Time Nick Message 03:59 erlehmann i have made some remarks on how to avoid breaking changes in the engine while not impeding progress. what would be a good venue for further discussion? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11989#issuecomment-1024796327 04:00 erlehmann (this text can not be in the forum because cheat clients, lol) 06:40 Baytuch Good morning 10:39 sfan5 wow another three page rant from erlehmann 11:02 MTDiscord erlehmann: Open another issue, something like "Backwards compatibility policy" which then gets tagged Discussion Controversial 11:03 MTDiscord sfan5: is there any user-friendly way to "downgrade" maps from ZSTD to GZIP, or to prevent the upgrade in the first place? 11:04 sfan5 compiling is not user friendly 11:04 MTDiscord there would be that thing to recompile minetest to save in the older format 11:04 sfan5 an external program could potentially do it 11:04 MTDiscord but that's not user friendly 11:04 MTDiscord The map upgrading probably deserves it's own issue, not only related to the get_player_control() - many will try out 5.5 but might prefer sticking with 5.4 because of other breakage that will inevitably occur. 11:05 MTDiscord Was it rubenwardy who suggested that users be shown a dialog to ask them whether they want their map to be upgraded? 11:06 MTDiscord That'd sound like rather good UX to me, although it might get in the way. Probably add something like a "remember my decision" checkbox? 11:06 sfan5 half of our users won't even know what that means 11:06 MTDiscord That's why we rephrase it understandably 11:07 MTDiscord Something like "Upgrade your map? You won't be able to use it on 5.4 and lower, but it will be smaller and faster." 11:07 sfan5 the same half of our users would never think about downgrading 11:19 sfan5 fyi I would be okay with a temporary setting that tells MT to write the old format but ? on anything with user interaction like you described 12:46 Baytuch is better for me: https://github.com/minetest-mods/skinsdb/pull/64/files . I dont see when users change skin and grep db file. 13:00 sfan5 this channel is for development of the minetest engine only, so please mention such things in #minetest in the future 13:04 Baytuch okay, sfan5 13:27 erlehmann luatic sfan what about having a setting for “upgrade old maps” initially set to false? 13:28 erlehmann i mean gzip compat has to be there forever anyway right? 14:13 sfan5 no 14:13 MTDiscord Why can't we just have a user dialog? Is informed consent that bad? 14:14 sfan5 do you remember when Internet Explorer asked for consent everytime it connected to a HTTPS webpage? 14:15 MTDiscord Thats a borderline strawman, this isn't for every world, just ones that haven't been upgraded yet. 14:15 MTDiscord Its the opposite of that IE dialog, actually 14:17 sfan5 it was meant to be an example of "asking for consent for trivialities that the average user will not understand and just click whatever gets them past the dialog" 14:18 Pexin wasnt the suggestion from the other day to just not start the game if the user says no? after a dialog explicitly warning the conversion is not reversible? 14:18 sfan5 dunno 14:18 Pexin not continuing to support oldmode 14:19 MTDiscord No matter what we do, there will be pain, but not making it irreversible pain would probably be best 14:19 sfan5 writing an older map format is just toggling a value (it has to be supported anyway) so that'd be more practical 14:19 Krock_ this is by far not the first time when map versions changed 14:19 Krock_ it happens every now and then, and that's how software development goes 14:19 MTDiscord No, but there has been concern 14:20 MTDiscord I don't know why only now, but its here 14:20 Pexin there are probably far more users now than there have ever been 14:20 Krock_ the discussions will past as soon another new version is out 14:21 Krock_ *pass *Minetest version 14:22 MTDiscord My last 2¢ are this: We can't fix user stupidity, but we can give them a chance to not be stupid. 14:23 sfan5 what happened to making backups? Do people not do this? 14:23 Pexin so, a config value to write into oldmode would be trivial? 