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IRC log for #minetest-hub, 2017-09-29

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Time Nick Message
00:52 TommyTreasure joined #minetest-hub
01:17 TommyTreasure joined #minetest-hub
01:20 atorian37 joined #minetest-hub
01:41 bigfoot547 !server  bigfoot
01:41 ShadowBot bigfoot547: server [--{name,address,ip,players,ping,port} <value>]
01:41 bigfoot547 !server bigfoot
01:41 ShadowBot bigfoot547: server [--{name,address,ip,players,ping,port} <value>]
01:42 bigfoot547 !server --name bigfoot
01:42 ShadowBot bigfoot547: No results.
01:42 bigfoot547 !server --port 30000
01:42 ShadowBot bigfoot547: Red Cat Creative | 51.254.216.93 | Clients: 2/11 | Version: 0.4.16 | Ping: 11ms
01:48 bigfoot547 Hey guys
01:48 bigfoot547 I'm making a minetest server. Anyone have any seed & mapgen & params suggestions?
01:50 NathanS21 joined #minetest-hub
02:09 bigfoot547 Ayy NathanS21
02:09 NathanS21 hi bigfoot547
02:10 benrob0329 Hi NathanS21, bigfoot547
02:10 bigfoot547 Hi benrob0329
02:11 NathanS21 hi benrob0329
02:11 bigfoot547 Do you have any suggestions for me, benrob?
02:11 benrob0329 Unfortunately no, I dont know any good map seeds
02:11 bigfoot547 Okay
02:13 sniper570 joined #minetest-hub
02:28 bigfoot547 agh
02:28 bigfoot547 I forgot to install ncurses
02:28 bigfoot547 I need to recompile minetest on 1 core :/
02:57 bigfoot547 !server --name bigfoot
02:57 ShadowBot bigfoot547: No results.
02:57 bigfoot547 !server --name Bigfoot
02:57 ShadowBot bigfoot547: No results.
03:13 LazyJ joined #minetest-hub
04:09 bigfoot547 Does anyone know how to get minetestserver to fork into the background?
04:46 Calinou bigfoot547: what for? you can run minetestserver as a systemd service
04:46 Calinou (or in a GNU screen instance)
04:46 Calinou the former is preferred for continuous operation, however it means you can no longer access it via a ncurses console
04:46 bigfoot547 Calinou: Ayy, Didn't think of that.
04:46 bigfoot547 Thanks Calinou
04:46 bigfoot547 That should be fine, I could always log in :P
04:46 Calinou the latter still lets you access a ncurses console, but you need to take care of automatic restarts (on server boot or crashing) yourself
04:47 Calinou I have a systemd service file for minetestserver, and a cron job for minetestmapper
04:49 Calinou bigfoot547: feel free to use this template :) https://gist.github.com/Calinou/​b958b8aac735046381e3a0c4ffc150a6
04:50 Calinou this is for a system-wide installed minetestserver (via `make install`)
04:51 Calinou https://gist.github.com/Calinou/​a1ac5604c7acc407dbb060682d76e57b
04:51 Calinou mapper script
04:51 Calinou that script is called using `0 */6 * * *     /home/hugo/.minetest/mapper.sh` in cron (`crontab -e`)
04:52 bigfoot547 Thanks Calinou :)
04:52 Calinou you're welcome :)
04:53 Calinou here's my server's .conf file, too: https://gist.github.com/Calinou/​683cb0748efe867be6e18f86f206a6b7
04:53 Calinou lots of optimizations there (mostly targeted at high-end VPSes or dedicated machines)
04:59 bigfoot547 Cool! Thanks!
05:01 bigfoot547 *bookmarks gists*
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07:24 nerzhul joined #minetest-hub
07:56 Raven262 Hi Calinou
08:07 nerzhul heh my minetestserver now compiles with asio, i need minetest client now and serialize NetworkPacket :)
08:07 nerzhul i hope i can have a working (not totally finished) PoC for this network rewrite
08:16 tenplus1 joined #minetest-hub
08:16 tenplus1 hi folks
08:16 Raven262 Hi ten
08:16 Raven262 It seems that fix works
08:16 tenplus1 hi raven :)
08:16 tenplus1 fix ?
08:16 Raven262 I got no disconnections this night at all
08:17 tenplus1 ohh, the QoS thing
08:17 Raven262 Yea
08:17 tenplus1 glad to hear :)))  windows has many weird services ripe for disabling :D
08:17 Raven262 QoS might also be the reason of ping jumping over 400 when playing online games.
08:18 Raven262 And when nothing else is using the network speed, of course
08:19 tenplus1 QoS is a service that winblows uses to reserve bandwidth for many things... it can take as much as 20% of your internet speed away from you
08:19 Raven262 Thats a lot
08:20 tenplus1 indeed...
08:20 tenplus1 if I really have to install windows for a client there's around 20 services that get removed to make it work properly :D
08:22 Raven262 lol
08:25 IhrFussel joined #minetest-hub
08:25 tenplus1 hi fussel
08:26 nerzhul joined #minetest-hub
08:26 tenplus1 hi nrz
08:26 nerzhul hi
08:27 IhrFussel Hey^^ ... I just read in the log about "forking minetestserver to background" and on Linux it's as simple as adding a & at the end
08:27 tenplus1 forking to background process ?
08:28 IhrFussel I guess bigfoot meant it like that but nobody mentioned "&"
08:29 IhrFussel Not sure if & works on Windows too
08:31 IhrFussel But the win shell (power shell) looks more complicated in general... At least less so than the old CMD
08:32 IhrFussel Doesn't forking mean "copy" though?
