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IRC log for #minetest-hub, 2017-10-07

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 jas_ !tell nerzhul network_asio works OK on LAN, can connect to server on remote host A-OK.  when I connect to unix-experience.fr, though, i get "connection lost" dialog.
00:02 ShadowBot jas_: O.K.
00:22 jas_ https://github.com/jastevenson303/​dcbl_csm/blob/master/init.lua#L31 <-- it's funny, because yaw keeps increasing until you turn the mouse the other way :O (didn't expect that hehe) gn o/
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01:48 Aerozoic Anybody know what causes this server crash error? ERROR[Main]: ServerError: AsyncErr: environment_Step: Runtime error from mod 'default' in callback environment_Step(): /usr/local/share/minetest/bu​iltin/common/vector.lua:16: attempt to index local 'a' (a nil value)
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10:13 IhrFussel Am I understanding this PR correctly and sofar assumes that most servers have a MAX LAG value of 0.2??? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6504
10:13 IhrFussel That is completely and utterly WRONG
10:14 IhrFussel Even Xanadu has a max_lag of 0.9 sometimes with 10+ players tenplus1 said recently
10:15 IhrFussel To use the max_lag as "goodness" indicator is a bad idea in general IMO ... you penalize players with lots of mods + players that way, not sure if that's what you want to achive
10:15 IhrFussel servers with lots of mods/players*
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10:20 IhrFussel How abou adding a new average lag to the engine? I'm pretty sure that is how most other games do it on servers
10:22 IhrFussel If I look at the lag values my own mod tells me then it makes far more sense: ticks are set to 0.2 secs so 0.2 average means pretty much perfect... now sometimes it goes up to 0.25 or even 0.3 average which then indicates quite a lot of "hangs"
10:23 Krock max_lag is kind of an average value already
10:23 Krock average of maximal lag, however.
10:23 IhrFussel Krock, it is too slow, it does not give the player a "now" value
10:24 IhrFussel If the max_lag spikes to 30 secs (cause of WE) it takes up to TWENTY minutes to go back to normal again
10:24 Krock average values are never a "now" value
10:24 IhrFussel The max_lag only goes down by 0.000099 or something per tick btw
10:24 IhrFussel It's not an average
10:25 Krock it should decrease by half in 5 minutes
10:25 Krock so 1/4 in 10 minutes and 1/8 in 20 minutes
10:25 Krock https://github.com/minetest/minete​st/blob/master/src/server.cpp#L491
10:25 IhrFussel My mod still provides more useful lag values of the recent minute that's why I advise my players to use the own lag command
10:26 IhrFussel And my problem is the PR if it gets merged, like I said servers with higher load will ALWAYS have higher max_lag
10:27 IhrFussel The 90+ servers with 0.15 max_lag are probably DEAD ones
10:27 IhrFussel My server is mostly pendling between 1.2 and 2.5 secs max_lag which is alright for such a loaded server
10:29 IhrFussel At least no player complained about lag yet so I guess it itsn't major
10:36 IhrFussel The max_lag can also spike depending on what players are doing on the map...it is a not more fair compared to ping..it is even MORE unpredictable
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10:39 IhrFussel Example: max_lag was 3.2 but my lag mod showed only ONE TICK took longer than 0.5s and ALL other ticks were perfect ... now players still see 3.2 in /status and (if the PR gets merged) in the server list
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10:39 Krock so renaming max_lag to lag and simply calculating the average would be more suitable?
10:39 Krock which PR are you talking about btw?
10:40 IhrFussel Krock, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6504
10:41 IhrFussel And yes if the lag value in /status was more accurate for the recent minutes I'd be fine but not if it takes 10+ minutes to go back to normal after 1 large spike
10:42 Krock that PR looks fine. The lag calculation behind just needs tewaking
10:43 IhrFussel Also I find the lag values in his PR to be completely nonsense...like I said even xanadu has a lag of 0.9 sometimes tenplus1 said so if you really merge that PR you'd need to adjust the good/medium/bad indictaors accordingly
10:43 IhrFussel You cannot expect from a server to ALWAYS run at the set tick rate
10:44 IhrFussel That's not how it works on a server with many mods
10:44 Krock some spikes are guaranteed as soon you have moretrees or another mod that calculates the terrain height or places large structures
10:45 IhrFussel Yes and those servers now will get bad indictaors just because of those mods?
10:46 IhrFussel That's why I think the max_lag value needs to be more accurate to the current server situation...that way lag spikes caused by mods aren't present after a few minutes anymore
10:47 IhrFussel And thanks by the way for the unknown node pos PR :)
10:54 shivajiva IhrFussel: looks like a QOS indicator and will not stop players joining to see their friends, might get the dead servers the odd player though
10:54 Fixer today i've learned minetest has SILLY ping indicator that bullshits everyone not living on serverlist continent :/
10:56 IhrFussel shivajiva, I simply think it is kind of discriminating to give servers with 0 or 1 player and maybe 10 mods a good indicator and servers that built-up over time and therefore have quite a few mods and maybe also lots of players a bad one
10:58 IhrFussel The internal server lag doesn't matter the same on each server...creative servers largely don't care about lag I'd guess cause they need no "realtime" reaction
10:58 shivajiva you will get used to the bullshit ways some things are handled, in my experience none of it matters to the players, only the quality of their gameplay and playing in a dead server doesn't preclude anything other than loneliness ;)
11:01 shivajiva as I recall skyblocks and a couple of other servers spent so much time at the top of the list that they decided it wasn't fair and re-weighted it
11:02 shivajiva even though it's status at the top reflected it's popularity
11:04 shivajiva the list is just being sorted in diff ways to please diff people, clearly it offends sofar, wonder if his server is hosted in the US
11:06 shivajiva I'd like to see the ping and lag displayed in game in real time personally between the client and server
11:10 IhrFussel shivajiva, but do you agree that the max_lag value should be a bit more accurate and not display numbers that happened 5+ minutes ago?
11:11 shivajiva we need some latency or the stability of the overall picture is distorted equally
11:11 IhrFussel Or we could just add a new avg_lag value to /status so we have both avg and max over time
11:13 IhrFussel My server utilizes the areas mod and WHENEVER a player modifies a protection the server lags for 1+ sec CAUSE of the large protection file ... that is not my fault and I refuse to accept it as a fault of my server
11:14 IhrFussel I could name many more examples where I refuse to fault my code for it
11:14 shivajiva yea a current average would be good, wonder if I should investigate db storage for areas
11:14 IhrFussel to blame*
11:16 shivajiva db access becomes viable once the data set gets beyond a certain size and areas can become extremely big
11:16 shivajiva I can't see the first 400 records in the list for skyblocks it's become so big
11:16 Calinou hi
11:16 shivajiva Hi Cal o/
11:17 Calinou by the way, how many of the servers use PostgreSQL?
11:17 Calinou I've been using it and it works well so far
11:17 IhrFussel I already cleaned up my areas.dat file...I removed any area owned by a account that got deleted...but it's still ~ 7,000
11:18 shivajiva there would be a significant gain from holding the data in a way that can be accessed quickly but adds little overhead to minetest
11:19 shivajiva Cal: only one I haven't tried
11:19 Calinou I'd argue most servers should use PostgreSQL
11:19 Calinou SQLite has its limits, and using it on servers is usually a bad idea
11:19 shivajiva go on then :)
11:20 Calinou (because you might as well use RDBMSes)
11:20 Calinou client-server ones, that is
11:22 IhrFussel Anot example: With ~ 60,000 accounts in auth.txt WHENEVER a player joins the engine updates the last login timestamp so it writes the auth file anew AFAIK ... and that lags my server ~ 0.2 sec
11:22 IhrFussel Another*
11:23 shivajiva give sauth a try fussel
11:23 Calinou yeah, prune unneeded entries
11:24 IhrFussel Is that a mod or what is it?
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11:25 Calinou by the way, https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=ne​ws_item&amp;px=PostgreSQL-10.0-Released:)
11:25 Calinou just noticed
11:25 shivajiva https://github.com/shivajiva101/sauth
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11:34 Shara Hello all
11:34 Krock hi Shara
11:34 Shara Hi Krock :)
11:35 Shara shivajiva: areas on RC scare me as you know. I somehow feel like that will break one day.
11:35 Krock Calinou, so we're doing something wrong? SQLite is the default backend for ages
11:35 Calinou yes, in fact it was wrong since the beginning (or almost) :P
11:35 Calinou at least, recommending it for use on servers is a bad idea
11:35 Calinou it's fine for singleplayer
11:36 Calinou setting up PostgreSQL is not that hard
11:36 Calinou https://wiki.minetest.net/Database_backends
11:36 Calinou I should write some docs on setting up PostgreSQL for Minetest
11:37 Krock but.. dummy is fastest :P
11:38 Calinou :D
11:38 Calinou I used that one on my CTF server, since world data didn't have to be stored
11:39 Krock indeed, helpful there. Also for testing mapgen it's nice to tweak parameters and rejoin
11:40 Calinou it's a shame most popular servers run on underpowered machines, causing lag
11:40 Calinou I wish there was some kind of voting on servers, too
11:40 Calinou (simple upvotes/downvotes, like, every player can vote once per sever)
11:40 Calinou server*
11:40 Calinou so you could vote based on your experience or something
11:41 Krock which, then again, would require a master server to bundle all the information
11:41 IhrFussel Calinou, the problem is that MT uses 1 core only mainly
11:41 Calinou that's not the only problem, the default settings are quite bad
11:41 IhrFussel I'm pretty sure that my server would boost its performance quite a bit if it was able to use all 4 cores
11:41 Calinou look at https://gist.github.com/Calinou/​683cb0748efe867be6e18f86f206a6b7, compare it with the default settings
11:42 Calinou also, servers peform better on faster CPUs (single-thread performance), so a dedicated is better than a VPS, too
11:42 Calinou (most sizeable Minecraft servers run on dedis)
11:42 Calinou my server is a VPS, but I'd go dedi if I had 15+ players constantly
11:42 IhrFussel Mine runs on a dedi but not on a $100 one
11:42 Calinou there's dedi and dedi :P
11:42 Calinou the Atom ones are pretty slow
11:42 IhrFussel Opteron
11:43 Calinou Opterons are bad at single-thread performance
11:44 Krock is changing full_block_send_enable_min_time_from_building a good idea? it will increase the traffic
11:44 IhrFussel It can handle MT pretty good but since I needed so many mods (160+) of course it struggles
11:44 Calinou Krock: I don't think that setting is relevant since we have client-side node placement prediction
11:44 Calinou it used to not be the case (before 0.4)
11:44 Calinou any non-zero value will increase perceived lag, since players who need to receive MapBlocks will not have them immediately
11:45 Calinou more blocks need to be sent after all, I increased the view/generate distances to 14 :)
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11:45 Calinou (Minecraft uses 15, so I'm still lower than that)
11:46 Krock also, aren't minecraft blocks larger than ours? Y=256
11:46 Calinou they're the same size, but height is only 256 nodes indeed
11:47 Krock ah
11:47 IhrFussel What? They still didn't increase Y?
11:48 IhrFussel What makes them think that buildings don't need to be higher than 256? Ridiculous
11:48 Calinou yeah, Y is 256 in Minecraft since March 2012 :P
11:48 Calinou they tried 512, but it was too slow
11:48 Krock width of an insane s32 is more important!!!!
11:48 Calinou Krock: i128 or bust!
11:48 lisac we've got a taller building on Craigs
11:48 lisac and it's also huge
11:49 lisac https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?p=227356#p227356
11:49 IhrFussel Too slow? Then they're doing something wrong in the code I'd say...why would the max height of the map slow down map loading?
11:49 Krock we can "easily" rebuild the mt. everest and Burj Khalifa
11:50 Krock no chance for you, minecrafters
11:50 IhrFussel Are there at least mods in MC that increase the height? Or is it hard-coded?
11:50 Krock lisac, I hope WE was used to copy floors, otherwise that's a massive task
11:51 Calinou there was Cubic Chunks for Minecraft Beta 1.7.3
11:51 Calinou (before the height was 256, it was just 128 back then)
11:51 Calinou it increased height to 65,635
11:51 lisac Krock, 100% survival
11:51 Calinou or 4096, I'm not sure
11:51 Krock uh, amazing
11:52 IhrFussel Wait...are you saying MC chunks load Y 256 at ONCE?
11:52 paramat IhrFussel a max lag indicator that is influenced by brief lag spikes is actually reasonable because a player's experence of a server tends to depend on the occasional lag spikes more than the times of lower lag. however agree with adjusting the value->colour encoding (see comment)
11:54 paramat MC doesn't use cubic chunks, our behaviour is identical in all axes
11:54 Krock this means they generate much more useless data than we do
11:54 Krock unless they use a differencial method to save it to the disk
11:55 paramat but then they have less issues caused by 'mapchunks above not being generated yet' like shadow issues etc.