14:24 sfan5 by the way determing "has this map been opened in 5.5 or newer" is a non-trivial problem, there can be any amount of mapblocks in any version inside a database 14:24 sfan5 Pexin: correct 14:27 MTDiscord correct, unfortunately 14:27 freshreplicant[m Is it possible to make a copy of the map in the old format automatically and notify the user of this? Or at least to give them a prompt like "Make a copy of the original map?" 14:27 Pexin freshreplicant[m: some maps are collossal 14:28 rubenwardy Best solution is a tool to downgrade maps 14:30 sfan5 would have to be written (though I have an unreleased one like that) 14:31 sfan5 more importantly we need consensus in the dev team, with these things it's 2-3 vocal users arguing against 1 or maybe two active coredevs which is not great 14:35 MTDiscord Consent wouldn't be so bad, as long as it's not a long-term thing. Something like "warning: upgrading the map will make it incompatible with 5.4-. Not upgrading the map will make it incompatible with 5.6+" Users who choose not to upgrade will just have to dismiss the nag screen each time they start up until they either cave, or they upgrade to 5.6 and the not-upgrading option is removed. 14:40 Pexin no mention of 5.6 is needed, it's just clutter 14:43 erlehmann > Not upgrading the map will make it incompatible with 5.6+ 14:43 erlehmann that's just bollocks, the conversion code does not magically bitrot 14:43 erlehmann input and output formats are well defined and understood 14:54 MTDiscord Another issue is that these async errors are buggy 15:05 erlehmann luatic wdym? 15:06 MTDiscord #11698 15:06 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11698 -- Async "mapblock version mismatch error" seems to be stuck in deadlock sometimes 15:08 erlehmann uh oh 15:08 sfan5 rubenwardy, Krock, HuguesRoss: are you available tomorrow evening to assist with the release 15:08 HuguesRoss timezone? 15:08 rubenwardy Yes 15:08 rubenwardy Cest 15:08 MTDiscord yep, I can still reproduce it 15:08 Krock UTC+1 or so 15:08 rubenwardy Well, UTC is usually used 15:09 rubenwardy Cest is UTC+1 I think? 15:09 Krock I will try to be around, but cannot yet promise it 15:09 MTDiscord erlehmann: it's simple really, sometimes instead of properly throwing the "async err" it's stuck at "shutting down" forever 15:09 rubenwardy Oops, that's summer time 15:09 erlehmann rubenwardy, UTC+2 is CEST 15:09 HuguesRoss Yeah, I think I should be fine then. "Evening" CEST is early afternoon for me 15:09 erlehmann but it is winter right now 15:09 rubenwardy Have we closed all blockers? Are we reasonably sure it's been sufficiently tested? 15:10 rubenwardy Yeah, CET is UTC+1 15:10 erlehmann rubenwardy could you please look at the thing where sfan5 aligns mapblock boundaries with mapgen boundaries? 15:10 MTDiscord #11365 is still open 15:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11365 -- Shadowmaps cannot be disabled by the server 15:10 HuguesRoss Anyway, I'm UTC-5 so I'll be around 15:10 erlehmann it's a very simple change and it fixes a lot of problems 15:11 sfan5 to be more exact everything from 18 to 21 UTC is fine for me 15:11 erlehmann rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11866 15:12 erlehmann the problem is that a bunch of code uses MAX_MAPGEN_LIMIT or how it's called for “where does the gameworld end” and it lies inside a mapblock, so logically the outermost mapblock is half-working only 15:13 erlehmann because obviously the mapgen has generated past MAX_MAPGEN_LIMIT for literally forever 15:13 erlehmann if you do not merge this, expect crashes with generated structures in the outermost mapblock and with lua mapgens in general 15:14 sfan5 speaking of blockers #11699 needs a merge, #12001 an approval 15:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11699 -- Disable dynamic shadows for 5.5.0 release by SmallJoker 15:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12001 -- Update credits for 5.5.0 by sfan5 15:14 sfan5 #11831 and #11992 won't make it, not critical IMO 15:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11831 -- Don't go out of the map during raycast by savilli 15:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11992 -- Heap UAF in craft recipes 15:14 MTDiscord sfan5: the heap UAF is a vuln though? 