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IRC log for #minetest-hub, 2017-04-14

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 Fixer sofar: now do CSM version of skybox %)
00:01 Fixer sofar: i like it
00:02 Fixer https://i.imgur.com/Wk9599A.jpg
00:02 Fixer damn it is good
00:02 Fixer so good
00:05 Fixer https://i.imgur.com/sVwmOOP.jpg :O
00:05 Fixer add ambience to this and get a top f-ing win
00:08 Fixer good night everyone
00:09 * VanessaE throws up her hands in frustration.  I give up!  Technic is too complicated for me to fix any more :(
00:09 * Jordach_ gives VanessaE a hug
00:09 * Jordach_ understands
00:11 VanessaE with all due respect as appropriate, technic's codebase sucks.  it's impossible to understand, scattered across too many files, terribly organized, and 1000x more complicated than it needs to be
00:11 VanessaE nore: enjoy. :P
00:11 * Jordach_ isn't re-writing that
00:11 * nore is ^^'
00:24 * Jordach_ performs the solar plains art pass on RBA's water texture
00:25 Jordach_ https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game​/blob/master/mods/default/README.txt#L40
00:47 benrob0329 Hello
00:55 Jordach_ wat ze fak
00:55 Jordach_ _OnGenerated(): not enough memory
00:55 Jordach_ 2017-04-14 01:55:13: ERROR[Main]: Current Lua memory usage: 9 MB
00:55 Jordach_ >9MB
00:57 Jordach_ FFFFFFF
00:57 Jordach_ 2017-04-14 01:57:32: ERROR[Main]: Current Lua memory usage: 3 MB
00:57 Jordach_ GC64 WEN
01:00 benrob0329 What is this, 1994?
01:00 Jordach_ sofar, https://jordach.net/Images/Screensh​ots/screenshot_20170414_015939.png
01:00 Jordach_ shits fire yo
01:00 Jordach_ there's a few texture revisions to the trees
01:01 benrob0329 O_O
01:01 Jordach_ overkill or underkill
01:01 * benrob0329 wishes he was home to do a cinematic video now
01:01 Jordach_ dirt, grass, grass side, cherry side, birch side, water
01:01 * Jordach_ OOMs again
01:02 Jordach_ benrob0329, https://jordach.net/Images/Screensh​ots/screenshot_20170414_020213.png
01:02 Jordach_ RBA's water with a solar plains art pass
01:03 benrob0329 Jordach_: its...beautiful
01:06 nore wow
01:06 Jordach_ if Solar Plains the one game with amiga art can look 800% BETTER
01:28 benrob0329 http://imgur.com/a/IwXuX
01:28 benrob0329 my, this isnt broken at all
03:11 shivajiva joined #minetest-hub
05:37 VanessaE sofar: so.. about the skybox mod.  alpha support and multi-layers and hard-coded sky behind the images ... when? :D
05:43 sofar !tell fixer csm skyboxes make little sense - there's nothing to opimize
05:43 ShadowBot sofar: O.K.
05:54 nore sofar: procedurally-generated skyboxes by client :)
05:54 lumidify joined #minetest-hub
06:17 sofar sure, but that needs a lot of engine work
06:19 VanessaE "New in 0.4.17:  [...] map terrain generation can now be applied to the skies to produce clouds (sofar) [...] "
06:19 VanessaE :)
06:19 nerzhul joined #minetest-hub
06:24 sofar VanessaE: honestly that mod isn't doing anything new
06:24 sofar VanessaE: it's just smart about how and what
06:28 VanessaE perhaps, but only takes one good baser implementation to get people really interested in moar Moar MOAR :)
06:28 VanessaE -r
06:29 CWz joined #minetest-hub
07:11 celeron55 what i do on computers that have the stutter in singleplayer is i just set max_simultaneous_block_sends_per_client = 1
07:16 celeron55 at this point i can't guess if it even is the same stutter as years ago, could be something different
07:19 tenplus1 joined #minetest-hub
07:19 tenplus1 hi folks
07:19 VanessaE morning, tenplus1
07:19 tenplus1 hi Vanessa
07:20 VanessaE celeron55: am I at least close in my guess then, that the mesh generator stalls the renderer because they're in the same thread (or at same priority)?
07:21 celeron55 eh, they aren't in the same thread
07:21 tenplus1 hi celeron
07:21 VanessaE hm, ok
07:21 celeron55 the stutter would be unimaginable in that case
07:23 celeron55 when i was digging into it years ago, the mesh generator could process all it wanted; the stutter happened only when the generated meshes were made to be rendered which meant that something did something with them synchronously at the first time they were rendered, and irrlicht didn't seem to, so the suspect ended up being the gpu driver
07:24 celeron55 i think that showed up as mainloop_draw time though
07:25 celeron55 well it does spike in Fixer's graphs also
07:25 VanessaE better to visit VE-S and see for yourself.  especially walking from spawn eastward toward the tunnel
07:26 VanessaE if you really wanna melt your machine down, install HDX too ;)
07:26 VanessaE (but I think we've been through this before)
07:27 celeron55 looks like on this system it looks like back then
07:28 celeron55 all the stutter is seen in mainloop_draw
07:29 VanessaE is that good, or bad? :)
07:29 celeron55 http://i.imgur.com/SGImCRM.png
07:29 celeron55 like this
07:30 celeron55 it means it's the same thing as before, to which there seems to be no other solution than to just not update more meshes than 1 per frame
07:30 celeron55 back then i found it to be outside of MT's control otherwise
07:31 VanessaE http://i.imgur.com/pi3QFYq.png
07:31 VanessaE that's my test world.
07:32 VanessaE jitter/fps are actually fairly good on that shot, as you can see
07:32 tenplus1 o.O the fist looks like it's trying to make a fart sound
07:32 celeron55 that has some _other like Fixer's, but most of it seems to be in _draw
07:32 celeron55 awit
07:32 celeron55 wait*
07:32 celeron55 no it doesn't
07:33 celeron55 isn't*
07:33 * celeron55 how does i english
07:33 VanessaE you talk good Engrish ;)
07:34 celeron55 i think those graphs look fine enough, no need to do anything
07:34 VanessaE wait.. :P
07:34 VanessaE http://i.imgur.com/WlhEOUf.png
07:36 celeron55 that's still nothing compared to Fixer's
07:36 VanessaE ok, let's try ... this. >:-)
07:37 celeron55 what is important is the amount of stutter compared to the base level of processing
07:37 VanessaE http://i.imgur.com/dyIkrVk.png
07:38 celeron55 doesn't seem to correlate with mesh generation
07:38 VanessaE it was.
07:38 VanessaE or it was entities loading, maybe
07:38 celeron55 actually, Fixer's might not either
07:38 VanessaE I'm not sure which.
07:38 celeron55 i just realized something, actually
07:39 VanessaE however, with each stall, there's new meshes coming in
07:39 VanessaE oh?
