite or it's schema in 30 seconds
12:10 tenplus1 7 mil ? how many players online at the time ?
12:10 shivajiva 28 I think
12:10 tenplus1 and were the touches outwith the map ?
12:11 shivajiva CTF and RC don't get that kind of traffic with sauth but HT did and they were exclusively sauth.sqlite
12:12 tenplus1 weird
12:17 tenplus1 brb
12:17 Shara DL, not RC. Still haven't tried it on RC :P
12:18 shivajiva if I hadn't been pointed to the forum post I wouldn't even be aware of the issue, oh yes sorry DL
12:18 Shara Also, hello :)
12:18 shivajiva Hiya
12:19 Donbatman Morning Shara
12:19 Shara Hi Don :)
12:19 davisonio hey
12:28 Fixer joined #minetest-hub
12:29 Shara Hi davisonio
12:31 Shara And maybe I am wrong, but wasn't 0.4.17 just meant to be a small bugfix release? I'm not sure why that would cause delays to 0.5
12:34 tenplus1 hi fixer
12:34 tenplus1 hi Shara
12:34 Shara Hi tenplus1
12:35 tenplus1 hi davis
12:35 * tenplus1 is making lunch :) nom time is upon us
12:36 Donbatman This doesn't look too bad. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/milestone/9
12:36 sfan5 that doesn't mean 0.5 will be finished soon fyi
12:36 Donbatman The auth.txt issue seems to be the biggest thing
12:37 Donbatman Hi sfan5
12:37 Shara All I'm curious about is whether 0.4.17 being a thing delays it
12:37 tenplus1 hi sfan
12:37 Shara Personally I really want 0.4.17
12:38 tenplus1 0.4.17 is a good interim update but... since 0.5 breaks a few things inc. player models it would be better to urge updates to that before continuing with anything
12:38 tenplus1 that way mod makers can tailor everything towards 0.5 just now instead of putting things off
12:38 Shara tenplus1: Not everyone wants to rush into such a big update
12:39 Shara Especially given the issues with all the apps and so on
12:39 davisonio auth.txt has always had problems for me
12:39 davisonio hope it gets fixed - too many times it's been corrupted
12:40 Shara davisonio: there was a change recently that was meant to help prevent corruption
12:40 tenplus1 sauth helps also davis
12:40 davisonio is it in 0.4.16?
12:40 Shara No, because it was recent
12:40 davisonio ok I'll have to leave it till its stable then haha
12:41 Shara I've switched to sauth on the server where I kept getting auth related problems
12:41 davisonio will have a look into it
12:41 davisonio also need to look into the new player database thing
12:44 tenplus1 many new features to play with davis
12:44 davisonio exciting times :)
12:44 tenplus1 am eager to see what shiva finds with the sql checks
12:47 shivajiva the thing about HT's issue is that it suggests unique non cached player entries or the database file wouldn't be touched only the cache. Now how the hell does the hardware support 7 million logins in 30 seconds
12:48 Shara I showed on DL that sauth wasn't even being touch unless players logged in
12:48 Shara touched*
12:49 Shara And despite socerykid seeming to think no sauth using server other than HT sees decent activity, the server list simply disagrees. DL is often pushing at it's player cap, which means in the background it's getting lots of prejoins that never make it through
12:50 Shara (this is happening at the moment)
12:50 Shara And CTF is clearly busy
12:50 Shara So this can't simply be because HT is busy.
12:52 shivajiva it's not, the cache would handle that, something is constantly checking offline players on that server
12:53 Shara Yup, has to be,which implies it's not sauth at all.
12:53 davisonio strange - I remember the days when every single player file was loaded into RAM - maybe a bit like that
12:53 sfan5 davisonio: it's possible to backport these fixes onto 0.4.16
12:53 Shara Though have to wonder why they only see this when using sauth
12:53 sfan5 this is what 0.4.17 will be doing actually
12:54 davisonio great, if its in 0.4.17 that's the best
12:54 Shara sfan5: will 0.4.17 include the ability for the server to limit CSM use?
12:54 tenplus1 yeah, that was another big issue I was hoping 0.5 would fix.... if it's in 0.4.17 then all is good
12:54 sfan5 Shara: nope
12:54 tenplus1 dammit
12:54 Shara Ugh. ANy chance of it being there?
12:54 Shara It's a pretty big issue.
12:54 sfan5 since it will be backwards compat with 0.4.16 or older you can't guarantee that the client would actually have the csm limits code
12:55 Shara Wait. So all of that is client side??
12:55 sfan5 yes, how else would you do that?
12:55 Shara SSSo actually there is no way for  aserver to limit CSM after all then.
12:55 Shara So*
12:55 IhrFussel joined #minetest-hub
12:55 tenplus1 hi fussel
12:55 IhrFussel Hi tenplus1
12:56 sfan5 correct, the server can't force the client to do or not do some things
12:56 shivajiva anyone can remove the code and compile a version that ignores the server
12:56 sfan5 the only way to 100% fix e.g. oredetect would be not sending occluded ores (sending them as if they were stone)
12:56 sfan5 which adds a lot of overhead
12:56 Shara It's not about ores sfan5
12:56 IhrFussel That the game sometimes doesn't loa the server list is honestly unacceptable... can't you include a retry or even 2 within X secs? I literally just thought my internet was out cause the client couldn't load the servers
12:56 sfan5 shivajiva: it's the same with fly, fast & noclip checks, which is good enough usually
12:57 Shara It's about the client's ability to send things to the server as well.
12:57 Shara I want the ability to stop people using those colour codes and things
12:57 shivajiva not good enough to keep me running a server sfan
12:57 sfan5 shivajiva: well sorry, we're not gonna implement DRM
12:57 * tenplus1 wants a way to disable csm for server
12:57 Shara tenplus1: it's just been confirmed we'll never really get it
12:57 sfan5 color codes can be stripped server-side
12:57 Shara sfan5: not in current stable they can't
12:58 * shivajiva *sighs*
12:58 shivajiva I may as well leave now then huh sfan5?
12:58 sfan5 sounds like a missing feature
12:58 Shara sfan5: can that at least get in 0.4.17 please?
12:59 sfan5 i doubt it's actually impossible, might just be impossible from Lua
12:59 sfan5 shivajiva: if that is your conclusion then you have interpreted the situation incorrectly
13:00 shivajiva then clarify it once and for all pls
13:00 Shara The issue is that the barrier to this kind of thing is still massively reduced
13:00 Shara Since I assume editing the client to reenable CSM is much simpler than also coding what the CSM would do
13:00 Shara You've basically reduced a whole host of things to the same level of entry as enabling fly and noclip
13:01 sfan5 correct
13:01 Shara So actually none of the concerns have really been addressed at all
13:01 IhrFussel Shara, there is a solution that works in 0.4.16 stable...at least for chat messages minetest.strip_colors(message)
13:01 sfan5 Shara: you want this in 0.4.17, correct? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/b​lob/master/minetest.conf.example#L1041
13:02 sfan5 because i'm pretty sure a mod could do that
13:02 Shara End result: CSM has still made us much more vulnerable
13:02 Shara sfan5: Yes, would like that in please.
13:03 Shara I'd rather not need to create mods for something that's there as real functionality if I can avoid it
13:04 IhrFussel Isn't there a merged PR that restricts CSMs?? You could simply backport it to 0.4.17
13:04 sfan5 ok, noted
13:04 Shara Fussel, nope, it's all client side
13:04 Shara sfan5: Thanks
13:05 tenplus1 sfan5: we arent trying to rain on a good feature, just wanting control to stop users using it for bad things
13:05 Shara Compatibility break is needed or older clients will still just be able to carry on with the CSM
13:05 IhrFussel But server owners were told that they will be able to control which CSM functions are accepted on the server
13:05 Shara There was actually someone doing the rounds to see how many servers were vulnerable to certain things in CSM yesterday and many were.
13:06 Shara Thankfully that person was out to alert server owners, not abuse things.
13:06 sfan5 what are those "certain things" if i may ask?
13:06 Shara In this case, something that's thankfully handled in the mod responsible
13:06 Shara But of course lots of people don't constantly update to current versions
13:07 IhrFussel sfan5, I can name you one (which has been fixed in MTG-dev but still): taking items from the creative inventory
13:07 sfan5 can you point me to the commit that fixed that? since i'm pretty sure that mtg has always done this correctly
13:08 IhrFussel sfan5, https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/c​ommit/a1d35f3d69dbed8cd9ce317a11f2bd2f7c816​c75#diff-70fc65948f2178f6fc1f14ffc7c36b8a
13:09 Fixer hi
13:09 Shara Problem here is that MTG is currently focused on 0.5? Can people on current stable even simply update to it?
13:10 IhrFussel Shara, No I had to manually edit the files
13:10 sfan5 it is and no
13:10 Shara So many issues with mod compatibility as well now.
13:10 Shara So it shouldn't be surprising server owners aren't managing to keep up to date
13:11 IhrFussel Krock even tried the "cheat" on my server and asked me how I fixed it =P
13:12 Krock creative or worldedit?
13:12 Shara creative
13:12 Shara I really, really hope that everyone has updated WE by now
13:12 sfan5 IhrFussel: hm indeed didn't even remember that
13:12 IhrFussel But I can assure you that many public servers do NOT have that fix from MTG-dev ... so they are at risk of being exploited
13:12 * tenplus1 has
13:13 Krock Shara, if you see a server, there's a script which uses the hole to patch itself
13:13 Shara On one level it's great that CSM is revealing the problems, but still leaving the server no way to prevent CSM, so that when the next issue is found servers are helpless...
13:13 Shara This is just plain bad
13:14 Fixer iirc there was nodeupdate thing
13:14 Shara Krock: Good to know, but I still prefer to try speak to the owner first
13:15 IhrFussel CSM makes server exploits more trivial and I think everyone will agree there... before CSM it was not as easy to find flaws in mod's code
13:15 Shara Fussel: like I said above, it's reduced the barrier to learning to enable CSM in the client again, instead of them needing to also work out how to write the code
13:15 Shara So same level as fly/fast
13:16 Shara And given no one predicted many of the things that have appeared with CSM, no one can say they know there won't be more
13:17 IhrFussel I'd guess max 5% of the MT userbase has a clue about c++ while lots more know how to install an enable CSMs
13:17 Shara IhrFussel: editing a bit of code to skip a check is trivial compared to needing to actually write code
13:18 sfan5 you still need to compile a working version of minetest after "editing a bit of code"
13:18 IhrFussel Shara, barely any 10 yr old kid would dare to even look at that source code... while installing a CSM is no problem for young kids
13:18 sfan5 which is very much nontrivial on e.g. windows
13:18 Shara Even I've managed to compile on Windows :P
13:18 Shara But yea, I know
13:18 Shara It still lowers it
13:19 sfan5 regarding taking control away from server owners: i believe this discussion has been had already and having it again would be pointless
13:19 IhrFussel And young kids are *mostly* the ones that want to cause trouble and troll servers and "hack" them
13:19 sfan5 I'm unable to find where this discussion was though (forums?)
13:19 Fixer IhrFussel: yeah, but there are bright ones 10+ that can do that
13:20 IhrFussel sfan5, what happened to the bold claim "don't worry server owners will be able to white/blacklist CSM functions in the future"?
13:20 Shara So server owners' concerns are pointless in this. Good to know.