15:15 sfan5 well yea 15:15 erlehmann does #11831 mean you can crash the game by using mcl2 buckets at the map border? or do you need to *start* out of bounds? 15:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11831 -- Don't go out of the map during raycast by savilli 15:15 erlehmann i can test this if this is important to anyone 15:16 MTDiscord this matters for everything that uses raycasts, including guns, and yes, it allows to send the game into an inf loop 15:16 erlehmann fun times! 15:16 MTDiscord but wasn't the final "agreement" that instead of properly clipping the raycast, the overflow should have been fixed? 15:16 sfan5 that was my suggestion yes 15:16 erlehmann luatic geting people to agree on fixing overflows is notoriously difficult though, but yeah, it's a good suggestion. 15:17 erlehmann i'm beginning to warm up to cora's “warn ppl to hold off on upgrading to 5.5, because you can not downgrade your maps” stance tbh 15:17 erlehmann too many bugs still 15:17 MTDiscord Not patching the raycast isnt the biggest thing as it isnt a new bug. That said i would agree if possible a patch should be merged 15:18 MTDiscord erlehmann: many of these bugs have existed in 5.4 and lower as well though, if you're referring to the raycast bug? 15:18 erlehmann luatic yeah, but i find it telling that “update credits” is a blocker but “fix a crash that is used in the wild to make servers unplayable” is none. 15:19 sfan5 please can you just 15:19 sfan5 not say anything 15:19 erlehmann ok 15:19 MTDiscord the problem is that while the credits are manageable, fixing crashes takes forever# 15:19 MTDiscord there are tons of segfaults 15:19 sfan5 while not disallowed here I would appreciate if you could keep tangentially development related comments in #minetest 15:20 MTDiscord I'd love it if I could sneak in #12000 15:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12000 -- Fix builtin statbar backgrounds by appgurueu 15:20 sfan5 I just wanted to mention that 15:20 sfan5 but only if we're confident that it works 15:21 sfan5 regarding the craft recipes thing, yes it's a reliably triggerable C++ bug but not really the first and in the end people still choose mods they install 15:21 MTDiscord Well, the first commit (https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/12000/commits/a6b7ccf7c5866e4125427e08daa0ebf7a4a25d8f) is literally a trivial fix for the "half bg icons" 15:22 sfan5 have you looked at all the translation PRs in game? 15:22 sfan5 (I have not but we want two approvals anyway) 15:22 MTDiscord I'd merge the french one already 15:23 MTDiscord game#2922 that is 15:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2922 -- Update french translations by dacmot 15:23 MTDiscord because Hugues approval should definitely count there 15:25 sfan5 sure 15:26 MTDiscord oh yay, Calinou just reviewed too! 15:28 sfan5 also the least thankful task: someone will have to write a changelog 15:32 Pexin #11969 trivial fix and future-proofing for plans of mine. needs review. super simple. I'll make you a pie..? 15:32 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11969 -- Use absolute value for bouncy in collision by pecksin 15:33 sfan5 I think v-rob wanted to look at that 15:37 sfan5 @luatic I looked at the other two now 15:39 erlehmann can i try bribery as well? i'll send 25€ via SEPA to wherever celeron55 or rubenwardy tell me it would contributes to minetest or contentdb hosting if https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11866 is included in 5.5 15:39 sfan5 don't think that'll work 15:41 erlehmann well, the offer is out there! 15:41 MTDiscord lol, bug bounty but for merging a finished PR? 15:43 erlehmann i think it neatly illustrates how much i think this fix is necessary. 