07:40 celeron55 if a frame takes 2x the time due to literally anything at all, the server may have sent 2x the amount of meshes during that time and that can cause the meshes to spike for that exact amount
07:40 VanessaE sounds reasonable.
07:40 celeron55 i'm calling any _other-only spikes as not being caused by mesh generation
07:41 celeron55 Fixer has similar ones, it's not the thing my screenshot is showing
07:41 celeron55 and not the thing i looked into back then
07:42 celeron55 it's probably just something the client directly does with some kind of data as it comes from the server (it does all that synchronously)
07:43 celeron55 (except for things that have specially made workers like meshes)
07:47 celeron55 that should be easily diagnosed by just adding a time measurement to all packet handlers and seeing which one is the most active when that kind of stutter happens
07:51 VanessaE celeron55: try this: sign onto daconcepts.com 30001, I'll teleport you to where I am.
07:52 VanessaE just turn on the graphs and observe the thing I'm looking at.
07:52 celeron55 might not be very useful on this system that has the problem with meshes already
07:52 VanessaE (a simple mesecons clock that runs a few dozen lengths of wire, toggles about once per 1.5 seconds, on average)
07:54 celeron55 i guess i can cook and eat my breakfast while this media download is happening
07:54 VanessaE heh
07:54 VanessaE should only take a minute or two
07:55 VanessaE well maybe a bit more since you're getting 1 Mbps or so :)
07:58 VanessaE ah, I see you in-game.  let me know when and I'll teleport you over here.
07:58 VanessaE (or you can just wander around, it isn't far from the spawn)
07:59 tenplus1 Fire Redo updated to add new /fire (on.off) command to stop and remove spreading fire in-game
08:02 VanessaE celeron55: melted your computer into slag?
08:04 Krock joined #minetest-hub
08:04 tenplus1 hi Krock
08:04 Krock hi tenplus1
08:04 VanessaE morning Krock
08:04 Krock moin VanessaE
08:06 tenplus1 what kinda priv should be required to turn fire spreading on/off ?
08:06 Krock server, I guess?
08:06 tenplus1 kewl, got that set as default
08:07 cheapie celeron55: http://imgsrv.worldstart.com/1/8773Body.jpg yet?
08:07 celeron55 well, all i can say is that what i see doesn't disprove what i said
08:07 tenplus1 github.com/tenplus1/fire <-- new /fire (on|off) added to stop fire spreading in-game...  also normal chest burns and drops items
08:07 VanessaE celeron55: fair enough.  Just wanted you to see what an in-practice server looks like
08:07 VanessaE in the graphs
08:07 * tenplus1 gets out marshmallows
08:08 celeron55 the stutter is ridiculous though
08:08 cheapie I turned my meshgen delay up a bit, seems fine to me now.
08:10 celeron55 if someone has a system that doesn't stutter on VE-S, i'd like to know
08:10 tenplus1 ve-s ?
08:10 VanessaE tenplus1: daconcepts.com 30001
08:10 cheapie celeron55: Mine only stutters if I have a low or 0 meshgen delay set.
08:10 VanessaE aka "VE-Survival" or "VE-S" for short.
08:10 tenplus1 logging in
08:10 cheapie Jordach's might be able to handle 0.
08:11 VanessaE my machine can't avoid stutter even at 50.
08:11 celeron55 cheapie: on that server?
08:11 cheapie Yes.
08:11 celeron55 it doesn't seem mesh-related, what else does the meshgen delay affect?
08:12 cheapie I don't have much noticeable stutter at 10, but it's rather bad at 0.
08:12 cheapie It seems to be worse with lots of entities moving around, maybe that's it?
08:12 tenplus1 christ, am getting 5fps... what's up here ???
08:13 tenplus1 tha's better, am away from spawn... 29 fps... no stutter so far
08:16 tenplus1 any chance of adding a /clear chat command ?
08:17 tenplus1 would help a lot
08:17 cheapie Make a client mod for it :P
08:17 tenplus1 can lua actually clear log ???
08:17 Krock no but it can be flooded with empty messages
08:17 cheapie By displaying a bunch of blank messages, yeah.
08:18 tenplus1 noooooo, that's a nasty way of doing it...    by clear I mean delete log entirely
08:18 tenplus1 celeron55: am in the middle of nowhere with 54fps and no stutter, even when loading map
08:20 tenplus1 what am I looking for in F5 stats ?
08:20 lumidify_ joined #minetest-hub
08:20 tenplus1 hi lumidify
08:21 celeron55 no you need to be right in the center of everything
08:21 celeron55 and what you're looking for in F5 is a screenshot
08:21 tenplus1 so go back to spawn and take a screenshot of stats ?
08:21 celeron55 that's a good start
08:23 celeron55 preferably with a view range of not very far like <100 so that stutter is clearer
08:25 tenplus1 http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=35b6luu&amp;s=9
08:26 tenplus1 does that help ?
08:28 celeron55 yeah, looks pretty much the same as for me
08:29 celeron55 and now i'm thinking maybe this is related to mesh generation, but in a different way than what i've seen before
08:31 tenplus1 brb
08:31 tenplus1 left #minetest-hub
08:34 celeron55 the goal can't be anything else than getting rid of all that, of course, but i need to find out whether it's actually possible in practice
08:35 celeron55 or someone has to; i'm taking a look now in case it happens to be worth anything
09:29 nerzhul joined #minetest-hub
09:31 VanessaE *sees celeron55 re-join on VE-S*
09:31 VanessaE uh oh, I think I lit a fire ;)
09:38 Darcidride joined #minetest-hub
09:48 sfan5 why do people want me to remove xanadu from the srvlist?
09:48 sfan5 (ping: sofar)
10:02 * VanessaE wonders what celeron55 is up to...
10:03 sfan5 hm well i get that it doesn't accept registrations atm
10:03 sfan5 but having a server on the list still is useful for providing the client with flags
10:03 sfan5 so it can populate the entry players have in their favorites
10:04 VanessaE if it were up to me, any server that's gone private like that would be best excluded from the public list
10:05 sfan5 we could just move it to the bottom
10:05 VanessaE sounds fair
10:05 VanessaE demote rather than delete
10:18 nerzhul sfan5, can you tell me what do we do with https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5559 ? Merge ? remove some files from the changeset and merge ?
