Time Nick Message 01:43 * benrob0329 pops in 01:44 VanessaE hi 01:44 benrob0329 Hello 01:45 benrob0329 What is everybody up to? 01:45 VanessaE been coding off and on today, and now just winding down from a long day (unrelated) 01:56 benrob0329 I 01:56 benrob0329 'm just settling down as well 03:20 paramat celeron55 Shara please can we make a small effort to avoid excessive offtopic in this channel? i agree offtopic should be allowed and i don't mind some, but recently i had to scroll through 14 log pages of OS and smartphone talk (one conversation). there's often more offtopic here than in minetest channel 03:21 paramat can we have a reminder in the channel header and at the webpage about avoiding excessive offtopic? 03:23 paramat it's not just a problem when scanning logs, when in-channel there can be too much offtopic stuff to filter through to find MT related stuff, it's a waste of peoples' time 03:24 benrob0329 Perhaps #minetest should be the main chat channel 03:24 paramat it's the offtopic channel already 03:24 benrob0329 And this should be for more on topic conversation 03:25 benrob0329 But have that be the full consensus 03:25 paramat then we had this post http://irc.minetest.net/minetest-hub/2017-04-11#i_4869167 in hub 03:25 paramat babe-posting 03:26 paramat to be clear i amnot asking for anything strict as i like how relaxed it is here, i encourage some offtopic and certainly humour 03:26 benrob0329 O_O 03:28 paramat but i thing people should, at a certain point, think 'better take this to minetest' 03:30 paramat *think 03:32 paramat the good thing about minetest is that i know i don't have to scan the logs vecause i know i usually will not miss important stuff, but -hub has important dev stuff so i have to scan logs 03:33 paramat *because 03:34 paramat even minetest channel has a note about avoiding excessive offtopic 03:36 paramat just seen these at minetest.net, applying to all channels: "The channels are not playgrounds and are frequently used for talks which are not off-topic." "Off-topic is allowed, but excessive use of it is disallowed." 03:36 paramat ^ those need to be enforced in this channel 03:38 paramat see the info for this channel http://hub.minetest.net/info for it to function as intended we cannot have unrestrained offtopic 03:42 paramat i often avoid minetest channel to escape endless immature chatter, but obviously cannot avoid this channel as important MT topics are here 03:49 * Sokomine says hi to paramat and hides quickly because that's offtopic as well 03:49 paramat hehe 03:50 paramat that's exactly the strictness i do not want :] 03:50 paramat hi btw 03:51 Sokomine :) it's really tricky, yes. some offtopic is needed so that we all feel well here. too much and the important topics are lost 03:53 sofar nore: re: server config panel: add `timed` `shutdown` button [ 5] minutes + announce? 03:53 nore hmm, I could do that, but it's not really configuration 03:54 nore also, announce is a minetest.conf setting I think 03:57 paramat nore any comments on game#1695 ? 03:57 paramat oops wrong channel 04:00 nore paramat: what does your comment on game#1696 mean btw? 04:00 nore ah, didn't see sofar's answer :) 04:02 paramat i wasn't aware of all the features 04:02 paramat was just concerned it was a 1-issue hasty reaction 04:03 paramat it isn't 04:24 sofar nore: should we do the modstorage API think for `config` like I did in `timer`? 04:24 sofar iow, store the actual setting into the mod calling instead of the `config` mod? 04:36 nore sofar: I use the Settings API, not mod storage 04:37 nore So it all goes into world.conf 04:37 sofar well, gee, I suppose then 04:39 nore I mean, world.conf seems a suitable place for all these settings to me 04:45 sofar hmmm well 04:45 sofar ideally these settings are part of the mod 04:45 sofar what happens if you uninstall the mod? 04:45 sofar the settings stays 04:45 sofar right? 04:57 sofar btw 04:57 sofar all my servers have a dedicated minetest.conf for each world 04:57 sofar I don't even know if using /set xxxx in the game works with that 04:57 sofar my guess is not 05:02 octacian Night all 05:02 octacian BTW, sofar: didn't get updates done today. All I can say is I'll do it before feature freeze 05:05 sofar hahaha 05:05 sofar flw 05:07 nore yes, the setting stays if you uninstall a mod 05:07 nore which is, I think, the behaviour you want 05:07 sofar I seem to recall that CSM had `find_nodes_near` 05:08 sofar am I just seeing things? 05:08 nore I'm not sure about that 05:09 sofar find_node_near! 05:09 sofar I had to dump _G lmao 05:10 nore you can also look in src/script :) 05:12 nore what, you don't even have get_node? 05:12 sofar you do 05:12 sofar but I need find_nodes_near or find_nodes_in_area 05:13 nore I see only get_timeofday, get_day_count, get_node_max_level, get_node_level and find_node_near 05:13 sofar yup 05:13 nore (in ModApiEnvMod::InitializeClient) 05:13 nore so you can't use get_node? 05:13 sofar yes you can 05:13 sofar just fine, too 05:13 sofar but I'm gonna scan like 32^3 05:14 nore but but... it's not declared as API_FCT? 05:14 sofar right 05:14 nore it's in l_client.cpp 05:14 nore okaaaay 05:17 nore red-002: if you know why I'd be interested ^ 05:17 sofar OHHHH 05:17 sofar csm doesn't load textures from CSM mods 05:18 sofar that or I'm doing something wrong 05:20 sofar http://i.imgur.com/CrreF0S.png 05:20 sofar client side animated torch particles 05:20 sofar but the texture isn't loaded 05:20 sofar (this works server side and shows animated particles) 05:23 sofar yeah, confirmed 05:23 sofar if I throw the texture into a server-side mod, the texture loads 05:30 sofar https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=mbjmN8u7eZo 05:32 nore sofar: broken link 05:33 sofar ah, edit link 05:35 sofar gimme sec 05:39 sofar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUuNY3TAJqs 05:40 sofar geesh, choppy stream at 60fps 05:40 nore yeah :/ 05:41 sofar I'll set it to 30 again 05:41 sofar that was decent 05:43 sofar anyway, we can now do node ambiance in CSM 05:43 sofar fire sounds can become CSM 05:43 sofar etc. 05:51 sofar 7000 lifetime views so far 06:26 Zeno` Jordach, is your horse mod public? 