08:32 IhrFussel Like on github if you fork a repo you basically copy it
08:33 tenplus1 would be great if minetestserver would make full use of GPU for mod/map functions
08:38 tenplus1 that would speed up servers considerably and prolly allow us to have more than 50 players at a time
08:40 CWz joined #minetest-hub
08:40 tenplus1 hi CWz
08:40 CWz Skippy
08:41 CWz Yo
08:41 tenplus1 :PP
08:42 IhrFussel Okay I looked it up "&" on Linux is actually called "fork process into background" even though I'm not sure why it says forking
08:43 tenplus1 strange wording indeed...
08:46 IhrFussel I'm asking #bash
09:06 Raven262 joined #minetest-hub
09:07 Calinou IhrFussel: good old "minetest & disown"
09:07 Calinou :)
09:07 Calinou (allows you to close the terminal in which Minetest was started, without closing Minetest)
09:07 tenplus1 hi Cal
09:08 Raven262 Wait you only need to add & disown for anything run from terminal?
09:08 tenplus1 problem with that is, if minetest crashes there's no real way to register crash and restart server if it's running as a background process
09:08 Raven262 It works!
09:09 Raven262 Well, this is a nice thing to know.
09:16 Krock joined #minetest-hub
09:17 Krock hi tenplus1
09:17 Krock (almost missed the chance!)
09:17 tenplus1 hi Krock
09:17 tenplus1 :)
09:22 IhrFussel If you operate via ssh you don't even need "disown"
09:22 IhrFussel I never used disown, the terminal disowns wny background process as soon as I type exit
09:39 lisac joined #minetest-hub
09:40 tenplus1 hi lisac
09:41 lisac hey tenplus1
09:41 tenplus1 o/
10:02 Fixer joined #minetest-hub
10:02 tenplus1 hi fixer
10:05 Krock hi Fixer
10:08 Fixer hello
10:11 Calinou Raven262: yeah, that works with any program
10:11 Calinou <IhrFussel> If you operate via ssh you don't even need "disown"
10:11 Calinou this isn't true (unless it changed recently, but I doubt it)
10:12 Calinou unless you run the process in a screen/tmux instance
10:12 Calinou (or nohup)
10:20 sniper338 joined #minetest-hub
10:20 tenplus1 hi sniper
10:29 Amaz joined #minetest-hub
10:30 tenplus1 hi amaz
10:31 Raven262 Hi Amaz
10:32 Amaz Hello :)
10:43 Raven262 joined #minetest-hub
10:52 LazyJ joined #minetest-hub
10:52 tenplus1 wb LazyJ
10:52 LazyJ Thanks tenplus1 ;)
11:36 Darcidride joined #minetest-hub
11:36 tenplus1 hi Darcidride
11:37 TommyTreasure joined #minetest-hub
11:37 tenplus1 hi tommy
11:46 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
11:46 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
11:46 tenplus1 hi thomas
11:46 ThomasMonroe hi tem
11:46 ThomasMonroe ten*
11:47 CalebDavis joined #minetest-hub
11:47 tenplus1 hi caleb
11:47 CalebDavis hi ten
11:53 TommyTreasure joined #minetest-hub
11:55 sniper338 joined #minetest-hub
11:56 sniper338 joined #minetest-hub
11:58 sniper570 joined #minetest-hub
12:20 Aerozoic joined #minetest-hub
12:20 tenplus1 hi Aerozoic
12:20 Aerozoic wazup
12:20 tenplus1 trying to figure out sfinv again
12:20 tenplus1 you ?
12:20 Aerozoic haven't figured out what i wanna do yet, lol
12:26 CalebDavis hi Aerozoic
12:26 Aerozoic hi caleb
12:47 Darcidride Hi tenplus1
12:47 Raven262 joined #minetest-hub
12:47 tenplus1 o/
12:47 Raven262 o/
12:47 tenplus1 you getting kicked on and off again raven ?
12:47 Raven262 Nah, back on linux now
12:47 tenplus1 *phew*
12:47 Raven262 I was on windows earlier
12:49 * tenplus1 has simple_skins working with sfinv (kinda)
12:49 Raven262 Nice
12:50 Raven262 A formspec or a tab?
12:50 tenplus1 it's a tab that lets you select your skin
12:50 Raven262 Nice
12:50 tenplus1 sfinv is a pain in the butt though, jsut need to update formspec on selection
12:50 tenplus1 that's the only thing I'm looking for now
12:51 tenplus1 inv+ was a lot easier to use
12:52 Jordach joined #minetest-hub
12:52 tenplus1 hi Jordach
13:02 Jordach oooo new techmoan
13:02 tenplus1 whassat ?
13:02 Jordach https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_9IBIcsYj4
13:03 tenplus1 ahh, tape rivals :D
13:17 Krock not even possible to for fast forward
13:17 Krock *to do
13:17 tenplus1 that sucks
13:18 Krock and removing a stuck tape might be paintul too (opening the case et all)
13:18 Krock not very surprising that it hasn't got popular tbh
13:18 Jordach meanwhile i'm fulla salt
13:19 Jordach >NW-A35 Hi-Res Walkman
13:19 Jordach >loses to 1989 DD9 Cassette Walkman
13:19 Jordach i found a 1st gen mastering of Thriller
13:19 Jordach the hi-res flacs i have can't beat it
13:19 Jordach (pun intended)
13:19 tenplus1 heh
13:21 * Jordach dies laughing
13:21 Jordach goddamn puppets techmoan
13:23 Jordach he kills me everytime the puppets come out
13:23 Jordach it's always amusing
13:24 Jordach hmm, my training provider even has programming courses
13:30 Raven262 joined #minetest-hub
13:36 ThomasMonroe wb raven
13:38 sniper338 joined #minetest-hub
13:49 Raven262 thx
13:50 TommyTreasure joined #minetest-hub
13:56 benrob0329 Hello tenplus1, Jordach, ThomasMonroe, and Raven262
13:57 ThomasMonroe hey benrob
13:57 benrob0329 Just a note: I will be ln vacation starting Sunday
13:58 benrob0329 But I do recommend that you guys watch the next episode of Category5 TechTV :P
13:59 tenplus1 hi ben
14:01 tenplus1 is anyone good with sfinv ???