13:20 sfan5 IhrFussel: that's what flavor limits are
13:20 tenplus1 I use the csm chest_inspector mod and it can easily open chests and clone items
13:21 sfan5 that's a bug in minetest_game / whatever provides your chests
13:21 Shara It only takes one player who is able to give themselves items to wreck a survival server's economy and spoil the game for quite a long time
13:21 sfan5 csm "just" exposes those issues and that isn't what you should be worried about
13:21 tenplus1 doesnt matter whast mod provides the chest, it can open the "main" inventory inside any chest and remove items
13:21 IhrFussel So there IS a way to disable certain CSM functions in 0.5.0-dev now? A server-side way?
13:22 sfan5 yes and no
13:22 tenplus1 it doesnt adhere to the on_inventory_move functions at all cause it opens it's own formspec
13:22 sfan5 IhrFussel: with 0.5 the server can tell the client "please don't use this, this and this" and a normal client will obey it
13:22 sfan5 tenplus1: that's impossible, inventory movements are server side and will always result in callbacks being called
13:23 IhrFussel Who thought that having the restriction client side would make any sense? We server owners were told that we could "disable" any kind of CSM if we wanted to
13:23 lisac WTF I didn't know that bug became public
13:23 lisac good morning.
13:23 tenplus1 hi lisac
13:23 Shara Hi lisac
13:23 * tenplus1 checks something
13:23 lisac I notified most server owners with affected servers yesterday.
13:23 Raven262 Hello everyone.
13:23 sfan5 you seem to be implying that fixing this is easy
13:23 tenplus1 hey raven
13:23 lisac tenplus1, Xanadu didn't seem to be affected by the bug.
13:24 Shara lisac: it's come up a few times, but didn't want to outright say it was you testing it :)
13:24 Fixer tenplus1: use where?
13:24 tenplus1 dammit, chet inspector lets you remove everything without check
13:24 tenplus1 conformed
13:24 lisac I hope not everyone wants to lynch lisac.
13:24 tenplus1 *confirmed
13:24 * shivajiva waits patiently for a reply from sfan5
13:24 tenplus1 which bug lisac ?
13:24 Shara lisac: nope, the way you were doing it was pretty responsible and helpful
13:24 lisac yay
13:24 lisac tenplus1, you can access the creative inventory with a CSM
13:24 sfan5 even AAA games by multi-million dollar companies struggle with cheaters despite invasive anticheat and DRM, please tell me how a FOSS project can feasibly enforce some limits
13:25 lisac on servers using outdated creative mod
13:25 sfan5 shivajiva: the "having this discussion again would pointless" kind of was the reply but you should also read the above
13:25 Shara sfan5: we don't expect all cheats ever to be prevented
13:25 lisac if anyone wants the test code I used, pm me
13:25 tenplus1 xanadu uses custom creative mod
13:25 sfan5 pretty much the only way to address your concerns would be to remove CSM again
13:25 lisac I already gave it to... 3 people?
13:26 lisac Nore, Sofar, and Shara.
13:26 Shara But we do expect the developer team not to add features that specifically low the barrier to cheating
13:26 lisac they seem pretty trusted.
13:26 Shara lower*
13:26 shivajiva so client prediction / server reconciliation of movement/flying/noclip will never be realised in minetest?
13:26 IhrFussel lisac, the fix is on github so anyone who looks for exploits can easily find it
13:27 lisac IhrFussel, Ik, yet half of the servers I checked yesterday don't apply it.
13:27 sfan5 shivajiva: not what i was trying to say, minetest still does that to the extent possible
13:27 IhrFussel lisac, cause it would break their MTG ... current MTG is not compatible with 0.4.16
13:28 sfan5 Shara: that's a reasonable position, but merging CSM into minetest means the dev team has accepted the drawback of lowering the barrier to cheating
13:28 IhrFussel The only way would be editing files manually (like I did) ... but server owners who are not very tech savvy likely won't do that
13:28 Shara mod writers, especially the devs with MTG, just tend to want to rush ahead and play with new features. They don't generally support servers very well at such times
13:29 Shara sfan5: It's not the dev team that has to face the consequences
13:29 lisac IhrFussel, They just need to update creative mod.
13:29 sfan5 mtg should probably have a stable branch with backports
13:29 Jordach tenplus1, grab the latest x64 or x86 build from sfan5
13:29 Shara Yes, MTG really should
13:29 sfan5 Jordach: (x86 is actually broken since mingw is making a mess again >_>)
13:29 sniper570 joined #minetest-hub
13:30 tenplus1 Jordach: unless it runs standalone inside a folder I cannot run it alongside stable 0.4.16 and keep mods working properly
13:30 Shara I would love, really love, to move both my servers back to using MTG, but it's just not possible as things are
13:30 shivajiva can you stop using DRM as an excuse for the request for prediction/reconciliation of events to stop hacking. Are you saying nothing else is possible and we have to live with what we currently have?
13:30 Jordach tenplus1, sfan5's builds do that
13:30 Jordach it's windows :^)
13:30 IhrFussel lisac, creative alone *could* be compatible with 0.4.16 ... I'm not sure
13:30 * tenplus1 uses linux
13:30 lisac IhrFussel, Craigs was fixed by updating the creative mod.
13:30 lisac Client: HexChat 2.12.4 • OS: Ubuntu "artful" 17.10 • CPU: AMD A8-7600 Radeon R7, 10 Compute Cores 4C+6G (3.09GHz) • Memory: Physical: 6.6 GiB Total (2.7 GiB Free) Swap: 7.9 GiB Total (7.9 GiB Free) • Storage: 754.0 GB / 1.1 TB (335.6 GB Free) • VGA: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Kaveri [Radeon R7 Graphics] @ Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 15h • Uptime: 1d 19h 42m 1s
13:30 jas_ Shara: server tend to prefer stable environments that don't change except to fix bugs and, maybe show new features that are proven stable, yes?  i don't believe that's what the dev branch is tho.  then again the master branch is the dev branch but nevermind that lol
13:30 tenplus1 hi jas
13:30 sfan5 shivajiva: it's not an excuse. what i have in mind here is e.g. chat, how do you differ between what someone typed and something sent by csm? you can't
13:30 * lisac doesn't miss a chance to run sysinfo
13:31 jas_ hello
13:31 sfan5 minetest will still check what the client said it did
13:31 sfan5 and it always did that
13:31 jas_ tenplus1 :^)
13:31 sfan5 if a csm mod allows duplicating from items / taking from chests that's a bug in minetest_game and it should definitely be fixed
13:31 Shara jas_:  problem is compatibility breaks, then stable version isn't maintained
13:32 lisac tenplus1, Can I get a 10 minute 'Use CSM' pass on Xanadu? I wanna try to see if it's possible to open locked chests.
13:32 Shara I believe current stable of a mod should always be maintained with bug fixes (especially MTG) up until the engine updates to a new stable version
13:32 lisac I'll of course pm you the results.
13:32 jas_ compat doesn't break in "stable", that's opposite of its definition
13:32 tenplus1 lisac: ok, use the one's outside the arena...
13:32 Shara jas_: current dev breaks from stable
13:32 jas_ if you want a 0.4.16 server you get an 0.4.16 server haha sorry, i digress
13:32 lisac okay, thanks
13:32 lisac Can someone contact the admins of "*** Miners World ***'
13:33 Shara It's recommended NOT to run 0.5 servers currently, yet MTG maints fixes only for 0.5
13:33 lisac they are fully affected.
13:33 Shara See the problem?
13:33 Jordach >runs 0.5.x server as development testing and feedback
13:33 Jordach uwotm87
13:33 Shara lisac: Maybe don't reveal that in public where everyone can now go abuse it?
13:33 Krock you can look at any data sent by the server. but this doesn't mean that locked chests can be plundered
13:34 lisac Shara, I sent him a PM yesterday
13:35 lisac and only three people have the mod.
13:35 Shara Pretty sure anyone can get it though
13:35 lisac only if they write their own.
13:35 sfan5 Shara: https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1948
13:35 * Krock gets interested
13:35 lisac I won't tell everyone about the affected servers, if you think that's best.
13:36 sfan5 another question that arises is whether the engine urgently needs any fixes so a backports branch would have to be created too
13:36 Shara sfan5: thank you
13:37 Shara I thought 0.4.17 would address that?
13:37 Krock sfan5, why not apply them to stable-0.4 ? It'll still be stable, as the commits have been tested/used a lot already
13:37 sfan5 Krock: if you're a distro pulling from stable-0.4 you don't want some sort of working state between .16 and .17, you want the stable version which is .16
13:38 Krock i.e. constant HEAD?
13:38 sfan5 separating these doesn't really hurt
13:38 sfan5 yea
13:38 Krock okay, I see
13:38 tenplus1 left #minetest-hub
13:42 shivajiva sfan5: sounds like you are asking me to solve a conundrum of dev adding the holes in the first place...
13:42 sfan5 ?
13:42 Krock will check whether this chest inspector thingy is really something to worry about
13:43 shivajiva e.g. chat, how do you differ between what someone typed and something sent by csm? you can't
13:43 sfan5 oh yea, this wouldn't exist if csm wasn't added ofc
13:43 sfan5 <sfan5> pretty much the only way to address your concerns would be to remove CSM again
13:44 shivajiva might be easier to fix though :)
13:44 shivajiva my point is we had holes, now we have more
13:50 shivajiva I just don't understand why more and more holes are added whilst people turn my concerns into 'he wants DRM' so they can ignore or accept the holes
13:51 jas_ there's probably a way to have control over connecting clients, and for all parties to be able to modify their programs within the server rules.
13:52 Shara My issue:
13:52 Shara CSM doesn't change single player experience. Since the player must run the mod regardless of what kind of mod it is
13:52 jas_ csm could change single player experience.
13:52 Shara This tells us CSM is just about servers.
13:52 jas_ it's not impossible at all
13:52 Shara jas_: You miss the point. may as well be added like a server mod then
13:53 Shara Nothing is saved by it being CSM
13:53 jas_ i may indeed
13:53 jas_ but about that, you could have a singleplayer server!
13:53 jas_ haha
13:53 Shara Okay, ignoring you since you are just trying to make jokes of it ;)
13:53 Shara But this means CSM is just about servers.
13:54 Shara Yet the devs decide it's okay to accept the risks... on behalf of the server owners who must live with them
13:54 sfan5 in it's current state csm is supposed to enhance multiplayer experience without the user and server owner agreeing on what is beneficial
13:54 Shara Yet here you see the server owners aren't exactly happy with this
13:54 Shara sfan5: But why should people be able to do what they like with my server?
13:54 Shara I choose to run and pay for that server, so shouldn't I have the right to determine what the user experience is?
13:54 sfan5 that's a good question
13:55 jas_ totally valid concern
13:55 jas_ but minetest is an engine, and a server, and a client, and a game
13:55 Shara As a server owner, CSM is doing me no favours and has given me a bunch of problems
13:55 sfan5 it all depends on how far that goes
13:55 jas_ so there's got to be a balance struck somewhere
13:55 sfan5 should the server owner be able to forbid me to change the font?
13:55 Shara sfan5: End of the day, if I am providing a poor experience, I won't get players anyway
13:56 Shara Both my servers are p[retty busy, so that should tell you I have some clue what I am doing
13:56 sfan5 in its current state csm does go a little far, there's no denying that
13:56 Shara I don't mind a player changing their own font, as viewed by them
13:56 Shara I mind if they change it so I see it and other players see it
13:56 Shara I should be the one deciding how players affect other people's experience of my server
13:56 jas_ isn't it a matter of enabling the server the ability the mandate what the csm can get away with?  i had thought this was what flavours was about (show's what i know)
13:57 Shara jas_: I'd thought the same until today
13:57 jas_ not the case, eh?