06:27 Jordach wat 06:27 Zeno` mob* 06:27 Zeno` maybe I was mistaken... I thought you wrote a horse mob 06:46 sofar red-002: did you see my comments about CSM assets in the particle PR? 06:47 Jordach sofar, NICE STREAM 06:47 sofar lol 06:47 sofar which one? 06:47 sofar the linked one above? 06:49 Jordach http://irc.minetest.net/minetest-hub/2017-04-12#i_4870760 06:49 * Jordach gets the picture 06:50 sofar the particle effect on torches? 06:50 Jordach yes 06:50 sofar yeah, that was my PoC to test the CSM particle PR 06:50 sofar found a bug in it, obviously 06:51 sofar nerzhul: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5394#issuecomment-293489857 06:57 nerzhul sofar, this is a known issue, maybe you can provide a pr ? :p 06:57 sofar I barely have time to review PRs 06:59 sofar https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4981#issuecomment-293491156 06:59 sofar bummer, seems broken? 06:59 sofar note the breath bubbles also don't go away 07:00 * sofar & bed, ugh 07:05 Jordach http://i.imgur.com/pxA7Qzx.jpg 07:27 Jordach why is paramat awake at 8 am 07:27 Jordach that question also applies to me too 07:28 paramat i'm out of phase 07:45 nerzhul paramat, i fixed the warning on duplicate macro you mentionned, it's very strange that changing the code style with clang trigger a warning due to duplicate macro usage 07:45 paramat thanks 07:54 nerzhul VanessaE, on https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5475 i added support for removing player files on the files backend compat layer :) (but when this will be merged everybody should migrate to sqlite or postgresql) 07:58 Krock then we'll have backends that shouldn't be used? 07:59 nerzhul Krock, we statuate with sofar and sfan5 we should keep file backend for 1 release but encourage server owners to migrate to sqlite or postgresql themselves (a huge warning with a HOWTO is shown at player startup) 08:01 nerzhul then default is file backend but they have 1 release to make their switch manually, on next release we will drop player backend usage and only keep the migration method, which will migrate to sqlite by default if not configuration is specified 08:02 nerzhul after release +1 then players will be stored into database 08:02 nerzhul (not accounts yet, it's a little bit difficult for accounts) 08:02 nerzhul bit more* 08:03 nerzhul on my server i have accounts into database since 2 years but i dropped lua auth handler 08:13 Krock overall LGTM but it's a very big diff :3 08:16 Krock also seen the warning message. explains everything that's required. nice 08:18 nerzhul yeah, good user documentation is important as it's a very big change :) 08:19 nerzhul for the diff size, no real choice, there is many things to rework to have a proper player loading because current loading is crappy and works by chance :p 08:57 red-002 sofar you can load media for csm mods using texturepacks 08:57 red-002 but I agree thats only a work around 08:58 red-002 it doesn't work for sounds iirc 09:46 shivajiva Morning Darcidride :) 10:04 Megaf G'Day. 10:43 CWz Ubuntu Precise will pass on soon 10:43 CWz rip 10:44 CWz You were the most Precise Pangolin in this part of the world 10:45 CWz may the karmic koala guide your soul to the after-life. 10:49 Calinou finally 10:50 * Megaf don't get why people still using Ubuntu 10:51 Megaf Debian FTW 10:51 Megaf or at least Linux Mint Debian Edition 10:51 Calinou uh 10:51 Calinou better user experience, strict deadline releases, commercial support, longer support 10:51 Calinou saner defaults 10:52 Calinou slightly more recent software (on even years) 10:52 Megaf based on unstable software, not well tested, weak security standards, not consistent in package selection/default UI 10:52 Megaf they are even going to drop Unity and MIR 10:53 Megaf Not to mention they spy on you and sell your data 10:53 Megaf and the ads! 10:53 Megaf Ubuntu is no better than Windows 10 10:53 Calinou ads are not a thing in official Ubuntu derivatives 10:53 Calinou …lol 10:53 Calinou they also perform almost no tracking on the derivatives 10:53 Calinou them dropping Unity is a good decision 10:53 Calinou it doesn't mean they're complete shit 10:53 Megaf I know 10:54 Megaf I'm just saying you can have all Ubuntu have (The good stuff) on other distros, without all the drawbacks 10:54 Calinou plain Debian is pretty cumbersome 10:54 Megaf give a try to LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition) or OpenMandriva. You'd be surprized. 10:54 Calinou you need a special ISO to get the firmware included, for example 10:55 Calinou hey, I happen to use Manjaro and I also like Fedora 10:55 Calinou but those distros are not for absolute beginners 10:55 Calinou they have to start somewhere 10:55 Megaf Calinou, I've been using Debian as default OS for the past 5 years. 10:55 Megaf no problems with firmwares 10:55 Megaf even the Playstation 3 EyeCam just works 10:56 Megaf all you need is apt install firmware-linux-nonfree, done, problems solved 10:56 Calinou lots of aspects are also poorly documented 10:56 Calinou that won't work if you use a netinstaller and need Wi-Fi 10:56 Calinou that's why you need an ISO with firmware shipped on it 10:56 Calinou and… it's not the default since Debian 6 for obscure reasons 10:56 Megaf I agree on the wifi during install, but that is all with all OSes that respect open source software 10:57 Megaf so, that's why you can use LMDE 10:57 Calinou LMDE is hardly-maintained crap, last time I tried it 10:57 Calinou buggy as hell :P 10:57 Calinou getting support for it must be pretty tough a swell 10:57 Megaf or just use Debian ISO with nonfree included 10:57 Calinou (not many users) 10:57 Megaf Fedora will be even worse than Debian on the firmware thing 10:58 Megaf I remember trying to use Fedora for years and never been able to play mp3... 