10:19 sfan5 i'll look at it later
10:21 Fixer joined #minetest-hub
10:26 lumidify joined #minetest-hub
10:39 * VanessaE wanders off to sleep
10:54 celeron55 http://i.imgur.com/t2xoh55.png
10:57 celeron55 most of the mainloop_other time is handling of TOCLIENT_BLOCKDATA packets, most of which is spent deserializing mapblock node metadata inventories and the rest is copying mapblock data to the mesh generator
10:59 celeron55 mainloop_dtime is mainloop_other + mainloop_draw though, and i have no idea why mainloop_draw bounces up like that
11:00 Shara Hello all
11:01 celeron55 but it does look like on VE-S at least a third of the lagginess is due to lots of node inventories being received all the time
11:02 celeron55 at least in that specific spot
11:05 celeron55 if one limits the mesh generator speed, then the server will wait for it before sending more mapblock updates and that way the TOCLIENT_BLOCKDATA handler doesn't get so much data and the server is capable of doing enough prioritization for the missing updates to not be very noticeable
11:06 celeron55 (mainly it just leaves out updates for blocks that are not very close to the player)
11:11 Krock thus, it may be helpful to not send the while mapblock if only the node meta changed
11:11 celeron55 the server will send a full mapblock basically always when something changes and it doesn't have a more specific way of sending the change, and also if there are many small changes
11:11 Krock *whole
11:11 Fixer stutters i seen: 1) meshgen (most annoying) 2) due to mesecons/stuff 3) big freezes during loading kaeza signs (catched on ve-s) 4) other stutters that show up in mainloop_other (including in singleplayer)
11:12 Fixer 5) stutter when using https://github.com/minetest-mods/dynamic_liquid/ in ocean with open cave below (very big stutter in mainloop_other)
11:13 celeron55 Fixer: meshgen doesn't show up in mainloop_other; stop calling it that and call it mapblock updates instead
11:13 celeron55 it just happens to be that the meshgen is invoked for mapblock updates (obviously)
11:13 Fixer i know, where did i said it? /me sips coffee
11:14 Fixer yes, mainloop other is nondraw related
11:15 celeron55 Krock: it would be very useful to know what even changes on the server to cause the updates
11:16 Fixer i pinpointed kaeza signs that skyrocket mainloop_other part, but what causes it in vanilla singleplayer...
11:16 celeron55 i'm not going to try guessing
11:16 Jordach joined #minetest-hub
11:17 celeron55 adding some logging on the server might be a good idea, just to make it say why it's sending mapblocks
11:17 Fixer "mini" stutter https://i.imgur.com/JH9rDBm.png
11:18 Fixer just 0.009 in other but some time before it was like 0.3
11:18 Fixer lone spike
11:21 Fixer sofar's skybox mod: https://i.imgur.com/CbQDVC5.jpg
11:26 Fixer kek https://i.imgur.com/FAB2Kx3.png
11:26 Fixer 2.2 sec stutter
11:26 Fixer mainloop_other
11:27 celeron55 http://i.imgur.com/XCR3wqc.png
11:27 celeron55 deserializing about a thousand inventorylists per frame 8)
11:27 celeron55 how about that
11:27 Jordach *click* noice
11:28 Fixer https://i.imgur.com/Roasy40.png standing on spawn with mesh gen delay set at 15ms
11:28 Krock holy shit. where do these changes even come from?!
11:28 Fixer traffic from vanessa server is about 100kbyte/sec
11:29 celeron55 Krock: that's what i'd like to know
11:29 Fixer still, mesh gen interval at 15 ms helps immensely on ve-s
11:31 celeron55 let's write some instrumentation for VE's server and see what on earth it's even trying to do
11:34 Jordach celeron55, i think that's like errr disecting a dead whale, it'll likely explode if you do :P
11:36 Fixer van spawn without mesh gen delay https://i.imgur.com/tRhO5yi.png
11:40 Fixer sigh, nore's shop has no text on kaeza signs because of usual reasons
11:40 Fixer too many entities or smth
12:09 celeron55 in the VE-S case, i think it's not feasible to make much improvement on the client side when the server is being that silly
12:12 celeron55 i pushed those additional graphs to this branch https://github.com/celeron55/minet​est/tree/toclient_blockdata_graphs
12:13 celeron55 some random screenshots of those might be useful
12:18 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
12:23 CWz Upps forgot to remove that tag
12:24 Krock ha ha ha. I don't get it.
12:24 Fixer added to my compile patch set
12:27 paramat joined #minetest-hub
12:28 Krock *compiles*
12:28 Fixer *compiling intensifies*
12:29 paramat the worst problem i get is long, up to 1 sec, screen freezes. i often notice this when starting a new world and flying fast over a large snowy forest (complex meshes) with view range 130-190
12:31 tenplus1 joined #minetest-hub
12:31 tenplus1 hi folks
12:31 Krock hi tenplus1
12:32 celeron55 paramat: sounds like you probably run out of RAM and your system ends up swapping
12:32 Megaf Hi onetyone
12:32 tenplus1 hi Megaf
12:32 * Megaf dont know how he is not the most hated person on Earth
12:33 tenplus1 celeron55: strangely enough I had that issue yesterday, mt ram usage shot right up and used vm causing major lag and stall
12:33 celeron55 meshes use up a lot of memory
12:33 tenplus1 this was default game
12:33 tenplus1 no mods
12:34 Fixer ram size?
12:34 tenplus1 my net-top has 2gb physical and 1gb vm
12:35 Shara Hi ten :)
12:35 tenplus1 hi Shara :)
12:35 tenplus1 got something you may like btw...   github.com/tenplus1/fire
12:37 Krock some stats: http://i.imgur.com/ASZVijB.png
12:38 Calinou hi tenplus1
12:39 tenplus1 hi cal
12:39 Shara tenplus1: My skyboxes are almost working now :)
12:39 Shara Just need to find or make a couple more
12:39 tenplus1 ooh, link meh :P   I like what I saw before
12:39 Shara http://rc.minetest.tv/wp-content/u​ploads/2017/04/thebox_sky_hub.png
12:40 Shara And thinking of using http://rc.minetest.tv/wp-content/up​loads/2017/04/thebox_sky_night.png
12:40 tenplus1 ooh
12:40 tenplus1 I added a command to fire Redo for noob servers...  can type:   /fire off    and it stops spreading in-game and removes nodes on update
12:41 Shara Problem is, the people it would help are unlike to find a redo mod
12:41 Shara Byt the time they do that, they know enough to find options too
12:41 Shara though I like the idea of an ingame switch
12:41 tenplus1 heh yeah...  but would let owners enable fire with a quick option to disable it
12:44 Shara I just need time to make the teleporters I need now :P
12:44 tenplus1 custom mods 101 :PPP
12:45 Shara It's the only way to do this one
12:45 tenplus1 whaddya need from it ?
12:45 Shara The teleporters?