15:57 HuguesRoss I've approved #12000, my opinion is that it's a low enough priority bugfix that we may want to hold it back if we're actually planning to ship 5.5 tomorrow 15:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12000 -- Fix builtin statbar backgrounds by appgurueu 16:00 MTDiscord HuguesRoss: The "half heart bg" thing is really low priority, agreed, but the "scale to default" is completely broken in it's current form 16:01 MTDiscord I suppose I should have opened two PRs to get the low priority thing merged as a trivial bugfix without the need for two approvals 16:02 HuguesRoss For me personally, within 48hrs of a release I see the priority limit around the level of crashes, RCE, data destruction, etc 16:03 HuguesRoss Otherwise it's easy to run into the "pushing to production on a Friday afternoon" problem 16:03 sfan5 I agree 16:05 erlehmann HuguesRoss do you want to look at 11866 then? it mitigates both crashes and data destruction (corrupted mapgen at boundaries) 16:07 Pexin what about "one more week" for a rc2? 16:08 * Pexin gets smacked 16:08 HuguesRoss erlehmann: Just gave the diff a glance, that change seems suspiciously simple to me 16:08 HuguesRoss I can give it a more thorough look, but my gut instinct is telling me it's going to break the shit out of something 16:09 sfan5 it's merely raising the limit at which some function refuses to work 16:09 sfan5 notable the function did not have this limit in 5.4 16:09 erlehmann HuguesRoss the issue is simple, shit was broken when sfan5 limited minetest.get_nodes_in_area() to accept MAX_MAPGEN_LIMIT, which is not actually the limit of the map. it lies within the outermost mapblock. so there is currently a shell around the map in which minetest can place nodes, but not find them. 16:10 erlehmann HuguesRoss so with this fix sfan5 raises the limit so that all placed nodes in the outermost mapblock are found 16:10 erlehmann and some other stuff that was weird in that area is also eliminated, since the area where nodes are placed but not found has gone 16:11 erlehmann or at least, if it exists, it does not exist *within* a mapblock that is only partially working rn 16:11 HuguesRoss hm, ok. I'll admit my concerns are probably more applicable to how many systems can potentially interact with map limits, if it's purely for placing/getting nodes it might be safe 16:11 HuguesRoss I'll try to test it later today 16:11 erlehmann oh, it fixes other bugs i have whined about forever too 16:12 erlehmann the fundemental problem is that almost everyone thought that MAX_MAPGEN_LIMIT is actually something that the mapgen adheres to, but it is going over it a bit. so the more code that relied on that, the more code already is buggy. 16:12 erlehmann like mineclonia has a structure that places tnt there. but *if* you place tnt there and manage to explode it, bad things can happen. 16:13 erlehmann so if the pyramid generates at the map border and you trigger it, fun times! 16:13 erlehmann uh-oh. i think tnt also does raycast explosions. :( 16:16 HuguesRoss Yeah, as a modder I've just always acted under the assumption that things will break down if you hit the limits of the map. It's the kind of case that seems easy for folks to overlook 16:16 erlehmann HuguesRoss the thing is, things were actually engineered pretty well until it was broken 16:17 erlehmann the behaviour at the map boundaries is basically “these mapblocks never load” 16:17 sfan5 (they still don't) 16:17 erlehmann only the change to minetest.find_nodes_in_area() with wrong boundaries made it problematic – and i agree with sfan5 that changing the boundaries to lie on a mapblock will prevent most issues there. 16:18 erlehmann sfan5 it is possible to emerge the area and place stuff there and some mod code does it by accident. i do it deliberately in mineclonia and output a warning at server start. 16:18 erlehmann (if minetest fails to find nodes it can place) 16:26 erlehmann can you please tag #12005 bug bounty? 16:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12005 -- Old maps are upgraded to ZSTD block compression, making it impossible to load the world in 5.4 16:27 erlehmann and yes, the user pain is worth 50€ to me. i haven't spent money on computer games in a while. 