10:58 Megaf without using third parties repos 11:07 Megaf Anyway, just give a try to the latest OpenMandriva 11:07 Megaf an unbiased try. 11:08 Megaf without prejudgement 11:08 Megaf might be one of the closest things to macOS and Windows out there 11:21 paramat MegaF Calinou please can we avoid excessive offtopic here? 11:22 Krock 40 lines are excessive? 11:24 Calinou isn't this an offtopic channel? 12:33 paramat it's obviously not an offtopic channel, but offtopic is ok in moderation 12:37 Jordach Megaf, ooooo techmoan video 12:40 celeron55 no this isn't an offtopic channel 12:41 celeron55 i and Shara were thinking what to add to the info page and concluded that maybe something like "Please keep offtopic discussions short (under 50 lines)" would work 12:42 celeron55 that offtopic discussion was quite close to 50 lines; i wonder if it's a good limit 12:43 * RobbieF begins typing a 50 line essay about Bananas. 12:45 Fixer RobbieF: about this? http://bananas.openttd.org/en I wonder if minetest can have smth like that 12:46 RobbieF No, no Fixer. Much too on-topic. I was thinking more along the lines of http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i363/scooterr98/Icons/170422_dancing_banana.gif 13:02 Krock RobbieF, I used to see that one in pixel art 13:04 RobbieF :D 13:04 RobbieF classic 13:04 RobbieF but damnit Krock, you just made it relevant again... 13:04 RobbieF gah! 13:04 RobbieF :D 13:04 Krock >:D 13:29 paramat yeah indeed that discussion was only borderline excessive, i was just trying to stop it before it became that 13:29 Krock but the topic was already dead for an hour. 13:30 Krock RobbieF, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ox5BvF9y7M 13:31 paramat ok, i didn't know that when i looked at the channel 13:31 RobbieF haha Krock - some people have WAY too much free time :D 13:31 RobbieF hehe 13:37 paramat i don't think specifying lines is needed, people are smart enough to keep it moderate 13:40 Megaf [13:37:15] <Jordach> Megaf, ooooo techmoan video 13:40 Megaf the one about the portable reel? 13:41 Megaf [13:43:10] * RobbieF begins typing a 50 line essay about Bananas. 13:41 Megaf LOL 13:42 Megaf RobbieF, is the essay ready yet? 13:43 Megaf whos wants a free VPS? It will have 99% downtime, no internet connection and no access to the world 13:44 Megaf no ssh and no remote access 13:44 Megaf but its free 13:44 Megaf 64 MB of RAM, one core limited to 1% of CPU use, and 128 MB for disk use 13:44 RobbieF :D Megaf, getting there. 13:45 Megaf RobbieF, make it 40 lines long, so we have some lines to discuss about it. 13:45 CWz kek 13:45 CWz sounds like hosting in my country 13:46 CWz they still sell webhosting packages with less than 1 GB storage space 13:46 Megaf Because people buy 13:47 RobbieF that'd be ideal for a cronjob server :D 13:47 RobbieF if it has ssh access 13:47 * CWz thinks this unlimited hosting packages are somekind of trick 13:50 RobbieF https://cat5.tv/dreamhost Mmmmmm 13:50 RobbieF Has ssh access so I use it to run a bunch of our behind-the-scenes magic 13:50 RobbieF (cronjobs) 13:56 Fixer Krock: what is the faith of https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5268 ? 14:03 Krock Fixer, the protocol bump, I guess? 14:08 Jordach Sokomine, http://i.imgur.com/8PXntdq.png 14:09 Jordach this grass any better 14:09 * Jordach keeps refining until it looks best 14:09 Krock TeamViewer announces "Blizz", which is used for communicating and sharing desktops for people in the same group 14:09 Krock *opens link* 14:09 Krock Download broken 14:10 Krock They finished the newsletter once again faster than the feature itself 14:11 Jordach top kek 15:38 Sokomine Jordach: that's a far nicer grass texture now 16:40 Jordach sofar, https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/442b09/what_are_some_weirdstupid_tricks_you_have_done/cznaxpk/ 16:40 Jordach forward this to the core devs about formspecs and HUD 16:41 sofar tbf, we already use inventory UI for a lot of stuff 16:41 sofar crafting, cooking 16:41 sofar 3d armor uses it for clothing 16:41 Jordach sofar, i think the solution to hud and font scaling is to figure out the size when nothing is given for both font and pixel scaling 16:42 Jordach (eg 1 is 1:1 pixel scaling, eg, 1px on a 640x480 is the same as a 4k display) 16:42 Jordach but a 1:2 is a 2px on a 4k display, and takes up more room on the low sized screen 16:42 Jordach (MC does something very very very similar to that) 16:49 RobbieF Can we please get back to the banana discussion? I believe I still have 41 lines left. 16:49 RobbieF :D 16:49 RobbieF 40. 16:57 sofar 38 16:57 RobbieF :p 17:27 Shara Hello all 18:12 benrob0329 Hello Shara 18:19 sofar FYI I'm throwing pbj_pup into minetest-mods 18:21 * Wayward_One peeks in 18:23 benrob0329 *tardis crashes due to serialization.h error* 18:23 sofar https://github.com/minetest-mods/pbj_pup/tree/master/textures 18:24 sofar wheps 18:24 sofar https://github.com/minetest-mods/pbj_pup 18:42 RobbieF uh oh benrob0329 18:48 * benrob0329 is not available, please check back in the univers directly across from your own. 18:57 Sokomine adding the aspen trees to trees_lib was very easy. i think it would be worth getting it up to date with those changes to trees in mtg 19:05 Krock Poor man's house in ethereal: http://i.imgur.com/vJS5mns.png http://i.imgur.com/rAs8PLT.png 19:07 Sokomine well, better than a cobble shack. a bit simplistic perhaps 19:14 tenplus1 hi folks 19:16 Krock hello tenplus1 19:16 tenplus1 hi Krock, definitely a nuclear war :P 19:16 Krock hehe, you've seen it ^^ 19:16 tenplus1 funny :P 19:16 tenplus1 has everything calmed down since the other day ? 19:17 Krock uhm... I think so? 19:17 tenplus1 *phew* 19:17 Krock just the consistency of fire/TNT has been a discussion a day ago 19:17 tenplus1 consistency ??? 