12:45 tenplus1 yeah
12:45 Shara Hehe, PMN if you want to help. You'd be more than welcome to :)
12:45 Shara PM*
12:46 paramat nope it wasn't running out of RAM i have 7GB free
12:46 Fixer paramat: https://github.com/celeron55/minet​est/tree/toclient_blockdata_graphs
12:47 Fixer paramat: this has more debug graphs, try with it
12:48 paramat thanks
12:51 celeron55 those graphs were chosen to pinpoint the problem on VE-S, they aren't general purpose, really, altough at least you can tell if the problem is the same or not
12:52 paramat ok
12:53 paramat i have (good, recent) intel integrated graphics though, maybe this has an effect
12:59 celeron55 in Krock's screenshot one can see that 1) the particular location doesn't have a similarly massive metadata inventory issue as VE-S does, 2) copying mapblock data to mesh update tasks is too slow, 3) there are also other spikes in mainloop_other not caused by anything done by the toclient_blockdata handler
13:00 Krock in other words meaningless
13:00 celeron55 finding out what the other spikes are would be useful
13:01 Krock since the spikes aren't that big
13:02 celeron55 well, in my opinion any mainloop_dtime spike that is twice as high as the normal frametime is too high
13:03 celeron55 in other words i'm happy if dtime_jitter is less than 100%
13:04 celeron55 or, well, i'm happy anyway, but i don't expect players to be happy with that being higher than 100% 8)
13:06 Fixer will try with dynamic liquid mod
13:08 Fixer dynamic liquid mod : https://i.imgur.com/fGMoULo.png
13:08 Fixer freezes
13:08 paramat unsurprisingly
13:10 Fixer dynamic liquid uses abms on water nodes iirc
13:10 Fixer swaps nodes etc
13:10 paramat nightmare
13:10 paramat it's bad enough in C++
13:11 Fixer ve-s time
13:12 Fixer celeron55: is it possible to export graph data into csv file and profile like everything.... and then in excel sort out worse offenders
13:13 Fixer huge freeze on ve-s probably because of kaeza signs with those graphs: https://i.imgur.com/d3cLYLH.png
13:14 Fixer mesh upd interv 15 ms
13:15 Fixer 2.11 sec freeze somewhere in other: https://i.imgur.com/YHGfZ37.png
13:16 celeron55 <+Fixer> dynamic liquid mod : https://i.imgur.com/fGMoULo.png <- this is a good example of a spike that is mainly due to the copying of mapblock data to the meshgen
13:17 celeron55 (it's visible as MeshMakeData::fill making up most of the spike)
13:17 celeron55 (85.8ms out of 100ms)
13:19 sniper338 joined #minetest-hub
13:21 celeron55 https://i.imgur.com/d3cLYLH.png https://i.imgur.com/YHGfZ37.png <- in these the main source of the >1s spike is not visible; it's something else than anything in the toclient_blockdata handler
13:22 celeron55 i would assume any >1s spike is the OS having to move stuff between ram and swap
13:22 celeron55 but maybe it could be something else too
13:23 celeron55 Fixer: it's possible but all the measurements have to be added to the code
13:24 tenplus1 back laters
13:27 Fixer 8gbit ram, 64 bit os
13:41 celeron55 Fixer: you made a windows build, right? can you upload it somewhere, i'll take some measurements myself
13:41 celeron55 i don't have a build toolchain on this windows box
13:46 paramat my long freezes are only rarely near 1s, mostly they are around 0.2s
13:46 Fixer celeron55: yes
13:46 Fixer celeron55: will upload
13:46 Fixer celeron55: win build via mingw64 crosscompile from lin to win
13:49 Fixer celeron55: https://transfer.sh/56Aao/minetest-0.4.1​5-98286a2-win64-PR4981-5533-profile.zip
13:55 celeron55 looks like MeshMakeData::fill slowness is the general issue on this system
13:58 celeron55 there's the PR about this, right? the one that takes away the copying of some of the neighbors
13:59 paramat erm
14:00 paramat https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5239 ?
14:05 celeron55 the thing is, there's no way to skip this code, and there's no way to make this code asynchronous
14:05 celeron55 and it's already probably the fastest implementation in what it does
14:07 celeron55 well actually there is a way to make it asynchronous
14:07 celeron55 what that would involve is having two copies of the entire Map on the client, one for the main thread and one for the mesh generator thread
14:09 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
14:09 nerzhul joined #minetest-hub
14:15 celeron55 possibly with some kind of dynamic batching
14:17 celeron55 preparing the data for the mesh generation job of one mapblock already collects most of the data for generating the mesh of a neighboring mapblock; adding some neighbors to it is relatively cheap
14:20 celeron55 actually, the calling code is so stupid upgrading this doesn't even mean it has to be dynamic, it just needs to be less stupid...
14:21 Fixer pr 5239 did not eliminate the stutter for me
14:23 celeron55 nothing will eliminate it but it should have removed some of the stutter
14:23 celeron55 are you sure it didn't?
14:24 celeron55 it literally removes 77% of processing in MeshMakeData::fill which is the main reason for the spike in https://i.imgur.com/fGMoULo.png
14:25 Fixer https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/5239#issuecomment-280632461
14:25 celeron55 i would expect 5239 to at least halve the spike in that screenshot
14:26 Fixer it probably fixes only some sorts of stutter
14:26 celeron55 the only way to fix all sorts of stutter is to stop using minetest, lol
14:26 Fixer mesh_generation_interval = 15
14:27 Fixer with this i do not need to quit minetest
14:27 Fixer helps immensely in vanilla singleplayer
14:28 Fixer ve-s is worst kind of lagserver
14:28 Fixer just test was too
14:28 Fixer but it died
14:30 celeron55 5239 won't help with the problem in VE-S, it's a different stutter
14:30 celeron55 or, well, VE-S has it too, but it has larger stutters that make it irrelevant
14:34 celeron55 Fixer: can you test with and without 5239's first commit (not the extra two); the preferred situation is the initial first seconds of loading a world that has been generated beforehand
14:35 celeron55 take a screenshot of the graphs just before the first graph lines are about to disappear
14:35 Fixer i can try
14:36 celeron55 even on this laptop that barely has any stutter i can see a 2x decrease in stutter (if you can even call it stutter on this...)
14:36 celeron55 http://i.imgur.com/WziViVq.png <- without 5239's first commit
14:36 celeron55 http://i.imgur.com/yJL08oJ.png <- with 5239's first commit
14:37 celeron55 mainloop_other is cut in half
14:37 celeron55 this is with mesh_generation_interval = 0, which should probably be used for these tests
14:38 Fixer i will use default config
14:38 nerzhul modders, i'm working on chat protocol rewrite (started in january), to have better client side handling. A chat message is now composed with: (message, sender, type). Type is: (raw, normal, announce, system)
14:38 nerzhul it will permit CSM mods to ate message and handle it to do nice things (for examples with this mode you can easily create mods to change chat colors depending on type message or nicknames)
14:38 nerzhul do you think i miss someting ?
14:39 nerzhul maybe a timestamp
14:39 nerzhul no ?
14:42 Jordach http://oh-god-not-ht.ml/
14:44 Krock http://yeahboi.me/
14:45 octacian nerzhul: cool!
14:51 Fixer celeron55: you mean lower peak mainloop_other? there needs to be some kind of moving avg
14:51 celeron55 well, the problem is spikes, so peak works fine
14:55 nerzhul ty octacian :)
15:00 Fixer celeron55: somewhat crude, i can do it much better https://imgur.com/a/qmbjO
15:01 Fixer celeron55: default config with vrange 240
15:02 celeron55 it seems similar to what i saw
15:03 celeron55 are you able to test a dynamic liquid scenario?
