Time Nick Message 09:07 lisac Hey everyone maybe we could port Minetest into PowerPoint 09:07 lisac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjxe8ShM-8 10:15 Raven262 Sokomine, I finished the new textures, check out the forum post. 10:41 IhrFussel So am I right with the assumption that 2 mods CANNOT depend on each other at the same time? 10:42 IhrFussel It seems that's the case... I added "mobs" as dependency in my exp mod and "exp" as dependency in mobs/depends.txt ... and neither will load now 10:46 IhrFussel As soon as I remove my exp mod from the mobs dependencies both mods will load again 10:52 IhrFussel Seems like a major design flaw to me 11:02 IhrFussel Now I have to integrate my exp mod as a lua file inside the mobs mod -.- 11:06 Raven262 What did Calinou to moreblocks and stairsplus, stairsplus is inside moreblocks, maybe something like that would fix it, IhrFussel :P 11:08 IhrFussel Raven262, it's a modpack I think...so you mean changing mobs mod into a modpack and move my mod to it? 11:09 Raven262 wait, it was something different 11:09 Raven262 Yes modpack will probalby solve it 11:09 Raven262 But moreblocks has a mod inside a mod 11:09 Raven262 idk how he did it though 11:09 Raven262 In modpack mods usually depend on each other 11:10 Raven262 that is possibly a workaround that bug that you've got 11:11 IhrFussel It doesn't matter now I already changed all exp tables to mobs and moved my init.lua code to exp.lua in mobs/ 11:11 Raven262 Well, it will work anyway :P 11:12 IhrFussel I should be able to use the global table "mobs" from init.lua in my exp.lua right? 11:13 Raven262 Of course 11:13 Raven262 Why not? 11:14 Raven262 Its global, afaik it can be loaded from anywhere 12:13 IhrFussel But regarding my design flaw comment: I'm guessing right now the engine does NOT wait until all mod names are known and THEN compares the dependencies of them 12:14 IhrFussel But it should wait until no names are left and THEN check if mod x inside mod y depends.txt exists and mod y inside mod x depends.txt exists 12:42 Raven262 Calinou, Do you have a Nexuiz server too? 12:42 Calinou no, Nexuiz is dead 12:42 Raven262 Damn 12:42 Raven262 Xonotic then? 12:56 KaadmY Xonotic <3 12:57 Raven262 I'm gonna install it now 13:13 Raven262 IhrFussel, you there? 13:14 Raven262 Ah no matter, found a solution. 13:14 Raven262 Sorry for pinging. 13:15 IhrFussel Raven262, I'm there now xP 13:15 Raven262 Okay, what the teleport request command on your server? xD 13:15 Raven262 My brother has joined and leveled to 10 13:16 Raven262 He wants to come to my dungeon 13:17 IhrFussel I made it as accessible as possible...you can use common commands used for tp in Minetest /teleport, /tp or /tpr 13:17 Raven262 Okay 13:19 IhrFussel is your bother h... ? 13:22 Raven262 Yea 14:12 lisac is swearing against the rules, IhrFussel? 14:12 lisac sorry :( 14:13 IhrFussel Not exactly swearing but "fucker" triggered the "check for insult" code 14:14 IhrFussel "fuck" wouldn't kick you for example 14:14 IhrFussel "fuck you" would again 14:17 Shara Hello all 14:17 lisac hey Shara 14:17 Shara Hi lisac :) 14:24 Raven262 Hello Shara 14:25 twoelk hm, chequered insults - might look interesting 14:27 * twoelk wonders wether this counts as 14:31 twoelk so an insult chequered server might be plaid on 14:34 * twoelk tries to focus on calculating some ventilation duct sizes again 14:53 * red-001 wonders whu 14:53 red-001 why* 15:18 * nerzhul wonderwhuman 15:20 Krock o/ 15:27 benrob0329 Having to use my old tablet since my phone screen broke, it holds up rather well 15:28 benrob0329 Some things are kinda slow 15:29 benrob0329 But after turning off all animations, and forcing GPU rendering, and rooting it, removing apps, and turning off stuff at boot, it runs good for most things 15:36 Krock tried installing gentoo yet? 15:36 Krock ^ benrob0329 15:37 benrob0329 Krock: would need android display server 15:43 Krock benrob0329, I was just kidding ;) 15:46 benrob0329 Krock: well, ive actually thought about it so...XD 16:55 shivajiva I see raymoo is willing to create and distribute modified clients when the project doesn't meet his approval...interesting attitude... 