19:17 Krock but that one has burnt down, I think 19:17 tenplus1 heh 19:18 Krock yes, TNT is enabled by default in singleplayer but not in multiplayer 19:18 tenplus1 yeah, I like that... it saves server owners much hassle 19:18 Krock and there's a pull to adapt the same thing on fire, which resulted in a flamewar of coredevs vs server owners 19:19 tenplus1 who was against it (apart from Sofar, that was a given) 19:19 Krock uhm.. I'd have to look up the logs. I don't remember who was in this "group" 19:20 tenplus1 no worries, it's fine :P will flick through logs sometime and giggle 19:20 Krock I must say that I also wasn't very happy about it 19:21 tenplus1 http://lolsnaps.com/upload_pic/fef51504-growing-up-together.jpg 19:22 Krock me: "oh, why so small?" *looks how the image loads* 19:22 Krock apparently just very, very high 19:22 Krock cute :D 19:23 tenplus1 :P yeah 19:24 Shara Hi ten 19:25 tenplus1 Hi Shara :) 19:25 Shara Basically, apart from paramat, none of the devs agree with the server owners 19:25 Shara So now tnt will also be on by default on servers 19:25 tenplus1 nooooooooooo, took me forever to get that fkn pull included... 19:26 Shara Yea, well, I don't like it either. 19:26 Shara But MTG is apparently more focused on singleplayers and... that's that 19:27 tenplus1 *cough* fire Redo, TNT Redo... muhahahahahahahahah 19:27 Krock http://i.imgur.com/mvax652.jpg smooth_lighting = false 19:28 tenplus1 lol, is that the sun effect when it's directly overhead and casts no shadow at equator ? 19:28 Krock yes, taken in hawaii 19:28 tenplus1 :PPPPPP 19:28 tenplus1 knew I'd seen that someplace 19:29 tenplus1 if it's more focused on singleplayer then adding the change to disable damaging features on servers shouldn't be an issue :P 19:29 Krock Find all the reposters: https://tineye.com/search/1fad8e269a70bf3acd8b76b9a7dd9475c77ffd4f/ 19:31 Jordach if you want a multiplayer focused game 19:31 Jordach come on down 19:31 tenplus1 if minetest is currently singleplayer focuses then it needs a lot more added to the game... so for now it's multiplayer focuses with all the servers available..,. 19:34 tenplus1 *focused 19:34 Shara tenplus1: the argument was singleplayers might be playing lan then would lose fire, and their games would just be broken 19:36 tenplus1 if singleplayers connect over lan then it's multiplayer... 19:36 tenplus1 and it's up to whoever set it up to enable fire... 19:36 Krock This here must be related to minetest somehow: http://imgur.com/gallery/zZGYF 19:37 tenplus1 lol, seen it on lolsnaps.com :)) powerful fly 19:39 Krock indeed 19:42 Shara tenplus1: good luck convincing the devs :) 19:43 Shara I made the PR; I can't do more. 19:50 Sokomine oh? why would anyone be against turning off fire by default on servers? it can save a lot of new inexperienced server owners 19:50 tenplus1 +100 19:50 Shara Sokomine: check the PR 19:51 Krock -> https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/1693 19:51 Shara Also 19:51 Shara https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/1694 19:52 Sokomine better "broken" by no fire than work destroyed by fire 19:55 tenplus1 so many settings and functions being changed and backwards compatibility broken, then something good like this coming along and an all out flame war starts ?!?! *confused* 19:57 tenplus1 ya know, +1000 if the devs add a "GAME" tab that allows players to download custom games and use them for singleplayer and multiplayer 19:57 rubenwardy I was against it 19:57 tenplus1 that way even if we disagree over things like this, we can easily have a custom game that has the settings/features/mods we like 19:57 rubenwardy simply because it's inconsistent, and would cause confusion 19:58 Shara It did not feel inconsistent to me. 19:58 Shara And would have addressed an already existing inconsistency, but now the devs have decided to go the other way. 19:59 tenplus1 if a server owner see's the fire isnt spreading then first thing they do is check to see if it's enabled... that's not confusion 19:59 Krock oh shit. looks like this is going to become a flamewar again 19:59 Shara the argument was singleplayer people would play in lan and not know how to enable it, and it would break their worlds 19:59 * tenplus1 is simply talking calmy and clearly 19:59 benrob0329 No, no flamewars 19:59 tenplus1 it's a very easy setting to ENABLE... 20:00 tenplus1 but... for those who dont know any better, it's a life saver if griefers do attack the server with fire and tnt 20:00 Shara Krock: I don't get why people assume talk = war. 20:00 benrob0329 *cough* in game settings *cough* 20:01 tenplus1 it's either that or we add a gamemode switch for "creative", "survival", "easy" 20:01 tenplus1 each having it's own settings 20:01 Krock Shara, right now it's a calm talk but it's the perfect situation for people to get into this discussion, which may cause a flamewar easily 20:01 Shara If we disallow discussions because they 'might' get into a flamewar, then how can we have any discussion? 20:02 Krock Shara, I said nothing about diallowing. was just a comment from my side 20:02 Krock +s 20:03 Shara Yes, but not sure what else it can lead to 20:04 Krock I wouldn't know of any other cause, no. 20:04 tenplus1 smoething that confuses me though, sofar said "minetest.is_singleplayer() is considered bad. The flag specifies that the game was started in singleplayer mode. However, entirely functionally equal is a game that is started as a local LAN game" 20:05 tenplus1 I tested this and minetest.is_singleplayer() is only true during a singleplayer game, a LAN game comes up false 20:05 tenplus1 and a server comes up false 20:05 Krock tenplus1, and that's exactly the thing 20:05 Krock the thought is to make it the same for both 20:06 Krock so the players can customize their singleplayer world and open it to their friends with the same behaviour 20:06 Krock with needing to enable tnt manually 20:06 tenplus1 the way he put "functionally equal" to me kinda meant it came up true for lan games... badly worded prolly 20:06 Krock indeed 20:07 Shara well, he initially thought I'd disabled it for singleplayer too... 20:07 Shara So I guess he was rushing in general. 20:08 Shara I'm unlikely to make further PRs to MTG either way (not due to the refusal, but due to other things that were said), but since I'm not very active there anyway, not big loss. 20:08 Shara not a * 20:09 tenplus1 what else was said? 20:09 Shara I'd rather not repeat. 