14:03 CalebDavis i am running minetest.generate_ores(vm) and then minetest.generate_decorations(vw) and it is generating the ores but not the decorations is there a reason for this?
14:03 Krock CalebDavis, use write_to_map afterwards
14:03 CalebDavis i am
14:03 benrob0329 I'm good at using it :D
14:04 tenplus1 *phew* false alarm... got it working eventually
14:04 tenplus1 damn thing wouldnt update when using it
14:04 Krock uhm.. they generate just fine in singlenode, but there's no biome information
14:04 Krock which means that all decorations/trees are generated everywhere
14:04 CalebDavis i am trying to get them in a new realm for a v7 world
14:05 Krock I suspect there's a Y limit for the decorations
14:06 Krock if your realm gets generated below Y=0, then I'm right with my assumption
14:06 CalebDavis yea mine is at -11000 ill try manualy placing them like caverealms does it
14:07 Krock instead, if you move it above Y=0, like +1000m, then you'll have the same issue with ores
14:07 Krock but the decorations will generate just fine there
14:08 CalebDavis no ores generate fine in the sky
14:08 Krock but there will be much less
14:08 CalebDavis i think it is the mgv7 that is getting in the way
14:24 tenplus1 Simple Skins updated to 0.5 - supports sfinv or inventory+
14:25 CWz what about ui
14:25 tenplus1 I aint touching that with a barge-pole
14:25 CWz correct me if i am wrong but wasn't inventory+ abandoned long ago
14:25 tenplus1 not at all, I keep the mod alive on my git page and update it
14:26 tenplus1 we use it exclusively on Xanadu
14:30 Raven262 Hi benrob0329
14:34 Raven262 joined #minetest-hub
14:35 Raven262 Hmmm I'm making a home server for lisac, I and one friend of ours to play on. Got any mod recommendations?
14:35 tenplus1 what kinda server do you want it to be ?
14:37 Raven262 A server for exploration, basically I need an interesting mapgen and some nice underground and stuff
14:37 Raven262 I also need an inventory mod
14:37 tenplus1 exploration = interesting mods to fill the world with goodies :)
14:37 tenplus1 Farming Redo
14:38 Raven262 Hmm, good idea
14:39 tenplus1 caverealms_lite gives you interesting underground caves to explore
14:39 Amaz Raven, you could use Duane's new C++ mapgen
14:39 Amaz That would be fun to explore :)
14:39 Raven262 Amaz, Its unfinished i think
14:39 Amaz Yeah
14:40 Raven262 And yea, its EPIC
14:40 Amaz That's the only problem with it :P
14:40 Raven262 I'm checking for updates on it every day
14:41 Raven262 Maybe the original caverealms?
14:44 CalebDavis the generate_decorations works i didnt have the schem path correct
14:44 CalebDavis XD :)
15:01 Raven262 tenplus1, farming_redo and toolranks seem incompatible
15:03 tenplus1 ? they do ?
15:03 tenplus1 I have farming redo and toolranks working on xanadu... hoe's have levels
15:04 Raven262 Exactly i get an error cause of that
15:04 tenplus1 what error ?
15:05 Raven262 toolranks/init.lua:30: attempt to concatenate local 'uses' (a nil value)
15:05 Raven262 toolranks/init.lua:30: in function 'create_description'
15:05 tenplus1 checking
15:09 tenplus1 k, sent pull request to lisac to fix issue
15:10 tenplus1 ooh! o.O lisac gave me admin...  er...  re-download toolranks and isntall, shoudl work now
15:11 tenplus1 does anyone have issues with unified_inventory and sfinv ???  I click a button in ui and sfinv opens
15:11 benrob0329 (Offtopic, fingerprint scanners are not so "secure") https://youtu.be/MAfAVGES-Yc
15:11 Raven262 thanks ten :D
15:11 tenplus1 lol, tape and a pencil can get passed most fingerprint scanners
15:11 tenplus1 working now raven ?
15:12 Raven262 It works! :D
15:12 tenplus1 sweet :P
15:16 tenplus1 who uses unified_inventory here ???
15:17 benrob0329 I used to, don't bother to install it anymore though
15:17 benrob0329 Sfinv is fine for most things
15:17 tenplus1 same...  it's not working for me here... keeps bringing up sfinv when I click unified_inventory button
15:19 CalebDavis i always use UI
15:19 Fixer_ joined #minetest-hub
15:19 tenplus1 am slowly convering any mods I have to use sfinv
15:20 tenplus1 just bags and homepos to go
15:39 TommyTreasure tenplus1, has the minetest-3d_armor in your repository different from the original mod by Stuart Jones?
15:39 tenplus1 yeah, it's a very old version
15:40 TommyTreasure has = is
15:40 tenplus1 will remove it soon :D
15:41 TommyTreasure admin armor suddenly changed its behaviour, and nothing has been edited since install.  checking original source now.  ty
15:42 tenplus1 I use the old 3d_armor code on xanadu which is tailored to work alongside other mods...
15:42 TommyTreasure will your hud_hunger still work with the original version of armor?
15:43 tenplus1 hud_hunger is blockmans old mod, might work but no-one else is maintaining it...