17:21 Shara Seems like he backed down and was just trying to teach us some kind of (very unneeded and unwanted) lesson 17:38 nore could we just close this issue please? there is *absolutely no way* to do that, none at all 17:39 Shara nore: the precise suggestion of the issue aside, is there really nothing at all that can be done to limit the problems we're having in some way? 17:39 nore Shara: server-side cheat detection 17:40 Shara but that doesnt seem to be happening 17:40 nore you *have* to assume the clients are untrustworthy, because there is not way you can assume they are 17:40 nore yeah, well, it is complicated 17:40 Shara as I've posted in the issue, I just want a solution 17:40 Shara I dont want this specific one, but it's all that is being put forward 17:41 nore but the energy should be put into server-side cheat detection instead into verifying that the client has not been modified, because it is not possible 17:41 Shara Is there any chance of seeing progress on that then? 17:41 nore whatever you try to do, it is trivial to just change the source code to fake an official client 17:42 nore well, I hope so - but not from me for now, as I'm not coding mt stuff at the moment 17:42 Shara we see lots of new things, like CSM, which though great opens up more issues... and very little work done on security 17:43 Shara and a lot of server owners are unhappy about this 17:44 Shara I have actually had to prevent new players joining one of my servers because of this. 17:45 Shara I try to open the server to new players again every time I can, but even then I've had a couple get through who made problems 17:46 Shara One idiot with a "hacked" client and the ability to change IP address can pretty much hold a server hostage as it stands 18:13 garywhite What's all this then? (I was on another network, joined mid-conversation, so I only have about 20 lines scrollback) 18:14 Shara gary, you can check the log like anyone 18:14 garywhite right, I forgot about the log. 18:16 garywhite who is raymoo? 18:17 sofar There are many ways to defeat 'oredetect' btw 18:17 sofar same with csm chat mods 18:17 sofar just rate limit messages and kick when a client sends 2 messages within 1 second 18:17 sofar heck, IRC even does that 18:18 rubenwardy rate limiting is already implemented 18:18 sofar what actually is the biggest problem ? 18:19 Shara for me, people able to give themselves fly/noclip and to avoid damage 18:19 sofar that should be detectable server-side 18:19 sofar so let's work on a solution that covers that 18:20 sofar any player that has a vertical velocity of 0 for more than 2 server ticks and isn't standing on a node is cheating 18:20 Shara any solution is good by me 18:21 Shara so long as it works and doesnt put too much strain on the server 18:21 Shara The server in question is a PVP server, and people are using these things to get an unfair advantage 18:21 Shara Like noclipping through walls to attack people who thought they were safe, and so on 18:22 garywhite Not more hackers 18:22 Calinou One idiot with a "hacked" client and the ability to change IP address can pretty much hold a server hostage as it stands 18:23 Calinou a Minecraft server I played on (and a Sauerbraten server) had a way to detect VPNs fairly reliably 18:23 Calinou (including self-hosted ones on rented VPSes) 18:23 Calinou https://github.com/pisto/ASkidban 18:23 sofar detecting VPNs should be doable 18:23 sofar but it would require some more work 18:24 Shara I'm less worried about the ban dodgers if they cant do the other things 18:25 sofar Calinou: entirely feasible to build that with mods & external services 18:25 sofar you can do a lot more with minetest even 18:36 Hijiri sofar: what if a player is lagging and doesn't send updates in time 18:37 Hijiri also should note that "vertical velocity" can't come from get_player_velocity because that can be faked 18:37 red-001 Hijiri, then they have bad luck? 18:38 Hijiri red-001: you shouldn't be banned for bad luck 18:38 Hijiri though I guess nobody said ban 18:38 Hijiri could just notify admins 18:38 red-001 just kick them or something 18:38 red-001 they didn't have a good connection anyway 18:38 Hijiri it could have been a lag spike 18:39 Hijiri what if the player is jumping over lava or something and they get saved over lava 18:39 red-001 can't help it 18:39 Hijiri you can help it by not kicking 18:39 red-001 either you get anticheat with some false positives or no anticheat 18:39 Hijiri you can notify a mod to look at the user 18:40 red-001 that's just how life is 18:40 Hijiri A better way to detect would be to only try to detect fliers in motion 18:40 Hijiri flying is not useful unless you are moving so that is good enough 18:40 Hijiri well, unless you were moving at some point 18:41 red-001 I say it's very much useful without moving 18:41 red-001 think falling 18:41 Hijiri yes, but you could do that with the "0 vertical velocity" check too 18:41 Hijiri just release fly before you stop completely 18:42 sofar client lag is known, btw 18:42 sofar you could account for it 18:43 Hijiri isn't that average lag? 18:43 sofar averages are calculated by what? 18:43 Hijiri I guess if it's in the engine you could wait for packets to arrive 18:43 Hijiri sofar: I don't know, maybe a running average is kept of packet latencies? 