15:04 celeron55 i guess make two copies of a world and take a screenshot after the same amount of seconds or something
15:06 Fixer another try here https://imgur.com/a/QBNW4
15:08 celeron55 that one seems to be first with PR, then no PR
15:10 Fixer smaller mainloop other is with pr
15:11 celeron55 the effect isn't as large as i hoped but it clearly is there
15:14 celeron55 what this means is that any optimization that can be done to Client::addUpdateMeshTaskWithEdge will help
15:15 Fixer celeron55: https://imgur.com/a/7ckbw
15:15 Fixer dynamic liquid
15:15 Fixer close enough
15:16 Fixer made screenshot too fast and missed third spike...
15:18 celeron55 this difference is very clear
15:19 benrob0329 http://bash.org/?870063
15:19 benrob0329 This is one of the greatest things I've ever read.
15:21 Fixer celeron55: when i tested it with 6 or 18 neighb-s i had graphical errors, like that mapblock light edges and broken flowing water
15:22 Krock oh cool! bash is online again. Last time I checked it was down
15:22 nerzhul i prefer zsh
15:23 benrob0329 someone post that
15:24 Jordach http://bash.org/?962787 me_irl
15:25 celeron55 Fixer: yeah i'm not proposing merging of the PR, the PR just happens to have similar performance implications as what i'm thinking could be done without errors
15:25 celeron55 not nearly as easily as changing a number though
15:26 Fixer too bad it is just one sort of stutter
15:29 celeron55 the only way to easily fix most stutters is to limit processing like mesh_generation_interval does, which limits map loading and update speed
15:29 Fixer yes
15:29 Fixer and it helps a lot
15:30 Fixer hugely helps
15:30 celeron55 well it's like telling a man with a broken leg to not walk
15:31 celeron55 can you point out other stutters than this one, and the one that happens on places like VE-S's spawn with a lot of interactive nodes?
15:33 celeron55 the 1-2 second spikes were mentioned but it wasn't clear in which situation they happen
15:34 Fixer stutters i seen: 1) meshgen (most frequent and annoying) 2) due to metadata change in mesecons/technic/whatever? (periodical) 3) big freezes during loading kaeza signs (catched on ve-s) 4) other stutters that show up in mainloop_other (including in singleplayer) 5) stutter when using https://github.com/minetest-mods/dynamic_liquid/
15:34 celeron55 is 1 the same as 5?
15:34 Fixer celeron55: 1-2 sec freezes caused by loading kaeza signs on ve-s thats like 99.9% sure, since i seen exact moment of stutter and text appearing on signs
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15:35 Fixer celeron55: dynamic liquid causes two stutters: small draw one and big nondraw
15:35 Fixer kaeza sign load causes huge nondraw freeze
15:35 Fixer in mainloop_other
15:36 Fixer 5 is just a combination of various stutters %)
15:36 Fixer tbh
15:37 celeron55 so is 1 draw or non-draw?
15:37 Fixer celeron55: dynamic liquids is both
15:38 Fixer celeron55: kaeza signs is nondraw
15:38 Fixer nondraw = in mainloop_other
15:38 celeron55 but "1) meshgen (most frequent and annoying)"
15:39 Fixer in general play in singleplayer/multiplayer like 95% of stutter is mesh updates
15:39 Fixer smth like that
15:40 celeron55 but do you see it in mainloop_other or mainloop_draw?
15:40 Fixer for what case?
15:40 Fixer dynamic liquid?
15:40 Fixer or general play?
15:41 Fixer for general play most stutters occur in mainloop_draw
15:41 celeron55 well, a stutter can't change from one to another :P
15:42 Fixer but you have many of them in one game, due to usual mesh updating and due to other causes
15:43 celeron55 tough luck; we kind of need to be able to separate them anyway, lol
15:43 Fixer in singleplayer with 15 ms i noticed this:
15:44 Fixer 1) mesh update stutter is reduced to very minimum, comfy to play
15:44 Fixer 2) no mesh updates - yet 0.03 sec spike in mainloop_other arrives...
15:44 Fixer or even 0.04
15:44 Fixer during walking
15:44 Fixer hmm
15:45 sofar have you eliminated other sources of stutter?
15:45 sofar e.g. download local map, run around in that?
15:45 Fixer mesh_generation_interval = 15 is silver bullet for me, it fixes vanilla singleplayer and modded multiplayer more or less (except inhuman vanessa server spawns)
15:46 Fixer celeron55: there is more stuttering in singleplayer than in multiplayer for some reason
15:47 Fixer celeron55: if more or less vanilla server
15:48 Fixer it seems
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15:53 celeron55 Fixer: that's because most of the stutters happen at the code that receives mapblocks from the server and a singleplayer server can send stuff faster than a dedicated server
15:54 celeron55 Fixer: also because most of the stutters happen at the code that receives mapblocks from the server (same reason), mesh_generation_interval doesn't control the rate properly because it limits mesh generation, not directly the mapblock receive rate that you actually want to control for the purpose
15:55 Fixer not a problem, i've used 15ms interval and it worked good on sp/mp/vanessa
15:56 Fixer on my pc*
15:56 celeron55 it seems dynamic liquid is mainly the exact same stutter but so much worse mesh_generation_interval is unable to limit it
15:57 celeron55 (as it controls the wrong thing)
16:00 Fixer no wait, dynamic liquid has small mesh update stutter and huge different stutter
16:03 Fixer or whatever
16:03 Fixer fuck it
16:04 celeron55 most of the spike that you showed earlier today was caused by MeshMakeData::fill
16:04 celeron55 well, in all of the three screenshots that were of dynamic liquid
16:05 Fixer oh that, yeah
16:05 Fixer but why it shows up in _other?
16:09 celeron55 it's the main thread filling in VoxelManipulators to be handed to the mesh generator, as the mesh generator can't directly read the map
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16:10 celeron55 that's how the system works
16:12 celeron55 PR 5239 tries to make it fill in less stuff, and thus stutter less, but it turned out it needs all the stuff
16:17 celeron55 i think this is the most important one to somehow optimize
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16:28 Fixer celeron55: but what about kaeza sign/entity multisecond freezes on ve-s?
16:38 celeron55 it's something completely different
16:38 celeron55 where's the source code for those?
16:38 celeron55 is it too complex for a quick read?