15:43 tenplus1 that was the last update
15:43 TommyTreasure hud_hunger and/or hudbars
15:43 tenplus1 wuzzy's hudbars has been updated many times since that release also
15:44 TommyTreasure thanks, i'll have to do a few updates later.  :)
15:44 sofar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4V5PR9Xh1s
15:44 tenplus1 o/ sofar
15:44 * Krock sets speed = 2
15:47 sofar are you smurfing my video?
15:51 sofar title: Inside the Box - Creating your first box - Guide
15:51 sofar 24 minutes of my soothing sexy voice explaining how to put a block of marble down
15:51 sofar ahem
15:51 sofar and other useful tips
15:51 tenplus1 lokl
15:57 * tenplus1 watches vines on youtube... soo funny :P
15:58 tenplus1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mevX0aEThcc warning: strong language in some
16:00 sofar I love how I spent 3+ hours creating an original work and when showing it off, I'm immediately replaced with a funny cat video
16:01 sofar continue with the cat videos
16:01 tenplus1 :P
16:02 sofar it's fine, I'll take some consolation in the 13 views I'm gonna get in the next week
16:03 benrob0329 sofar: dont worry, the one video you don't want people to see will end up getting thousands of views
16:04 sofar the walkthrough videos of the tutorials have gotten ~150 views, so it's not so bad
16:09 Krock nyancat replacement idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNoXnu8UwXM
16:09 Krock (animated, ofc)
16:09 sfan5 fractalcat
16:09 tenplus1 players would think they're trippin' if they found one of those
16:10 Krock ^^
16:11 benrob0329 tenplus1: and they dont when seeing PB&J pup's tail? Or a penut butter doge in general?
16:11 tenplus1 lol, I removed pb&j pups tail and replaced with rainbow in my redo mod :p
16:12 benrob0329 I'd much rather see a trippy fractal anomaly than...idk a living snack?
16:16 tenplus1 would love to see the model you come up with :)) for now nyan rainbows = amazing boots for speed
16:38 IhrFussel joined #minetest-hub
16:39 IhrFussel Calinou, ssh is generally the real terminal not some emulator so yes it is true: I do it since 1+ year and it never failed "minetest [parameters] & exit"
16:40 Calinou hmm, with &, yes
16:40 Calinou but not without &
16:40 IhrFussel We were talking about background forking the whole time
16:40 Calinou <sofar> 24 minutes of my soothing sexy voice explaining how to put a block of marble down
16:40 Calinou sofar: can we pay you to make the official Minetest announcer voice?
16:40 Calinou for achievements such as "Excellent Cobble Placement" or "Impressive Griefing"
16:41 Calinou this will be way better than anything Quake had :^)
16:42 Krock "Your first cobble/dirt house"
16:42 benrob0329 I could do it *voice cracks as a high pitched squeal is emitted*
16:42 Krock "Your first server takeover"
16:42 * tenplus1 sounds like Samuel L Jackson
16:44 benrob0329 We could have a voice over audition thingy
16:47 sofar Calinou: XD
17:39 Jordach Calinou, needs to finish with the intel inside jingle
17:40 tenplus1 lol
17:42 sofar I'm sure I could coax some of the Intel Studio folks to do that, they're one floor away from where I sit
17:42 Jordach lmao
17:42 Jordach if there's ever a minetest subway announcer
17:43 Jordach it needs to be specifically sofar with the intel jingle
17:43 sofar hey, if it gets me paid
17:43 sofar I can replace Jim Parsons
17:43 Jordach at least Minetest isn't a citrix supporter
17:43 IhrFussel Okay so I just found out and can confirm that the time the server takes to reset forbidden nodes that were dug client-side depends ENTIRELY on the tick rate
17:44 Jordach >tick rate
17:44 Jordach MT doesn't have ticks
17:44 Jordach it's all delta time
17:44 Jordach afaik
17:44 sfan5 they are called server steps
17:45 tenplus1 so mc has clock ticks whereas mt has steps per second ?
17:45 IhrFussel ticks/server steps are the same...but I just set my server to 2 second steps and I can confirm that it indeed takes up to 2 seconds before furnaces with meta re-appear after I dug them
17:45 ThomasMonroe how do i get a technic geothermal generator running at 100%?
17:45 tenplus1 eek
17:46 IhrFussel So that is the SOURCE of the glitch problem...the server only updates dug nodes on STEPS
17:47 IhrFussel Or at least the ones that need to be reset
17:49 IhrFussel I invite anyone who doesn't believe it to my server...it is set to exactly 2.0 sec steps right now ... I can give you a pick axe and you try to remove the furnace...you will see it only checks each server step for the removal
17:49 tenplus1 why did you set step to 2.0 ?
17:49 sfan5 the check is instant
17:49 sfan5 block sending seems to be just each step
17:51 IhrFussel tenplus1, to confirm this behavior?
17:52 IhrFussel Then block sending is the problem...the engine should have a flag for "forbidden removal" and if that flag is set the engine will send this block back immediately
17:54 IhrFussel My point is that even with 0.1 sec steps players can glitch through the dug nodes because the server only sends the mapblocks once per step
17:55 Calinou tenplus1: Minetest runs at 10 Hz steps by default (Minecraft always has been 20 Hz)
17:56 Calinou IhrFussel: I don't think resetting nodes between steps is ever going to be possible
17:56 sniper338 joined #minetest-hub
17:56 Calinou IhrFussel: also, node digging prediction can now be changed (in 0.5.0), so you can make a node undiggable
17:56 tenplus1 that's fine by me :) 10hz isnt that bad... it's what we do in that time which helps
17:56 Calinou (and avoid prediction issues)
17:56 tenplus1 *counts
17:56 Calinou tenplus1: it's actually bad, 20 Hz would be much better already, just look at other players moving
17:56 Calinou modern games use 30 Hz at least, often 40 Hz
17:56 Calinou 20 Hz is what Quake 3 used, almost 18 years ago :)
17:57 tenplus1 coudl we increase that for player functions ?