13:57 jas_ sorry, i know you're not in the mood for jokes
13:57 sfan5 i honestly don't know what's so surprising about the fact that you can't force the client to do what you want
13:58 Shara sfan5: Don't twist my words please. The client can do whatever it wants - if it doesn't in turn affect the server
13:58 jas_ if a player strays far enough away from the server's purpose, it becomes painful
13:58 Shara Client wants it's own font/colours/music/textures/player appearance? - carry on
13:58 jas_ and self-deprecating?  i like that one, heh ok now i'm saying g'night
13:58 sfan5 wasn't refering to what you said, just in general
13:59 Shara I thought CSM was meant to take the load off servers, but it's not doing that
13:59 Shara Instead it's making us more vulnerable to things that don't get quick fixes and sometimes can't be fixed at all
14:00 sfan5 csm won't be able to take any load off servers until mod sending is implemented
14:00 Shara And when will that be?
14:00 sfan5 dunno
14:00 Shara So why was CSM added to begin with?
14:00 Shara It's clearly not ready, and there is currently not enough value from it to offset the problems
14:00 sfan5 why was it added just before a release while it wasn't really ready? i have no idea
14:01 Shara But we can't expect anything to be done to address this?
14:01 sfan5 the question is what you are expecting to be done
14:02 Shara I'm not the developer, and don't understand the codebase half as well yet as I'd probably need to in order to identify options
14:02 Shara But as much as I know wanting it doesn't make it happen, I want there to be some answer
14:04 Shara I don't think any of the server owner want to fight the devs on this. I certainly prefer trying to work with you on solutions. But it doesn't change that the devs choose to accept the risk, so this is actually on the devs to address.
14:05 sfan5 the problem remains that there isn't much you can do about this
14:06 sfan5 frustration about item duplication & cheats is warranted, but this is not the fault of CSM, it merely exposed these issues
14:06 sfan5 (not implying that you've said so)
14:07 Shara So how can we make sure that any new issues found are easier to deal with quickly?
14:08 Shara A stable branch of MTG will help, but is there anything else you can think of?
14:08 sfan5 actually do the backport thing instead of ignoring the issue
14:08 sfan5 anything else? no
14:11 Shara I'd be happy to see the backport and MTG running a stable version for now at least
14:12 * Fixer runs 1.4.7 FTB Ultimate and sips water while observing the chat
14:12 Shara Though with MTG at least, I'm concerned we'll just see the "not enough devs" excuse :)
14:14 Fixer WILL????
14:14 Fixer wtf
14:14 Fixer it is not enough like since 2010
14:14 Fixer especially for MTG, situation there is critical
14:15 Shara Fixer: we're just talking about bug fixes
14:15 * Fixer goes back to minetest clone
14:21 Calinou shivajiva: server-side physics are not viable for Minecraft-likes because of the lag that occurs during map generation and other intensive tasks
14:21 Calinou the only way to proceed is verified client-side physics
14:22 Shara Surely whether lag from one thing removes the posibility of other checks is down to what any individual server can handle and how busy it is?
14:22 Shara (om other words, it could be optional for those who can make use of it and who need it, since not every server gets the same problems)
14:22 Shara in*
14:27 shivajiva Calinou: The implementation is beyond me but the idea we need validation has to be taken seriously or this is just a continuation of the 'joke' that celeron55 started imo
14:28 Calinou Shara: indeed, the server-side checks could be turned off easily if needed
14:28 Shara For example, I probably wouldn't enable them on my creative server, but on my survival I'd definitely be interested in seeing if the server could handle it
14:29 Calinou indeed
14:29 Calinou on creative, you don't care about movement cheats, usually :P
14:29 Shara Survivals are also generally the servers that suffer a bit less from mapgen lag, because on creative it's normal to hand out fly and fast, so players can generate map much more quickly, while on survival the focus is usually on slower progression
14:30 Shara On a server like shivajiva's old one, where players giving themself fly can completely break how the game works, there wasn't even much map to generate
14:39 Calinou the map can be pregenerated if you have spare resources :P
14:39 rubenwardy Calinou, there shouldn't be any lag from mapgen
14:39 Calinou you could pregenerate the areas the players are likely to venture into
14:39 rubenwardy > multithreading
14:39 Calinou on my server, -2048..2048 is pregenerated between -128 and 128, IIRC
14:39 Calinou I use num_emerge_threads = 2
14:40 Calinou https://gist.github.com/Calinou/​683cb0748efe867be6e18f86f206a6b7
14:44 rubenwardy I personally think that the chest issues is a plus in CSM's column
14:44 rubenwardy it exposed vulnerabilities which are easily fixable
14:44 rubenwardy and as for back ports, I think we should do this generally
14:44 rubenwardy it's good for quality control
14:45 Shara A big part of the issue is how things are handled once they are found. If this is handled better, it will go a long way to helping.
14:46 rubenwardy CSM shouldn't have been a part of 0.4.16
14:48 rubenwardy I'm also very very sceptical about the networking PR
14:48 Shara There does seem to be a trend for big things to get merged without the consequences really being understood.
14:51 rubenwardy CSM for me should only be for adding low-latency audio-visual modifications. For example, drawing to a formspec in a canvas sort of way. Prediction of cart animations
14:51 rubenwardy not for this WoW client provided bullshit
14:51 Shara Agreed.
15:06 Jordach TIL jeija works for the university of stuttgart
15:07 Jordach https://github.com/physcip/physdash
15:07 Jordach extra proof
15:07 Jordach https://github.com/physcip
15:09 Calinou I wonder if my university has a GitHub organization
15:10 Calinou one of my teachers has some GitHub presence, I know that
15:10 Calinou (we have to use one of his softwares for an ssignment :P)
15:10 Calinou assignment*
15:11 rubenwardy https://github.com/cssbristol
15:22 Fixer i was surprised to see so much big mc mods that are open source
15:22 Fixer https://github.com/agaricusb/ForgeMod​/wiki/List-of-Open-Source-Forge-Mods
15:24 sfan5 hmm my uni doesn't seem to have a github page
15:24 sfan5 just individual labs
15:24 sfan5 (a few of them)
15:24 Fixer very hip uni
15:26 Roger9 Spontaneous.
15:44 oOChainLynxOo joined #minetest-hub
15:45 IhrFussel rubenwardy, "there shouldn't be any lag from mapgen" well that fully depends on the mods the server uses and my server even lags when LOADING mapblocks not just when generating (which is cause by lots of IO wait which I supposedly cannot fix without getting a more expensive dedi with SSD)
15:46 rubenwardy IhrFussel, I was talking idealistically
15:46 rubenwardy also, Lua mapgens suck
15:46 rubenwardy we really need to somehow have a separate Lua thread for mapgening, not sure if that's possible
15:47 IhrFussel I don't use any Lua mapgens...I use zero register_on_generated() callbacks and I have no clue why my machine suddenly cannot handle the amount of mapblocks to load/save without lag anymore...it was fine a few months back...maybe too much meta?
15:48 rubenwardy huh
15:48 rubenwardy it's something I'd like to investigate
15:48 rubenwardy but I have to prioritise uni over Minetest rn
15:49 IhrFussel I already tested with inotifywait and other tools...the lags definitely happen at map.sqlite ACCESS and MODIFY ... and I thought it was one of my mods...I investigated the wrong element for a long time
15:50 rubenwardy ideally sqlite should be accessed on a separate thread to the server thread, so should not block things
15:50 rubenwardy well, except map loading
15:50 rubenwardy however if the server thread is using I/O then you'll have problems
15:51 IhrFussel iotop barely displays Server thread...it's Emerge-0 with an IO of 30-90%
15:53 IhrFussel Right now Emerge-0 is not listed which means nobody moves right now...max_lag 0.6 ... now I'll move a bit
15:54 IhrFussel And max_lag jumped to 1.1 ... and that's still nothing... it can get to 3 secs
15:55 IhrFussel Which explains why my server with 10 players sometimes has 0.5 secs max_lag (cause nobody is extensively loading mapblocks) an other times it shows 2.5 secs with 3 players
15:57 IhrFussel When only 1 player walks with normal speed Emerge-0 only has an IO of 5% which means no lag ... problem is when players use fast or drive in cars or in carts etc
15:59 IhrFussel Maybe enabling more map threads could help, but I think that is only for generating not loading
16:05 Roger9 Minetest seems to lag a lot more for me now that I've switched to Debian 9. I'm using the AppImage version.
16:24 IhrFussel Here some values I took in the last 5 minutes https://pastebin.com/9NsZRcqS
16:25 IhrFussel It's just the IO wait % and thread name but you can clearly see Emerge-0 is the culprit
16:59 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
17:01 IhrFussel Is Server thread IO wait basically just io.open calls from lua?
17:24 Megaf sofar: There has been lots of discussion about that
17:24 Megaf on IRC at lease
17:24 Megaf maybe on GitHub too
17:57 tenplus1 joined #minetest-hub
17:57 tenplus1 hi folks
17:57 benrob0329 Hi tenplus1
17:57 tenplus1 VanessaE: you have a doppleganger on Xanadu :P am assuming is isnt you
17:57 tenplus1 hi benrob :)
17:58 Krock wb tenplus1
17:58 tenplus1 thx Krock
17:58 Megaf Hi tenplus1
17:58 tenplus1 hi Megaf
17:59 benrob0329 Something I would like to note real quick (towards everyone contributing to MTG) is that, whatever is added needs to be for the goal of making it more fun. (In my honest, very strong opinion anyways)
18:00 benrob0329 If it is indeed a game, then games are supposed to be fun, then the goal of MTG is to be fun.
18:00 tenplus1 agree'd
18:00 Shara I was looking at MTG contributions earlier, and found myself honestly wondering how I rank as #25 with so few commits there
18:00 Shara It shows how few people feel able to contribute.
18:00 Shara And it's certainly not because people can't write mods.
18:01 jas_ i thought mtg was a base for other sub-games all this time lol
18:01 rubenwardy it's because anything to do with MTG has massive bolitics attached
18:01 benrob0329 If your not making a game to be fun, then why the hell are you making it? Things should not exist for the sake of existing, everything should gave purpose, and everything should add to the gane
18:01 jas_ but yes i agree mtg should be fun
18:01 Shara jas_: I thought that way back as well, but I was told I was wrong.
18:01 benrob0329 Minetest GAME
18:01 jas_ ok
18:02 benrob0329 If its not supposed to be fun, then please remove Game.
18:02 Shara Personally I'm just going to make my own game, because I begin to believe MTG can't be saved.
18:02 Shara I'd like to be proved wrong.
18:02 rubenwardy I think that Minetest Game should become a full game whilst being modular enough that you can rip things out to make new subgames
18:02 Shara I've even offered to try and help with MTG more, but that doesn't seem to go anyway because no one seems to know if things are wanted or not.
18:02 benrob0329 rubenwardy: exactly
18:02 Shara anywhere*
18:02 rubenwardy so what exactly do we need?
18:03 Shara More people working on it
18:03 rubenwardy what kind of game should MTG become?
18:03 tenplus1 agree'd...  it would be great if the default mods could be disabled and replaced with user/server's own
18:03 rubenwardy Shara, working on what?
18:03 benrob0329 rubenwardy: To be fun
18:03 jas_ whatever it is, it's got to be funky
18:03 rubenwardy urgh
18:03 Shara rubenwardy: It's the devs' place to decide the direction of it.