11:57 Calinou IhrFussel: I think it's 2× 128
11:57 IhrFussel paramat, the only problem I see in the PR is that servers likely will get penalized for having (temp) higher load caused by intensive mods running or many players actively playing
11:58 IhrFussel I wouldn't even call 0.5 sec max_lag "high" you can barely notice 0.5 sec lag
11:59 paramat wut
11:59 paramat 0.5s is a long time
12:00 IhrFussel IMO the calculation for max_lag right now is not good...it should calculate a REAL average and not decrease by 0.00...99 per tick if lag is low, that is no real average
12:01 IhrFussel average means add ALL tick times and divide by their amounts
12:01 IhrFussel amount*
12:01 paramat max lag indicator will simply be an indicator of the 'max lag you will experience on a server' so is fair and does not discriminate. all servers will be affected the same way, and most have intensive mods like moretrees and caverealms
12:02 paramat from what i've read about your server red seems accurate, you admit is has long lag spikes
12:03 IhrFussel max_lag 1.5 BUT my avg lag mod reports an AVERAGE of 0.204
12:03 IhrFussel That is a big difference
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12:04 nerzhul hello world
12:05 ThomasMonroe hi nerzhul
12:05 Fixer IhrFussel: yes, it loads Y=256 at once
12:05 Fixer IhrFussel: MC chunk is 16x16x256 iirc
12:06 nerzhul Krock, #6505 okay for a merge, if you can just fix the near condition could be nice
12:06 paramat there is no penalization, it's an indication of 'max lag you may experience', players will soon find out that the servers with more features have higher lag so will see it as a price worth paying
12:06 IhrFussel But it is FAR from reality of the recent minutes... here https://pastebin.com/BXQ5z1X4
12:07 IhrFussel When my avg lag mod reports 1.0 max lag in the last minute /status may still display 2.0 or more
12:07 IhrFussel Which is not fair
12:07 Fixer don't forget, max_lag is not a speedometer
12:08 Fixer it works differently
12:08 nerzhul nice Krock thanks, merge asap when you want :)
12:08 IhrFussel Then we need a REAL avg lag indicator like I said
12:08 Fixer you can have huge temporarely spike to say max_lag 100, and then there will be no lag while max_lag itself slowly goes down from 100 to 0 over time
12:08 Krock nerzhul, okay. Will most likely do it this evening
12:08 IhrFussel I rthink that is what players really want... an average of the recent lag values
12:09 IhrFussel Don't take the *highest* lag and call it a day, that is lazy
12:09 Fixer max_lag can be misleading
12:09 paramat "My server utilizes the areas mod and WHENEVER a player modifies a protection the server lags for 1+ sec CAUSE of the large protection file ... that is not my fault and I refuse to accept it as a fault of my server" of course it's your fault, if that lag spike occurs then an indication of that lag spike is fair and accurate
12:10 IhrFussel Okay so it#s my fault when my server has that many areas alright
12:10 paramat Ihr you write so much nonsense =)
12:11 IhrFussel You don't seem to understand that max_lag doesn't tell the player what lag awaits them NOW
12:11 Fixer IhrFussel: it is not possible anyway to now lag up front
12:11 IhrFussel It only tells them what the highest lag in the recent time was
12:12 Fixer IhrFussel: https://forum.minetest.net/viewt​opic.php?f=6&amp;t=10884#p167292
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12:13 IhrFussel "So even if max_lag is showing, say, 5.6s the current server lag may be (and probably is) a lot less." <<< and that confuses players!
12:14 Fixer IhrFussel: yeah it does
12:14 Fixer IhrFussel: start up WE, do smth, server halts for 10 seconds, unfreezes, reports 10 sec max_lag that then starts to decline _slowly_ (but there is no lag after that ofc)
12:14 IhrFussel Sometimes player tell me "ADMIN LAG IS HIGH" JUST because /status told them a high number
12:15 Shara I started to educate my players about max_lag.... now they understand what it is.
12:15 Shara These days they mostly just complain if it's increasing over time
12:15 Fixer IhrFussel: lag _was_ high
12:16 IhrFussel Server owners shouldn't act as a teacher here, the server list and /status info should simply be more accurate
12:16 Fixer _max_lag does not show current server lag_
12:16 Fixer now thats the problem
12:17 IhrFussel That the server lagged for 10 secs cause of WE is not relevant to the player who just joined and it's even less relevant if that WE action was a rare one
12:17 paramat as i wrote, the experience of a server tends to be determined more by the lag spikes more than the times between, so the lag spikes having a big influence on the indicator is ok, it shouldn't be an average as that would rarely ever indicate the lag spikes
12:18 Shara I find max_lag helpful, since it tells me when there has been something unusual I should check on. Which isn't to say another way of measuring it would not be helpful as well
12:18 Shara Stuff in f5 isn't really for a player who just joined anyway
12:18 IhrFussel paramat, just add another value then... just make it so /status shows avg_lag=0.3, max_lag=1.0 for example
12:19 Fixer +1
12:19 Fixer Shara: can you give me that script that prints max_lag?
12:19 Fixer IhrFussel: ^
12:21 IhrFussel Fixer, http://ihrfussels-server.tk/lagmod.tar.gz ... it tells you the avg/max lag per minute but you can of course adjust the time between measurements
12:21 Fixer nice, ty, i have an idea
12:21 IhrFussel Also remove the depends.txt
12:21 Fixer to visualise the problem
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12:31 IhrFussel The best way to visualize it is using WE for a big project and then comparing the minutes after to see how "fast" the max_lag goes down to the ACTUAL lag
12:31 IhrFussel In the meantime my avg lag mod will already display the real recent lag and also the real max value from that time
12:32 Fixer IhrFussel: yeah
12:33 Fixer IhrFussel: that what i wanted, kinda, just to visualise the problem
12:34 Fixer print(minetest.get_server_status()) will probably help
12:34 IhrFussel max_lag is flawed in general because NOBODY really knows where the number started...one player joins and sees it as 20 for example...another sees it as 15 the third as 12 etc etc
12:34 Shara IhrFussel: You actually get such high numbers?
12:35 Shara For me, anything 10+ is a sign somerthing happened that should not have
12:35 IhrFussel No that was an example with WE ... when you modify 10 million nodes any machine will lag 5+ secs
12:35 paramat any single value or icon would be flawed
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12:35 Shara People shouldn't really be editing insanely large areas with WE at once on servers.
12:36 Fixer Shara: with GC64 or lua you can
12:36 Shara I expect anyone I give the priv to on my servers to be mindful about what will trigger lag
12:36 Fixer GC64* is scary one though, but it works on windows
12:36 IhrFussel Shara, sometimes you have to...but WE isn't the only concern...MANY mods sometimes cause a high lag spike and max_lag just does *not* tell the player what to expect NOW
12:38 Shara Again, mods doing crazy things that generate high lag with any frequency, probably aren't great to have on a server to begin with
12:38 IhrFussel I don't see why anybody could be against a second avg_lag value in /status ... it doesn't hurt anybody
12:38 Shara I haven't said I'm against it
12:38 Shara Just surprised it's such a big issue
12:39 Shara It only seems to be the more technically aware players that press f5 and check these things, at least from my experience
12:39 IhrFussel Shara, when my avg lag mod tells me < 0.3 secs average most of the time while max_lag is somewhere in between 2-3 then YES I see it as an issue
12:40 IhrFussel Because all that says is there WAS a high lag of 2-3 seconds but nobody knows exactly WHEN or if it will happen again
12:40 Shara I can't check my averages, since right now I have a dead auth file. Auth files corrupting feels a bit more important given the security implications of when the admin account password is no longer recorded
12:41 Fixer i want better lag display too
12:41 Shara Those are the kinds of issues I'd much rather see some time devoted to
12:42 IhrFussel And if the devs won't implement a good avg_lag value I'll have to replace the ENTIRE /status output with my own
12:42 Shara IhrFussel: why not make a PR to add something then?
12:42 Shara That's how I got things I really cared about added
12:43 IhrFussel It's not about creating a PR, I'm sure that can be done in a matter of 10 minutes...I simply want agreement among devs
12:43 Shara YEa, the console option I wanted could have been done by most devs in that time too.. but two versions of me asking and no one wrote it, until I went ahead myself
12:43 IhrFussel Cause since you might know if devs are against a PR they won't merge it => wasted time
12:43 jas_ is there already an issue on tracker for this, IhrFussel?
12:44 IhrFussel jas_, I didn't check yet but there are surely "bug reports" in the forum about it
12:44 Shara The devs will work on what they feel is most important, but every one of us can contribute.
12:45 jas_ but if there's no issue on tracker, then that's a good place to start, i do believe
12:45 Shara If you can do that and just want the devs to confirm if they'd support the idea, you could ask them that directly.
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12:45 IhrFussel The max_lag issue wasn't a problem to me by the way UNTIL NOW ... cause now they want to use this misleading value for the server list
12:45 jas_ they do?
12:46 IhrFussel Yes check the newest PR by sofar
12:46 jas_ has it been merged?
12:46 IhrFussel Not yet
12:46 Shara Oh, he wants his server higher I guess
12:46 jas_ PR is pull _request_
12:46 Shara IhrFussel: link please?
12:46 IhrFussel jas_, but 2 devs already like it
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12:47 jas_ this would be a lot less of an issue, if players were able to sort columns.  is this even possible in formspec tables?  i don't think so
12:47 jas_ (maybe, never tried.)
12:47 IhrFussel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6504
12:47 jas_ (sort by ping, sort by players, etc)
12:47 Shara thanks
12:47 jas_ or even a "Sort" button, to select how to sort.
12:48 IhrFussel jas_, but to use a value that only tells the players "there was some high lag in the past but nobody knows how high it is now" is a bad idea to me
12:48 jas_ : )
12:48 jas_ i know
12:49 jas_ if it's any consolation, no one is using minetest-dev on your server.  will this be merged into 0.4.17?
12:49 IhrFussel Especially when you look at the time values... < 0.2 = good?? WHAT?
12:49 jas_ 0.02 is way better
12:50 IhrFussel The only servers that have a max_lag of <0.2 are ones with either VERY simple mods or with VERY few players
12:52 Fixer IhrFussel: here is typical example of max_lag reading after game start: https://i.imgur.com/Z1rdY50.png
12:52 Shara Dark Lands flags as orange with only six players there, but I know it's quite playable in general
12:53 Shara This basically just means if you use anything other than a really powerful server or have any players... you're in trouble
12:53 IhrFussel 4.2 max_lag, 0.205 avg lag
12:53 IhrFussel Great now any new player will think the lag is 4.2 secs
12:53 Fixer IhrFussel: have you created issue on github?
12:54 Fixer this may be a good start
12:54 Shara I don't have any issues with max_lag, but that PR is kinda... ugh
12:54 jas_ (for the avg_lag feature request)
12:55 IhrFussel Shara, does your server never go above 0.5 max_lag?
12:55 Shara IhrFussel: I do not mind that it does
12:55 Shara It is always above 1
12:55 Shara (or maybe not.. I need to check again)
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12:55 IhrFussel Well you likely would mind if that meant "bad" in the server list
12:55 Shara Did you read what I just said?
12:56 Shara (1:54:19 PM) Shara: I don't have any issues with max_lag, but that PR is kinda... ugh
12:56 Shara I don't like the PR. The PR is the issue, not max lag itself
12:56 IhrFussel Yeah sorry I read it too late
12:56 Fixer i want proper network latency display in server list
12:56 Shara I find max_lag a useful thing to tell me when there's been a problem
12:57 Shara Since if I see max lag is high, there;s probably something worth following up on
12:57 Shara Heh, DL is way too high for example, yet players don't really seem to care much
12:57 jas_ haha just noticed your server in that picture on the PR Ihr, sorry
12:57 IhrFussel It is good for server owners to see when the server hung for lots of secs i agree...but it is not useful to the player who just wants to check how reliable the gameplay/connection would be
12:58 Shara This isn't about whether it's useful for the player. It's not for the player
12:58 Fixer max lag calc: https://pastebin.com/raw/0Cir3QxT
12:58 IhrFussel But players USE it as a lag indicator cause there is nothing else to use
12:59 paramat ok i added a comment to the PR
12:59 Shara I really don't see many, other than those quickly capable of learning how to really use it, commenting on it
13:00 paramat also i commented that 'red' shows up too easily
13:01 Shara sofar says busy servers should peak at 0.02 max_lag? Am I understanding correctly?
13:01 Shara 0.2*
13:01 IhrFussel If it's not for player we need to implement a value for players...I think I will really create an issue for that later
13:01 Shara Up to 2 on max_lag is certainly fine for playing
13:02 Fixer what is "SEnv step" ?
13:02 jas_ "Busy servers will peak out above 0.2" <-- i believe that is a very large range, indeed
13:02 IhrFussel Shara, paramat says 0.5 is high
13:02 Fixer is that what we need? server step?
13:02 IhrFussel 0.5 AVERAGE would be high
13:02 Shara You know, a lot of my players on RC tell me they love the server due to how well it runs.
13:03 Shara I could understand DL not getting a green rating, but if RC doesn't there's something off
13:03 IhrFussel But we aren't talking about average... "max_lag *= 0.9998; // Decrease slowly (about half per 5 minutes)" << this has NOTHING to do with average calculation
13:03 IhrFussel At least I learned it differently in school
13:05 paramat yes 0.2 max lag is low and doesn't deserve a red
13:05 IhrFussel IMO max_lag < 0.5 is PERFECT, 0-5 - 1.0 is GOOD, 1.1 - 3.0 is OKAY and everything above can be "bad"
13:05 Shara paramat: even 2 does not deserve a red, probably not even 3
13:06 Shara 5 + maybe
13:06 jas_ there's always some coloring going on in the server list now (pictures in PR screenshot).  i think sorting ability is more valuable
13:06 jas_ sort by players, alphabet, actual ping, max_lag AVERAGE
13:06 Shara jas_: Yes! Sorting ability would be lovely
13:06 jas_ and "default" weighting
13:06 IhrFussel You think wrong about max_lag paramat you think too much "average"
13:06 paramat i didn't write 0.5 was high, i wrote 0.5 is easily caused by various mods
13:07 Shara paramat: May I please recommend that once I have RC up again, you spend some time idle there just to track max lag compared to number of players
13:07 Shara you'll see max_lag gets higher than this with the game still fully playable
13:08 jas_ what amount of time does max_lag average over, anyway?
13:08 jas_ is it ten minutes?
13:08 Shara My servers are successful and players like them. Why should I be penalised when players don't have complaints?
13:09 IhrFussel jas_, "max_lag *= 0.9998; // Decrease slowly (about half per 5 minutes)"
13:09 jas_ sofar's PR is a good concept, poor implementation, imho
13:09 jas_ i don
13:10 Shara Yes, agreed
13:10 jas_ i don't know what that means, actually HHAA
13:10 jas_ but yeah, the client needs to ping all the servers, like in quake (sorry, is that right?)