17:57 Calinou yes, `dedicated_server_step = 0.05`
17:57 tenplus1 or would that slow things down too much ?
17:57 Calinou if you have a decent server (and not too many players), it's doable already
17:57 IhrFussel Calinou, why wouldn't it be possible? The "node shouldn't be dug" check is in realtime too
17:57 tenplus1 what's the step value in singleplayer ? that's always smooth
17:57 IhrFussel 0.1 secs
17:57 Calinou IhrFussel: do you mean that, if you send a chat message to the client when they try to dig a forbidden node, they receive the message immediately?
17:58 Calinou tenplus1: in singleplayer, it's actually as fast as it can be, it seems… I'm not sure
17:58 Calinou this is why carbone_mobs jump higher in singleplayer than on a dedicated server
17:58 Calinou (last time I tested this was like 3 years ago, though)
17:58 IhrFussel No but faster than after 100ms for sure...not every human has a bad ping (>100ms)
17:59 IhrFussel Also what IF the server has constantly higher server step times cause of internal lag?
17:59 IhrFussel It's not okay to let players dig anything in between server steps
17:59 tenplus1 lag wouldnt affect step times themselves I dont think, only the functions in operation.. might skip a few yes
17:59 srifqi joined #minetest-hub
17:59 tenplus1 hi srifqi
18:00 srifqi hi tenplus1
18:00 Shara Hello everyone
18:00 IhrFussel tenplus1, dtime is server step time right? And the dtime can be higher than the dedicated_server_step setting 100%
18:01 srifqi Hello Shara
18:01 tenplus1 hi shara
18:01 IhrFussel I will set my server step to normal in a few minutes again...so if anyone still wants to FEEL the issue about updating mapblocks on each step join it
18:02 tenplus1 fussel, yes... dtime is server step, but if a function cannot complete within that server step it usually skips the next until it's done... that can cause lag feel
18:02 IhrFussel On a loaded server with many mods the server step time can exceed the set setting A LOT
18:03 IhrFussel Or I can probably upload a GIF demonstrating it
18:05 tenplus1 what mods you got active so far ?
18:08 nerzhul joined #minetest-hub
18:08 tenplus1 hi nrz
18:09 rubenwardy IhrFussel, it depends on the tick rate because that's literally when the server reads/handles packets
18:09 rubenwardy it's not possible to change this by definition
18:10 rubenwardy unless you split the server step up into multiple steps
18:10 rubenwardy which would probably be painful
18:11 nerzhul rubenwardy, in my network rework i simplify a little bit that server part, but really, it's not the CPU consuming part, it's marginal
18:11 nerzhul except if server has long server steps, you will have some lag by definition due to the fact you don't have the pseudo pause between async steps to handle packets
18:12 nerzhul i will try to let the session state packet checking in the network receiver
18:13 nerzhul but it's a marginal test
18:19 IhrFussel rubenwardy, that doesn't change the fact that this delay is the source of glitching through nodes
18:20 rubenwardy don't use a interval of 2 seconds
18:20 rubenwardy done#
18:20 IhrFussel NO even with 0.1 secs it's possible
18:20 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
18:20 IhrFussel You just need to have some luck
18:20 tenplus1 if you wanna stop players glitching through nodes use Protector Redo and add the setting:   protector.flip = true    to minetest.conf
18:20 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
18:20 tenplus1 then any protected areas are save
18:20 tenplus1 *safe
18:21 IhrFussel You should make it possible to send "dangerous" mapblocks in between steps
18:21 rubenwardy that simply will never be possible
18:21 Shara ten, not everyone wants to play on a server that does that
18:21 rubenwardy also, network latency varies
18:21 tenplus1 it's only an option that would help
18:22 IhrFussel Network latency is not as high as 100ms for most people
18:22 Shara Just saying, because it's not an option you should add without realising how much it can annoy players who did nothing wrong
18:24 Calinou IhrFussel: the usefulness of increased tick rates does not depend on your ping
18:24 Calinou if you have 25 ms ping, it's useful to increase the tick rate, just like if you have 130 ms
18:24 Calinou IhrFussel: it is as high as 100 ms for me in lots of cases
18:24 nerzhul latency is generally 25-50 ms in the same geographical area (europe, asia, etc)
18:25 Calinou (Russian servers, US servers)
18:25 Calinou and 4G connections are unstable, and often can get your ping above 100 ms
18:25 IhrFussel My point is that players will EASILY glitch through nodes as long as the server only updates mapblocks per step and NOT in realtime
18:25 rubenwardy if you separate network step and server step, then you could respond quicker
18:25 Calinou nerzhul: yeah, but sometimes I'm forced to play on non-EU servers :P
18:25 Calinou I never play Quake 2 on EU servers, for example :(
18:25 Calinou the active FFA servers are in Russia (95-105 ms ping) and the US (140-160 ms ping)
18:26 Calinou and that game really doesn't like high pings, most active players have < 30 ms
18:26 Calinou (many have 5-10 ms)
18:26 Calinou https://media.hugo.pro/explo​rer_2017-09-26_13-25-15.png
18:26 nerzhul network and server steps are already splited
18:26 IhrFussel The mapblock update speed shouldn't depend on tick rate IMO ... it is a disadvantage on servers with higher avg lag
18:26 nerzhul server receive a packet to preperly deserialize for server usage
18:26 nerzhul but as i said, lag is not there
18:27 nerzhul lag is in Server step and generally Lua mod usage which is too heave for a single server step
18:27 rubenwardy nerzhul, he's talking about latency not lag
18:27 rubenwardy the server waits until the next server step to respond to digs
18:27 IhrFussel I'm talking about internal server lag that raises the max_lag value in /status for example
18:27 sfan5 nerzhul: blocks are instantly set as non-sent in the network handling code but SendBlocks() is called in the AsyncServerStep
18:28 rubenwardy surely the server has the ability to send a single block?