18:44 sofar exactly, there is raw data somewhere 18:44 Hijiri Why not just wait for the next movement update then, instead of 2 ticks or whatever 18:44 Hijiri you won't know how much a player lagged on a particular update until that update arrives 18:44 sofar what if a player is hovering in a spot? 18:45 sofar but sure 18:45 Hijiri They should still be sending updates if not lagging, right? 18:45 Hijiri IF lagging, you can't tell if they are hovering or falling whil lagging 18:45 sofar no movement -> no updates I think 18:45 Hijiri really? I didn't know, but I guess that makes sense 18:45 Hijiri So how would you distinguish someone who is lagging while falling from someone hovering with fly 18:51 Shara I'd prefer it not to be an auto ban, just for something to happen to make the actually cheating itself pointless, if possible 18:52 Shara Like, fast is already kind of dealt with in a way that makes it annoying to cheat for 18:53 lisac hey why not force the player to land if they are in open air for more than 5 seconds? 18:53 lisac cheater would have to go up down up down 18:53 lisac and legitimate players wouldn't get stuck in air 18:53 Shara they could still noclip through a wall in that time 18:53 Shara that's the main issue for me, more than fly itself 18:54 Shara though the damage avoidance is worse again 18:55 Shara Thankfully that seems far rarer than fly/noclip though 18:58 lisac maybe check every second if player is inside a node, then record it? 18:58 lisac don't punish the player for one time, but if he is in node a couple of times, like 3, he gets punished? 18:58 lisac that way, players stuck due to lag don't get punished 18:58 sofar kill the player 18:59 * lisac > Amon Amarth - The Fate Of Norns - [ Fate Of Norns #3 ] - [ 04:24 / 05:57 ] 18:59 sofar prevent resurrecting for 15 seconds 18:59 sofar second time, 1 minute 18:59 sofar third time, 15 minutes 18:59 sofar if they log off while dead, ban them for 4 hours 19:00 * lisac > Amon Amarth - The Fate Of Norns - [ Fate Of Norns #3 ] - [ 05:27 / 05:57 ] 19:00 lisac awesome 19:00 Krock final repost before leaving: https://i.redd.it/fjcv9evg6u8z.png we should use this code. looks advanced. 19:00 lisac moment 19:01 lisac my script got triggered on NOWPLAYING2 19:01 lisac CTCP 19:01 lisac but instead of sending it to the right channel, it sent it to whatever channel I was in 19:01 lisac Krock, we can beat that record 19:02 Krock yes, luckily github has a large file feature ... somehow 19:02 KaadmY Git doesn't support files larger than 500mb IIRC 19:02 KaadmY Github has a special thing for those 19:06 lisac maybe we could remove mapgens and keep a few fully generated maps in the repo 19:06 lisac that should beat the record by a couple TB 19:06 lisac fully generated, ex. 32 000 all directions 20:54 Jordach >gets AKG monitors 20:54 Jordach hnnnnnng 20:57 Megaf hm 20:57 Megaf I'm happy with my SONY 20:57 Megaf wait 20:57 Megaf monitor as in audio monitor? As in speaker 20:59 Megaf Jordach: I got these https://proclockers.com/reviews/audio/genius-sp-hf800a-3-way-wood-speakers 21:00 Megaf And they are actually good 21:00 Jordach Megaf, AKG K271 MKII 21:00 Megaf oh 21:00 Megaf headphone monitors 21:01 Megaf I got this one http://www.philips.co.uk/c-p/SHL5800_10/headband-headphones/specifications 21:01 Megaf Frequency response 21:01 Megaf 10–28,000 Hz 21:02 Jordach LUL 21:02 Megaf I used the AKG already 21:02 Jordach it's not the HZ range, its the reproductional ability 21:02 Megaf but I hate it how it feels 21:04 Megaf Jordach: your headphone and mine are similar in specifications tho 21:05 Megaf yours is louder tho 21:05 Megaf but mine are already loud enough to make my ears bleed 21:08 Fixer gonna make a moove? https://github.com/minetest-mods/moreblocks/pull/79