20:09 tenplus1 okie :) 20:09 Shara was somewhere other than here 20:12 sofar Shara: if you want, just ask me to make PRs and discuss changes you'd like to see 20:12 Shara sofar: I spoke to two devs before making the PR. 20:12 Shara If you really want to know why I think I won't make more 20:12 sofar there's certainly different minded people in the dev team as well 20:13 sofar paramat and me can bounce pretty hard on differences as well :) 20:13 Shara 1 - your comments on how server owners think it's okay to wreck games for all the little kids in the world 20:13 sofar but, we always rebound and work back together 20:13 Shara 2 - sfan's comments on my PR being "retarded" and "shit" 20:14 Shara I have a lot of respect for you guys - I'd like some back. 20:14 sofar well, my concerns are always technical 20:14 sofar I think sfan shares that sentiment 20:14 Fixer I missed everything again 20:14 sofar even if the language is harsh, it's about a solvable technical conflict 20:15 sofar I don't know how I phrased it 20:15 Shara Doesn't matter. There's really no need for it. You can just tell me "we don't like this PR becase " and that's fine. That why I can see the reaon and learn and know what could be better next time. 20:15 sofar I think I tried to explain that this channel is devoid of people who only play local lan games with their kids 20:15 Shara That way* 20:15 sofar I tried, but I got no response 20:16 sofar and only more pushback 20:16 Shara I was trying to understand your view too. 20:16 * tenplus1 has a personal server for nephews 20:16 sofar this is where I try to acknowledge peoples concerns as well 20:16 Shara But everyone just got 'shouty', which helps no one. 20:16 tenplus1 fire and tnt was the 1st thing they wanted REMOVED cause they would grief one another with it... their choice 20:16 sofar scottish kids, heh 20:16 tenplus1 ages 5 to 12 20:17 Shara I still don't understand how it breaks games. That was the part that got to me. 20:17 Shara But I think it's no big deal. It just shows MTG needs to pick a direction/focus. 20:17 sofar just removes something that was working before, that's all. 20:17 sofar maybe post 0.4.16 we can break and do that 20:18 Shara If that's singleplayer, it's fine by me. Just seems to tell me another official game as a base for servers really is needed 20:18 sofar I proposed a 3-way break 20:18 sofar retain minetest_game as legacy 20:18 sofar and make a modding base based on that 20:18 Shara Surely minetest_game is nicely on the path to becoming a full game anyway? 20:18 sofar and then a new singleplayer/local lan game 20:19 sofar it has too much baggage 20:19 tenplus1 'Minimal' should be a server game with only nodes registered... that allows server owners to enable/disable any mods in mtg 20:19 sofar some of it is soooo unworkable 20:19 Shara I really want to work on a base game for servers. 20:19 sofar minimal is a lost cause imho 20:19 Shara In fact, I plan to work on one. 20:19 tenplus1 not the current minimal... but a new one 20:19 Shara Even if it only ends up being used by me. 20:19 sofar mtg is a good start for multiplayer servers 20:19 sofar afk, meetings 20:20 tenplus1 mtg has so much ppl wanna disable./replace 20:20 Shara MTG is a terrible base for servers. 20:20 Fixer sofar: modularise 20:20 * Jordach looks at Solar Plains 20:20 * Jordach sips tea 20:20 Jordach not my business 20:21 * tenplus1 looks at Solar Plains... holds TNT 20:21 * Fixer already had tnt 20:21 tenplus1 :P 20:21 Fixer i mean tea 20:21 Fixer lol 20:21 * Shara wants tea now 20:22 tenplus1 again... a [game] tab added to the startup menu that allows players to browse current [games] and download/use them 20:22 Sokomine hmm. the strength of mt lies in its diversity of mods. that's particulary strong on servers. they all have their own sets of mods - subgames if you wish - with many things in common. but even those might not be shared by absolutely all servers. there are some servers out there that enable fire...they're the exception. there are some few servers who have decided against a /spawn command or no protect 20:22 Sokomine ion commands 20:23 Sokomine tenplus1: what else do people want to disable/replace in mtg on servers apart from destructive elements like fire, tnt, lavabuckets? 20:24 Sokomine a game tab might not be a bad idea, yes. currently subgames are a bit hidden. some work out very nice, and there's a lot of diversity. problem is that hardly anybody will declare the own subgame ready/finished - they're all in diffrent states of progress 20:24 tenplus1 many use UI and replace inventory 20:24 tenplus1 doors and farming mods get replaced by most 20:24 tenplus1 mapgens etc 20:24 Sokomine ah yes, that's true. i use ui in all my games (after i got used to it on vanessas servers) 20:25 tenplus1 if we had a "Minimal" game that registers only nodes and allows us to disable built-in mods to our hearts content it would be a great thing :) 20:25 rubenwardy UI would be so much nicer with a better background, icons, and spacing 20:25 Sokomine doors? hm. the standard doors are always present? there're usually just further ones added by other mods 20:26 tenplus1 *cough* Doors Redo... ehehehe... got my own key that I prefer 20:26 tenplus1 single door registry for open/locked and protected doors 20:28 Sokomine ah, ok. i'm planning to put the password protection part of my locks mod in a new mod and implement it diffrently. could be useful for maps with quests or all these teachers out there 20:28 tenplus1 good idea... 20:30 Shara I think MTG doors are fine as is, but would love to split keys from them 20:30 tenplus1 +1 20:31 Shara I'd also leave default as is (or at leats mostly) because so many mods use it for different things, and the point of having a base like this is that you can easily add mods as you wish. 20:31 Shara least* 20:43 Fixer i'm fine with tnt/fire enabled by default, admins can disable it or whatever, if server owner can't even disable tnt/fire in settings, something is wrong with that admin or minetest