16:46 nore celeron55: my perf tests show that the problem is the texture creation that takes a lot of CPU
16:47 nore I don't remember where the code for that is, though
16:47 celeron55 that's a rather obvious case then
16:48 nore well, I guess texture creation could be optimized a bit
16:48 nore but having something more efficient for these signs & others is definitely needed
16:50 celeron55 looks like i'm able to take away 50% of processing from the main thread very crudely by copying mapblock contents into MeshMakeData and creating the VM later in the mesh generator thread
16:51 nore there https://github.com/minetest/minetest/​blob/master/src/client/tile.cpp#L594
16:52 nore rather that https://github.com/minetest/minetest/​blob/master/src/client/tile.cpp#L1014
16:52 celeron55 i mean, just allocating and memcpying each mapblock's data member into a 26+1 long std::vector<MapNode*> m_mapblock_data; and then doing what MeshMakeData::fill does in the mesh generator thread; it's like 50% more processing overall, but 50% less processing in the main thread :P
16:52 celeron55 i'm going to try something fancier but i guess this is one option if nothing else works
16:57 Fixer celeron55: https://github.com/minetest-mods/signs_lib
16:59 Fixer just 1163 lines
16:59 Fixer :trollface:
16:59 sofar celeron55: what are the 3 most used struct/classes in minetest when rendering?
17:00 sofar just gonna throw pahole at them and see if they're bad or good
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17:01 nore about signs: I think this block of code is the one that should be optimized https://github.com/minetest/minetest/​blob/master/src/client/tile.cpp#L1342 (since signs use [combine with a massive amount of textures)
17:01 celeron55 sofar: i don't know, maybe some irrlicht classes
17:02 sfan5 nore: wrong approach
17:02 sfan5 we should just implement a decent way to make signs
17:02 nore sfan5: yes
17:02 sfan5 also IIRC using [combine a lot is guaranteed to "leak" memory
17:02 sfan5 as each single step to the final tex is cached
17:03 nore hmmm, isn't that the advantage of [combine over ^ though?
17:03 sfan5 no
17:04 sofar #1367
17:04 sfan5 the advantage of [combine over ^ is that you can combine multiple images at once and set their positions
17:04 nore yes
17:04 nore so you don't get the intermediate combinations cached
17:04 sfan5 also what i'm referring to is foo.png^[combine:<...>^[com​bine:<....>^[combine:<...>
17:04 sfan5 foo.png^[combine.<... lots of stuff ...> is fine
17:05 nore yeah, the first is bad, agreed
17:07 celeron55 i think there's no reason not to optimize [combine, assuming there's a way to optimize it
17:09 nerzhul i think i should refactor client event structure, if i get time, before release to reduce memory usage on events (using POO)
17:09 celeron55 but it doesn't really do anything more than it has to
17:09 nerzhul union = use the largest member memory size
17:12 nerzhul also client events are handled using copy, i don't know if it's heavily used client side, but it can make a big memory penalty when many events are in queue
17:17 celeron55 (maybe some of this belongs to #-dev? 8))
17:18 sofar damn all this offtopic chat...!
17:19 celeron55 maybe modders will learn C++ if we talk enough about it
17:22 Fixer +1 for signs
17:28 sofar I had high hope that a guy like juhdanad or lhofhansl would have come up with code for #1367 already
17:28 sofar I think my API and method would have worked well and be simple to add
17:29 sofar now I end up writing my own sign mods using entities :(
17:32 nerzhul +1 for C++
17:33 nore well actually dynamic node textures + a "text" texture modifier that generates text from a charmap image & a string would do that very well
17:34 nore the second one shouldn't be too difficult to do and will probably save a lot when generating the texture
17:35 nore while the former will avoid having so many entities but is more difficult, you need to convince juhdanad to do that :)
17:39 paramat using POO?
17:39 nore paramat: OOP
17:39 nore POO is the French name :)
17:41 Krock poo :3
17:45 CWz Whinne la merde
18:15 paramat ahh object orient
18:23 Fixer celeron55: there is also one very weird fps drop problem i will look into with this enhanced profiler, for some reason fps drops a lot to some value and after some time goes back to normal
18:23 Fixer very strange and random bug i found while playing on hometown server
18:23 Fixer maybe f5 shows up smth useful
18:29 celeron55 checking the GPU and CPU MHz during that would be useful in case it's a throttling event of some kind
18:30 * benrob0329 returns
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18:42 Fixer celeron55: if you wondering, my amd/ati hd6870 sometimes drops frequences for very short instant (maybe second or less) during minetest play, observed this in 0.4.13 or somewhere
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19:28 Hijiri minetest must be so efficient that the card is tricked into thinking it needs less power
19:29 Fixer gpu-z said videocard utilisation was at 20-50%, no idea how it measures it
19:36 Krock busy vs idle in a specified timespan, and then the average of it, perhaps?
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19:56 tenplus1 hi folks
19:56 Shara Hi ten :P
19:56 tenplus1 hi shara
19:57 tenplus1 spent the last few hours setting up a bluetooth pedal on ipad...  *shudder*
19:57 Shara Ekk
19:58 Shara I've been fussing with mods a lot
19:58 tenplus1 what ya working on ?
19:58 Shara SOmeone opened an issue on my fire mod, but figured it out already
19:58 tenplus1 I tested the slab opening door bug that's in latest dev... thankfully it doesnt happen with doors/stairs redo :P
19:58 sofar that bug is in builtin I believe
19:59 Shara Hi sofar
19:59 Jordach meow
19:59 tenplus1 hi sofar
19:59 tenplus1 hi Jordach
19:59 sofar but, if you're not using the fine_pointed API you're safe
19:59 Shara meow Jordach
19:59 Krock tenplus1, because your redo doesn't use the new builtin function yes
19:59 Krock *yet
19:59 tenplus1 hi Krock, exactly :DDD
19:59 Krock damn it sofar. Always these ninjas
19:59 tenplus1 keepin it simple
19:59 * sofar swooshes away behind a puff of smoke, coughing
20:00 tenplus1 I bet that smoke is cms particles :PPP
20:00 sofar right, so nobody else sees them, lmao
20:00 tenplus1 ehehe
20:00 Shara sofar: thanks for the skybox links yesterday. Found at least one there I'm going to use :)
20:01 tenplus1 been checking those out, they look so beautiful... does it lag changing skybox on servers tho ?
20:01 Shara This one: http://rc.minetest.tv/wp-content/up​loads/2017/04/thebox_sky_night.png
20:01 sofar no
20:01 sofar it's just a tiny packet to the client
20:01 tenplus1 w00t!... it adds a lot to the game having beautiful skies :P
20:02 sofar of course, textures do need to be loaded on startup
20:02 tenplus1 how big did you get the images down to ?
20:02 Shara Still considering this one: http://rc.minetest.tv/wp-content/uploads​/2017/04/thebox_sky_desert_mountains.png
20:02 sofar 17mb for all 6 combined
20:02 tenplus1 oof
20:02 sofar the largest set is 5mb
20:02 Shara That's pretty big still
20:02 sofar the smallest one is ... *checks*
20:03 tenplus1 will it replace mt's own sunset/sunrise gradients by using them ?