18:03 rubenwardy we need more underground variety and mobs
18:03 rubenwardy Shara, the community should have input
18:04 Shara I opened an issue to see if teleportation would be wanted... only paramat has given any input
18:04 jas_ i think i mentioned sethome and bed's respawn
18:04 benrob0329 Not to have an extensive and fleshed out story, not to have more blocks or wires or whatever the heck you can think of as filler
18:04 Shara So I'm still in the position that I'd probably be wasting my time if I try and work on something
18:04 benrob0329 It need purpose
18:05 benrob0329 Why am I playing this thing, if there is nothing to strive for
18:05 tenplus1 a purpose or story would be nice to strive towards
18:05 Shara Only thing I know for sure is it should be modular. As an ideal, it should be a complete singleplayer experience, but it should stay easy enough to customise if you want to add mods
18:05 rubenwardy I don't see teleportation as that big a issue personally
18:06 Shara rubenwardy: me neither, but it's something I could have done, so I was willing to offer
18:06 Shara But if the MTG devs don't care to reply, I don't care to code anything
18:06 benrob0329 I can get diamond tools in less than a half hour, dungeons and mese just exist for no reason, and there is no big goal your journey leads you to
18:06 Shara A few people suggested my handholds mod for inclusions, but again the devs can't seem to decide if they want it
18:07 Shara It always seems to come down to the devs not knowing what they want
18:07 benrob0329 Why am I getting bronze tools if diamond is ten minutes away?
18:07 Shara So how can we contribute?
18:07 rubenwardy benrob0329, progress is something we need more of, but how do we obtain that?
18:07 Shara Decide what is wanted
18:08 benrob0329 Step 1: find something that lacks substance
18:08 benrob0329 Step 2: add substance that makes sense with the rest of it
18:08 Shara LazyJ suggested adding fishing a while back. Not of huge interest to me, but it would give content and something to do.
18:09 tenplus1 fishing would be fun, and a good use for string
18:09 rubenwardy also: https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/projects/1
18:09 rubenwardy yeah, I'd approve fishing
18:09 Shara rubenwardy: and actually, I'm just going to change my mind and say teleportation is an issue
18:09 benrob0329 Giving mere a reason to exist would be good
18:09 Shara You can set one single point to teleport back to in MTG, with no rationale behind it either
18:09 benrob0329 *mese
18:10 Shara What if a player wants an underground base and one on a mountain?
18:10 rubenwardy it's not near the top of the biggest issues we have
18:10 tenplus1 maybe having the odd meteor crater appear on the map would be interesting, to provide something rare
18:10 rubenwardy I like that
18:10 rubenwardy make Space Swords
18:10 Shara rubenwardy: no, but when issues involve "it's not fun/interesting", adding content, especially that which improves playability, helps
18:11 rubenwardy https://i.imgur.com/FczEV.jpg
18:11 jas_ if you make it X for Player A, player B will want Y.  lol!
18:11 tenplus1 I really like the binoculars for zoom and map for hud map, those are good items
18:11 benrob0329 Putting lore and the remains of a slimsation
18:11 tenplus1 build a story on MESE and it's appearance in the world...
18:12 benrob0329 Putting lore and the remains of a civilization in dungeons would be a neat idea
18:12 benrob0329 I've had a backstory in my head for years now
18:12 tenplus1 do tell ?
18:13 jas_ minetest_game has to be generic enough so that others can use it as a base for their own games
18:13 Shara rubenwardy: also why is adding bows a thing on the roadmap when mobs are not? Adding mroe weapons without mobs seems quite silly really.
18:13 jas_ because if you make minetest_game in "A Real Game" then a new base stock sub-game will need to be made
18:14 rubenwardy Shara, mobs are on the roadmap
18:14 tenplus1 mt_game is already a raw base, other than carts/boats there's nothing really fantastic added
18:14 Shara Opps, missed it :D
18:14 rubenwardy mobs are required before bows
18:14 jas_ it has tons of stuff
18:14 jas_ minetest_game is chalk full of content
18:14 jas_ chock full :)
18:14 Shara No seperate base game is needed as long as things are modular
18:14 tenplus1 lol, default content... things we need to simple run a world... but nothing like portals or mobs etc
18:15 Shara Don't want mobs? - delete that directory, done.
18:15 tenplus1 or disable the mod
18:15 Shara well, you can't from the client
18:15 tenplus1 the mob tab should allow you to disable ANY mod including built in
18:15 Shara should, but doesn't
18:16 tenplus1 fors ervers and singpleplayer
18:16 Shara this roadmap is also very limited.
18:16 Shara surely there is more than this desired?
18:16 benrob0329 Orkkis are the aliens that used mese to power their civilization, but that civilization fell leaving the remains as dungeons. Remnants of the Mese can be found underground, and its strange properties are still being explored to this day.
18:16 benrob0329 Dungeon Masters were created by the Orkkis to mine and protect the remaining strongholds they still possessed, and both roam the underground hoping one day to rebuild their once great civilization.
18:16 tenplus1 e.g.   Farming Redo replaces built in farming, would be nice to disable built-in properly and use what I select instead of forcing an override
18:16 rubenwardy there is, Shara, but everything else is too controversial for the minimal game MTG is
18:18 rubenwardy benrob0329, I like that
18:18 benrob0329 Much of the lore could be implied without books or letters, and it fits with what we have alreadys from c55
18:18 jas_ fwiw, i liked the idea of building minimal up to show all content and features of the engine, and minetest_game to be a real game
18:18 Shara rubenwardy: so you are basically saying there is very little to do with MTG until it's as complete sa it's going to be in terms of content and things to do
18:18 jas_ but i never got to use minimal, because i couldn't "play" it like i can play stock minetest_game
18:19 rubenwardy ?
18:19 jas_ i've been a lot of hours into stock minetest_game too.  what's not enjoyable about digging thousands of nodes down?
18:19 jas_ haha i kid
18:19 Shara Well that's what the result is, if everything else is too controversial
18:19 * tenplus1 has done just that :D
18:19 rubenwardy I only added things to the roadmap if they were agreed upon
18:19 jas_ but seriously i've dug a lot of nodes
18:19 jas_ as i'm sure you all have, i just haven't placed so many.  minetest_game, to me, is still fun
18:19 Shara But if I can't get dev replies on issues because you don't view my ideas as important enough, I give up.
18:20 benrob0329 jas_: we all have, thats all there is to do half the time
18:20 rubenwardy Shara, the issue is I don't know what's best for teleportation
18:20 rubenwardy bookmarks / travel nets are too cheap
18:20 tenplus1 I'd like more ores to be added to make caves more interesting, but paramat has added underground deco so that's awesome
18:20 Shara Have you read the topic?
18:21 Shara THat is the exact kind of information I was trying to get from devs
18:22 Shara The whole reason I wanted the possibility of concept approvals was so people can bring things up for discussion and try to get the concept approved, but if the devs don't respond it goes nowhere
18:22 tenplus1 that's what this channel is suppose to be for...
18:23 jas_ minetest_game as a base sub-game is also good for educational purposes
18:23 tenplus1 central hub for admin, modders, devs, players to talk it out
18:23 Fixer benrob0329: Dungeon Masters (aka pedobears) main purpose was to create flying mountains (the way they fired caused that)
18:23 Shara Yup, but better to put issues like this on github too since more people check there, and it gives a more easily accessible record
18:23 jas_ i like the idea of minetest distributing with three sub-games: minimal, minetest_game, minetest_real_game
18:24 benrob0329 I dont
18:24 benrob0329 More to maintain
18:24 tenplus1 having a [game] tab on the menu screen to view available games, download/install and use would be awesome... we NEED 'dis
18:24 benrob0329 Fixer: that doesnt make as much sense though, they dont spawn above ground
18:24 Shara The devs have already said there aren't enough devs for MTG
18:24 rubenwardy commented, Shara
18:25 Shara Thank you
18:26 tenplus1 which is why we need the tab on menu to download user based games and advantures etc
18:27 jas_ i like sofar's warps mod, but don't believe it's appropriate for minetest_game.  didn't the addition of the home mod cause a stir?
18:27 jas_ i mean, that's why i brought up respawn in beds mod, and sethome.go/get
18:27 jas_ /set
18:27 jas_ those could be exploited somehow, like in a mese liquid potion vessel
18:27 jas_ sethome.go(mese)
18:28 Shara why'd they make a stir?
18:28 tenplus1 that's why I made the sethome functions global so they could be used like that
18:28 jas_ because it's cheating!
18:28 Shara Well there's no rationale behind it
18:28 Shara No in game reason for it to work
18:28 jas_ i believe that could be... "remedied"
18:28 tenplus1 it's up to modders to add the functionality...   inv+ and home tab uses it
18:28 jas_ ha ha ha
18:29 tenplus1 the  /home and /sethome commands use them :D
18:29 jas_ and the buttons on dcbl craft grid
18:29 Shara Most games with large maps have some kind of teleportation or fast travel options
18:30 Shara mostly because walking long distances over and over again after you did that the first time gets boring
18:30 jas_ so i made these stats using attributes, then found some like hp_max i wanted in a table for some reason, then looked at it and realized i'm storing data two ways *scratches head*
18:30 jas_ not all singleplayer maps get all that big, and not all players play online.
18:32 jas_ what i think would be most helpful, is a book mark system
18:32 jas_ i _loathe_ pressing f5
18:32 tenplus1 ehehe
18:32 tenplus1 like the map tags we have in certain mods
18:32 tenplus1 brb
18:32 jas_ if there was a way a player could "record" his actions in a "journal" say
18:32 paramat joined #minetest-hub
18:33 jas_ (coordinates, death places, "teleporation" locations)
18:33 rubenwardy reopened https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/853 -- Hunger
18:33 rubenwardy paramat, you'll want to read the history
18:33 benrob0329 What would be nice is if carts weren't laggy, and if that worked when out of range (railnet)
18:33 rubenwardy s/history/logs/g
18:33 jas_ don't they work better now?
18:33 rubenwardy !mod railnet
18:33 ShadowBot rubenwardy: <lucky [mod] railnet site:forum.minetest.net>
18:33 jas_ the carts, i mean
18:33 Megaf jas_: what doest warp mod do?
18:33 jas_ it warps
18:34 rubenwardy !mod warp potions
18:34 ShadowBot rubenwardy: <lucky [mod] warp potions site:forum.minetest.net>
18:34 jas_ carts work better now i thought.  perhaps due to loading map in view, and other changes?  anyway
18:34 rubenwardy huh
18:34 rubenwardy !mod asnasa
18:34 ShadowBot rubenwardy: <lucky [mod] asnasa site:forum.minetest.net>
18:34 jas_ warps mod by sofar is a mesh node
18:34 rubenwardy ShadowBot, go home, you're drunk
18:34 jas_ a pretty one, he made, that you punch and have to stand still for five seconds
18:34 jas_ after which it teleports you to a predefined location
18:35 rubenwardy sfan5, please may we have MinetestBot here and kick ShadowBot?
18:35 rubenwardy MTB is infinitely more helpful
18:35 * benrob0329 watches Minetest Game
18:35 sfan5 heh
18:35 Shara This was my attempt at a teleport mod: https://github.com/Ezhh/warp_potions
18:35 jas_ i've made modifications here: https://github.com/jastevenson303/warps/tree/dcbl and his is https://github.com/minetest-mods/warps
18:35 rubenwardy also, afk
18:35 Shara Wanted to make sure it had per use costs and couldn't be abused on a survival server
18:36 benrob0329 Playing Minecraft taught me something, mods need to be made because the game is so good, not because the game is so bad.
18:36 benrob0329 The day we accomplish that, we have made a good game.