16:27 erlehmann and minetest is really fun 16:30 rubenwardy I don't like either of those solutions. Better to have a tool to allow downgrading 16:31 MTDiscord rubenwardy: that tool should be included in MT though 16:32 sfan5 rubenwardy: advertising something as a "tool to allow downgrading" will be a failure as people will also expect it to do any potential migrations that games have done 16:32 sfan5 e.g. node aliases 16:33 sfan5 they only sure way to to downgrade a map is to restore from a backup 16:33 sfan5 period 16:56 sfan5 okay so it's actually only #11992 that'll go unsolved 16:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11992 -- Heap UAF in craft recipes 17:15 MTDiscord i have a very stupid fix for it 17:16 MTDiscord replace output.item with craftGetItemName(output.item) 17:16 erlehmann why is this stupid 17:17 erlehmann does it ruin books or enchantments or so? 17:17 erlehmann or banners 17:17 MTDiscord it definitely can break smth 17:18 MTDiscord and it doesn't actually remove broken pointers from m_output_craft_definitions 17:19 rubenwardy I dread to think how many memory vulnerabilities that Minetest has 17:20 MTDiscord it's not only i caught with asan 17:20 erlehmann rubenwardy it is possible to figure those out largely automatically, given good unit tests. see here for an example: https://mister-muffin.de/p/-J2g.html 17:20 MTDiscord and i ran really huge modpacks 17:20 MTDiscord so probably it's not that bad 17:20 erlehmann asan is really good at spitting out very usable things 17:20 erlehmann savilli yeah but have you fuzzed minetest using afl-fuzz? 17:21 erlehmann i have not yet gotten to that, but if i was tasked to exploit minetest, i would fuzz it using afl with a) vanilla compile options b) ubsan c) asan d) msan e) tsan 17:21 erlehmann haven't used cfsan 17:21 MTDiscord s/not only/the only 17:23 erlehmann savilli could you detail your test setup a bit more? 17:23 erlehmann maybe make an issue about it 17:23 erlehmann or a blogpost, whatever 17:24 MTDiscord 1) build minetest with asan, msan, tsan, etc 2) install a huge modpack aka mineclone5 or pandorabox 3) play a little 4) profit 17:25 erlehmann then you are doing the same as me 17:25 erlehmann also please report the other stuff you found 17:25 MTDiscord sure 17:25 MTDiscord well i found a lot of memory leaks on shutdown, too lazy to report them :) 17:25 erlehmann oh, that is easily explainable 17:26 erlehmann the leak sanitizer will *only* complain on shutdown 17:26 erlehmann it has very little runtime overhead, but before shutdown, it complains about all leaks it found 17:26 erlehmann that does not mean they only happen on shutdown, lsan is just not as aggressive in crashing your software as asan, ubsan, msan, tsan 17:27 erlehmann to spell it out: most of that are probably real issues 17:27 MTDiscord nah, there were literally leaked global objects, like server env, lua env, sun, moon etc 17:27 MTDiscord not a big deal 17:29 erlehmann well, i'd say the next level is torturing minetest by means of afl or afl++, are you interested in a collaboration on that? 17:31 MTDiscord maybe 17:32 erlehmann i value enthusiastic content, so “maybe” means “no”. :P 17:32 MTDiscord i believe you can do it by yourself XD 17:32 erlehmann i am less motivated to do things alone tbh 17:34 erlehmann rubenwardy if you want an intro to finding memory vulnerabilities, i can give you a short demo. the gist of it: instrument your program using afl, then compile it so that asan or msan make it crash on address or memory issues. then throw afl at it and wait. usually a few hours of fuzzing should yield a dozen bugs in the average case, often you get at least 1 crash in the first few minutes. 17:34 rubenwardy I might have a go with that 17:34 rubenwardy but with my personal C++ game 17:34 erlehmann and yes, i am writing this here and not in #minetest because i think *everyone* writing c or c++ should do that 17:35 MTDiscord minetest is bad for fuzzing 17:35 erlehmann oh, you can abuse the unit tests (if you have some) 17:35 erlehmann which is why i was upset about removal of irrlichtmt unit tests 17:35 erlehmann i found the b3d crash by means of afl 17:37 erlehmann rubenwardy to quickstart afl, see this: https://github.com/nmoskopp/afl-fuzz-talk – 00-get-afl.sh gets you afl and compiles it (but maybe replace the http with https) – ”10-fuzz.sh ./src/demo-printf.c” starts fuzzing an intentionally buggy program that reads a simple file