20:03 sofar 1.1M total
20:03 sofar yes, you lose *all* sky elements entirely
20:03 tenplus1 aw
20:03 Jordach whatcha doin, sofar
20:03 sofar no moon, no sun, no clouds
20:03 Shara I got the night sky one there too... about 450kb
20:04 Shara to*
20:04 * Jordach coughs
20:04 Jordach something something stellar api
20:04 Jordach something something transparent skyboxes
20:04 tenplus1 api's are fun
20:04 * nore wants
20:04 tenplus1 hi nore
20:04 nore hey all btw :)
20:04 Jordach or even just allow skyboxes to be paletted by the dynamic colours
20:04 Shara Hi nore :)
20:04 sofar I've been doing OSS too long, I know that small steps are needed to make big changes
20:04 Jordach sofar, Y O L O
20:04 tenplus1 heh
20:05 sofar yes, but, in my lifetime I aim to achieve major differences by making small contributions in the right way over time
20:05 sofar not "go for bust" and achieve nothing
20:05 tenplus1 +1 for small changes... it all adds up
20:06 Hijiri if you're dictator you can freeze development for your totally great overhaul change
20:06 tenplus1 hi Hijiri
20:06 Hijiri hi
20:06 * tenplus1 wonders if Kim Jong Un has his own minetest clone ?!?! o.O
20:07 Hijiri I joined this channel so I would have more irc logs to burn time on reading
20:07 Krock Hijiri, you should consider burning time by submitting features and bugfixes for Minetest :P
20:08 sofar any *serious* server operators online willing to discuss a proposal?
20:08 Hijiri ah yeah I've been pretty inactive, even in modding
20:09 Shara sofar: define 'serious'
20:09 sofar willing to pay 1$ to make their servers load faster for players.
20:09 Krock #define serious "SELECT * FROM users WHERE server_skills > -1"
20:10 * tenplus1 ran ALL textures through 'optipng -o9 -strip all *.png' and it definitely loads faster :D
20:10 Shara did same and moved to remote media and... yea. Been fine since
20:11 sofar how about a shared CDN for *all* media from many servers
20:11 sofar automatically updated regularly
20:11 sofar hosted all across the world on various professional CDNs
20:11 Shara I just use what TPS has for it
20:11 sofar so they don't even hit *your* media server
20:11 tenplus1 if sound sets could be loaded locally like textures it would save a lot of server load
20:11 Krock tenplus1, storage-wise there's no change due to sector size but there will be indeed less data to send over the pipe
20:11 Shara So I don't use my own media server.
20:12 sofar yes but how does TPS get *your* textures?
20:12 Shara I have access.
20:12 sofar who else does?
20:12 Shara RobbieF
20:12 Shara Since he owns TPS.
20:12 tenplus1 tps skyblock looks real nice with john smith texture pack :D
20:12 sofar so what if I want to use it?
20:13 sofar or *randomjoe*
20:13 sofar it's costing robbief now (I'm sure he pays for it some way)
20:13 sofar and when he leaves, it's gone?
20:13 sofar besides he doesn't have a CDN
20:14 sofar just just has *a* media server
20:14 Shara Since I'm on the TPS team and have been working closely with them for a very long time now, I'm not too worried about it.
20:14 sofar a CDN would be a lot faster for everyone
20:14 sofar and probably cheaper in the end
20:14 Shara Pretty sure it is actually, but can't check things right now
20:15 sofar plus we can open it for everyone
20:15 sofar accelerating everyone's servers
20:16 tenplus1 question... do clients load all textures from a server or does it already use default textures (not texture pack) ?
20:17 sofar good question
20:17 tenplus1 I'd rather not load default textures from a server if they already exist on hdd
20:17 tenplus1 *cough* ssd
20:17 Jordach isn;t that the point of cache
20:17 Jordach tenplus?
20:17 sofar I'm assuming it doesn't load unneeded textures
20:18 tenplus1 my cache folder is always empty... nothing is saved there
20:18 sofar that's what the media cache is for
20:18 sofar ~/.cache/minetest/media
20:18 sofar 350M+ in there for me
20:18 tenplus1 .minetest/cache <-- empty
20:18 Shara Mine's always got stuff
20:18 sofar that's old, no longer used
20:19 sofar the .minetest/cache folder is not the right location
20:19 tenplus1 ooh
20:19 tenplus1 got 355mb... ouch!
20:19 tenplus1 didnt realise it changed location
20:21 sofar oh
20:21 sofar I know
20:21 sofar robbief uses cdnjs
20:23 Shara My creative used to suffer if I had many connections at once, up until I moved stuff
20:23 Shara so it definitely helps
20:24 Shara but reducing media size helped a lot too
20:25 sofar so anyway, I'm thinking we should get a collective CDN for everyone who runs a server
20:25 Shara most slow loading servers I encounter have a ridiculous number of mods
20:25 sofar and allow server admins to upload media for inclusion
20:25 tenplus1 true, they add all sorts in the hope of making a better server, not realising it slows things down
20:26 Jordach use github as a media server :^) </insanity>
20:26 sofar github isn't a CDN
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20:28 tenplus1 hi rubenwardy
20:29 benrob0329 Hi rubenwardy, tenplus1, Jordach, sofar, Shara, Krock
20:29 Shara Hi benrob0329
20:29 Krock hi benrob0329
20:30 Calinou hi benrob0329
20:30 benrob0329 Hi Calinou
20:31 tenplus1 hi ben
20:36 rubenwardy joined #minetest-hub
20:41 sofar I'm fairly sure I could build a service that allows minetest server operators to have a professional CDN for all their media
20:41 sofar and even auto-update it regularly
20:41 * tenplus1 has an old Amiga 500 he uses as a media server :PPPP
20:41 sofar giving everyone the fastest possible login times
20:41 sofar tenplus1: but the guy in australia gets it from your server
20:41 sofar the idea of a CDN is that it's in australia already
20:42 tenplus1 :P
20:42 sofar wherever the player is
20:42 sofar not where you are
20:42 sofar all server owners would have to do is
20:42 sofar set a media url to the CDN
20:42 sofar and register their server with the bit that syncs their game server with it
20:44 Fixer current mood: http://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com​/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/12357700_4644​69330405959_1963486238_n.jpg?ig_cache_k​ey=MTEzNzMwMzY5MjA2NDM3NjIzNA%3D%3D.2
20:47 tenplus1 when mt caches media, does it unpack images or leave them as compressed png ?
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20:48 paramat https://github.com/paramat/snowdrift is now a snowfall / rainfall weather mod with sound and overcast cloud. matched to biomes of all non-mgv6 mapgens
20:49 Shara paramat: blue or grey rain now? :P
20:49 tenplus1 nite all :P
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20:53 Fixer nice
20:53 Fixer will try
20:57 paramat very pale blue, textures may be improved
21:00 Shara paramat: hmm, might try to use it for something
21:01 sofar paramat: could look nice with one of the dark skyboxes
21:01 Shara sofar: you're reading my mind
21:11 Fixer paramat: very few particles
21:16 paramat only a plain colour skybox can smoothly change brightness across day-nght transitions
21:17 nore paramat: semi-transparent skyboxes + background
21:17 paramat that's the special feature
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21:17 nore well that would make smooth changes
21:18 paramat skybox has an alpha parameter but in testing it doesn't make the plain colour translucent unfortunately
21:19 Shara I wasn't even able to vary colour on default skybox while keeping sun/moon when I checked before.