13:10 jas_ to get actual ping, and then add sort buttons.  visually seeing which servers run "hot" might be nice, but there's always coloring in server list
13:10 IhrFussel jas_, it means the value will always decrease by the same amount and if there is no more higher max_lag it would be 0 after 10 minutes
13:11 paramat Shara "you'll see max_lag gets higher than this" higher than what value? and note i do agree with you
13:11 Shara easily higher than 2 at peaks
13:11 Shara Though I think much above that is rare
13:11 jas_ allowing the client to sort this list, and giving them actual ping information, seem reasonable -- why is this not so?  is it because pinging all the servers is not ideal?  in quake, you had to hit the "refresh server list" to get new ping values
13:11 jas_ (bbfn, gl hf)
13:11 Shara Unless we're doing anything big with WE (and then we warn players in advance)
13:12 Fixer paramat: people need display of current lag, not some smoothed smth
13:12 IhrFussel On my high loaded server on a dedi I get max_lag between 1.5 and 2.5 mostly...depending on what players do it can peak to 4 or 5 once but then goes down to 1-2 again but it is pretty constant at 1-2 secs most of the time
13:13 Shara It's making me want to block these app users more and more :(
13:13 IhrFussel Shara, I sometimes get the feeling those 3rd-party-apps demand more server performance (send more data or more requests maybe)
13:14 Shara way back, the thing that made lag felt on RC was player joins...switched to remote media and it helped
13:14 Shara But all thos eocnstant joins are not helpful
13:15 paramat and i agree that 'max lag' is perhaps not the most useful value to show to players on the serverlist, but ping is meaningless of course
13:15 Fixer why can't minetest client ping itself?
13:16 Shara Fixer: Yea, was trying to think that through
13:16 Fixer like other games
13:16 Shara What matters is ping for the player
13:16 paramat Shara i don't need to join RC to experience that, i take your word for it
13:16 Shara But that also doesn't help on server list, since everyone sees the same server list at the moment
13:16 Shara paramat: thank you
13:16 Fixer for example minetest can get server list and use its ping values at first but then it starts pinging himself and reordering everything, serverlist ping is backup
13:17 Shara I assume client list syncs with main public list currently
13:17 paramat 2s of lag is annoying when it happens but is ok if it is rare, it doesn't indicate the playability of the server
13:18 Shara paramat: exactly. But due to how max lag works, it stays at the higher value for  along time
13:18 IhrFussel If it would I would probably have no players anymore...2 secs lag is really not *that* rare on my server but the players seem to be able to handle it just fine
13:18 Shara I really do like and find max_lag useful as an indicator of problems, but it's not really accurate for saying how good a server is to play on
13:21 IhrFussel max_lag can only be constantly low with mods+many players on extremely powerful servers really
13:22 IhrFussel I already pay $25 monthly for my dedi ... and it would be wrong if another person who plays $100 or more gets a better ranking cause they paid more money
13:22 IhrFussel pays*
13:23 Shara Yes
13:24 IhrFussel I already find it stupid that the amount of lag decides whether or not players can glitch through nodes on the map but nobody cared
13:24 paramat so IhrFussel thinking on this i agree with you in a way. if players understood how max_lag works there wouldn't be much of an issue, but they mostly won't and are likely to see the icon as a playability indicator
13:24 Xio joined #minetest-hub
13:25 Shara I agree with the PR in that ping is currently not a good indicator (why can't we do what Fixer suggested to fix this?)
13:25 Shara But using max_lag like this instead is bad
13:25 IhrFussel paramat, yes °I agree there...we can keep the max_lag but we really need another indictaor for playability then
13:25 Shara And unfairly favours servers that do not need to run the usual mods due to non-standard gameplay
13:25 IhrFussel indicator*
13:27 IhrFussel nerzhul's test server mostly has a max_lag of < 0.1 BUT only cause there is maybe 1 or 2 players + minetest_game only
13:31 paramat anyway please comment in that PR, your concerns don't need a separate issue
13:32 nerzhul IhrFussel, yeah stresstest is needed :p
13:32 nerzhul but after fixing Fixer problem and your black screen problem
13:33 Fixer IhrFussel: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6508
13:34 IhrFussel paramat, my suggestion to add a second lag value to /status will be its own issue
13:34 nerzhul does someone cancel builds on travis ?
13:38 rubenwardy server max_lag is a good indicator on how under load a server is
13:38 rubenwardy however
13:38 rubenwardy different types of servers require different step sizes
13:39 rubenwardy CTF would be awful with > 0.05
13:39 rubenwardy but creatives would probably be ok up to 0.3 or so
13:39 Shara rubenwardy: problem is max_lag peaks, then stays up
13:39 Fixer rubenwardy: problem is you don't know CURRENT LAG
13:39 Fixer we want to know LAG NOW
13:39 Shara You realise you've been playing on RC and it's never that low?
13:39 Fixer Not some weird 0.997 avg
13:40 Shara Yet if RC was less than okay, you or many others would be complaining.
13:41 rubenwardy what was RC usually?
13:41 Shara I can be 2+
13:41 Shara It*
13:41 Shara Especially when busy
13:41 Shara The thing is, it's not constantly 2+, but that's what max lag will make it look like
13:42 Shara If servers are to be ranked on lag, it should be a much more up to date value
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13:42 IhrFussel WAIT WAIT WAIT.... it says "lag": 0.20199376344680786, in the server list for my server, so it CANNOT be the max_lag value
13:43 sniper570 joined #minetest-hub
13:43 rubenwardy servers should be penalised if they regularly go above 1s (eg: minutely), but not if they went above a second 15 minutes ago
13:43 Shara (Fussel, thsi is why I asked clarification on meaning earlier, but no one has said my assumption is wrong)
13:43 rubenwardy IhrFussel, *1000
13:43 rubenwardy !math calc 0.201*1000
13:43 ShadowBot rubenwardy: 201
13:44 IhrFussel 201 ms but max_lag right now above 1.5
13:44 rubenwardy huh
13:44 Krock https://github.com/minetest/minete​st/blob/master/src/server.cpp#L559
13:44 Krock because lag != max_lag
13:45 IhrFussel You simply take the current server step time and send it to the server
13:45 rubenwardy yeah, I meant m_lag
13:45 Krock the lag reported to the server list is an actual average lag value of 100 measures
13:45 IhrFussel list
13:45 rubenwardy 100 measures, so a bit less than 100 ticks to stablise?
13:45 IhrFussel Then it's so high cause I set my server_step to be 0.2 instead of 0.1
13:46 sfan5 rubenwardy: it would be easier to fix the max_lag calculation not to include lagspikes so heavily
13:46 IhrFussel So you penalize servers that don't need such a high update frequency
13:47 IhrFussel 0.1 is too much for my machine but 0.2 is still very playable... so do you want to FORCE server owners to set server_step to 0.1?
13:47 rubenwardy all servers which use chests and doors need < 0.5 step, as that's how long you'd need to wait for something to happen due to no client side prediction
13:48 rubenwardy and 0.2 is fine for a creative server
13:49 IhrFussel It should also be fine for a non-pvp-focused survival server
13:50 rubenwardy if they don't have mobs then yes, they're basically equivilent to a creative server but with hunger/health
13:50 IhrFussel Where's the difference in crafting/mining/building/chatting between 0.1 vs 0.2?
13:51 IhrFussel I'd say even with mobs (like mine) it's okay... you don't need realtime action to fight those simple mobs this is not WOW
13:51 rubenwardy I disagree, entity movement is annoying > 0.12 or so
13:52 IhrFussel We are talking about "playability" and 0.2 steps make a server with mobs still playable
13:53 IhrFussel Either that or myself and all my active players have an extremely low requirement for playability
13:55 IhrFussel Well but since we actually know now what the "lag" value in the server list really means (an actual average over time) I'm less against merging the PR
13:56 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/6504#issuecomment-334936784
13:57 IhrFussel The only problem is that some servers set a different server_step value and if the PR can take that into account
13:58 rubenwardy that shouldn't matter really. The quality of multiplayer is linked to the step size and the variation of step size
13:58 rubenwardy although actually
13:58 rubenwardy as said different subgames require different step sizes
13:59 paramat Shara and server owners please can you express your need for an option in https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6490 so that it doesn't look like just me requesting it?
13:59 IhrFussel I'd be fine with those values...my server would be yellow then and maybe I'd decide to switch to 0.15 steps to make it green
14:00 IhrFussel green-yellow*
14:00 rubenwardy 0.201 would be green-yellow too
14:03 rubenwardy the point of this should be to highlight servers which don't have lag spikes and have a consistent low server step
14:03 rubenwardy so 0.2 is way too low as a value
14:04 rubenwardy I might get rid of green-yellow in my table, and combine it with green
14:04 Shara I think things you have in green-yellow should be green
14:05 rubenwardy done
14:05 IhrFussel rubenwardy, the values the server list reports are actually pretty close to the ones my own avg_lag reports too (between 0.20 - 0.30 depending on load)
14:05 IhrFussel mod*
14:06 Shara I'm wondering if it's just that sofar has said max_lag instead of m_lag but... I don't know
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14:12 Fixer PROMISE ME THE LIGHT
14:15 * rubenwardy checks out sauth
14:15 nerzhul Fixer, are you around ?
14:15 IhrFussel Not sure but m_ in c++ usually just indicates that it's a member var or something like that
14:15 Fixer nerzhul: yes
14:16 nerzhul i need you to help me
14:16 rubenwardy shivajiva: why haven't you released sban/sauth to the server? They're very useful
14:16 nerzhul to understand your bug
14:16 rubenwardy should I be using them on a production server? :D
14:16 Shara They can be used
14:17 Shara I'll probably switch to sauth soon given what happened today
14:17 rubenwardy also, "It's not required for multiplayer games" -> don't you mean singleplayer?
14:18 nerzhul IhrFussel, Fixer : i push force my branch, i reduced the commit number
14:19 nerzhul i rebase it too
14:22 Fixer nerzhul: so how can I help you?
14:22 nerzhul i'm thinking :p
14:23 nerzhul the first thing i want to understand is why you are disconnected
14:23 nerzhul can you capture some packets on your machine ?
14:24 shivajiva ruben you are correct it's not clear I'm referring to the auth,txt, released to server? You mean minetest mods I guess, wanted a bit more ground testing and feedback
14:25 nerzhul i'm interested to have a network capture (with wireshark for example as you are on windows)
14:25 nerzhul Fixer, you have the same problem on my server right ?
14:25 Fixer nerzhul: kinda same
14:25 rubenwardy *to the forums
14:25 nerzhul Fixer, nice it's easier then
14:26 shivajiva ah, yea I should
14:26 nerzhul Fixer, can you connect on my server one time now i need to gather your ip and kill the client ?
14:26 Fixer kill the client?
14:26 shivajiva seems like they should be fused together though?
14:26 Fixer it crashes anyway
14:27 nerzhul yeah maybe :p
14:27 nerzhul i just need you to connect once first to gather your IP, can you ?
14:27 nerzhul (with the latest code)
14:27 Fixer nerzhul: done
14:28 Fixer nerzhul: tried to connect
14:28 nerzhul i see
14:28 nerzhul let me a second
14:28 nerzhul ok try it another time with freshly started client
14:29 nerzhul and tell me when it's done
14:29 Fixer nerzhul: done
14:29 nerzhul ty
14:29 nerzhul i have the capture i can analyse
14:34 nerzhul Fixer, wow
14:35 nerzhul bad checksum on your TCP packets
14:39 nerzhul sorry on server TCP packet
14:39 nerzhul very strange
14:41 Fixer kekek
14:48 IhrFussel paramat, commented but looks like we are in the minority (I'm neutral too by the way but all for fairness)
14:49 IhrFussel I mean neutral as in "it doesn't affect me"
14:50 * Shara changes server step on RC to 0.1 again just to see what happens
14:51 nerzhul Fixer, can you do another test i missed some packet data in the capture
14:51 paramat Shara Megaf benrob0329 rubenwardy i tried arguing for an option in https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6490 'Correct smooth lighting at covered corners' but have had enough now, it's up to others now to argue for it, i'm neutral. it looks very likely an option will not be added
14:51 Fixer yes
14:51 nerzhul Shara, you will just increase CPU usage
14:51 Fixer nerzhul: ready?
14:51 nerzhul yes
14:51 nerzhul look at appletree for a good step :p
14:51 nerzhul 0.025
14:52 Fixer done
14:52 Shara paramat: so more is broken for players again
14:52 rubenwardy CTF is consistently at 0.05, the dedicated_server_step. Might try halving it again
14:52 Shara nerzhul: I will also report lower in lag, which is now possibly quite important
14:52 nerzhul it's not real
14:53 Shara I know my server does not need this, but if the public list PR is accepted...
14:53 nerzhul lag depend on server step loop, if you have many long action you will just increase it if they doesn't depend on timers
14:53 Shara Well, I have cpu to spare
14:53 Shara RC used to report 100 or 99 lag way back... I changed server step and it reported 148
14:53 Shara Yet gameplay was actually better
14:54 Shara Now if you're adding indicators of how good a server is based on this value...
14:54 Shara I need value to be lower
14:54 IhrFussel Shara, cause 0.2 steps means automatically "0.2 sec lag per step"
14:54 Shara RC now reports 100 lag instead of 148
14:55 nerzhul Fixer, can you do another test ? i'm ready
14:55 Fixer yes
14:55 IhrFussel Yes the value the server list reports is HIGHLY dependend on the server_step setting which is why that's not fair still
14:55 Fixer done
14:55 Shara Totally not fair. :)
14:57 nerzhul Fixer, it seems each time server disconnects you when pushing meshes
14:59 rubenwardy lol
14:59 rubenwardy remote media is massively triggering rate limiting on my server
15:00 nerzhul Fixer, another test ? i added a crash on the disconnection to have the backtrace :p
15:00 Fixer done
15:01 nerzhul okay you are disconnected due to packet sending error
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15:02 IhrFussel Shara, if the server_step is set to 0.2 and the previous step took <= 0.2 secs then it would usually mean ZERO lag
15:04 Shara When my server was on the default, it reported 100 lag. I switched to .015 (it improved some problems I had back then) and it reported 148 lag. These values were pretty consistent in most cases
15:04 Shara Now it's back to default and again reports 100
15:05 IhrFussel Yes but if the step didn't take longer than the set value in minetest.conf then I don't consider it to be "lag"
15:05 Shara But I think I won't leave it here, as for some reason CPU use goes up disproportionately for me
15:05 IhrFussel Cause it "ticked" at the correct speed
15:05 Shara Well, neither do I, but I am not the one in charge of the server list :)
15:06 IhrFussel The lag calculation should be PER SERVER and take the server_step setting into account
15:06 IhrFussel And not just assume all servers run at 0.1 steps
15:07 Shara Well, there should also probably be somethign to check server_step isn't some ridiculous value
15:07 Shara Since that alone could make a server quite unplayable
15:08 IhrFussel Yes that too... but 0.2 steps is playable, no question
15:08 nerzhul Fixer, can you do another test and update your git tree, i added more logs on the disconnection
15:09 Fixer nerzhul: you want test now, or after git tree update?