18:28 rubenwardy oops
18:28 rubenwardy node
18:28 sfan5 and that server step is only supposed to run each dedicated_server_step
18:28 sfan5 rubenwardy: smallest sendable unit is block
18:28 Calinou oh, also, looks like the Lag value on the server list is close to the dedicated_server_step in milliseconds, for most servers
18:28 Calinou http://servers.minetest.net/
18:28 Calinou most servers are at 100, mine is at 33 (30 Hz tick rate)
18:29 sfan5 Calinou: m_lag defaults to g_settings->getFloat("dedicated_server_step")
18:29 Calinou oh, nice
18:29 sfan5 and only increases if the server takes too long for a single step (?)
18:29 Calinou this means we can see dedicated server steps on the list :)
18:29 Calinou there's a server at 1341, another at 1149
18:29 Calinou one at 399, too
18:30 rubenwardy So, no single node sending, no spatial partitioning of entities
18:30 sfan5 lag = dedicated_server_step only if the server has been empty for some time
18:30 rubenwardy great :/
18:30 sofar ...netem delay...
18:33 sfan5 rubenwardy: sending single nodes is a bunch of extra code on both server and client while blocks are just "pretend that this one was not sent yet"
18:34 IhrFussel Ok not sure what went wrong there, I tried to optimize the GIF a bit and it looks very messed up...you can still see how long the node takes before it comes back https://i.imgur.com/9gYwxVa.gif
18:35 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
18:35 tenplus1 wb Megaf
18:37 IhrFussel That was with server step 2.0 ... of course it comes back wayyy faster with 0.1 steps BUT no server is guaranteed to have 0.1 steps
18:38 IhrFussel Players can basically abuse the internal server lag caused by mods to glitch through nodes...do you think that's good?
18:39 IhrFussel So if a player wants to break through a certain protected wall they just need some nodes that cause heavy server load (like mesecons)
18:41 IhrFussel Ok "some" isn't enough probably...but there are way heavier nodes than mesecons on some servers...and server owners with many mods (like me) are screwed cause our servers are more prone to have more internal lag which means players can glitch easier
18:43 tenplus1 when you run your server at normal step, what's the usual lag time ?
18:44 Megaf Thanks
18:46 IhrFussel tenplus1, I made a mod that logs the lag values each minute https://pastebin.com/TrBYFn7e
18:47 tenplus1 0.2 lag isnt too bad for a server
18:48 IhrFussel That is with 4 players online right now...when there are 10+ it spikes up to 5 secs and avg can go up to 0.4
18:49 tenplus1 k, so what mods do you have that are player intensive ?
18:50 IhrFussel But the way the server handles block sends right now makes sure that servers with more avg lag have a disadvantage regarding players that try to glitch through nodes
18:50 IhrFussel the engine handles*
18:51 IhrFussel I have lots of intensive mods and I know that my server exceeds the set step time a lot...but I simply wanted to confirm here that the source of the whole "players glitch through nodes" problem is the way the blocks are sent
18:53 IhrFussel And it's kinda not fair that servers with less mods/less avg lag can defend themselves better against node glitchers
18:53 tenplus1 we do what we can until such problems are ironed out
18:58 IhrFussel Also another issue I observed: The server seems toi ignore the server_step setting when you set up a local server... I set my local server to 2.0 secs and max_lag was 0.1
18:59 IhrFussel I mean I set 2.0 in advanced settings before hosting the server*
19:03 nerzhul Calinou, mine is as 10hz :)
19:03 nerzhul 25hz*
19:03 nerzhul with 10 players
19:04 nerzhul but lua part has been moved to C++ code haha
19:04 nerzhul for block sending code it should be synced with server step, and it's sent as soon as it's ready
19:04 nerzhul no sense to have that outside of server step because blocks are instanly pushed to network packet sending queue in sending thread
19:04 nerzhul it's not the problem
19:05 nerzhul the map loading problem is due to gz algorithm which take 30% time in gz un-gz
19:05 nerzhul (30% CPU time)
19:06 IhrFussel nerzhul, it is the source of the issue when the server step takes too long which is very common on loaded servers
19:09 IhrFussel Maybe it would be possible to send a request to the server after digging the node and not letting the player move through the "empty" position until the server checked and sent its OK
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19:11 IhrFussel That would look a bit weird on servers with higher lag values though (standing in front of invisible walls)
19:13 tenplus1 Inventory Plus updated, new vertical centering of menu, code tweak & tidy: https://github.com/tenplus1/inventory_plus
19:13 IhrFussel Or maybe it's possible to send the "protected nodes" info to the client when such a mapblock gets sent and the client then cancels thge digging if the server told it to not allow the position
19:14 IhrFussel That way only hacked clients could glitch through nodes at least
19:15 nerzhul IhrFussel, then optimize you code, that's all
19:16 nerzhul lua has some drawbacks but core cannot fix your mods performance
19:16 IhrFussel So you basically discourage loaded servers
19:17 IhrFussel By saying "if your average lag is high fix your mods"
19:18 tenplus1 Xanadu is a loaded server.  we have all manners of mods running and on a good day with 35 players active the lag hits around 0.9
19:18 tenplus1 that aint bad
19:18 IhrFussel You probably don't log the lag per minute
19:18 IhrFussel I'm pretty sure it would be different if you did
19:18 tenplus1 I sit and watch server stats as they happen
19:19 IhrFussel BUt likely not for hours