21:20 paramat i wouldn't use those real-life photo skyboxes anyway, they are beautiful sky photos yes, but look wrong in MT
21:20 Shara depends what you're aiming for
21:21 paramat maybe with HD photo-realistic textures
21:21 benrob0329 Just got done visiting thr Creation
21:21 benrob0329 *Creation Museum
21:22 benrob0329 Highly recommended, including the planetarium
21:24 Fixer paramat: if under tree there is no precip rendered at all
21:28 paramat hehe
21:28 Fixer paramat: 16/32 particles is a joke
21:28 paramat the big problem with weather mods is, how to detect when outside?
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21:29 paramat this samples light level, 15 = outside
21:29 paramat with the funny result that it stops raining when you go inside
21:30 sofar nore: we just need to write a 'transition' api
21:30 benrob0329 But it should rain out the window
21:30 benrob0329 Perhaps if rain was per mapblock
21:30 nore sofar: hmmm
21:30 paramat MT particles are not very lightweight, so number of particles is set to a minimum by default, you can adjust that
21:31 nore I was thinking maybe about allowing to set the sky color texture as well
21:31 nore (the texture that maps time to color)
21:31 Fixer paramat: tried 64 particles, somewhat better but with snow fps goes down to 55...
21:32 benrob0329 Wait, what if the airblock was just modified?
21:32 paramat yeah ideally collision detection should be on, then maybe sample light high above the player (above the roof)
21:33 paramat now you know why i minimised number of particles :]
21:33 nerzhul for weather part, don't do it server side, it should be fully implemeted client side, and best: use shaders and detect if a player is outside or not
21:33 benrob0329 If light level == 15, and raining == true, texture = raining_animated
21:35 paramat yeah i know CSM will be good for weather, but i'm working with current stable MT abilities, and my mods are always written for last stable
21:35 Fixer https://i.imgur.com/FgCRjuI.jpg game from 2001 can into particles hitting fps cap (30 fps), minetest in 2017 on core i3 can't render damn 64 particles without huge penalty
21:35 paramat i will never rely on shaders, too much performance drain, many turn them off completely
21:36 benrob0329 MT needs help from experienced OGL programmers
21:36 paramat yes our particles need work, and irrlicht particles are needed
21:36 benrob0329 Shaders could be just as fast as fixed, if they were optimized
21:37 Fixer https://i.imgur.com/SXv3kcj.jpg year 2001
21:38 * benrob0329 mumbles about asking the Antarctica devs for help
21:38 Fixer and i played this 16 years ago on that hardware
21:38 Fixer 900mhz cpu and gf2mx
21:39 benrob0329 Heh, Source Engine particles arw better
21:39 Fixer this screenshot alone has _hundreds_ of particles
21:41 Fixer close to 300
21:42 Fixer around 280 for rain
21:47 Fixer "How to run Microsoft Edge on Windows 7"
21:47 benrob0329 *facedesk*
21:52 Fixer "RebootBlocker is a free program for Windows 10 that prevents automatic reboots after the installation of updates on Windows 10 systems."
21:53 Fixer you gotta be kidding me /o
21:53 benrob0329 Heh
22:04 Fixer reminder https://pbs.twimg.com/media​/C9WP6YkU0AEGXsl.jpg:large
22:10 Fixer joined #minetest-hub
22:24 paramat forum spammer https://forum.minetest.net/memberli​st.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=21013 VanessaE Calinou
22:29 benrob0329 So many people complaining about the name..
22:29 benrob0329 I don't think they realise how difficult and painful a name change is
22:42 Jordach >Jabber:asdasdasda.fasfasfdasdasd@yandex.ru
22:42 Jordach top keks
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23:14 Fixer lol
23:19 Calinou paramat: done
23:20 Calinou benrob0329: trying this out btw, https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Knee-Deep_in_ZDoom
23:20 Calinou they actually put… a trailer in the game
23:20 Calinou quite impressive, I didn't know this was possible
23:21 Calinou dynamic skybox, slopes, etc
23:21 benrob0329 Calinou: interesting
23:21 Calinou seems to work ok in Zandronum
23:21 Calinou (it's a multiplayer-oriented ZDoom fork)
23:21 Calinou too lazy to install GZDoom :P
23:22 Calinou there's also security cameras à la Duke Nukem 3D, nice
23:27 Fixer paramat: why rain drops are so slow?
23:27 Fixer paramat: increase their falling speed a bit
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23:27 Fixer paramat: no sound fading :(
23:28 Fixer paramat: particles do not respect your move, when i move towards them, there is no drift to me
23:29 wayward1 joined #minetest-hub
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23:29 Fixer paramat: are there weather variability or it depends on biomes only?
23:29 Fixer paramat: snow/rain particles look a bit large
23:29 Fixer paramat: especially snow
23:29 paramat thanks
23:30 paramat particles are relative to the world not to the player
23:31 Fixer right, but then if i move they should go closer to me, yet they are relative to player it feels
23:31 Fixer maybe i'm wrong
23:31 paramat they do move towards you if you move forwards
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23:31 paramat raindrop speed is realistic but looks slow for some reason, but 10 might be better
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23:32 paramat sound fading may be possible, i might try
23:32 Fixer not related https://i.imgur.com/ZtniAtX.jpg
23:33 paramat precipitation does start and stop with time, as well as being affected by temp and humidity
23:34 paramat particle pixels are matched to world pixels, so to have an interesting structure snowflakes have to be large
23:37 Fixer if i increase velocity to -32 i can see they come in batches
23:37 Fixer for rain*
23:38 Fixer paramat: precipitation for the poor
23:40 paramat yes due to the 0.5s globalstep cycle
23:40 paramat you could reduce the cycle time instead
23:40 paramat GSCYCLE
23:40 paramat -10 is a rough max for real rain
23:41 Fixer eh... waiting for CSM weather with lots of particles :)
23:41 paramat particles need work first
23:42 Jordach paramat, is there an engine call for sky_visible(pos)
23:42 benrob0329 Particles_redo >:-)
23:43 Fixer paramat: seeing 32 slow rain particles makes me very depressing since no good rains IRL
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23:50 Jordach paramat, >local outside = minetest.get_node_light(ppos, 0.5) == 15
23:50 Jordach *nice*
23:50 * Jordach figured out a possible way of safe spawning
23:51 Jordach >random x,y position
23:51 Jordach >send that with +-32 on all pos.x/y/z
23:51 Jordach >use minetest.emerge_area()
23:51 Jordach >wait a few seconds
23:51 Jordach >then do checks at the center area
23:53 paramat there's no sky_visible API, but light = 15 means under open sky

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