15:10 IhrFussel I had my server on 0.4 for some time in the past and the only thing I noticed lagging horribly were the player model updates since I use playeranim
15:10 nerzhul yeah compile the new version and connect
15:10 nerzhul i should have interesting logs telling me why there are a sending error
15:12 Fixer okay
15:14 IhrFussel Sometimes I just think core devs are focused too much on singleplayer and they have little understanding about how long-term servers perform/what they need
15:15 nerzhul IhrFussel, it depend on who, every coredev has his own roadmap
15:15 nerzhul for me the light bug should be fixed, it's just definitively a bug, i understand players are using workaround, but they can fix it
15:15 nerzhul IhrFussel, you seems to have an example usecase, show us :)
15:16 IhrFussel nerzhul, it's not just that...for example (most) core devs thinking that a max_lag on servers of 2-3 is "critical" just shows me they rarely play on servers it seems
15:17 IhrFussel I'm talking about things that you simply can't experience in singleplaayer...you have to connect regularly to servers to understand them
15:17 nerzhul it's critical to have the more accurate value to reflect to users, but it doesn't block mt work
15:19 IhrFussel Yes but there were many more things the majority of server owners disliked but still was merged
15:19 IhrFussel Because (most) core devs cannot think like server owners
15:20 IhrFussel They have other priorities
15:21 nerzhul it's not always easy to make good decisions, the lag decision should not be based on the idea that bad laggy server are currently green in serverlist whereas they are unplayable
15:21 nerzhul Fixer, do you recompile the whole project each time ? :p
15:21 paramat '(most) core devs thinking that a max_lag on servers of 2-3 is "critical"' not 'most', and it depends how often that kind of extreme lag happens
15:21 Fixer yes, i will modify the script later
15:22 paramat i think your players do have a low standard because you admit you have many long lags
15:22 IhrFussel nerzhul, do you consider a 0.2 timeframe to be "lag"? I'm pretty sure 99% of players can't even tell the difference in gameplay in most situations
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15:22 nerzhul 200 ms is laggy, yellow lag
15:23 nerzhul to show you a concret example, in World of warcraft lag is yellow after 100ms and red after 500ms
15:23 IhrFussel But if the server_step is set to 0.2 it would mean internally there is *no* lag
15:23 paramat core devs actually have server's and player's needs as a high priority, higher than you think, but sometimes get it wrong of course
15:24 IhrFussel Why would the intended tick rate be "lag" is what I wonder
15:24 Fixer in my experience, for online fps play you need at least 50 ms, 100ms - starts to suck, 150ms - sucks/unplayable
15:25 paramat but WOW probably doesn't have as much variability as MT with lua mods running, so we have to be more lenient
15:26 paramat server step should be included i think, as that adds to the experienced lag, otherwise a server could set server step to 1s and still get a green rating
15:26 Shara Fixer: yea, but that's FPS servers.
15:26 nerzhul Fixer, erf i got a crash in my logs, i will play with my wife some minutes, will fix it later
15:26 Shara Why should a creative be marked less than green for not meeting FPS standards?
15:27 Fixer minetest is first person sh...something
15:27 paramat yeah
15:27 paramat (yeah to Shara's comment)
15:27 Shara A CTF server needs to meet that standard, yes.
15:27 Fixer nerzhul: compile done
15:27 Shara My creative doesn't.
15:28 Shara Light survival servers without a massive focus on mobs wouldn't need it either.
15:29 IhrFussel My survival server that's not focused on PvP works too and nobody complains...so why should I need to reduce the step time to 0.1 if 0.2 works? And I still get a penalty for it?
15:29 Shara I never had issues on your server Fussel (unless your moderators were playing "let's WE crazy large areas at once")
15:30 Shara And that was only really bad the one time. :)
15:30 IhrFussel Just make the server send their server_step time to the list and take it into calculation... you could make it so >= 0.3 steps is ignored for example
15:31 Shara I'm going to leave RC on 0.1 fo r awhile anyway, just to see how it holds up
15:31 rubenwardy woo! remote media now works with Nginx
15:31 IhrFussel You honestly created this issue yourself core devs... I mean you added the option to adjust the server_step and now you say "if you set it higher you will have a disadvantage"
15:32 rubenwardy https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy​/ab93c2ec5947d36af2e8c4c5e4e5f03f
15:33 sfan5 why would you do rate limiting?
15:33 rubenwardy to stop abuse
15:33 Shara Can't avoid things getting implemented seperately and then adding up to make a problem somewhere. So no blame on the devs there. It's just about whether it gets taken into consideration or that PR is merged as is.
15:33 rubenwardy although they're lots of small files, tbf
15:33 IhrFussel Why even implement that option then in the first place? If the option wouldn't have existed I would've WATCHED the server performance more as I added new mods...but since I though nobody will complain about 0.2 that's what I based everything on
15:34 rubenwardy :/
15:34 rubenwardy because different servers can get away with different step sizes, so it doesn't make sense to have no option
15:35 IhrFussel But it makes sense to penalize those different servers?
15:35 paramat IhrFussel your serverstep counts because it adds to experienced lag, as i just wrote above
15:36 IhrFussel Let's be real guys there is no huge difference between 0.1 and 0.2 steps in server gameplay
15:36 Shara paramat: just how to balance it? On one hand, reducing server step on a server where being able to shot at players matters would in itself be an issue, but on a creative... There's no negative impact here
15:37 IhrFussel Some players might even live so far away that their network lag exceeds the server step time that's why I find a server_step of 0.1 not that important
15:38 Shara Should the server list be strict, in that it measures based on what the highest requirements for a good server might be (CTF for example), or more relaxed, where it measures based on a server with lower requirements? (probably creative)
15:38 Shara ?
15:38 IhrFussel In fact it means basically I make it a lot more fair to players with slow ping
15:42 paramat Shara true, but these are small changes in server step: 0.1 vs 0.2, i don't agree with marking those using 0.2 as 'less playable', i'm arguing for more leniency
15:42 IhrFussel Shara, such a strict rule would basically "disallow" mixed servers... like my server is PvP enabled (according to the server list) but in reality it's completely optional-per-player and doesn't rely on realtime actions
15:43 paramat .. so more relaxed
15:43 Shara IhrFussel: it would not disallow anything, but it would lower the rating of any server, regardless of type, not meeting that strict standard
15:43 Shara But I'd support what paramat just said
15:43 IhrFussel Yes my server is survival but relaxing survival...I'd call it "social survival"
15:44 Shara paramat: thing is, it's not just about server step, but the impact it has on reported lag
15:44 Shara IhrFussel: Well, you know I was running round there killing things with no armour, so yes, I'd say very relaxed :)
15:44 paramat anyway i have asked we reconsider what value should be used and at what values each colour is shown
15:47 paramat lag spies tend to be high, 3+s, so the server step being 0.1 or 0.2 makes little difference to that
15:47 IhrFussel I said I'd be fine with "yellow-green" when step is set to 0.2 but such a measurement would depend a lot on that setting
15:47 paramat hehe *spikes
15:47 nerzhul Fixer, i pushed the logging fix
15:47 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
15:47 paramat a server with 0.2 step should be able to get green certainly
15:48 paramat which is why i disagree with sofar's initial PR
15:50 Shara Hmm
15:50 Shara From the PR: "All english spoken servers are likely focussed more on US player base"
15:50 Shara Total nonsense
15:50 IhrFussel I can only tell that my avg lag mod mostly reports 0.2-0.21 if there is no max_lag higher than 0.5 secs ... when more players connect it can go up to 0.22 - 0.25 which tells me there have been a few little spikes and sometimes it reaches 0.3 which is critical so such an indication makes sense
15:51 Shara Most servers I spent any time on had english speaking players for all parts of the world
15:51 Shara Though I do still agree ping isn't a great measure either way
15:52 IhrFussel About the ping...not sure if it would be good to ping the server directly (c++ code abuse possible)
15:53 rubenwardy it's bad for privacy
15:53 rubenwardy if we need ping, it would be better to host serverlist-style servers around the world, and have them ping each server. Players then connect to the closest one based on IP
15:54 IhrFussel People then could also re-code their client to bomb a server with ping requests
15:54 rubenwardy or maybe just have them report the ping to the serverlist, and the serverlist serve    ping = { uk = 0.2, us = 0.4 }   etc
15:54 rubenwardy they could do that already
15:55 rubenwardy there's even a very easy python script for it
15:55 IhrFussel I mean they already can but if the "ping directly to server" code is implemented they likely just need to adjust the interval anymore
15:56 Krock rubenwardy, people from asia or australia won't be happy
15:56 Krock "that number is unreliable for us"
15:57 rubenwardy then have asian and australian servers, and show nothing if there is no near ping server. This is a lot of infrastructure though, so I'd say it's not worth it
15:57 Krock and minetest isn't known enough to have such a big network
15:57 IhrFussel How do other big games do it? They probably have not only one server list server worldwide
15:58 Krock ping each server client-sided
16:00 IhrFussel Oh yeah...since most games aren't open source the code is safe and can't be abused
16:00 rubenwardy that's not the problem
16:00 rubenwardy the problem is privacy
16:01 rubenwardy it's already trivial for someone to ping a server
16:01 IhrFussel Why privacy? What else does it tell other than the time it took?
16:01 rubenwardy especially for the sort of people who want to abuse networking
16:01 rubenwardy every single person that opens up Minetest would have their IPs given to all servers
16:02 IhrFussel And the big game companies don't care?
16:02 rubenwardy yeah
16:02 shivajiva first one - https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=9&amp;t=18603
16:02 rubenwardy wooow
16:03 rubenwardy oop
16:03 rubenwardy +s
16:03 IhrFussel And connected to a server the client already pings the server directly right?
16:03 rubenwardy *woooo
16:03 rubenwardy I should probably wait until I need to ban someone before making a comment
16:03 shivajiva impressive post count huh
16:04 Fixer nerzhul: failed to connect to your server
16:04 shivajiva yea, good idea ruben :)
16:04 rubenwardy also, pinging every server would be sllooow
16:04 nerzhul Fixer, i forgot to start it :) it's done
16:04 Fixer lol
16:04 Shara I've ban lot sof people with sban so far. Works fine :)
16:05 Fixer nerzhul: "connection lost"
16:05 Shara Regular and temp bans both tested
16:06 shivajiva better the client gives the ping and a distance would be awesome for actually reporting something meaningful
16:07 IhrFussel Wouldn't that require a geoip lookup?
16:07 Calinou clients should just ping servers directly, but it's just me :P
16:07 jas_ IhrFussel: ping me
16:07 Calinou it works like this in every other game
16:07 jas_ tell me how many ms
16:07 jas_ there's your number
16:07 Calinou that would require a lot of refactoring, though
16:08 Calinou the server list formspec would also need to be able to update asynchronously
16:08 IhrFussel 0.174 from Germany
16:08 jas_ well, in certain older fps, you had to hit the refresh button (or hit space hehe)
16:08 shivajiva Calinou is correct
16:08 jas_ greetings from maine
16:09 IhrFussel But to get the location and calculate the distance requires geoip I think
16:09 Calinou jas_: it has to be done asynchronously, so that you don't need to wait for all servers to be pinged to see the list
16:09 Calinou else, it'll take much more time than needed
16:09 Calinou Cube/Cube 2 games do it right
16:09 Calinou in fact, all server information is gathered from the server directly, IIRC
16:09 Calinou not from the master server (it only has a list of IPs)
16:10 jas_ well if you're going to do it, you may as well do it right
16:11 IhrFussel jas_, trying to remember where maine is in the world xP
16:12 jas_ it's the head of the cow
16:12 jas_ oh wait.  nevermind that.  it's eastern us
16:12 shivajiva http://www.ip2location.com/tutorials/f​ind-distance-between-2-ips-using-bash
16:15 IhrFussel Ah so USA ... quite a large ping
16:15 IhrFussel But the largest would be from Japan I guess
16:27 jas_ nerzhul: did you fix it?
16:28 jas_ you wanna try me hosting and you connecting?
16:30 Natechip joined #minetest-hub
16:30 Natechip joined #minetest-hub
16:33 nerzhul jas_, no thanks :p
16:35 jas_ ok i'm putting it on dcbl.duckdns.org:30002 anyway
16:37 Krock can you become a git master by git checkout master?
16:37 jas_ i think that's right
16:39 Calinou git checkout username
16:39 Calinou "username checks out", as Reddit says
16:46 CalebDavis joined #minetest-hub
16:57 nerzhul Fixer, can you test another time please ? :)
16:57 nerzhul i really want to handle this crash properly :p
16:57 nerzhul this log*
17:00 Hijiri well, #5612 and #5819 are waiting for one approval if someone wants to eliminate them
17:00 Krock https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5612 - Allow overriding tool capabilities through itemstack metadata
17:01 Krock https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5819 - Fix default item callbacks to work with nil users
17:01 Hijiri bot broken today?
17:01 * Krock is a slow bot
17:01 Krock Hijiri, merely wrong channel
17:01 Hijiri oh
17:01 nerzhul bot doesn't answer on -hub it's not the dev chan
17:02 nerzhul jas_, can you connect to my server ? if you have same problem as Fixer it's nice for me
17:02 Hijiri yeah, I meant to post in #minetest-dev since paramat was talking about rising issue counts
17:02 Hijiri but if it's here it will probably be seen anywa
17:02 nerzhul just have an up-to-date tree
17:19 shivajiva second one - https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=9&amp;t=18604
17:22 Fixer nerzhul: i'm back
17:23 nerzhul Fixer, nice, test when you want
17:23 Fixer nerzhul: will test now
17:23 ThomasMonroe hey Fixer what was that fix for the item frame problem in mesecons?
17:23 Fixer nerzhul: done
17:24 rubenwardy bot should probably answer in this channel, as it's supposed to be a dev-server-community channel or w/e
17:24 Fixer ThomasMonroe: no idea..
17:24 ThomasMonroe how do you make it not pushable?