or both 20:43 Jordach consider giving fire a 100% ignition rate but a 800% increase in burn time 20:44 Jordach (eg, it takes about an hour+ for a reasonably sized forest) 20:44 * tenplus1 ignites fire in a 100% oxygen environment and fries his eyebrows 20:44 Krock making it spread slower is a good idea 20:45 Jordach i mean insanely slower 20:45 Jordach it means you get a chance to put it out before anything really happens 20:46 tenplus1 how about adding a flick switch in-game... /fire on/off and it removes on next abm update :) can easily be done 20:51 Wayward_One Hi all 20:52 tenplus1 hi wayward 20:52 Shara Hi Wayward_One 20:54 tenplus1 nite folks :) 21:27 sofar my idea for the `config` mod is to make those config updates all "live" changes 21:27 Jordach http://i.imgur.com/gwFZZYr.png 21:28 sofar fire off: you can make fire nodes, but they no longer spread or burn down other nodes 21:28 sofar fire on: whooosh! 21:28 Jordach sofar, lilacs grown wild 21:28 sofar tnt off: explosions only damage players 21:28 sofar tnt on: holes! 21:28 rubenwardy would be very useful to have register_on_setting_change to let /set be dynamic and efficient 21:28 sofar liquid flooding off: bucket water places flowing nodes only 21:28 sofar liquid flooding on: bucket water works as usual 21:29 Shara sofar: yes, such things could help 21:29 sofar rubenwardy: that's in the PR 21:29 sofar rubenwardy: there's a callback for each setting 21:29 sofar the trick is NOT to use minetest.conf as a backing 21:29 sofar it needs to be per *world* 21:30 sofar which the PR does, of course 21:30 sofar I'll take that to the max after 0.4.16 21:30 rubenwardy minetest.setting_set and /set should be per world, imo 21:31 sofar right, but, even if they were, they don't offer a callback notification 21:32 Krock rubenwardy, oh yay. smooth lights per world 21:32 Krock this would have to be split up somehow 21:33 sofar would you ever turn off smooth lights in a world? 21:33 Krock for debugging purposes only 21:33 sofar hmmm ic 21:41 sofar about the doors mod 21:42 sofar would you not want the API part to be in the modding base? 21:42 sofar I mean tenplus1 just duplicates it in *_redo 21:42 sofar but he essentially praises the API that way 21:43 Shara sofar: My only issue with doors is keys 21:43 Shara I would want to keep everything other than them for doors 21:43 sofar interesting 21:43 sofar I think keys can be a mod API that lies underneath doors and chests 21:44 sofar what do you use for doors, then? 21:44 Shara Yes, but they are simply not needed in a real base 21:44 Shara Since mods can add keys on top 21:44 sofar yeah but that's a fundamentally incorrect design 21:44 Shara So to me, that should be a choice compeltely left for the server owner 21:44 sofar a good design should accomodate it 21:44 Shara Hmm, can you explain why for me? 21:44 sofar needless to say the current design is broken too 21:44 Shara Not trying to be argumentative - just want to understand 21:44 * VanessaE peeks in 21:45 sofar so keys were an afterhought for me 21:45 sofar they kind of made it organically into the scheme of mtg 21:45 sofar so now it's a half-half API 21:45 Shara Hmm, it's just that as you pointed out before, they were sort of designed with singleplayer in mind 21:45 sofar what it should be, imho, is that doors build on top of the keys API 21:46 Shara WHich is fine, but when it comes to building a server, it's a whole different thing. 21:46 sofar forget about tenplus1's delirious concept of keys 21:46 Shara Is there any way to adjust the keys API to make different ways of handling keys possible? 21:46 sofar he means fine but they're not keys, they're essentially "locks" in his version 21:46 Shara Sorry, but I really like the end result of Ten's system, regardless of how it's achieved. 21:47 sofar he wants a "lock" api 21:47 sofar I want a "key" api 21:47 sofar they should be able to live side by side 21:47 Shara And no way to make them work together? 21:47 sofar not be exclusive 21:47 Shara Hah, same thought together :) 21:47 sofar ideally, they would work together as well 21:47 Shara But yes, this is what I'd like to see. 21:47 sofar the problem is, I've thought over "keys" a lot 21:47 sofar I've not thought over a "lock" API much since I'm not interested in it 21:48 sofar mostly because it imposes a UI that I don't like 21:48 Shara Hmm, all I can say is I have a busy server using it, and no one has complained. 21:48 sofar players will use what they get 21:48 Shara Yes, but I play myself, and I like it 21:48 sofar did you give people the mtg keys? 21:49 Shara And actually, I have players who can be pretty vocal if they don't like my mod choices. 21:49 Shara No, but many of them are familiar with them. 21:49 sofar well of course, MP is a different game as well 21:49 Shara Keep in mind, my target audiance for servers isn't kiddies, or not only kdidies anyway 21:49 Shara kiddies* 21:50 sofar I do tend to favor developing for singleplayer/lan play 21:50 Shara I get quite a few people who are moderators/admins elsewhere playing my survival for example. 21:50 sofar question 21:50 Shara So it's people who have some experience with different mod possibilities. 21:50 sofar does tenplus1's "locks" also work on chests? 21:50 Shara I believe so. 21:50 Shara I can do a quick test if you give me a moment 21:51 sofar do you remove the default chests and from the game ? 21:51 Shara Don't think so. 21:51 Jordach Shara, sofar, Solar Plains is biased to multiplayer but is happy with singleplayer as well 21:52 Shara sofar, if you want to test the locks in action, feel free to check on Dark Lands to save setting it up yourself. Can grant any privs you need for testing it. 21:52 sofar at work, can't play 21:52 Shara Okay 21:53 Jordach sofar, backdoor the intel firmware to make MC run like ass, Kappa 21:53 Jordach (i'm being sarcastic this evening, go figure) 21:53 Shara Hmm, no, doesn't seem to work on chests 21:53 Shara I had thought it did for some reason. 