18:37 jas_ very nice shara
18:37 jas_ i've always really appreciated the vessels mod
18:38 Shara I had a lot of problems on my server due to other teleport mods I tried.
18:38 jas_ i've used it somewhat, but am eager to see it used
18:38 jas_ i'd say adapt it to match the vessels mod, and try to merge it _there_
18:38 jas_ minetest_game/mods/vessels
18:38 Shara For example, players using teleports to get through the walls of houses and kill the players inside
18:38 jas_ perhaps put the functionality into sethome, or default, or a new namespace.
18:38 Shara Players going straight to really low depths for the best mining
18:38 jas_ i'd like to see sethome renamed and merged with beds
18:38 jas_ (the respawn function of beds)
18:39 Shara Players not needing to explore since they could just go anywhere
18:39 Shara And so on
18:39 jas_ well i'm just brainstorming
18:39 jas_ i go down for the sake of it, and because caverealms
18:39 Shara Well, it's why I opened that issue for MTG. I doubt warp_potions would be suitable as is, and maybe potions aren't even wanted, but I think it covers most of the basic requirements for use
18:39 jas_ they're really massive in v7, i can't tell or remember if they're bigger than their v6 counterparts
18:40 Shara Depends which version of caverealms you use
18:40 jas_ you did the -lite fork with z...
18:40 jas_ zeno
18:40 Shara Yup
18:40 jas_ iirc?
18:40 Shara https://github.com/Ezhh/caverealms_lite
18:40 jas_ yes, i'm using facedeer's subterrane mod with his caverealm fork
18:40 jas_ i found that first, and some days after saw yours and his
18:40 jas_ i'd already generated, and didn't want to reset :)
18:40 Shara -lite uses natural mapgen instead of its own mapgen, and adds a bunch of new content too
18:41 jas_ i might pick at it, i mean take a look at it some time
18:41 tenplus1 :P lite is faster generating
18:41 jas_ i'm sure
18:41 Shara Feel free, and PR or issues please if you find any problems :P)
18:41 Shara :P*
18:41 jas_ thank you, i have been meaning to check it out
18:41 jas_ that's one of the few mods i didn't touch
18:41 Shara -lite also has compatibility with ethereal worked in
18:42 jas_ i'm using v7, because it's the default, and i keep seeing paramat refer to it as the "old" mapgen haha
18:42 jas_ and i'm like, dang it was just made default
18:42 jas_ i tried valleys before with fun_caves, that's a nice mapgen.
18:42 Shara So when you run both mods, you get the ethereal mushroom textures on the underground mushrooms (they are much nicer) and improvements to ethereal's fishing system and so on
18:43 tenplus1 ooh, metal rod with glowy worm :) me likey...
18:43 Shara I like valleys a lot (CRL was actually made with valleys as the intended mapgen)
18:43 Shara But then they added the giant caves to other mapgens as well
18:44 Shara So I think it works quite well for most mapgens now
18:46 jas_ i haven't tried that new one, i can't remember its name.  carp something haha
18:46 jas_ but i really like the default stuff
18:46 jas_ i always sort of regret modding
18:46 benrob0329 Perhaps the Dungeon Masters started a secret society against the old Orkki masters, building temples deep underground with hidden vats of knowledge.
18:46 Shara carpathian?
18:47 tenplus1 underground dungeons/fortress'/temples would be great
18:47 Shara Better dungeons would be nice
18:47 benrob0329 tenplus1: we dont have a purpose for the ones we do have
18:47 Shara That's something I would like in the game I'm thinking of making
18:47 CWz So a nazi joined my server
18:48 Shara I want dungeons with content
18:48 benrob0329 Some small loot is all we get right now I think
18:48 tenplus1 yeah, loot chests and crystal lanterns etc
18:48 benrob0329 I want dungeons that tell a story
18:48 jas_ benrob0329: i like your stories so far, put 'em on a default:sign :D
18:48 tenplus1 scratches down the wall and blood spatter...... "The Saw"
18:48 jas_ i'd chuckle if i found that in a dungeon
18:48 Shara I'm indifferent to building stories into MTG itself
18:49 Shara Kind of boring if every server has the same story?
18:49 jas_ and of course there'd be no orkki (oerkki?) or dungeon master mobs, just the sign
18:49 benrob0329 Shara: servers hardly have the same game
18:49 jas_ well let's say it's based on a text file
18:49 jas_ easily translatable, and you could change the defaults of course
18:49 jas_ but yeah, i like the stories
18:50 jas_ reminds me of the really long backstories included with doom wads for some reason
18:50 benrob0329 And if the story is implied, and only lore based, that makes it easy to add extra layers per server
18:50 tenplus1 was gonna change ethereal so it takes over the floatlands biome 1000 high in the sky and have a portal to get there
18:50 benrob0329 No text means no translation :-)
18:50 Shara tenplus1: do it!
18:51 tenplus1 ehehe... that way we could keep original biomes and just have ethereal in the sky
18:51 benrob0329 I think dungeons should be rarer though
18:51 benrob0329 Finding them should be exciting, with only a few per world
18:52 Shara tenplus1: noooo... original biomes = so boring
18:52 benrob0329 Each telling more story the last
18:52 benrob0329 No writing, only atmosphere and ruins.
18:53 Shara just feels like something better left for seperate mods to me
18:53 Roger9 'Ello.
18:53 tenplus1 hi roger
18:53 benrob0329 Shara: that's the problem
18:53 Shara I'm not against a world having it's own lore (far from it), but not sure if MTG is the place
18:53 Shara It's not very special if it's the same everywhere
18:53 benrob0329 Everyone says its better for mods to deal with basic things of a game
18:54 benrob0329 MODS DON'T FIX THE GAME
18:54 Shara No, a game should deal with basic things of a game, but storyline and plot elements are not basic things
18:54 benrob0329 No, they are fundamental things.
18:54 Shara No, they really are not. They are a layer on the very top of everything else that could be dropped into multiple different base games
18:54 benrob0329 They drive the game (and player) foreword
18:55 benrob0329 Shara: you clearly haven't played many good story driven games, because the story is not just dropped in
18:55 benrob0329 No offence, but story isnt just dropped in
18:56 Shara Considering I was a developer on a game specifically work on this part of that game...
18:56 Shara MTG is not going to be a story based game
18:56 tenplus1 MESE story line...
18:56 benrob0329 "Lets leave the reason anything exists to mods"
18:57 Shara A story would fit on top of the game at best instead of being the core purpose of it
18:57 Shara Lol ten
18:57 benrob0329 Seems legit
18:57 Shara "Let's insult the reasoning of people who disagree with us"
18:57 Shara "And assume they have no experience at all"
18:58 tenplus1 how about... "humans destroyed the earth and themselves and aliens took pity on them and healed the lands and plopped what humans/players it could back so they could begin anew"...  would explain the mese deposits they used to heal the earth as mystical crystal
18:58 benrob0329 "Lets repeat the exact problem nothing gets added to MTG"
18:58 Shara Or we could decide mese is a waste product that initially appears benificial but is in fact slowly warping the land and making it more dangerous.
18:59 benrob0329 s/problem/reason
18:59 tenplus1 ooh, nice spin shara
18:59 Shara benrob0329: discuss ideas, but don't insult my knowledge.
19:00 benrob0329 Sorry, but its infuriating to hear "leave that to mods"
19:00 Shara I am not automatically wrong just because I don't agree with you. But you plunged in with the all caps and assumptions about what I know.
19:00 Shara Sorry. I most regards I agree with that frustration, but you can't go too far the other way and use it to add anything and everything.
19:01 Shara In*
19:01 benrob0329 Clearly not, but story (even if not the main focus of the game) is not secondary to customizability
19:02 IhrFussel server_unload_unused_data_timeout << if I set this value high wouldn't that mean the server accesses the DB less and takes mapblocks from RAM if already loaded?
19:02 benrob0329 Arguing that something should be removed, when it wouldn't hurt servers, and when that thing could be removed, is silly.
19:02 Shara benrob0329: I even have a storyline based game server I have been working on for some time. You don't need to include the plotline in MTG itself.
19:02 benrob0329 Shara: then why does anything exist in MTG, and why play vanilla?
19:02 Shara In fact, including it like that could be pretty damaging and could limit what you can do with it.
19:03 Shara Example: relying on players to find dungeons in some specific order
19:03 benrob0329 No! Your thinking about it all wrong
19:03 Shara I'll leave you to submit a PR then.
19:03 Shara Since I obviously don't know anything.
19:03 benrob0329 You make the story sit in the background, it doesnt limit the player it makes exploring more exciting
19:03 benrob0329 I didn't say that
19:04 Shara Mak ea PR then
19:04 Shara Make*
19:04 benrob0329 Your thinking that I want MTG to be a story driven game (which might not be hard to think based kn my earlier comments, which I apologize for)
19:04 Shara I am not a dev and have no say after all.
19:05 benrob0329 Which is not what I'm saying, I'm saying that a lore can be added in game, which makes the game more fun and give purpose to what exists
19:06 benrob0329 Its still a sandbox, the player is still free to do whatever they want, and servers can still add or remove things from it
19:06 Shara Make a PR then?
19:06 Shara Or open an issue.
19:06 * tenplus1 votes for the story to create an ice farm to open an ice cream shop and be the best in the business
19:06 benrob0329 Make a lot of PRs, then
19:06 paramat let me read logs and catch up =)
19:06 tenplus1 hi paramat
19:07 Shara benrob0329: All caps, assumptions, and now told I'm thinking about it wrong. All I said was that I'm indifferent to it, and in my opinion it should be a seperate mod. I don't think I deserved that reaction from you, and don't really want you to try to convince me.
19:08 Shara It's the devs you need to convince anyway.
19:09 CWz VanessaE, is you around?
19:09 benrob0329 Shara: Sorry, I was rash with the insults. I meant that you had the wrong idea about what I was saying, but it could have been worded better.
19:10 tenplus1 hi CWz
19:10 Shara I'm all for using games as a medium for storytelling. The potential for that is a big part of why I've been hanging around MT this long.
19:11 Shara I just honestly do not feel that MTG is the place for it.
19:11 Shara If new official games can be added, it would be good if they could have some lore and worldbuilding to them
19:12 benrob0329 And I honestly do not feel that purpose can be given to the vanilla game without some kind of backstory as to why things exist.
19:12 Shara I don't mind if you disagree with me. I just feel MTG needs to remain a bit more general than that and should focus on progression through gameplay instead
19:13 benrob0329 That is just my opinion, strong as it may be I need to work on presenting it without getting frustrated at people.
19:13 Shara Because adding in some kind of plotline to it now would either be too big a shift, or would actually be really weak. Since the game hasn't been built up with such a thing in mind, you'd basically need to remake it so that any of this mattered.
19:14 Shara And then you are talking about  ahuge undertaking that may as well be a new game anyway.
19:14 jas_ i like the idea of random signs with tips and lore and stuff
19:14 jas_ and books in bookshelves or the loot chests in dungeons.
19:14 benrob0329 Shara: Not necessarily, but I do see your point
19:15 Shara It's like... if you want to add lore and story, do it properly
19:15 benrob0329 jas_: text needs translation
19:15 paramat (.. this will take a while) indeed CSM 'flavour' restrictions will only be enforceable in 0.5.0
19:15 tenplus1 a lone sign in an underground dungeon with "The cake is a lie!" written on it :D
19:15 Shara tenplus1: pretty sure RC has a couple of them hidden away :D
19:15 tenplus1 eheheh
19:16 jas_ benrob0329: there's localization helpers and translation stuff anyway
19:17 benrob0329 But why read what can be shown? :-)
19:18 jas_ i been meaning to give a book generated based on a text file in the mod dir or worldir.  now i can't help but think about books and signs.  i have these intercomm thingies that can save a note in its metadata even when dug, those could come with some plot twists
19:18 jas_ can't wait for falling nodes with metadata pr
19:18 jas_ and *assumes kneeling position* the bindable mouse button PR
19:18 Shara The problem with random encounters (be they mobs acting a certain way or books found in dungeons, or signs on the wall with clues)... is that they get pretty repetative really quickly.