17:24 ThomasMonroe wait, maybe i can copy some code somewhere....
17:28 nerzhul Fixer, connection reset by peer is the error
17:28 nerzhul Fixer, can that be due to a firewall/antivirus ?
17:29 jas_ 2017-10-07 13:29:09: ERROR[ClientConnectionThread]: Failed to read packet headerfrom 62.4.22.5:30001, disconnecting user. Error: End of file
17:30 jas_ connection lost
17:30 nerzhul yeah we now have logs in both sides
17:30 nerzhul 2017-10-07 19:29:08: ERROR[ServerConnectionThread]: Failed to send packet to 172.101.13.131:33970, disconnecting user. Error: Can't assign requested address
17:30 nerzhul here is yours jas_
17:30 nerzhul Can't assign requested address, very strange
17:30 jas_ weird i don't even see your attempt
17:31 jas_ welp, gn o/
17:31 ThomasMonroe Fixer, i found it, i just add: mesecon.register_mvps_stopper("itemframes:frames")
17:36 sofar I see the flamewar has started
17:36 sofar we can just remove the ping and not put anything back
17:36 sofar and it would be an improvement
17:39 Shara That I'd agree with
17:40 nerzhul Fixer, i added more accurate logs, can you test ? also when the test finish i think you can have some interesting client error logs
17:40 Shara Though it would be nice if there was something genuinely better
17:40 Fixer nerzhul: connect to your server?
17:40 sofar max_lag is actually a really good indicator
17:40 Fixer nerzhul: do i need recompile?
17:40 sofar why shouldn't lag spikes like WE matter?
17:40 sofar they do affect gameplay
17:41 Shara That's not why I disagree with it.
17:41 sofar still reading the thread, lol
17:41 nerzhul Fixer, it can be better as the logs are also cleint side
17:42 Shara Hmm, I guess 0.1 server step is fine on RC anyway. CPU isn't maxing out with 20 players.
17:42 Fixer recompiling
17:43 nerzhul Shara, just use default, 0.09
17:43 sofar many servers are at 0.05 btw
17:44 sofar I'm going to collect a shit ton of data and make some actual statistical meaningful statements
17:44 Shara Performance for players was already totally acceptabe at .15
17:44 sofar might take me 2 days
17:44 sofar btw I have no issues with adjusting the scale or even the colors
17:45 Shara sofar: in fairness, I'll probably be fine with it if you relax it
17:45 sofar yeah
17:45 Shara I would really prefer a better measure in general though
17:45 sofar but like i said, there's only about 15 or so servers that are not "green" with this range
17:45 Krock joined #minetest-hub
17:45 Shara The thing is, some kinds of server don't need to be as fast as others
17:46 sofar which is fine, players can decide for themselves
17:46 Shara sofar: yea, but guessing one of mine is included, and that's a bit annoying, everything considered
17:46 sofar that's the thing, now that the icon actually means something, players can make up their minds better
17:46 sofar with the ping icon, that was impossible
17:47 Shara sofar: maybe you can help me understand this better.
17:47 Shara If a server reports around 5.8 max_lag every time I actually check it, yet is showing arround 220 on the server list.. which value are you looking at?
17:49 sofar It's just using the value that servers send and have been sending, so I gotta trace down in code first what that value actually is (doing so, now)
17:51 Shara RC is reporting max_lag=0.621458, with 21 players, and 100 for lag on the list, which feels fine
17:51 Shara But then DL reports max_lag=5.62744 and shows 224 on the list
17:51 Shara So I don't really understand the relationship between the two lag values
17:51 sofar src/server.cpp: m_lag
17:52 * Shara reads
17:53 nerzhul Fixer, tell me when you tested
18:02 Fixer i'm back again
18:03 Fixer nerzhul: done
18:04 nerzhul Fixer, do you have a firewall enabled or an antivirus ?
18:04 nerzhul for me you closed connection
18:04 nerzhul is there any MT interesting error logs on your side ?
18:06 nerzhul Fixer, ^
18:07 Fixer nerzhul: those https://pastebin.com/raw/7B92tSp9 (warning i did some translations, could be wrong)
18:07 Fixer nerzhul: i have firewall but minetest is enabled in it
18:07 nerzhul nice Fixer it's the problem
18:07 nerzhul the UDP sending failure make your client disconnect
18:08 nerzhul Fixer, i know what is the problem, i provide a patch in 5 minutes
18:09 Fixer ok
18:13 nerzhul Fixer, i pushed the fix, it's pure client side, you ar e free to test it asazp
18:14 paramat joined #minetest-hub
18:14 Fixer ok
18:20 sofar https://i.imgur.com/45iGmTe.png <- different m_lag visual
18:20 sofar looks better, not as harsh if you ask me
18:20 Shara sofar: Seriously, why is RC not green?
18:20 sofar lemme check data for it
18:21 Shara It's reporting 99 on the server list right now
18:21 Shara max_lag=0.684356
18:21 Shara There is no way a creative server needs more than this
18:21 sofar 0.68 o_O
18:21 sofar that's... terrible?
18:21 Shara No, not at all
18:22 rubenwardy m_lag, remember
18:22 rubenwardy 0.6s would be terrible
18:22 Shara That's a very low max_lag for  aserver with 20+ players
18:22 Shara Yup
18:22 sofar let me show you what the values are on all the servers
18:22 rubenwardy red cat is currently at 0.99
18:22 rubenwardy m_lag
18:22 Shara I know Dark lands has issues currently, but I have no clue what in the world to do to fix them
18:23 rubenwardy no
18:23 rubenwardy 0.099
18:23 Shara But if RC is not green, your valkues are wrong
18:23 Shara values*
18:23 sofar https://gist.github.com/sofar/c​0a2f83368fccc52aee7b2add031b79f
18:23 sofar these are all current lag values, sorted
18:23 sofar notice that only the bottom 10 will be labelled red
18:24 sofar 9 will be orange, then
18:24 Shara That doesn't matter
18:24 Shara RC should be green.
18:24 sofar look
18:24 sofar stop that
18:24 sofar "my server should be green" is entirely irrelevant
18:25 sofar please, at least say "m_lag value xxx should be yyy"
18:25 Shara Any server that is perfectly playable should be green
18:25 sofar tantrum
18:25 Shara I use RC as an example because it happens to be the server I monitor most closely.
18:25 sofar we don't have that data
18:25 sofar we have a perfectly usable indicator for server responsiveness
18:25 rubenwardy except her server is 100, so should be in the green under your own algorithm. Probably an old screenshot
18:25 Shara Not a tantrum at all.
18:25 sofar I can fetch rc's data, it will take some grepping
18:26 Shara RC has, righ tnow, 21 players, is #1 in the public list, and displays 99 for lag on the public list
18:26 sofar I don't know what "99 lag" means
18:26 sofar 99 seconds?
18:26 Shara That tells me it performs quite well under all circumstances
18:27 Shara Very few servers show lower than 99
18:27 rubenwardy sofar, / 1000
18:27 rubenwardy so 0.099
18:27 sofar lets find the value in the data, like real scientists?
18:27 Shara Your reds seem to be thos ethat show as 200+ on the server list
18:27 sofar 0.205+, yes
18:27 Shara Red to me would sifnify unplayable, which also might be a bit harsh at thos evalues
18:27 Shara signify*
18:28 sofar I was already stating that we can adjust the scale
18:29 rubenwardy Shara, red cat is green for me with that PR
18:30 rubenwardy the screenshot is out of date
18:30 Shara Anyway, you'll note I reported all the values and didn't just winge about my server being too low with no factual data, so I'd appreciate you drop the accusations of tantrums.
18:30 sofar "lag": 0.09997858107089996
18:30 Shara rubenwardy: thanks. Good to know.
18:30 rubenwardy ha!
18:30 sofar it's green now
18:30 rubenwardy the server list appears to search case sensitively
18:30 sofar it was 100% red when I took the screenshot
18:31 Shara But unless there is somethign wrong with the values currently displaying on the server list, I think anything not too far above 100 should be green
18:31 Shara What's 100% red?
18:31 rubenwardy nevermind
18:31 sofar over .205s
18:31 sofar green is under .105s
18:31 sofar about 85% is green atm
18:32 Shara RC above that would be... odd. But not too important.
18:32 sofar I've been watching my own server, and it hobbles up and down much more than i previously expected
18:32 Shara 99 would be norm for the default server step, from what I understand
18:33 sofar there's only 10 servers with a server step < 0.1
18:33 sofar wait
18:33 sofar there's only 10 servers with a server step < 0.09
18:33 Shara But there can be fluxuation.
18:33 Shara RC had .15 until today, but I might change it back.
18:33 sofar there's 5 servers with a 0.9 server step
18:33 IhrFussel sofar, I refuse to have my server labeled as "unplayable" when the avg lag is a bit over 0.20 cmon now
18:33 Shara It's a creative, so it didn't need more
18:34 sofar IhrFussel: then you really hate the current ping graphs
18:34 IhrFussel Do you even know what unplayable means?
18:34 sofar because they label any non-EU server as unplayable
18:34 Shara sofar: we're not arguing in favour of keeping ping as a rating.
18:34 IhrFussel That's another issue the ping doesn't mean as much to players as lag I'd say
18:34 sofar besides, it doesn't mean that "red" equals "unplayable"
18:34 sofar that's your interpretation
18:35 Shara People will read it that way.
18:35 IhrFussel Red for < 0.3s is wrong no matter how you see it... 0.3s means there were a few larger spikes but not constantly high lag
18:35 sofar do I have to repeat myself again?
18:35 sofar <sofar> I was already stating that we can adjust the scale
18:35 Fixer nerzhul: "connection lost"
18:35 sofar I just want people to look at the actual data first
18:35 Shara You sometimes see servers on the public list showing 500+Those would be red I think.
18:36 sofar https://gist.github.com/sofar/c​0a2f83368fccc52aee7b2add031b79f
18:36 sofar where should the cutoff be?
18:36 sofar 0.5sec? -> only 1 server goes over, so entirely meaningless to even use red
18:36 Shara No, not meaningless
18:36 sofar well, 2
18:36 Fixer i can see that majority is under 0.11
18:37 sofar 0.25sec for red? 5 servers
18:37 Shara But red should be reserved for somethign really poor
18:37 sofar sure, fair enough
18:37 Shara To me, red is like a warning to keep out
18:37 sofar mind you, there's 200 servers, so 1% red?
18:37 IhrFussel I'd make everything < 0.3 at least yellow
18:37 Shara How many of them in active use?
18:37 sofar is 1% acceptable to label as "red"?
18:38 sofar that's 2 servers
18:38 Shara I don't thinkw e should think about it like that
18:38 sofar sure, active, that's a good point
18:38 Hijiri "lag" is how long it takes to process a server step right?
18:38 Shara We should think about it in terms of what's actually playable
18:38 Hijiri or some statistic of it
18:38 IhrFussel Hijiri, yes and the avg is all step times combines devided by the amount (the server list divides it by 100 I think)
18:39 Shara If you have a server flagged as red which is highly active and players don't have an issue... it makes me think it shouldn't be red, but orange or yellow, but probably need to actually look at player activity on servers getting these values
18:39 IhrFussel divided*
18:39 sofar so, data wise, there's 2-3 busy servers with 0.2s+ values
18:40 sofar I wouln't think that labelling them as yellow is unreasonable, or even orange
18:40 sofar one has 0.5 with 3 clients
18:40 Shara yellow to orange, yes, but not red perhaps
18:40 Shara Hmmm
18:40 Shara A thought:
18:40 Shara probably not a great one but...
18:40 Shara Can we take numbe rof players into consideration somehow?
18:40 sofar a 0.3s with 3 clients...
18:40 Shara Yea... 0.3 with 3.. ekk.
18:41 Shara But 0.3 with 15 or 20+...
18:41 Shara It's different
18:41 sofar seems around .25 is a reasonable cutoff for reds, if you ask me
18:41 nerzhul Fixer, client logs ?
18:41 Fixer nerzhul: same error
18:41 Shara I'd be more toward .3 myself I think
18:41 rubenwardy the thing is red is seen as quite bad
18:41 Shara Or higher
18:42 rubenwardy like, game breaking lag
18:42 Shara Yea...
18:42 rubenwardy technically playable but with much latency
18:42 sofar .275 and it's a deal?
18:42 Shara And DL is quite playable
18:42 Shara But it's fluxuation upwards into that.
18:42 Shara fluxuating*
18:42 nerzhul on which commit are you ?
18:42 Shara And Fussel's server has been quite playable when I've been there
18:43 IhrFussel My server's average pendles between 0.2 - 0.3 so 0.275 would be fine
18:43 Shara I'm just scared red is going to be seen as unplayable
18:44 sofar can I be honest here?
18:44 sofar people who run a "red" server should be encouraged to get their players a better server
18:44 sofar but if they can't... that's their choice
18:46 IhrFussel Are you telling me I should pay more than $25 monthly ?
18:46 Fixer nerzhul: 60d
18:46 IhrFussel I think 25 dollars is already a lot for a MT server
18:46 sofar sure, I pay a similar amount
18:47 IhrFussel It's actually more expsnsive than my local connection
18:47 sofar I won't even have internet in half a year
18:47 sofar if things don't work out
18:47 rubenwardy Minetest is quite heavy on hard disks with sqlite
18:48 sofar yeah, my server won't have that problem
18:48 rubenwardy does sqlite have a memory cache? I don't think it does
18:48 sofar everything is mmap()d
18:49 IhrFussel MT seems to be completely unpredictable when it comes to load/performance... sometimes even ONE player can cause a lag spike cause they build something big with mesecons, or they load an area with lots of mesecons mechanics
18:49 sofar you can't cache writes .. cuz corruption
18:49 nerzhul lag spike is generally due to : many mods on server loop / emerge many many block
18:49 rubenwardy you can mark the data in memory as dirty, and defer the writ
18:49 rubenwardy *write
18:49 IhrFussel And other times the max_lag on my server is 1.0 with 10+ players
18:50 nerzhul mesecons & pipeworks mechanics should be integrated to core, the pipe engine i mean
18:50 rubenwardy it would be better to run mods on a different thread, and communicate using messages
18:50 nerzhul i tried to understand it at a point but it was clearly impossible to understand (3 years ago)
18:50 rubenwardy but that's a considerable amount of work
18:50 nerzhul rubenwardy, yes, sandbox each mod and use mod channel :p
18:50 nerzhul and threads is a problem not only for mods but for server loop
18:50 IhrFussel I already adjusted pretty much all mods that run in globalstep...I added a if timer >= 1 then check to them so that they only run once per second and not every step
18:51 nerzhul as get_node call map
18:51 nerzhul for example :p
18:51 rubenwardy no, I meant between the mod thread and the main thread
18:51 nerzhul and map is on one thread
18:51 sofar kill all abms
18:51 rubenwardy make it completely abstracted from the mods to stop breakage
18:51 nerzhul asynchronous mods is not possible
18:51 nerzhul get_node is synchronous
18:51 rubenwardy why?