21:54 sofar Jordach: I'd like for them to make MT faster 21:54 Jordach top kek 21:54 Jordach you know optimisation goes into code and not IPC 21:54 Jordach (considering Intel chips make MT already hugely faster than AMD FX9XXX) 21:56 Shara I don't think I ever felt a need to change a chest between locked and unlocked, now that I think about it. 21:56 Shara WHich isn't to say there shouldn't be a way to 21:57 sofar Shara: that was one of my problems with the "lock" tool method 21:57 sofar fundamentally, you want chests to always be locked 21:57 sofar (on a MP server) 21:57 Shara yea 21:57 sofar the "lock" tool does what, then? 21:57 Shara Shared chests are possible with this set up when using protectors, which I found works well 21:58 Shara Adding someone to the protection enables them to access a protected chest 21:58 sofar that's the UI part - the user interaction is just weird 21:58 sofar "giving them a physical key" is what you do in the real world 21:58 sofar which is what I wrote 21:58 sofar that's a nice UI 21:58 Shara I find it pretty intuitive to be honest. But maybe there are other ways to handle it all 21:58 Shara Problem is - too many physical keys 21:59 sofar yes, it needs a "keyring" 21:59 Shara Because inventory management can become hell 21:59 sofar I think that could solve the problem permanently. If you had a keyring item that had all your keys on them, you'd probably use it 22:00 Shara I'd have to play for abit with it to get a feel for it, in all honesty 22:00 Shara It owuld certainly help 22:00 sofar the thing you need to keep in mind is that it works without any formspecs 22:00 sofar and encourages players to trade objects/items 22:01 * Jordach autistically screeches 22:01 Shara But... if you force that into a base game, it's back to the starting point, because existing servers may well want to keep their current approach 22:01 sofar that's fine 22:01 sofar if we do a modding base I'll likely rewrite it 22:01 Shara I see a base game as being as minimal as possible 22:01 sofar and make it a standalone API 22:01 Shara Yea, that would be a good thing in general 22:02 Jordach it seems like sofar thinks like i do 22:02 Jordach can't go wrong if you re-write everything ;) 22:02 sofar actually I'd put it in the singleplayer game first 22:02 sofar Jordach: I've seen enough shit in my lifetime 22:02 sofar it doesn't matter how nice and great it works. 2 years later nobody will understand your code 22:03 sofar I'm 100% sure I'll redo the door code again 22:03 Sokomine Shara: hm. my chesttools-mod adds an option to upgrade chests. access to the shared variant there is based on who can build in the area. that access system was afaik first seen on landrush and is more practical than per-chest-based access 22:03 Jordach sofar, i usually leave 1-3 comments per segment 22:03 Shara Well, I am pretty much committed to working on my own 'base game' at this point. Whether or not it proves helpful to anyone else is another thing. 22:03 Shara Sokomine: Yes, I like that kind of access system. It's similar to wha I use currently. 22:03 Shara what* 22:04 Shara If you have access to the protection on an area, you can open doors/chest tied to that protection 22:05 Sokomine sofar: my locks mod has a keyring. but that's only the token that allows you to access other peoples locks. no troube with lost keys or griefing through keys ending up in the wrong hands 22:05 sofar oh 22:05 sofar one thing to keep in mind 22:05 sofar I intend to redo the `minetest.is_protected()` interface entirely after 0.4.16 22:05 sofar especially for multiplayer 22:05 Shara Will it break mods? 22:06 sofar everything 22:06 Fixer ERROR https://pastebin.com/raw/87vXbG0P 22:06 Fixer placed homedecor door, rotated with screwdriver - tried to open - error 22:06 Shara I don't know if I can handle rewriting more broken mods 22:06 sofar Fixer: new stairs placement code? 22:06 Fixer yes 22:06 sofar fixing the mods should be simple 22:07 sofar replace `minetest.is_protected` with a different function call 22:07 Fixer engine at commit 1399678 22:07 sofar Fixer: file issue :) 22:07 Fixer to who? 22:07 Fixer vanessa or mth? 22:07 Fixer g 22:07 Shara Hmm, okay 22:07 Sokomine sofar: why rename it if it will be just a diffrent function name? 22:07 sofar uh, not minetest_game? 22:07 Fixer 12 apr build 22:08 sofar because it will need a new parameter 22:08 Jordach sofar, Shara: cut the legacy bs, start anew 22:08 Shara Headache for me is that mods seem to be kept in line with current dev, and I prefer to keep mine working with stable release 22:08 Fixer sofar: so to whom i need to file an issue? 22:09 sofar Fixer: I dunno, maybe it's a screwdriver bug? 22:09 Fixer will try on vanilla ok 22:09 sofar Fixer: can you repro with just minetest_game without homedecor? 22:09 sofar Shara: problem is: 22:09 Sokomine and what will the new parameter do? i had to check if an area is protected at all (by checking with a fictional impossible name) for the shared chests to work properly. would have been bad if anyone could use them on unprotected lan 22:09 Fixer sofar: in vanilla doors are not rotated 22:10 Shara I really dislike that doors no longer rotate 22:10 Fixer yep 22:10 sofar can be fixed, just needs code to support (complex, complex code) 22:10 sofar I didn't want to 22:11 Fixer will post in homedecor 22:11 sofar heck I'm not even sure if I'll make doors 2-high nodes again in the future 22:12 Fixer .__. 