19:19 jas_ more like a challenge
19:19 jas_ what about colorization?
19:20 jas_ i'm only half joking.  sometimes less is more, and even finding a book with a note on it would be pretty fun.  now i miss the nyancat but am glad it's gone overall
19:20 Shara But imagine you find that same book in five different dungeons over the space of a week?
19:20 jas_ i'd add it back in to dcbl if it weren't for that pb&j mod
19:20 jas_ imagine the book's color corresponds to the dungeons biome!
19:20 benrob0329 Shara: thus my suggestion to make dungeons rarer :-)
19:20 jas_ welcome to... desert stone biome
19:21 Shara jas_: I'm actually working on something with different colour coded biomes at the moment
19:21 benrob0329 And making decorations content aware might be a good idea
19:21 Shara Mostly just as a test to make sure I understand exactly how they work before moving on to a serious game
19:21 benrob0329 E.g. only spawn once, or bear these coords, etc
19:21 benrob0329 *near
19:22 Shara what if the player misses it?
19:23 Shara They could be three nodes to the left of a dungeon, and the book spawns there, but they never find out
19:23 Shara So now they missed a vital clue?
19:23 jas_ game over man
19:23 jas_ reset
19:23 benrob0329 Shara: the book isnt needed, just helpful/neat to have
19:24 benrob0329 That is, if its a book that's spawned
19:24 Shara But when all content is fine to miss it all feels a bit pointless anyway
19:24 jas_ it helps against the final boss tho
19:24 benrob0329 The thing with lore is that its not needed, its just there to explain
19:24 Shara (I'm just pikcing holes so you see how much there is to consider)
19:24 paramat semems to be some misunderstanding about CSM, i don't like it, but what sfan5 writes is correct
19:24 Shara paramat: don't think anyone here likes it :(
19:24 tenplus1 ???
19:24 jas_ i actually agree with shara, lore would be for minetest_game_extended (i'm thinking of the children)
19:24 jas_ i like it
19:25 jas_ (csm)
19:25 Shara If you made a good lore related mod, it shoud be able to drop into most subgames with minimal adjustment needed
19:25 jas_ or a setting
19:25 * jas_ runs away
19:25 Shara jas_:  CSM is horrible and should never have been added as it is
19:25 benrob0329 Shara: the fact that most subgames are that similar to MTG hurts
19:25 Shara You should now be fed to a dungeon master for saying otherwise
19:25 tenplus1 ehehe
19:25 Shara And should be sentenced to miss all the hidden lorebooks forever!
19:26 Shara benrob0329: yea, mine won't be
19:26 Raven262 He *should* be fed to a dungeon master.
19:26 paramat "Yet the devs decide it's okay to accept the risks" i didn't =) i made a big fuss about CSM
19:26 benrob0329 I suppose the point of it would be that its there if you want to find it, if you want answers, but you can safely ignore it if you want
19:26 Shara Wish you'd been listened to.
19:27 tenplus1 server should be in control of WHAT client-side runs, not the player
19:27 benrob0329 And it'd make dungeons more interesting, perhaps guide some features of the game
19:27 paramat without server-provided CSMods i think CSM isn't worth it, client-provided CSM is boring and causes problems
19:28 jas_ i'd like to clarify that i like csm in 0.5.0-dev, i kinda missed it in 0.4.16.
19:28 Shara paramat: Yes!
19:29 jas_ and also yes, i was bummed to learn i couldn't feed the client the mod to run on their side
19:29 Shara jas_: I get that some players will like it a lot, but it just doesn't seem worth the problems as it is.
19:30 jas_ i don't want the player to realize it's there, that was my initial thought.  it would be something the server sent to the client to alleviate burdon
19:30 jas_ like constantly tracking whether player moved, for afk kick timer eg
19:30 jas_ but transparent to the client end user
19:30 tenplus1 I coudl have made ambience lite CSM that was passed to client through server to handle local sounds...
19:31 Shara That's what I thought the point was originally as well
19:31 red-001 tbh I didn't expect csm to go this long without server mod sending
19:31 Shara Instead we get chest inspector, and ore detector, and attempts for clients to get free items.
19:31 jas_ best laid plans
19:32 tenplus1 hi red
19:32 Shara And coloured text, and CSM generated spam and so on...
19:32 Shara Hi red-001
19:32 paramat so i'm saying, either add server-provided CSMods or remove CSM. server-provided was the primary feature and the one stated in MT's TODO
19:32 jas_ would a github issue documenting specific abuses be helpful?
19:33 red-001 it's trivial to implement and it seems the public opinion is in favour of it
19:33 jas_ the ticket would refer only to actual cases like you mention above
19:33 Shara jas_: The worry is always what potential ways to abuse it did we not learn about yet
19:33 jas_ bah
19:33 Shara And there is absolutely no reliable way for the server to block it
19:34 IhrFussel Can anybody confirm this theory? "server_unload_unused_data_timeout with high value means the server accesses the DB less and takes mapblocks from RAM if already loaded?"
19:34 jas_ i think you have it backwards, IhrFussel
19:34 tenplus1 fussel, yes, but uses a ton of memory for each player
19:34 red-001 I reason it wasn't added at beginning was to give people time to try and find exploits that would allow exploiting the client so they can be fixed
19:34 red-001 however it doesn't seem to be what happened
19:35 jas_ allow server to reject clients who use clientmods not sent by server?  or no
19:35 IhrFussel jas_, with low value the server reads too many recent mapblocks from the DB...so setting it high should at least prevent reduntant loading of recently visited mapblocks
19:36 IhrFussel redundant*
19:36 jas_ i dunno, setting the timeout high would allow more memory usage over time?  i'm absolutely just guessing.
19:36 Shara jas_: client doesn't have to admit to what it's doing though
19:36 Shara This is why it's now so difficult to fix
19:36 jas_ server can say, use this bytecode and only this and anything else is a kick?  is that feasable?
19:37 Shara Not really. Devs would never agree to that kind of approach.
19:37 IhrFussel Yes I don't care about RAM usage..MT can take all my 4 GB (it only uses max 1 right now) ... I try to do everything to reduce DB accesses since those cause my lags...it's just those
19:37 sfan5 aside from being insecure, it's not feasible as you can't verify what the client says it's using
19:37 Shara (and I'd agree with them not agreeing)
19:38 sfan5 unless you put some (even if simple) DRM into the bytecode, which provokes the usual responses regarding FOSS
19:38 Shara Basically, MT let something out of the bag which now has no good solution as it stands
19:38 red-001 better remove all of csm then use bytecode, I wouldn't want minetest be be know as that game where you can get a virus by joining a server
19:38 Fixer nah, mt has hackers anyway, even without csm
19:39 tenplus1 that's why I was so eager for 0.5.0 update, it forces servers to update and cuts out many fake games... but not for all
19:39 Fixer instead start working on noclip and fly prevention
19:39 Shara CSM has drastically dropped the entry level into cheating
19:39 red-001 are the csm limits not working as intended?
19:39 Shara red-001: client side only
19:40 Shara Server still has no real control at all
19:40 red-001 so? All this was client side to start with
19:40 Shara But entry level for cheating has been permanently lowered by this
19:40 Shara In the past you would have to write your own code... now the code for CSM gets dumped on the forum for anyone to take, and they disable one check in their client?
19:40 jas_ minetest, now with supercharged chat spam and colors.  if only there was blinking text!
19:41 Shara Puts all this at the same level as fly/noclip.
19:41 tenplus1 lol jas, dont give anyone ideas
19:41 IhrFussel red-001, we server owners were "fooled" in a way: We thought you meant by restriction that we have the TOTAL control over which client accesses what data from the server
19:41 Shara So basically, server owners asked for more control of such problems, and now have even more worries instead :)
19:41 red-001 IhrFussel, fair point
19:41 * tenplus1 just wants a disable switch for csm
19:41 Shara Yup, I was under the impression the flavours would be server side
19:41 benrob0329 CSM should be completely server dictates imo
19:42 tenplus1 +1
19:42 benrob0329 *dictated
19:42 Shara But apparently it can't be done, so we're now stuck with this dispite the devs having admitted the issue
19:42 red-001 changing that is easy, getting people to agree on a single solution is hard
19:42 benrob0329 If the server is yourself, then you can install any csm you want.
19:42 Shara How can it be fixed then?
19:42 jas_ so a server can not detect whether a playing is using malicious code on their end, any more than whether they're flying?  i just can't believe it!
19:43 IhrFussel I'm pretty sure that almost every serious server owner would agree with server-side restrictions
19:43 benrob0329 0.5.0 is breaking, fix it there
19:43 Shara I want the ability to tur off CSM for everyone, not just for players who don't happen to compile their own clients
19:43 Shara turn*
19:43 jas_ but it's in their client, i take it?
19:43 IhrFussel It's mainly the core devs who disagree cause "DRM"
19:43 jas_ so you'd have to... configure their client?  maybe you can set their .conf values :D
19:43 jas_ i wouldn't want a server to mess with mah keys
19:44 Shara Given CSM was specifically made for servers (it doesn't have any singleplayer role), the fact that it's  the server owners who are unhappy should say a lot
19:44 benrob0329 I wouldn't mind some settings being settable by the server
19:45 red-001 Shara, that's possible as long as you figure out how to deal with bultin
19:45 benrob0329 Like node outline visibility (a server might not want selection boxes visible(
19:45 IhrFussel You could add a message to the connecting client "warning" him that certain functions are disabled on that server
19:45 red-001 and the players haven't read the lua c api docs
19:46 Shara red-001: as long as 'I' figure it out?
19:46 red-001 sorry I didn't mean that
19:46 red-001 as long as someone figures it out
19:47 red-001 since I'm at a lose at how to deal with bultin
19:47 red-001 loading it from the server would be a compatibility nightmare
19:47 benrob0329 English: where you (singular) and you (plural) are the same word.
19:47 red-001 loading it from the client would make the change pointless
19:47 sfan5 what's the problem with builtin?