19:19 tenplus1 depends how bored I am :)
19:20 IhrFussel Regardless the server lag depends on many things and it's kinda not right to tell us server owners to "optimize" our mods...you know there is a point where a certain mod CANNOT be optimized anymore
19:21 tenplus1 the only other option is to learn c++ and see what's slowing engine down when digging nodes and make suggestions
19:21 IhrFussel Many mods cause less/more load depending on how many players are in a certain area or how many heavy nodes are loaded in RAM right now...this is nothing the server owner can control
19:23 IhrFussel tenplus1, we already know the source of the problem: The server only sends the updated mapblocks ONCE per step...if a step takes longer than usual players still see the changed mapblock on their screen and can walk through
19:25 tenplus1 add an issue to increase map sending to server step and load map into ram to handle it
19:26 IhrFussel rubenwardy said this cannot be changed so it's a fact that loaded servers have more problem with people whgo glitch through nodes...that is a fact
19:26 nerzhul server loop is server loop, with MTG server loop is very lightweight, if you server is laggy it's due to mods
19:26 tenplus1 there are solutions fussel
19:27 tenplus1 like I mentioned earier I use Protector Redo with the flip switch active... anyone trying to glitch through a wall cannot cause they get spun around and stopped (not for everyone)
19:28 IhrFussel nerzhul, what if my server needs all those mods and I already optimized them a lot?? You are telling us server owners to have less (heavy) mods but won't try to solve the ACTUAL block send problem
19:28 tenplus1 is your server up and active just now fussel ? may I join ?
19:29 IhrFussel It is up but the lag you'd experience now is not the same compared to when 10+ players are connected
19:29 tenplus1 that's ok
19:29 tenplus1 what's the name/ip/port ?
19:30 tenplus1 found it
19:30 IhrFussel Search IFS
19:30 rubenwardy what database backend do you use, and what specs?
19:30 rubenwardy have you looked into hard drive usage to make sure it's not saturating?
19:31 IhrFussel Only 2 now online...okay the lag will be basically zero now ... I use sqlite..specs..one sec
19:31 rubenwardy sqlite isn't great for performance, especially for big worlds
19:31 Shara Works fine on RC.
19:31 rubenwardy Shara's server managed fine though
19:31 rubenwardy lol
19:31 Shara :D
19:32 rubenwardy do you have an SSD?
19:32 Shara Yes
19:32 rubenwardy that would help a lot with perfomance :D
19:32 Shara I've optimised my mods in way sa survival server can't though
19:32 Shara ways*
19:32 Shara Running a creative can have advantages
19:34 tenplus1 just from what I can see, biomed_lib, playeranim, playerlight can slow down things already
19:34 IhrFussel rubenwardy, http://ihrfussels-server.tk/specs.html
19:34 tenplus1 hud_hunger and stamina do the same thing... double mod
19:34 Shara biome_lib hits heavy. I got huge performances increases when I cut down on what it (and moretrees) were doing
19:35 tenplus1 mesecons in itself is slow on servers, and quests checks what player digs/crafts for quest items
19:35 rubenwardy what's the clock speed? It says 200MHz, but that can't be right
19:35 rubenwardy maybe it's the "capacity" which is 2.5MHz
19:36 rubenwardy you have a hard drive, which won't help
19:37 rubenwardy hmmm, would be good to have a tool to measure how much time is spent on database I/O
19:37 rubenwardy I guess you could just see how close R/W is to max usage
19:38 tenplus1 also, what are you running server on ? windows or linux ?
19:39 IhrFussel Ubuntu 16.04
19:39 tenplus1 kewl, do you have noatime set for drives ? that increases drive access speeds
19:43 sofar abms will kill you
19:46 Calinou tenplus1: not really
19:46 Calinou noatime is a microoptimization that can break things
19:46 tenplus1 all it does is stop writing last access times, which does speed up Os
19:47 tenplus1 I've used that for many years and it has helped
19:48 tenplus1 ooh, I got kicked
19:50 IhrFussel No internet for 30 secs? xP
19:51 tenplus1 what happened ?
19:51 IhrFussel It said "lost the connection" which means timeout
19:53 tenplus1 weird... I definitely didnt time out
19:54 IhrFussel What did it say on your end?
19:54 tenplus1 nothing, server just disconnected
19:55 IhrFussel Log says [Server]: TenPlus1 lost the connection to the server.
19:55 IhrFussel [Server]: Himawari lost the connection to the server.
19:56 Raven262 joined #minetest-hub
20:06 tenplus1 ntie all o/
20:06 tenplus1 left #minetest-hub
20:15 nerzhul rubenwardy, i'm using postgresql and i have SCSI HDD, and it's not problematic, because pg properly handle IO on disk and ZFS too
20:15 nerzhul noatime doesn't break anythin Calinou don't tell shit
20:15 nerzhul the access time is never used
20:15 Calinou it's more of a convenience thing indeed
20:15 nerzhul it's only for auditing filesystem, and... nobody use that :)
20:15 Calinou yes, rarely useful
20:16 nerzhul atime is disable on my whole server farms at work since age, this is not a problem, modification time is more interesting and sometimes ctime
20:21 nerzhul https://pbs.twimg.com/media​/DK4GbCMXkAAWt0w.jpg:large haha
20:30 IhrFussel nerzhul, can I set noatime during runtime? My dedi has no 2nd HDD
20:31 nerzhul mount -o remount,noatime <device>
20:32 sfan5 or mount -o remount,noatime - <mountpoint>
20:37 IhrFussel How do I find the device? It's not sda
20:39 sfan5 lsblk
20:39 sofar stat -f /
20:39 * sofar giggles
20:40 IhrFussel Too many options xo https://pastebin.com/VjwsPMcK
20:40 nerzhul mount
20:41 nerzhul or df -h
20:41 IhrFussel Maybe it is sda after all?