22:13 shivajiva plans to make a player 1 node tall? 22:13 Fixer WAIT A SECOND 22:14 Fixer *towelly mode* 22:14 benrob0329 Proper crouch 22:14 Jordach sofar, my doors are one node with a box that coves two 22:14 benrob0329 ctrl vs shift would be nice 22:15 sofar how do you block liquids from going into the top half? 22:15 Fixer sofar: minetest_game bug :D 22:15 Jordach sofar, since it's a doors+ port 22:15 Jordach l m a o 22:15 Fixer sofar: opening door with stair or slab triggers it 22:15 Fixer kek 22:15 sofar slab placement bug then I think 22:15 sofar mtg bug, for sure 22:16 benrob0329 Shift being crouch, ctrl being crawl 22:16 sofar everytime someone makes a _plus or _redo mod, god kills a kitten 22:16 benrob0329 Or shift/sneak, ctrl/crouch 22:16 sofar (if course, I'm an atheist so it's irrelevant) 22:16 Fixer sofar: _reredo 22:17 Shara _reredoplus 22:17 Shara (sorry, had to) 22:17 benrob0329 stairs_redo_redo_plus_plus 22:17 Jordach or just me do it and it'll be 95% less idiotic 22:18 sofar oh I'll take jordach's code any day 22:18 Jordach :D 22:18 benrob0329 Then do it. 22:18 nore this discussion makes me think that there are tons of bugs with multi-node nodes 22:18 benrob0329 DO IT 22:18 nore so what needs to be done 22:18 sofar nore: actually, I've even considered making vmanip-based doors 22:18 nore is to make an *universal* API for them 22:18 sofar arbitrary node/shape 22:18 * Jordach autistically screeches 22:19 sofar Jordach: you know, my son has autism 22:19 Jordach i do too 22:19 Jordach :^) 22:19 sofar he doesn't screech, though 22:19 Jordach sofar, i use it jokingly 22:19 Jordach i've seen worse, trust me 22:19 nore that allows placing/rotating such nodes, using *one node for each part* so that collision and line of sight has no problems 22:19 Fixer sofar: thats 4chan for you, or what he reads 22:19 sofar it does make me sad to be reminded of it 22:20 Jordach Fixer, well, stuck in a school with blatant retards for 7 years does a number on my neurons 22:20 Jordach there's like 6 functioning ones, including me 22:20 sofar maybe when my son gets a little older, you can talk to him about your experiences then 22:21 Fixer how i'm supposed to place a vertical slab now? :trollface: 22:21 Jordach at least he doesn't have PTSD and gigantic memory holes as a result of it 22:21 Fixer shit, opened door with slab again 22:21 Jordach lul 22:21 sofar Fixer: can't 22:22 sofar that was taken out entirely 22:22 Fixer oh well, i will use screwdriver 22:22 Fixer once 22:22 Fixer and that is good 22:23 Fixer i like this new system sof ar 22:23 * Jordach kek'd 22:24 sofar j o a a f 22:25 Jordach sofar, [23:24:47] huh, i found ugly rainbow dog flying in caverealm 22:25 * Jordach lmaos 22:25 sofar ahaha 22:25 sofar tell them to eat the blocks 22:26 * Jordach looks at current stairs code 22:27 benrob0329 Jordach, if you don't come back in 5 minutes, I'm gonna call for help 22:28 Jordach benrob0329, don't worry 22:28 Jordach i re-wrote beds for god sake 22:28 Jordach you really don't want to look at that mess 22:28 benrob0329 I already have, sometimes I even have flashbacks 22:28 sofar I'm still rinsing my eyes with hydrofloric acid 22:28 Jordach https://github.com/Jordach/Solar_Plains/blob/master/mods/beds/init.lua vs 22:28 Jordach https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/master/mods/beds/functions.lua 22:29 Jordach bonus: there's no backwards compat 22:30 Jordach mods shouldn't do that 22:30 Jordach another backup optional mod should deal with backporting old blocks 22:30 benrob0329 Granted, my code probably isn't much better 22:33 Jordach sofar, X99 for my next PC? 22:34 Jordach just go overkill 22:34 benrob0329 I'm using x99 in mine, it works 22:34 * Jordach needs more power 22:35 benrob0329 POWER!! 22:35 sofar Jordach: ha, I have something better 22:35 Jordach https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygBP7MtT3Ac 22:35 sofar Jordach: 990x 22:36 sofar grin, they're getting old 22:36 benrob0329 Does that even exist yet? 22:36 benrob0329 I mean, officially 22:36 sofar 990x? 22:36 sofar yes, of course 22:36 sofar https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjr2-qi_Z_TAhVFHGMKHRBoDqUQFggaMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fark.intel.com%2Fproducts%2F52585%2FIntel-Core-i7-990X-Processor-Extreme-Edition-12M-Cache-3_46-GHz-6_40-GTs-Intel-QPI&usg=AFQjCNHjNH7nJ5snWnGNIMwS38eScL7NTw&bvm=bv.152180690,d.cGc 22:36 sofar fuuu google link 22:36 sofar https://ark.intel.com/products/52585/Intel-Core-i7-990X-Processor-Extreme-Edition-12M-Cache-3_46-GHz-6_40-GTs-Intel-QPI 22:37 sofar (I have 2 of those) 22:37 * benrob0329 would probably have to buy a new motherboard 22:37 Jordach sofar, my i5 4690 would likely stomp em 22:37 sofar launched: q1'11 22:37 benrob0329 oh 22:37 * benrob0329 is lazy and didn't look at the links 22:38 Jordach 990x scores similar to an i7 4790k 22:38 Jordach on a benchmark 22:38 sofar http://foo-projects.org/~sofar/nbench-scores.txt 22:39 benrob0329 i7 5930k in my desktop, I'm probably going to upgrade my gpu before I get a new cpu 22:39 Jordach sofar, Intel Core i7-4790 is almost the same as my 4690 22:40 sofar yes, so, about 50% faster than the 990x 22:40 sofar for single-core 22:40 Jordach my BIOS will allow this thing to go beyond 4ghz with an OC 22:40 Jordach it's not even a K varaint 22:40 sofar of course, I have 6 full cores 22:40 sofar vs you 4? 22:40 Jordach but considering MT's singlethreaded ness 22:40 Jordach :^) 22:43 red-004 wow RTT calculation is a mess 22:53 Jordach sofar, minetest.rotate_node is superior 22:53 Jordach it's PERFECT 22:54 Jordach sofar, http://i.imgur.com/asNLlwb.png 23:00 Calinou http://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Jane-Silber-Steps-Down 23:00 Calinou Mark Shuttleworth will be Canonical CEO again 23:01 Jordach >The OpenCL Cycles renderer has shorter render times by up to 50% in some cases, 23:01 * Jordach falls out of Jordach's chair 23:04 Jordach my AMD GPU is happy af 23:05 benrob0329 what?? 23:05 * benrob0329 would fall out of his chair, but is too lazy to do so. 23:06 Jordach i've moved recipes outside of registering a stair and slab defs 23:07 Jordach since it can be done together 23:08 Calinou yeah, they finally made OpenCL faster 23:08 Calinou the release is not ready yet 23:08 Calinou it's still in the works 23:08 Jordach mfw RX 480 8GB 23:08 Jordach the one good card for it 23:08 Jordach all this VRAM and not enough usaeg for it 23:13 * sofar afk 23:14 * benrob0329 runs to every chat service and announces the news 23:15 benrob0329 if its stable, i may upgrade to an amd card instead of a 1080ti 23:48 * Jordach just heard sofars voice 23:48 Jordach had to boost my amp by +35dB but, not_bad.png 23:49 Jordach and yes, i like CSM particles