19:48 benrob0329 Its easily changed client side code
19:48 benrob0329 Afaik
19:48 Aerozoic joined #minetest-hub
19:48 red-001 or I guess csm could be rewritten to not need builtin
19:48 tenplus1 hi Aerozoic
19:48 sfan5 oh that
19:48 Aerozoic wazup peeps
19:49 sfan5 you can just compile the sha256 of builtin into the binary and it would check it
19:49 sfan5 since if you can compile the binary you can just disable the flavor checks anyway
19:49 red-001 ^
19:49 red-001 meaning we are back to the start of all this
19:49 sfan5 no
19:49 sfan5 you have solved the problem of people editing csm builtin to get around the server saying "don't load any csm mods"
19:50 red-001 you add checks and they only affect people that don't compile their own clients
19:50 benrob0329 Again, I feel like csm should only be given to the client by the server
19:51 Shara I don't mind players setting things like which fonts they see and so on... but then most of the things I can think of like that should be client settings anyway really
19:51 sfan5 red-001: compiling your own client is hard on: windows, mac os, android, iOS
19:51 sfan5 that covers enough of the playerbase
19:52 IhrFussel If a server has too many CSMs the client will need to download a bunch of data on each connection since I don't think it would make sense to cache CSMs sent by the server
19:52 Shara sfan5:  I've compiled two different MT versions on Windows so far, so it can't be 'that' hard to anyone who has a clue :)
19:52 red-001 I don't see a reason for not caching csm
19:53 tenplus1 when crafting is there a way to obtain a full stack of items instead of clicking like a madman
19:53 sfan5 Shara: the average minetest player is a child with a mobile phone
19:53 sfan5 not someone experience with programming
19:53 IhrFussel It would add another step (checking cached CSM version/hasg against server version/hash)
19:53 sfan5 +d
19:53 Shara I've never really been worried about the app users, since I very much doubt they are the ones enabling noclip for themselves either
19:53 red-001 Shara, as I see it you are asking for an impossible to solve issue to be solved completely, this can only really be mitigated, unless you have full control over what code the users machine executes
19:53 Shara But I've had enough of them to deal with
19:54 sfan5 ok, then: the average non-mobile minetest player is a child on their parents computer
19:54 Shara red-001: odd, I thought I am the one who acknowledged it can't be solved
19:54 sfan5 still not someone experienced with programming
19:54 benrob0329 tenplus1: spam middle mouse click
19:54 tenplus1 whassat do ben?
19:54 benrob0329 Grabs 10 at a time
19:54 red-001 even if you remove csm someone could program thier own version of it or revent the commit
19:54 tenplus1 thanks dude
19:55 benrob0329 red-001: someone could also edit the c++
19:55 Aerozoic Anybody know if there's an easy way to add a priv to all existing accounts?
19:55 Shara CSM removed completely would still be more of a barrier than the current situation
19:55 benrob0329 At that point your talking about someone who knows what their doing
19:56 IhrFussel If we just add a way to tell the client "no CSMs" for now we would be back to "need to edit c++ to cheat" at least
19:56 sfan5 IhrFussel: flavor limits are exactly that
19:56 Shara FUssel, it will be that, but it means editing needed is very minor
19:56 benrob0329 CSM that is server-only makes sense imo
19:56 sfan5 ^ i wish i could pin msgs on irc
19:56 sfan5 because that's just gold
19:56 Shara It's at "switching fly on" level instead of "I now need to code all this stuff myself" level
19:57 Shara benrob0329: read some more :)
19:57 sfan5 Shara: since csm can't be removed without any trace the barrier would still be "git revert <some commit>"
19:57 sfan5 which isn't a lot more than "edit this line"
19:57 IhrFussel I thought flavors are client-side? So you mean the server tells the client what to do and the client either follows those rules or (if modified) doesn't?
19:57 Shara sfan5: I know.
19:57 benrob0329 sfan5: then build, fix incompatibilities, etc
19:57 red-001 wipe the commit history by sqaushing it into one commit called "make changes"
19:57 sfan5 ^
19:58 benrob0329 ^
19:58 sfan5 IhrFussel: yes, that's how every other feature works too
19:58 Shara sfan5: what I said above was trying to explain to Fussel, not making any claim it would fix it
19:58 sfan5 every other = e.g. the fly/noclip code
19:59 IhrFussel sfan5, flavors don't exist in 0.4.16 AFAIK so until they switch to 0.5.0 they are out of luck? Or will flavors be backported?
19:59 Shara I'm obviously pretty unimpressed with this, and I think it's stupid that CSM was ever added since it does nothing at all helpful, but I get that now we're stuck with this mess
19:59 benrob0329 Shara: I know that flavors are becoming a thing, but they have problems too
19:59 sfan5 correct, no they won't backported
19:59 Shara benrob0329: nope, the whole issue is that flavours are not that much help
19:59 Aerozoic wuts a flavor?
20:00 IhrFussel Aerozoic, CSM restrictions
20:00 benrob0329 Can 0.4 just be abondoned, everyone move to 0.5 with fixed csm
20:00 Shara It's not fixed >.>
20:00 paramat phew caught up =)
20:00 IhrFussel But you do know that 90%+ of the server list right now don't use 0.5.0 and likely won't when it releases either? It will take a looong time until major servers switch
20:00 Shara paramat: don't tell us and ruhn away while you still can :D
20:01 benrob0329 Or, Server Provided Client Side Scripts
20:02 benrob0329 #MakeCsmGreatInTheFirstPlace
20:02 tenplus1 lolol
20:02 IhrFussel o you have any clue how many active players on my server use iOS? I would lose ALL of them if I switch to 0.5.0 ... and I'm sure there are other servers with very important iOS players
20:02 IhrFussel Do*
20:02 paramat essentially, devs need to commit to adding server-provided CSM, otherwise we're better off removing CSM. so who's planning to work on it? red-001
20:03 tenplus1 I vote to remove it
20:03 benrob0329 IhrFussel: iOS forks are illegal
20:03 Shara I'd like it gone, though I recognise fully that it does little to adress the underlaying concerns at this stage
20:03 tenplus1 we need an official ios release but it'll cost to get it on the damn app store
20:03 Shara IhrFussel: I'm in no hurry to update to 0.5 for the same reason
20:03 IhrFussel benrob0329, I honestly don't care whether my players use something official or not as long as they follow my rules and contrinute to my server
20:04 IhrFussel contribute*
20:04 benrob0329 I vote to remove client provided mods, but retain the api for server use.
20:04 red-001 I mean I could get a draft working in a day or two
20:04 red-001 it's not hard to do and I implemented it as a PoC before
20:04 Shara Would server-provided CSm actually address the issues?
20:05 benrob0329 (And then squash commits to avoid a revert)
20:05 IhrFussel All those "illegal" forks on iOS are widely used on MT servers... and I will not want to lose those just cause I cannot have important restrictions/features for my server version
20:05 red-001 Of people being able to modify their client ofc not
20:05 Shara That's not the issue
20:05 red-001 you would need to get rid of minetest for that
20:05 tenplus1 server side csm gives the owners control over the mods run on client side so no-one should be able to cheat at all
20:05 Shara The issue is the server not being able to control this
20:05 Shara Can someone confirm if what tenplus1 just said is correct? If so, please make it happen
20:06 paramat server-provided CSM doesn't improve the cheating situation, but at least gives CSM a reason to exist
20:06 benrob0329 Itd allow us to have things like prediction in the future without the worry of cheating
20:06 IhrFussel No the reason is license conflicts
20:06 Shara benrob0329: paramat's statement just proved you wrong
20:06 IhrFussel the Apple store doesn't really allow GPL software
20:06 paramat no tenplus is wrong
20:06 tenplus1 ?
20:06 Shara So what I suspected. Just adds more on top and doesn't address the issue :)
20:06 benrob0329 paramat: how does it not remove cheating?
20:07 tenplus1 if server owners are in control of the mods loaded on client-side then HOW can the client cheat ?
20:07 sfan5 server-side csm is a oxymoron and does not exist
20:07 Shara Giving the server the ability to provide something doesn't magically make it able to detect and prevent what the client is doing
20:07 tenplus1 csm mods loaded from server and RUN on client...
20:07 sfan5 server-provided csm mods do not do anything to hinder cheating whatsoever
20:07 red-001 I mean I'm kinda confused what exactly do you want? You are saying it's not the user being able to modify the code before compiling but it does seem to be that
20:07 red-001 do you want to remove*
20:07 Aerozoic What about simply blocking CSM from sending data to the server?
20:08 Shara red-001: I don't think there is any real fix
20:08 benrob0329 sfan5: we mean to disallow client provided mods
20:08 sfan5 you can do that already in 0.5
20:08 paramat cheating will always be possible by altering a client, the only total protection against cheating is serverside checking of player actions (there's already a WIP PR)
20:08 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
20:08 benrob0329 Completely
20:08 tenplus1 hi thomas
20:08 red-001 I really don't see the point of discussing this then if there is no fix
20:08 sfan5 ^
20:08 Shara The barrier to cheating has been reduced too much.
20:08 red-001 if you don't think anything you do can change this why do anything?
20:09 benrob0329 If clients cannot provide code they cannot use that to cheat
20:09 Shara I'm not the dev or someone who worked on CSM.
20:09 Shara and red-001, you are actually the one who said this was fixable to begin so...
20:09 * Shara shrugs
20:09 benrob0329 If you remove the git history they cannot revert
20:09 Roger9 I don't think a CSM can do anything a hacked client can't...
20:09 ThomasMonroe hey tenplus1, been a while
20:09 IhrFussel Shara, CSM flavors in 0.5.0 will fix that partly (cause it requires editing c++ code to cheat just like before CSM) but the actual problem is that it will NOT be in 0.4.17
20:10 red-001 well the client always provides code, the code executed by the cpu is usually loaded from storage that the client controls
20:10 Shara IhrFussel: I think you are off the mark, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself
20:10 red-001 if CSM flavours or even being able to tell clients to turn off csm doesn't fix this for you there is nothing that can
20:10 Shara So last time: the problem is that it reduces the barrier to just changing one check in the code, whereas before you needed to actually write your own code.
20:10 Shara And that difference is actually quite a big leap.
20:10 sfan5 IhrFussel: backporting does not work as 0.4.17 will have backwards compat, if you connect with a .16 client to a .17 server flavor will have no effect at all
20:11 benrob0329 Flavors completely disable things, not just user provided mods
20:11 red-001 trust me 99% of users can't change one check
20:11 Shara red-001: I had enough trouble with people using fly/noclip on my servers already
20:11 red-001 over 99%
20:11 Shara So it happens enough as far as I'm concerned
20:11 IhrFussel Enabling fly just requires 1 line to be changed AFAIK... but barely anyone does it
20:12 benrob0329 IhrFussel: it requires you to build the engine
20:12 Shara Fussel, you are lucky then. I've had a lot of problems with it more than once
20:12 benrob0329 User provided csm does not
20:12 red-001 I remember all the panic after someone released a modded client for cheating and see what came of that
20:13 IhrFussel benrob0329, I thought CSM flavors is c++?? You confuse me now
20:13 red-001 seems most would be cheaters can't even google
20:13 paramat CSM is c++ yes
20:13 Shara But since people are just going in circles or not understanding, red-001 is right that it is pointless to carry on.
20:13 benrob0329 Flavors restrict csm in general but still allows it if a server provided csm needs a feature
20:13 paramat *CSM flavours is c++
20:13 CalebDavis joined #minetest-hub
20:13 tenplus1 hi caleb
20:13 Shara I will be considering whitelisting my servers or making them private, at least my survival server.
20:14 CalebDavis hi ten
20:14 IhrFussel Ok so fact: With 0.5.0 the situation will be kinda be the same like before CSM introduction again meaning you cannot simply add some lua and cheat the server
20:14 sfan5 correct
20:14 benrob0329 So with flavors, you can leave it useful and open to abuse, or closed and pointless.
20:15 paramat well flavours only restricts the dangerous functions (get node etc)
20:15 benrob0329 Because the user can still provide arbitrary code.
20:15 IhrFussel Okay but that still doesn't help 0.4.X servers that don't want to switch yet
20:15 Shara left #minetest-hub
20:16 Fixer so much spam in chat
20:16 paramat personally, my controversial opinion is to remove CSM
20:16 jas_ hi Fixer !