18:52 rubenwardy you can pause the lua environment
18:52 nerzhul you get the current map, you can lock the map, but for each node it's crazy to have a lock on the map
18:52 rubenwardy my point would be to stop lua blocking packet send, and entitiy updating
18:52 nerzhul lua doesn't block packet send
18:52 nerzhul neither with my network rework nor with current code
18:52 Shara sofar: believe me, I want to do something about my survival server. But I don't know why the performance dropped. It's not always a case of being unwilling to do anything or not caring.
18:53 nerzhul NetworkPacket is directly sent to ServerConnectionThread in MT
18:53 nerzhul and it's queued for making other thread consumed
18:53 rubenwardy Both writing to disk and big mods stop stuff being sent tot the clietns
18:54 nerzhul no
18:55 IhrFussel rubenwardy, that I can confirm... if a mod lags the server for a few secs EVERYTHING stops
18:55 nerzhul sending new generated mapblocks yes , because it's asynchronous and if you server step is high you will send mapblocks with less speed
18:55 rubenwardy even if packets are sent asynchronously, you need something to send the packets
18:55 nerzhul yeah, it's not the same problem :)
18:55 rubenwardy it's the problem I meant
18:55 nerzhul it's the MT current problem with being too modular
18:56 nerzhul some hihg consuming generic mechanism should be re-added to core
18:56 nerzhul like mesecons/pipeworks core engine
18:56 rubenwardy MT is hardly modular. We have massive god classes
18:56 nerzhul or mobs api/pathfinder
18:57 IhrFussel Why does the chat also depend on mod lag?
18:57 nerzhul no problem to being modular just inject highly generic interfaces from mods to core sounds reasonable
18:57 nerzhul IhrFussel, because chat send callbacks to lua
18:57 rubenwardy because of chat callbacks, IhrFussel
18:57 rubenwardy lol
18:57 nerzhul mod channels are not affected by lag :p
18:57 nerzhul hmmm they are but it's different, they are less affected :p
18:57 sofar LOL
18:58 nerzhul i already studied the performance paraellisation on MT during my epixel fork phasis, and it's hardly difficult to make server have a new thread
18:58 IhrFussel But when I enable my profiler there are only a few mods that show a high avg runtime... I ignore min/max as those tend to be rare
18:58 rubenwardy not client-to-client, client-to-server still needs a mod to consume and respond. (Just correcting lag to mean server thread congestions)
18:59 nerzhul rubenwardy, client to client is affected too, but i think if mod channels are hardly used it's easy to make them use a dedicated thread, if the network PR is finished and accepted we can forward a network packet to other than server thread
19:00 Hijiri is anyone aware of a worldcraft iOS version?
19:00 Hijiri A user on my server says they are using "Worldcraft(3D)" on an iPhone
19:00 IhrFussel So if I understand it correctly the engine doesn't actually *lag* it's just the c++ -> lua -> c++ callbacks?
19:01 rubenwardy yes, Hijiri
19:01 rubenwardy https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=3&amp;t=16707
19:02 sofar I am *so* happy that not even freemined can't connect to my server
19:03 sofar problem solved :D
19:03 rubenwardy lol, double negative
19:03 IhrFussel Well I won't be able to reduce lag much since many players want to protect areas which causes a 1-2 sec lag when saving/renaming/deleting
19:03 rubenwardy your server is very accepting
19:03 rubenwardy IhrFussel, do you use area store?
19:03 IhrFussel I use the areas mod but the file stores ~ 7,000 areas
19:03 rubenwardy hmmm, that probably wouldn't help creating areas though
19:04 rubenwardy IhrFussel, area store is an engine feature that makes the areas mod faster
19:04 IhrFussel I think areas uses that...one sec
19:04 rubenwardy yes
19:04 rubenwardy but you need to compile minetest with libspatial to get a better implementation
19:04 rubenwardy however it sounds like an IO problem
19:05 rubenwardy maybe shivajiva will be able to work on a sareas ;)
19:06 IhrFussel rubenwardy, the HDD on my dedi peaks at 84 MB/sec ... I don't think that's low
19:07 rubenwardy as said, an IO problem
19:07 shivajiva yea, just closing the global namespace access on sban and sauth to sqlite and then I'll take a look at adding that string to my bow *chuckles*
19:08 Shara Please do :)
19:08 nerzhul iostat 1
19:08 nerzhul iotop
19:08 nerzhul use that
19:09 IhrFussel MT never uses more than 5 MB /sec in iotop
19:09 rubenwardy I used those commands to find out that the player database was the problem ^
19:09 rubenwardy also
19:09 rubenwardy sudo inotifywait -e modify -e attrib -e move -e create -e delete -m  .
19:09 Hijiri rubenwardy: that one is android
19:10 rubenwardy that will show you what files are changing in a folder as it happens
19:10 rubenwardy Hijiri, no there's iOS too
19:10 sofar env_meta gets written every 2 seconds or so
19:10 Hijiri oh
19:10 Hijiri sorry, I didn't read far down enough
19:10 rubenwardy sofar, if it's the save interval then is 5.3 s
19:10 sofar ah
19:10 sofar well that, then :)
19:12 paramat i was thinking .25-0.3 for red
19:12 sofar I put it at .275
19:12 rubenwardy other helpful tools: jnettop, htop
19:13 Shara .275 is probably okay.
19:13 paramat (i mean 0.25-0.3 for the lower limit of red)
19:14 sofar that's what it is
19:14 IhrFussel It will show my server as red when the load peaks but that's fine
19:14 sofar paramat: it's .275 for the lower limit of red
19:15 IhrFussel But servers with server_step at 0.1 still have it easier...just saying
19:16 IhrFussel I will have to test if my machine can handle .15 too maybe I'll switch then
19:16 sofar well I'm glad people are somewhat positive about replacing ping with something else :)
19:16 Shara I never noticed any issues at .15, and it did ease things up a lot.
19:16 IhrFussel And to have the step at <0.1 is not recommended by devs
19:17 Shara So it's probably worth you trying it, Fussel
19:17 sofar right, it'll lower your overall load
19:17 sofar well default server_step is now 0.09s
19:17 Shara I'm testing at .1 for the moment
19:17 IhrFussel Yeah but 0.05 is too much someone said...MT isn't ready for that yet
19:17 paramat IhrFussel but you didn't attend to moretrees ABM growing 10-20 large l-system trees at once each with a separate lighting update, as you found out from your mod profiler it's moretrees that is very intensive
19:17 sofar my server runs at 0.05 but I can affoard it due to the game being aggressively designed to avoid bottlenecks
19:18 IhrFussel paramat, what should I do? Remove the mod? My players would kill me ... I would adjust its code if it wasn't written so extremely complicated
19:19 IhrFussel I was thinking about removing everything except for saplings/tree/wood blocks and change those to use nodetimers
19:20 paramat 'only a few mods with high runtime' is irrelevant, the server is as laggy as the laggiest mod (moretrees)
19:23 tenplus1 joined #minetest-hub
19:23 tenplus1 hi folks
19:23 IhrFussel hi tenplus1
19:23 Shara IhrFussel: About moretrees, it gets a lot better if you stop new trees appearing on mapgen
19:23 tenplus1 o/ fussel
19:23 tenplus1 hi shara
19:23 Shara Hi tenplus1
19:24 Raven262 Hi ten.
19:24 tenplus1 hey raven
19:24 tenplus1 what's new ?
19:24 IhrFussel I know that paramat but I was just saying out of my ~ 160 mods (which may sound a lot but most of them just add a thing or 2) only ~ 10 seem to cause frequent lag
19:24 Raven262 I made a new box on insidethebox.
19:24 Raven262 Now i found myself playing minetest only on that server. Amazing, truly.
19:24 tenplus1 yeah I read that, Sofar said it'd keep anyone busy for an hour :) is it that hard ?
19:25 Raven262 Yes.
19:25 Raven262 I tried to make it harder than the 51.
19:25 tenplus1 ehehe, gotta try it... what number is it ?
19:25 rubenwardy is it a bug that Minetest's max_user is one more than the actual maximimum users?
19:25 Raven262 168
19:25 tenplus1 hi ruben
19:25 rubenwardy minetest doesn't have reserved slots...
19:25 rubenwardy hey
19:25 Shara rubenwardy: it's just the closer it gets to max, the more likely it is players can't connect
19:25 * tenplus1 had an idea
19:25 IhrFussel There is a new callback mods can call to still let players with certain privs/abilities through
19:26 paramat IhrFussel erm, the ABM that grows the 'on mapgen' saplings, adjust that to have a higher 'chance' value but a smaller interval so that it doesn't grow so many trees at once
19:26 tenplus1 hi paramat
19:27 IhrFussel paramat, higher chance and smaller interval is better than higher interval and smaller chance?
19:27 paramat yes
19:27 paramat becasue it splits the work into a larger number of smaller operations
19:28 shivajiva Hiya tenplus
19:28 tenplus1 hi shiva o/
19:28 paramat more tiny lags are better than a few huge ones
19:28 tenplus1 would it be possible to have a player override flag that draws everything on the client in full brightness ??? e.g.  night vision
19:28 paramat and of course, use the option to place 'on mapgen' saplings during mapgen, that grow later
19:28 Shara tenplus1: that would be nice :D
19:29 paramat .. that option is the default now i think for that mod
19:29 tenplus1 was thinking since we have a map item for overhead maps, a telescope item for zoom priv, that it would be nice to have client draw everything in full brightness if say a special night vision potion was used and then turn it off agter a time
19:31 Raven262 joined #minetest-hub
19:32 paramat Ihr, remember the 'chance' value is inverted in meaning, larger value == less chance
19:33 IhrFussel paramat, I know right now I set it to interval 8 and chance 10 ... not good?
19:34 twoelk joined #minetest-hub
19:35 CalebDavis hi ten
19:36 CalebDavis the full brightness would be awesome and since we will have a map and binoculars it would be good as night vision goggles
19:36 tenplus1 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6509
19:36 tenplus1 hi caleb
19:37 Krock > full brightness
19:37 Krock > totally white
19:37 Krock "helpful"
19:37 tenplus1 hey krock :)
19:37 Krock hi tenplus1
19:37 tenplus1 it'd be a neat feature to have available for all sorts of potions and abilities
19:38 tenplus1 hell, even a reverse feature for blindness would be handy ;SD
19:38 Fixer nerzhul: any news?
19:39 tenplus1 hi fixer
19:39 Fixer hi tenplus1`
19:45 Fixer looking at core i3-8100 linux benchmarks, very impressive results
19:45 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
19:45 tenplus1 hi thomas
19:45 Fixer quad core will be mainstream very soon
19:45 tenplus1 ??
19:45 ThomasMonroe hi ten
19:45 paramat IhrFussel i would set chance higher than 10. work out roughly how many mod tree saplings can be in the active block areas of an average number of players (10?), this value could be around 128 saplings, you would set the chance to that value to have one tree grown per ABM action. then keep halving the value until you see a problematic amount of lag. interval could be less but would keep it >=2s. maybe start with
19:45 paramat chance 64?
19:46 Fixer and that means, minetest should utilise more cores since we are pretty much going into quad core in budget PC
19:46 Fixer both with AMD and Intel
19:46 tenplus1 sweeet
19:47 Fixer core i3 is now fully quad core CPU (pretty = core i5)
19:47 paramat .. and monitor the profiler data for the moretrees ABM to find the optimum 'chance'
19:47 Fixer core i3 8100 vs my core i3 2120 is 2x speed boost in many applications
19:47 Fixer for the same price
19:48 Fixer and i had without incl graphics
19:49 Shara Looks like max_lag on DL is dropping constantly then goes back up whenever someone joins.
19:49 tenplus1 coudl just be loading the area around them when they join shara
19:49 Shara So when people are joining all the time...
19:50 Shara tenplus1: it's too much for that
19:50 Shara DL was always a bit slower than I'd have liked, but it's gotten steadily worse despite me not changing anything.
19:52 Shara If I get a break in people joining, the performance is okay
19:52 Fixer and who is joining? those usual HitlerXXX who then stand on spawn or time out after joining
19:53 Shara Fixer: None of those currently.
19:53 Shara Not a single number named player yet
19:54 Shara At 8 players and max_lay = 3.6 currently, but it spikes to 6, or close, anytime someone joins
19:54 Shara Dropping steadily all the time no one new is joining
19:54 Shara Yup.. a join and back to 5.4
19:55 tenplus1 must be loading something in the background per player join that's causing issue
19:55 Shara That's all I can think of
19:56 Shara The question is what
19:56 Fixer phoronix in 2017 - still no good conclusions page
20:04 IhrFussel paramat, thanks for those suggestions, I changed the values now based on your input ... and I set the server_step to 0.15 let's see if the machine can handle it fine
20:09 IhrFussel sofar, would 0.15 get a green indicator?
20:09 Krock joined #minetest-hub
20:11 Shara IhrFussel: if it doesn't have more problems that push the score, then I think so
20:13 IhrFussel Well right now it says 148 on the server list so I'm guessing avg is 0.148s?
20:13 tenplus1 nite folks
20:13 tenplus1 left #minetest-hub
20:13 Shara That's my assumption anyway
20:13 Shara And yes, 148 is what I was sitting at when using .15
20:14 Shara so I guess not green
20:14 Shara But.. I don't know anymore
20:14 Shara I do feel a server runnign on .15 should be able to get green since it's completely playable
20:14 Shara running*
20:17 shivajiva hehehe ruben is testing me, have you seen areas code?