20:41 sfan5 IhrFussel: as you can see there /dev/md1 is mounted on /
20:42 IhrFussel So the device is the partition not the whole HDD?
20:45 Calinou nerzhul: reminds me of the Doom ending pictures :P
20:48 sofar md1   9:1    0   461G  0 raid1 /
20:48 sofar that's your root dev
20:50 IhrFussel So mount -o remount,noatime /dev/md1 or just  mount -o remount,noatime md1? And will the command interrupt all running processes?
20:53 sofar remounts are instant
20:53 sofar no downtime/impact to applications
20:53 sofar mount -o remount,noatime /dev/md1
20:56 rubenwardy > need to use Maya for uni
20:56 rubenwardy > only supports CentHat
20:56 rubenwardy :/
20:57 sofar put maya in blender
20:57 sofar turn on blender
20:57 sofar willitblend?
20:58 rubenwardy what's the chance that alien (RPM -
20:58 IhrFussel sofar, I can run it WHILE the MT server process is running? No danger of corruption?
20:58 rubenwardy what's the chance that alien (RPM -> deb conversion) won't cause problems
20:59 Calinou <rubenwardy> > only supports CentHat
20:59 Calinou Allegorithmic software also only officially supports CentOS
20:59 Calinou but, in practice, it works on Ubuntu, it works on Arch Linux…
20:59 Calinou (there's even an AUR package)
21:00 rubenwardy how does the speed of torrenting OSes compare to direct download?
21:02 sfan5 if you have a good mirror torrenting isn't going to be any faster
21:03 Calinou https://github.com/lllyasviel/style2paints
21:03 Calinou [insert sfan5 heavy breathing here]
21:07 sfan5 🤔
21:08 sofar IhrFussel: yes, noatime is not a "dangerous" option anyway
21:08 sofar IhrFussel: remounts are always safe. If they would be unsafe, you'd get an error (remount not possible)
21:08 IhrFussel Will I have to run it after each reboot again?
21:08 sofar just add the option in /etc/fstab instead
21:08 sofar then it'll be done every boot
21:09 bigfoot547 I noticed that nodeupdate has been removed. Is there anything to replace it with?
21:09 bigfoot547 Or just not use it?
21:09 sofar rubenwardy: torrents just save you the hassle of finding the right mirror, essentially
21:09 sofar rubenwardy: so they're actually nice
21:09 sofar check_for_falling
21:09 bigfoot547 sofar: and same args?
21:09 sofar https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L2803
21:10 bigfoot547 Thanx :)
21:10 sofar NEXT
21:10 bigfoot547 It wasn't updated on dev.minetest.net :/
21:10 bigfoot547 sofar: lol :D
21:10 IhrFussel sofar, "/dev/md1        /       ext4    defaults        1       1" replace defaults with noatime ?
21:11 sofar IhrFussel: you're getting the hang of this, yes
21:11 sofar also "defaults,noatime" actually works
21:52 Aerozoic joined #minetest-hub
22:23 bigfoot547 May I enlist some help building spawn on my minetest server?
22:24 bigfoot547 And the server is on minetest master, built yesterday
22:34 rubenwardy success! https://i.rubenwardy.com/EQYAdacEhd.png
22:34 rubenwardy Calinou, much pain was involved
22:44 rubenwardy argh, it segfaults
22:47 sofar I asked if it blends, not segfaults :/
22:47 sofar that sucks
22:59 Jordach sofar, lmao
23:00 rubenwardy well, might have to drop that course
23:01 Jordach go install windows like the rest of the working world /s
23:02 rubenwardy /kick Jordach nope
23:02 rubenwardy :P
23:02 rubenwardy Windows is honestly awful, I'm so glad it's gone completely from my laptop
23:03 rubenwardy when your operating system takes 2 minutes to open a right click context menu, you know something's wrong
23:03 rubenwardy on a brand new okay laptop (2.7GHz i5)
23:04 Jordach >not using an SSD in 2017
23:04 Jordach >at least SATA3 or M.2
23:04 rubenwardy I shouldn't need an SSD to load a context menu
23:04 rubenwardy I shouldn't need an SSD unless I'm doing gaming/video editing/etc
23:05 rubenwardy I shouldn't need to buy a gaming PC / high end laptop just to right click and rename a file
23:13 * Jordach considers getting a hp specter
23:13 Jordach wallet nooooooooo
23:13 rubenwardy I mean, that could just be a combination of Windows 10 and ASUS
23:13 Jordach >has asus mobo
23:13 Jordach >no problem
23:15 Jordach either that or i just upgrade to the latest surface pro
23:41 rubenwardy omg, it's fixed!
23:47 Jordach rubenwardy, https://i.redd.it/ehh9vdbzstoz.png BTFO
23:52 Jordach sofar, no intel inside jingle to start the video /s
23:53 Jordach i wouldn't mind an intel sponsored electronics focused puzzle box
23:53 Jordach complete with voltages, resistances, etc
23:53 Jordach and as a standalone thing
23:53 sofar I've had that idea for a mod for a while
23:54 sofar I'd do it with semiconductors, too
23:54 sofar so you can emulate an actual transistor
23:54 Jordach mmmmmmm
23:55 Jordach >weeks later: i soldered an Atom to this breadboard and it functions as a fully working AR device

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