20:16 tenplus1 +1 paramat
20:16 benrob0329 IhrFussel: 0.4x cannot be helped, its already broken
20:17 paramat i'm not even sure server-provided CSM is worth the trouble
20:17 benrob0329 Unless its made incompatible with 0.4.16 its useless to patch the 0.4 branch
20:17 tenplus1 if the sql checks are reduced (what shiva said earlier) that'll help speed things up so csm wont really be needed
20:17 IhrFussel benrob0329, but the core devs leave server owners with established userbase helpless now in a way since they need to accept that their servers can be compromised very easily by CSMs
20:17 paramat however, this is not a pleasant thing to suggest due to the work put in
20:18 tenplus1 I know, it's a good idea but with NO control over the feature itself... doesnt help
20:18 benrob0329 IhrFussel: yup, thats the problem
20:18 paramat but i think it might be best
20:19 benrob0329 Client Side Code is useful for servers to reduce load, its useful for cheating if the user can provide it.
20:19 IhrFussel No matter what you decides it only helps those who switch to 0.5.0 and risk losing their userbase
20:20 benrob0329 IhrFussel: unfortunately yes, although you could ban users if they use 0.4.16
20:21 IhrFussel benrob0329, 0.4.16 cannot connect to 0.5.0 I think...min protocol was bumped
20:22 Donbatman Server owners should get together and set a date to upgrade. THen let all players know that on that date they need to upgrade to 0.5.0
20:22 benrob0329 IhrFussel: if a fixed 0.4x release was made, you could kick all 0.4.16 clients
20:22 jas_ all players?
20:22 Fixer hello
20:22 benrob0329 jas_: force them to upgrade or downgrade
20:22 Fixer people here over dramatisizing
20:22 Donbatman A simple mod that sends a chat to let them know every 10 minutes
20:22 IhrFussel Donbatman, I can show you how many players still connect with 0.4.11 clients
20:23 benrob0329 IhrFussel: upgrade or downgrade bases on feature checks, but dont allow 0.4.16
20:24 IhrFussel Okay well not a lot use 0.4.11 anymore but this morning someone joined with one... now let's see 0.4.12
20:24 Donbatman IhrFussel I understand many clients are still behind on things but it is either move forward trying to improve minetest or catter to people who don't upgrade
20:25 IhrFussel The problem is that iOS users cannot play anymore since (likely) nobody will create an "illegal" 0.5.0 app
20:26 jas_ i was under the impression they never could
20:26 jas_ there was not an official minetest for iOS, due to their ToS
20:26 benrob0329 jas_: can and should are different
20:26 IhrFussel They couldn't right now cause the switch to c++11 and some other things messed up the build tools
20:26 jas_ that's android too, not just iOS, afaik
20:27 Donbatman Someone should try to get ahold of a person that made the iOS app and see if they can make a 0.5.0 app
20:27 IhrFussel Yes...but my theory is that (at least on Android) devs *will* fork 0.5.0 Android MT and create their apps again
20:27 sfan5 Donbatman: which iOS app are you referencing?
20:27 Donbatman I am saying any iOS app
20:28 Donbatman I do not use apple so I know nothing about the apps
20:28 tenplus1 I dont like apple for the fact they wont let anyone install there own apps without the store
20:29 IhrFussel tenplus1, unfortunately iPhones and iPads are extremely popular in the world...and many parents rather buy their kids one of those vs a cheap Android device
20:30 tenplus1 *shudder* would prefer android any day
20:30 IhrFussel But I cannot tell my active iOS users "go buy an anroid phone"
20:30 IhrFussel android*
20:30 Fixer well, both ios and android are kinds of shit, it is just one is more "anal"
20:31 IhrFussel Android is definitely more open
20:32 IhrFussel Not sure about Google ToS but Apple states "you don't own this device you just buy the license to use it"
20:33 jas_ i wanna add a crouch but i'm outta buttons
20:34 jas_ want to add a crouch, with eye height adjustment, model animation, and collision adjust so players can fit through 1-node spaces
20:35 Fixer buy raspb pi and setup retropi with bestest games of ERA, bestest
20:36 jas_ minetest_game best game
20:36 jas_ my favorite thing in the dry shrubs
20:36 Fixer back in my day i had zx and nes, now you have everything, easy to setup and to DL (harhar)
20:37 Fixer so kids can have maximum fun, without walled gardens, microshitzactions, etc
20:37 jas_ i had doom with pc speaker, that was awesome i need to use my pc speakers more
20:37 jas_ beep
20:37 sfan5 minetest should release its own tablet hardware
20:37 jas_ loooool
20:38 Donbatman Fixer, I am guessing you had to walk uphill through 3 feet of snow to go play your nes too right?
20:38 Fixer not really, I had to walk few houses away to 33MHz PC
20:39 Fixer and snow is kinda sucks in Europe (too little)
20:39 Fixer for some it is nice, no need to shovel that crap, but for some reason I like to shovel it (physic and that general winter feel)
20:39 jas_ it's so wonderful.  mmm, shoveling snow in the cold
20:41 tenplus1 nite folks o/
20:41 tenplus1 left #minetest-hub
20:46 jas_ better than shoveling in the heat i guess, the snow gets heavy when it's wet lol
21:12 Aerozoic joined #minetest-hub
21:33 benrob0329 Fixer: come to Michigan sometime :-P
21:33 benrob0329 You can have all the shoveling you can muster :-)
21:38 Raven262 joined #minetest-hub
21:42 benrob0329 paramat: what do you think about adding some out of the way lore into MTG
21:42 benrob0329 Spruce up dungeons and the like with it
21:44 benrob0329 (I'm going to make an issue discussing the idea in more detail)
21:51 paramat well it depends of course, but i agree with Shara, MTG is too general and neutral for some things
21:51 paramat but will address the specifics you raise
21:56 benrob0329 paramat: the idea is that it stays hidden and out of the way if the player doesnt want to explore it, but adds more depth for why things are the way they are.
21:57 Aerozoic joined #minetest-hub
21:58 paramat my opinion on today's discussion about MTG is that when it comes to fun, excitement, interest: new games are where it's at, MTG will always be somewhat limited by having to be a mod base, and because so much depends on it
21:59 paramat however it will continue to be improved, i have a lot of stuff on the way
22:00 paramat games made without the slowness of official dev, and made by small teams or one person, will likely be more interesting
22:02 paramat so i think some pressure needs to be taken off MTG in terms of people's expectations, and new games need to be encouraged
22:06 sfan5 maintaining / writing a whole new subgame is not easy and it seems most people just want to play "minecraft but not quite" with some addtl. mods
22:07 paramat yes, so we'll continue to improve MTG and move it closer to being a 'game'
22:10 Shara joined #minetest-hub
22:11 benrob0329 Wb Shara
22:11 Shara Thanks.
22:12 benrob0329 paramat: I think MTG can be made fun, while still being modular and small
22:12 benrob0329 Fun does not need to bee complex, simplicity can be blissful
22:12 Shara What I want to know, on the topic of subgames, is what the odds are of getting more official subgames added (assuming suitable ones can be produced)
22:12 sfan5 Shara: made small changes to the news post, thoughts? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=300744
22:13 sfan5 or maybe my changes are small enough not to be noticeable :P
22:13 Shara I detect extra bold
22:14 sfan5 yea
22:14 Shara But seems nice and clear to me
22:14 paramat odds are high if a game is not too similar to MTG (as many are)
22:14 Shara (Also sorry for not just making a post myself earlier - but since I can't post to that forum, it felt a bit silly :P)
22:15 Shara paramat: I have some plans as you know, and though there will be some similarities, I hope what I have in mind will be different enough.
22:15 benrob0329 While I am very excited to see new games and projects, I think we still need to make the default game fun. I agree that MTG need to be lightweight and modular, but I think we can make due with that :-)
22:15 Shara Biggest challenge is the sheer amount of work
22:16 Shara And I guess I worry that very few subgames seem to get much attention, and that without official status, they will never really be picked up by new people the way MTG is
22:16 Shara It's MTG's status as the only official game that makes it such a focus for criticism.
22:16 benrob0329 Inside The Box is a great example of a non-orthodox game made with Minetest, and I can't wait to see more projects like it
22:17 paramat i guess we should also re-assess the existing games for inclusion
22:17 benrob0329 I also hope to see adventures, roleplay, and more created. But we still need to give a good first impression
22:17 Shara I struggle to think of any that are different enough and also complete enough, but I didn't play that many subgames yet
22:18 benrob0329 Don't overwhelm the user with choices (this is honestly the biggest complaint I hear about MT ready)
22:18 benrob0329 *already
22:18 Shara Some good subgames like CTF and Inside the Box are clearly server focused, so not suitable for inclusion in that way
22:18 Shara benrob0329: complaint from who? I never heard that from anyone
22:18 benrob0329 Right now, a new user cannot just pick up the game and play
22:19 Shara That's not about choices though
22:19 benrob0329 They have to set up things or connect to a server
22:19 Shara And actually you can, but MTG is the only official game and is boring
22:19 benrob0329 Its from someone who doesnt like 3000 options
22:20 Shara I don't really get it. Pick up game, select singleplayer or server, play
22:20 paramat i haven't noticed people complain about choices, they usually want more
22:20 Shara The problem is only one official game as a choice, and people struggle when it comes to adding mods/games themselves
22:20 benrob0329 Which was the point of his comment (which others peers agree with him)
22:20 Shara I've actually lost players on my servers... as a result of explaining to them how to install mods
22:21 benrob0329 Too many mods, too many choices, you can't just play and have fun unless you join a server
22:21 benrob0329 Or sift through mods
22:21 Shara That's not about too many choices. It's about not enough default choice without learning to jump through hoops
22:21 benrob0329 (I don't have a problem searching through mods, but I like tweaking everything)
22:22 benrob0329 Shara: that's a better way to put it
22:22 paramat 'too many mods' heh
22:22 benrob0329 But having 10 different default games may be a bit too much "default choice"
22:22 Shara If MT game with a small number of games, or had an easy way to let the user get more from the client, a lot would be solved
22:23 Shara Since there is just one now, I doubt another nine will appear over night
22:23 paramat well once someone makes an exciting game we can make it the default. and MTG will improve (skins mod, simple mobs)
22:23 Shara I think the bigger worry is there being no suitable games right now, not there being too many :)
22:24 paramat yes
22:24 benrob0329 paramat: will the Dungeon Master and Orkki be returning?
22:24 benrob0329 They were the only official mobs to ever be in MT
22:25 * benrob0329 uploaded an image: 79d5239590597beaf4565568fafb0d00-d6li8k1.jpg (341KB) <https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/down​load/matrix.org/LtBteJTpBHTlrvwwkZiwOBVU>
22:25 benrob0329 I still want this to be a thing in-game :P
22:27 benrob0329 Question, would mobs be allowed to have some angles faces or would the models have to look pixelated?
22:28 paramat cuboid and simple for consistency with player model
22:29 paramat many mob mods have models far too fancy
22:33 benrob0329 paramat: yes, but it woukd be more difficult to to a waistline as a block than as a small angle
22:33 Fixer mtg right now is pretty much sandbox game (that is pretty much creative), but it has this other survivalist parts (like mining, smelting, farming) - so it is not just sandbox, then it is incomplete survival
22:33 benrob0329 (And require more polygons)
22:34 benrob0329 The point would be to make the DM seem "buff" rather than cuddly as the current model does
22:35 paramat which current model?
22:37 benrob0329 Mobs_Redo or Simple_Mobs
22:39 benrob0329 The nickname among my friends was "teaddy bear", we didn't even know it was hostile at first lol
22:39 benrob0329 we learned rather quickly
23:07 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
23:18 Fixer when i seen it in 0.3 - it coincided with pedobear meme, so I named that way, and in a way it had some visual similarities
23:18 Fixer teddy bear is much more peaceful
23:23 paramat joined #minetest-hub

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