20:17 IhrFussel 0.15 - 0.20 should be green-yellow at least... < 0.15 green, 0.15 - 0.20 green-yellow, 0.21 - 0.274 yellow and > 0.275 red
20:17 Shara Have looked at it a few times...
20:18 shivajiva it's very objective contextually
20:18 Shara IhrFussel: sofar is suggestnig 0.125 and lower for green, but I assume you mean server step now?
20:18 IhrFussel I mean 0.201 - 0.274 yellow*
20:19 Shara hmm
20:24 IhrFussel I mean the value you see in the server list..like 148 for mine now
20:24 IhrFussel I'm assuming those are the avg ms
20:25 Shara I'm just wondering exactly how much difference remote media really makes
20:25 sofar probably none
20:26 Shara sofar: it's just that the problem seems to be on player join
20:26 sofar hmmm
20:26 sofar well then it's a legit problem
20:26 Shara RC previously had the same issues DL seems to have, and remote media was one of the things that appears to have made a huge difference
20:27 sofar what if 20 players all join at the same time?
20:27 Shara DL is showing steadily decreasing max_lag until a player joins.. then it jumps straight back up again
20:27 sofar I run mtmediasrv myself, I don't want the bandwidth to go through minetest
20:28 Shara RC uses the TPS media server. Just wondering whether I will ask permission to add Dl's media there as well
20:28 sofar I wish robbief would use mtmediasrv, using the index.mth method is just a waste of bandwidth
20:29 Shara It's what existed at the time
20:29 Shara He'd probably update
20:29 Shara But he's kind of busy with non-MT things.
20:29 sofar yes but mtmediasrv is like 6 months old by now, and tested in deployment for 3+ months
20:29 sofar at least people whould understand why the index.mth method sucks
20:29 Shara Poke him about it when you see him maybe? I don't know it well enough to mak e astrong case for switching
20:31 sofar maybe I should just run a community media server
20:32 Shara Could be nice. There's probably a few servers around that would get huge gains.
20:38 sofar I'd want it on a different host than my server though
20:38 Shara Well, yes. :)
20:38 sofar right now it's on the same host as my server
20:38 Shara WOuldn't make sense to hit your own performance
20:38 sofar which is OK for my own server
20:39 Shara You might want to set a limit on amount of media too. Some servers seem to have an insane amount.
20:39 sofar with mtmediasrv, it's not a big deal
20:43 Shara DL doesn't even have a huge amount of media. But I still don't really see what else it can be.
20:43 sofar the problem is the connecting client without media is occupying cycles of the server thread
20:43 paramat wut? someone joining causes 6s of lag? that's insane
20:43 sofar and asking it for 500+ items by hash
20:44 IhrFussel What is "huge"? My server has ~ 35 MB media
20:44 sofar I've got 35mb+ as well
20:44 sofar I'd say that's huge though, I have 10 audio tracks worth 17mb, and 36 skybox textures totalling another 15mb
20:44 sofar if I take those out I'd be at 5-10mb
20:45 Shara Each of my serevrs is around 10MB media I think
20:45 sofar yeah, that sounds reasonable
20:45 Shara RC does have a rather large space skybox for the space layer, and DL has mobs models, or they'd both be lower
20:45 sofar not that 35mb isn't unreasonable
20:45 IhrFussel Oops it's actually 45 MB xP
20:46 sofar it's just that android clients will just time out
20:46 Shara I've optimised quite aggressively though as well to push it down
20:46 sofar (which is a win)
20:46 IhrFussel If du -h is accurate 45M.minetest/worlds/oldserver/worldmods
20:46 Shara Well, not everything in mods directory will be media
20:48 IhrFussel The biggest files in it are models
20:50 IhrFussel Umm guys...the lag value in the server list doesn't really change
20:50 IhrFussel My server is on 148 now since I restarted even though there were quite a few smaller lags already
20:51 Shara DL moves about a bit.
20:51 Shara RC only seems to move between 99 to 104... I think that's the range I saw between checking
20:52 IhrFussel Then it must take a lot for it to change
20:53 LazyJ joined #minetest-hub
20:54 sofar that just means the value has consistency, which is good
20:54 sofar if it would flap around all the time, that would be bad
20:54 Shara t woul dhave been the first reset
20:55 Shara eww, mis-tabbed :)
20:56 IhrFussel sofar, does the server send that value or does the server list calculate it?
20:56 sofar it's sent by your server
20:56 IhrFussel Any clue in which file I can find it?
20:56 sofar you could cheat it, but I know you have a conscience
20:57 sofar src/server.cpp, I linked it earlier and in the github thread
20:57 IhrFussel I don't want to cheat it, I want to see what causes this consistency
20:57 sofar you can also not send it, btw
20:57 Shara IhrFussel: check for m_lag in server.cpp
20:58 Shara At least if I understood it right, based on where sofar said to look earlier, that will explain it
21:00 IhrFussel Someone explain this math to me: is m_lag the result of all lag values added? m_lag += (m_lag > dtime ? -1 : 1) * dtime/100;
21:00 Shara when m_lag > dtime it decreases, if I understand this
21:01 Shara otherwise it goes up
21:03 nerzhul Fixer, you problem seems to be related to windows only
21:03 nerzhul it seems it's a WSAEFAULT
21:07 Fixer okay
21:12 nerzhul Fixer, i pushed another commit, if you can test it could be nice
21:12 Fixer s u r e
21:13 nerzhul i know it's long, but handling a shit OS is not easy, as it seems to do crap things :D
21:15 Fixer c o m p i l i n g (please wait 6 minutes, i forgot to create yet another buildbot script)
21:15 Fixer meanwhile -> beta 1.7.3
21:18 nerzhul Fixer, git fetch && git checkout origin/network_asio instead of cloning
21:19 Fixer nerzhul: i just do git pull and then compile it
21:19 Fixer actually fuuuuuuuuuck
21:19 nerzhul it works too
21:19 Fixer ofc i can do simple mingw-make after that instead of running that script
21:20 Fixer compiling done very soon
21:22 Fixer linking that 160 mb exe is slow
21:22 Fixer done, testing
21:22 nerzhul debug powa :p
21:23 Fixer :)
21:23 Fixer (:
21:23 nerzhul same thing it seems no ?
21:23 Fixer connection lost
21:23 nerzhul same log ?
21:23 Fixer hmmmm, prelast line seems different
21:24 Fixer i need to translate that crap somehow
21:24 nerzhul interesting, show me
21:24 nerzhul it's windows error
21:24 nerzhul it seems your translation was not accurate i didn't found how to solve the previous error or somebody with it on google :p
21:24 Fixer nerzhul: https://pastebin.com/raw/XsQJp6Zu
21:25 nerzhul can you give me original message without modificaiton please ?
21:25 Fixer no, it is in other language, good luck translating that
21:25 Fixer message given by os
21:26 nerzhul what is your language ?
21:26 Fixer ukrainian
21:26 nerzhul ouch exact it should be difficult :p
21:28 Fixer let me try to find it
21:29 nerzhul Fixer, i got the error
21:29 nerzhul https://github.com/chriskohlhoff/asio/issues/86
21:29 Fixer nerzhul: line #2 is WSAENOTSOCK 10038
21:29 nerzhul it's this issue
21:29 nerzhul IPv6 / IPv4 on UDP
21:29 nerzhul on window
21:31 Fixer error codes https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library​/windows/desktop/ms740668(v=vs.85).aspx
21:31 Fixer yeah, and line #1 is very probably " "The system has detected an invalid pointer address in attempting to use a pointer argument in a call""
21:31 Fixer WSAEFAULT 10014
21:40 nerzhul Fixer, i got the solution
21:40 Fixer okay
21:40 nerzhul it's pushed, your turn now :D
21:41 nerzhul i added a workaround by closing UDP socket and reopening it as v6 if remote_endpoint in TCP is V4
21:41 nerzhul reopening as v4
21:41 Fixer kicked in "mingw32-make package -j$(nproc)"
21:41 Fixer should be much faster
21:41 Fixer yeah it is faster
21:44 nerzhul nice it works :D
21:44 Fixer connected!
21:44 nerzhul thanks winshit :p
21:45 Fixer nerzhul: got crash
21:45 nerzhul long but now there are useful logs on each endpoint to understand what happens
21:45 Fixer lolol
21:45 nerzhul Fixer, oh, give me the BT
21:45 nerzhul but it's nice, we move forward :p
21:45 Fixer need to rerun it under gdb
21:46 nerzhul server crash wait a minute i'm doing a fix on it, it sems it's due to non MT users connecting on the server
21:46 Fixer lol
21:46 Fixer non MT users?
21:46 Fixer chinese bots?
21:47 nerzhul i don't know but the starting sequence trigger my huge packet detector
21:47 nerzhul i should handle such cases and forbid them
21:47 nerzhul server is up and i pushed some fixes
21:48 Fixer the way falling nodes are moving is strange
21:48 Fixer it is not smooth
21:50 nerzhul yeah i think i should check if it's not send as reliable
21:50 Fixer nerzhul: i have weird position problems
21:50 nerzhul it seems you lag
21:51 Fixer nerzhul: sometimes i'm transfered back to some position
21:51 Fixer suddenly
21:51 nerzhul yeah because you lag, server reset your position
21:51 nerzhul (anticheat)
21:53 nerzhul crash erf
21:53 nerzhul seems the scanners are triggering some bugs i don't catch atm :p
21:53 Fixer nerzhul: i don't have much problems with lag on any servers, this position reset is huge
21:54 Fixer nerzhul: packets flow and then stop and then after some seconds LOTS arrive
21:54 nerzhul yeah we should anaylyze that but i'm tired
21:55 nerzhul at least we fixed your connection problem on windows, and for all windows
21:55 nerzhul maybe jas_ will not have problem now :)
21:55 Fixer is there really any benefits of this?
21:55 Fixer asio thing
21:55 nerzhul code maintenance, network performance and handling on laggy clients
21:56 Fixer nerzhul: crash on joining singleplayer
21:56 nerzhul current network doesn't resist well when a slow client connects
21:56 Fixer nerzhul: backtrace follows
21:56 nerzhul i will go to bed, give me backtraces tomorrow :)
21:57 Fixer nerzhul: one sec
21:57 rubenwardy any recommendations for good meta privileges mods? For example, I can make a meta privilege called "moderator" which gives certain permissions, and takes them away when revoked
21:58 Fixer nerzhul: https://pastebin.com/raw/mas1HY15
21:59 Aerozoic rubenwardy, i'm not sure i follow, got a better example?
21:59 Fixer nerzhul: and winsock gave different errors
21:59 rubenwardy so I can do   /grant playername moderator, and it gives them ban, kick, basic_privs but not a priv called moderator
21:59 rubenwardy as there is no priv called moderator
22:00 rubenwardy like how all is a meta privilege that grants or revokes all privileges
22:00 rubenwardy I'm sure I've seen a mod like this
22:00 Aerozoic ohhhh ok
22:01 nerzhul Fixer, disconnection issue
22:01 nerzhul does MT told you in console why ?
22:01 Fixer nerzhul: there were two errors
22:02 Fixer nerzhul: 1) invalid name of the network
22:02 rubenwardy doesn't have to work like that
22:02 Fixer nerzhul: 2) input-output operation terminated because stop of flow of commands or on interrupt
22:03 rubenwardy any way of letting me define groups of players with certain privileges would be nice
22:03 Fixer or interrupted by application (or smth)
22:03 rubenwardy like how IRC's access lists does it
22:03 Fixer can't find suitable winsock error
22:03 Fixer probably #1 is WSAENETUNREACH
22:04 Fixer 10051
22:04 nerzhul i push a test to ensure socket is opened before closing it, just test it and tell me tomorrow, i'm very very tired and need to sleep
22:04 nerzhul yeah WSAENETUNREACH is the problem
22:04 nerzhul without doubt
22:04 nerzhul the crash is a bad disconnection handling
22:04 Fixer nerzhul: i've tested on outdated client btw
22:04 Fixer i will check newest
22:05 Fixer tested on d865
22:05 nerzhul not so old :p
22:06 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
22:07 Fixer nerzhul: if you wait just a little, i will check
22:07 Fixer like 1-2 minutes
22:07 nerzhul okay, but it's the last time :p
22:07 Fixer creating package
22:08 Fixer nerzhul: yeah, crash
22:09 Fixer 3rd error with "remote host closed connection"
22:10 Fixer everything else looks the same
22:10 Fixer same interlocked thing in backtrace
22:10 nerzhul we will look tomorrow
22:10 Fixer /quit
22:11 nerzhul other thing i forgot to tell, TCP usage permits to reduce latency as stream will be sent as biggest packets on network, MT uses 500 , but with a TCP stream it's dynamicly adjusted and generally set to 1400-1480
22:11 nerzhul for reliable packets it's faster
22:13 Jordach joined #minetest-hub
22:13 nerzhul ty for your time
22:14 Fixer np
22:17 Shara So at 21 players DL is reporting in the same range for max_lag as when there's only 5 players...  issue being with on join seems more and more likely.
22:18 Aerozoic rubenwardy, i could see that useful for owners. I could create groups like moderator and admin with the appropriate privs for each.
22:19 Aerozoic groups = meta priv
22:20 Aerozoic btw rubenwardy, any chance that privilegeareas mod will ever be fixed?
22:21 rubenwardy people still use that? :D
22:21 Aerozoic I really like the idea of it, i installed it for my server then discovered that critical issue.
22:22 Shara I always liked the idea of it.
22:23 rubenwardy well, I'll add it to my to do list
22:23 Aerozoic :D
22:23 rubenwardy keep in mind that it currently has just under 100 entries on it
22:23 Fixer Shara: just curious, can you join server and type F6 and look at first SEnv step?
22:23 Aerozoic lol, yeah i figured
22:23 Fixer Shara: your server
22:24 Shara Sure.
22:24 Aerozoic rubenwardy, but shouldn't it get bumped up just a little since i reported the issue months ago?   :)
22:24 Shara Tell me what I'm looking for?
22:25 Shara Hmm, don't see SEnv. Just CEnv?
22:26 Fixer type F6 more
22:26 Shara I did, but not seeing it
22:26 Shara Three pages total
22:26 Fixer SEnv should be there
22:27 Shara First page has things starting CEnv and CM
22:27 Fixer page 2
22:27 Fixer SEnv step
22:27 Shara Second has more CM things... Client .., Elasped time and FPS
22:28 Shara Last page has mesh update, meshgen, rendering of clouds, sky, and collision things
22:28 Fixer okay
22:28 Fixer nevermind then
22:28 Fixer ty for checking
22:29 Shara No problem. More than happy to look into anything if people have ideas
22:34 Shara Maploading seems quite fast, but lag keeps reporting high.
22:35 Shara I've asked a few players if they feel much lag while playing, and they seem to think it's fine
22:35 Shara I just don't get it
22:35 Shara Even chests are responding instantly at the moment, which is usually where I notice a delay if I'm going to
22:38 Fixer Shara: try IhrFusse ls tool
22:39 Calinou I pushed the README rewrite thing to Map Tools too :P
22:39 Fixer Calinou: rewrite all the readmes
22:39 Calinou "README as a Service"
22:39 rubenwardy I just snipped someone from ~50m, and the idiot just kept looking around and didn't hide so I killed them
22:39 rubenwardy silly mobile player
22:39 Calinou rubenwardy: mobile players are just cannonfodder in CTF :P
22:39 rubenwardy yeah
22:40 Shara I'm wondering if in general the lag is actually normal and it's just the joins keep pushing ip up with enough quick spikes that it keeps reporting high
22:40 Shara it*
22:40 rubenwardy the last match was quite fun as my flag kept getting stolen whilst I was carrying the enemy's back
22:40 rubenwardy so had to keep intercepting and killing them
22:40 Shara But that still means the joins are a problem.... maybe will try FUssel's mod though
22:40 Fixer Shara: take fussels lag tool, set fast report interval and observe the lag when players join
22:41 Fixer Shara: just chainge two numbers in it from 60 sec to smth like 1 sec
22:41 Fixer change
22:42 Shara Yes.. but not tonight.
22:42 IhrFussel If you set it to 1 sec it will simply tell you the realtime dtime
22:43 Fixer yeah
22:43 paramat when someone joins do players actually experience server lagging for 6s? because that would be a very annoying lag
22:43 IhrFussel Well the realtime dtime average of the recent second*
22:43 Shara Need to spend a little time staring at sfinv before I'm too tired to
22:44 Shara paramat: no, but max lag reported goes up by 1 to 2
22:44 Fixer paramat: maybe it is that thing sorcerykid reported about larghe auth.txt?
22:44 Shara Then it starts to fall again, until another player joins
22:44 Shara And they are joining often enough that the max lag never seems to get to less than 3 (and rarely that given how busy the server can be)
22:44 IhrFussel Shara, the auth.txt gets rewritten in on_joinplayer() yes
22:45 Shara I might need to look at reducing auth file size as well
22:45 IhrFussel To update the last login timestamp
22:45 Shara Good idea
22:45 paramat maybe i misundertand and 'max lag' is not actually the experienced server lag
22:45 IhrFussel Also the auth file is rewritten whenever you change privs
22:45 Shara I pruned RC's auth file from 34MB to less than 3MB today...
22:45 Fixer paramat: max_lag is moving exponential average (for pretty long time) so it kinda useless for understanding current lag
22:46 Shara For me, max lag just tells you if it's getting better or worse
22:46 Shara So if it's gone up shareply, you know something bad happened
22:46 Shara If it's decreasing, things are good
22:46 Fixer Shara: lag over ... say 10 minutes
22:46 Shara sharply*
22:47 Fixer Shara: you can have lag 10, yet it is not 10 anymore, but 0.020
22:47 Fixer thats why I ask about curr_lag in /status
22:47 Fixer to stop this misunderstand of statistics
22:47 Fixer IhrFussel: you should post your lag mod on github and forums, it is useful
22:47 IhrFussel avg_lag should be about what my /lag reports
22:48 Shara Yea, it would be nice to have a more immediately value
22:48 Shara immediate*
22:48 paramat here's sorcerykid's issue https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5334 any relevance?
22:48 Fixer possibly, Shara needs to install that mod and do per second measurement and correlate it with people joins
22:49 Shara Fixer: I know it correlates
22:49 Shara paramat: yea, might be related
22:49 Shara DL is definitely high traffic with lots of joins
22:49 Fixer also, look up size of your auth.txt
22:49 IhrFussel Shara, my mod tells you the max_lag of the recent second so you can exactly see if the lag happened at the moment of the joining 100%
22:50 IhrFussel You need to set 60 to 1 of course
22:50 Shara Fussel, yea, but like I said, not touching mods there again tonight
22:50 Shara Fixer: I am pretty certain auth will be an issue too now it's been mentioned
22:51 Shara At what size would you say auth is too big?
22:51 IhrFussel Fixer, will make it standalone later and post on forums...not sure how to post something on github yet
22:52 IhrFussel I will also add a simple var at the beginning of the file to set seconds
22:52 Shara Fussel, happy to help you with getting it on github if you need
22:52 Shara This would be a very nice mod for people to have access to
22:53 IhrFussel Is it just 1 command to upload to github?
22:54 IhrFussel That would be too easy I think x)
22:54 Shara You need to start a repo first, then add the files, then commit, then push
22:54 rubenwardy don't upload zips
22:55 Shara That too :)
22:55 rubenwardy upload the mod files with no directory. So init.lua should be in the root of the repo
22:55 rubenwardy I suggest trying Github Desktop
22:55 paramat reopened the issue
22:56 * Shara is having seriously thoughts about trying shivajiva sauth mod there
22:56 Shara 's*
22:56 rubenwardy y?
22:56 Shara The auth file is just short of 40MB
22:57 Shara RC's auth file corrupted last night at slightly less than that size
22:57 rubenwardy so you'd like to try it?
22:57 rubenwardy ah
22:57 rubenwardy I think you meant you were having second thoughts about trying it
22:57 Shara rubenwardy: just wondering if it would help reduce problems from player joins, since that's what seems to be causing my issues on DL
22:58 Shara And it's been suggested writing to auth.txt could be at least part of that
22:58 rubenwardy it should do as sqlite should be able to handle more data than a file
22:58 rubenwardy otherwise why would it be used?
22:58 Shara That's what I'm thinking
22:58 Shara auth being an issue could also explain why this has got worse over time
22:59 Jordach >goes to frontier expo
23:00 Jordach >gets full on MIT talk about biological life
23:02 Calinou frontier expo?
23:02 Fixer Shara: lol,mb
23:02 Fixer 40mb*
23:02 Fixer impressive
23:02 Calinou rubenwardy: oh, it's nice, you have an official CTF server again
23:02 Calinou what's the server specs?
23:02 Calinou it has 19/21 players, probably due to connecting players, heh
23:03 Calinou I like how you can call a server "Capture the flag" and it instantly gets tons of players, 24/7
23:03 rubenwardy ha
23:04 rubenwardy I think it's an i5 with 8GB ram and a 1TB hard drive
23:04 Fixer Shara: quite strange to see that huge auth.txt on servers, there are that much players? or there is this stuuupid shit with those mobile joining with different nickname each time?
23:04 rubenwardy may be wrong on the CPU
23:04 rubenwardy ah, i3
23:04 rubenwardy Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-2130 CPU @ 3.40GHz
23:04 Shara Fixer:  DL is very busy
23:04 Fixer rubenwardy: my CPU ^_^
23:04 Shara Like.. quite often constant joins
23:04 rubenwardy CTF doesn't need a SSD as the hard drive use is non-existent
23:05 Fixer Shara: i have an idea
23:06 Fixer Shara: some mod that calculates players statistics, how often they join, for how long they play, avg play time between rejoins etc, number of player who no longer play, etc
23:06 paramat wow 40MB
23:06 rubenwardy Calinou, there are 2 other servers - OldCoder CTF and ESP CTF
23:06 rubenwardy but they are consistently at 0-2 players
23:06 rubenwardy not sure why
23:06 rubenwardy lag maybe?
23:06 paramat hehe
23:06 Shara I should check what's happening with ESP.
23:06 Shara It used to be crazy busy
23:07 Fixer Shara: they can't just constantly join, they fumble for like few minutes and probably quit? otherwise you will have full server
23:07 Shara Server is pretty full
23:07 Shara But yes, obviously they leave too
23:07 Fixer hometown had 67 or smth players recently o_O
23:07 rubenwardy > uses server password on PC to sudo
23:07 rubenwardy urgh
23:08 Fixer sudo is life
23:08 Shara Thing that makes me think it must be on join is that the reported lag is in a constant range no matter the actual numbe rof players. Justs eems to correlate with joins. Others have confirmed now.
23:10 Fixer rubenwardy: for some reason thinked about that South Park episode with hand written porn, so good, need to rewatch
23:10 Fixer thats why you have local copy of everything
23:10 Fixer not really everything, most important parts
23:11 rubenwardy Calinou, 0.05s dedicated_server_step, not visible jitter :)
23:11 rubenwardy may try reducing to 0.02-0.03
23:11 paramat how to be popular: try to be MC. i suspect the popularity of multicraft is down to this, there will obviously be a huge number of people who want a 'free MC'
23:11 Fixer paramat: and you ask me not to measure to mc standard, mc is standard, and people will ask this
23:12 Fixer people expect basic mc features
23:12 Fixer look for example inventory management
23:12 Fixer minetest is light years behind in this and has like shift-click as top feature, thats mc beta like
23:12 Fixer entity movement by liquids, other interactivity
23:13 Fixer maybe we need to include mineclone2
23:13 Fixer to minetest
23:13 Fixer and rename it to smth better
23:13 Fixer mineclone2 to minesomething
23:13 Fixer obvious to minecrafters
23:13 Fixer and implement mc like stuff there
23:13 Calinou rubenwardy: 0.05 is good enough, I guess, 0.03333 (30 Hz) is probably too much right now
23:14 rubenwardy I suspect it will cause issues
23:14 Fixer include in minetest at least: 0) mtg 1) tutorial from wuzzy 2) mineclone2 3) boxes from sofar 4) other?
23:14 rubenwardy especially for mobile clients
23:14 Fixer rubenwardy: are you on server right now?
23:15 rubenwardy not MC2, there's going to tm/patent issues most likely
23:15 sofar insidethebox is not going to be offline
23:15 rubenwardy I can be in 10, need to brb
23:15 sofar not any time soon, and I don't see the point
23:15 paramat "and you ask me not to measure to mc standard" that's irrelevant
23:15 Fixer rubenwardy: tm/patent issues? o_O rename all stuff?
23:16 rubenwardy urgh
23:16 Fixer paramat: mc has lots of good features, naturally people want that backported into mt
23:16 rubenwardy I think I'm going to have to remove vote on CTF
23:16 rubenwardy or limit it heavily
23:16 Fixer lol, full CTF server
23:16 Calinou rubenwardy: I'm not sure if Microsoft/Mojang have any *patents* on Minecraft
23:16 Calinou there would be copyright and trademark issues, though
23:16 Fixer patented snow blocks? wth
23:17 Fixer shulker boxes? just rename it
23:17 rubenwardy lol, the server is 1 in, 1 out
23:18 Fixer i don't see much of a problem there, sensitive stuff can be renamed
23:18 paramat it's unreasonble for people to expect MT to be an exact MC clone
23:18 Shara rubenwardy: told you vote is annoying :)
23:19 Fixer not exact, but a lot of mc features are cool/nice in gameplay and people like it, including those may add more popularity to minetest game
23:19 ThomasMonroe is nore on?
23:19 Fixer or some obvious stuff
23:19 Fixer minetest game has weapons
23:20 Fixer where is weapons you have shields (bingo
23:20 Fixer )
23:20 Fixer you have pvp = knockback
23:20 Fixer and other pvp effects
23:20 twoelk left #minetest-hub
23:20 Fixer you have farming = suggests smth
23:20 paramat yes i did think that a mineclone game would pull in players, not sure if wuzzy would allow including it
23:20 Fixer etc
23:21 Fixer lol, wuzzy very probably wants it
23:21 ThomasMonroe hey Fixer Caleb had a really cool idea for tool
23:21 ThomasMonroe tools*
23:21 Fixer iirc, he had frustration on why people work on mtg only, but not on others too
23:22 Fixer ThomasMonroe: what tools?
23:22 ThomasMonroe have different types of workshops, ie a grinding wheel for increasing dig time
23:22 ThomasMonroe er decreasing
23:22 Fixer work he done on mc2 is quite impressive
23:22 ThomasMonroe or a CNC for making the tool lighter for faster swing time
23:23 paramat but yes i see possible issues with mineclone being so similar to MC
23:23 Fixer maybe thats already implemented, those drills, but i have not used it
23:24 Fixer to me minetest_game is still basicly early minecraft beta clone, with no armour and no automation, even some textures were well mc betish
23:24 Fixer i can feel cl55 used mc beta as a kind of benchmark
23:25 Fixer minetest_game has much more blocks
23:25 Fixer they are nicer too
23:25 Fixer variety of mapgens, that btw need richer biomes, they are pretty simple right now
23:26 paramat ~tell twoelk please could you keep your leave message very short, it's spammy and is not meant to be used as a forum signature =)
23:26 ShadowBot paramat: O.K.
23:28 paramat MTG is meant to be simple, very rich biomes are for other subgames or mods. however we are working on more flora
23:28 * Shara mutters something about underground things and then hides
23:29 paramat there's not much point listing everything MC has that MT doesn't, they're differnet games, and most of what you suggest is already intended, it's just down to dev time and priorities
23:30 rubenwardy I think we need more texturers
23:30 rubenwardy for me, most of the time adding something is in making new textures
23:30 paramat yes underground decorations is within my next 2 tasks
23:30 rubenwardy how about making issues for each thing we want to add, and asking for support?
23:30 rubenwardy Fixer, joining ctf now
23:31 rubenwardy if you tell me when you're going to join, I can let you in
23:46 Fixer rubenwardy: unf-ly have to go, bye
23:46 rubenwardy o/
23:53 IhrFussel max_lag just spiked to 9.2 secs with 4 players...something I didn't see before
23:54 IhrFussel Not caused by any command since I log those

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