format and writes found crashes to ./src/demo-printf.d/crashes or so 17:38 erlehmann and by intentionally buggy, i mean: it does something like “printf(buffer);” which is a format string vulnerability and afl finds an input that crashes it 17:47 rubenwardy I think we should push back the release date by a week, we're still fixing fairly big bugs. A week is a small amount of time compared to the 48 weeks since 5.4 17:49 rubenwardy We could start a `dev` branch. That's in our git guidelines, but hasn't really been used yet 17:49 rubenwardy if people want to start 5.6 17:55 sfan5 I don't really agree, you are right the remaining fixes are not small but they are low risk 18:09 MTDiscord actually the only good fix for #11992 is to move crafting system to lua 18:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11992 -- Heap UAF in craft recipes 18:09 MTDiscord my server uses the custom one, so i was surprised it even exists in the engine 18:31 Baytuch I added fix for slow machine based ARMv7. Set client_mapblock_limit as 250 blocks. System allocate mem for 350-400 blocks and reset to 250. 18:32 Baytuch https://github.com/baytuch/minetest/commit/e6a60fff169e75e89e7edae57ff8c2a5a094f485 18:34 erlehmann Baytuch please make a pull request on github 18:34 erlehmann very good 21:08 ROllerozxa So I cleaned ~/.minetest and just realised Minetest doesn't show its logo when installed system-wide. Not a 5.5.0-dev regression, it's like this in 5.4 as well. Is this intentional? 21:14 rubenwardy so the logo where? 21:15 ROllerozxa in the menu outside of the "start game" tab 21:16 rubenwardy the "Minetest" text? 21:22 ROllerozxa Yeah. So, I used to have remnants of my Windows installation in ~/.minetest, in particular the base texture pack at ~/.minetest/textures/base. While this was in my Minetest home folder, the Minetest logo (menu_header.png) shows up. I decided to remove this since it's unnecessary to be in the home folder, it's installed alongside Minetest in /usr/share/minetest/textures/base/ anyways. But now... The logo is gone! Occurs both on 5.5.0-dev and 21:22 ROllerozxa 5.4.1, and it is still able to load other textures from the base pack, it's just the logo that it doesn't want to load. 21:25 ROllerozxa It is supposed to show up right? Like, on the settings tab the minetest logo should be at the top there. 21:26 sfan5 works for me but I also have RUN_IN_PLACE=1 21:27 ROllerozxa yeah this occurs when installed system-wide, so the base texture pack wouldn't be in the same place as user-installed texture packs 21:27 ROllerozxa super weird, I probably should check if I can get something useful out of the debug logs 22:04 ROllerozxa found the issue, #12013 fixes it 22:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12013 -- Fix Minetest logo when installed system-wide. by rollerozxa 22:05 ROllerozxa apparently it has been like this for... 8 years? shocking. 22:05 sfan5 I supposed core.get_texturepath() and core.get_texturepath_share() are equivalent for run_in_place? 22:06 ROllerozxa yeah 22:08 ROllerozxa both 'share' and 'user' are . when RUN_IN_PLACE=1, while 'share' is /usr/share/minetest and 'user' is ~/.minetest when RUN_IN_PLACE=0. so it has tried to load it from 'user', which works when RUN_IN_PLACE=1 but not when RUN_IN_PLACE=0 22:09 ROllerozxa so it has worked for portable windows builds and linux binaries people compile themselves that are contained to the source tree, but not for system-installed packages 22:14 sfan5 rubenwardy: at this rate it does indeed look wise to delay the release by half a week 22:14 sfan5 but I don't really want to 22:14 rubenwardy it's annoying to delay even further, but it could be less pain in the long run 22:16 sfan5 depends on what you're referring to 22:16 sfan5 for fixes we can just do a 5.5.1 next week if necessary 22:17 Wuzzy I'm done testing the return values of player functions when called on non-players 22:17 Wuzzy so, most functions return nil 22:18 Wuzzy due to the recent PR, get_player_control and get_player_control_bits also return nil 22:18 sfan5 they return {} and 0 respectively now 22:18 sfan5 did you miss that the issue was already fixes? 22:18 sfan5 fixed* 22:18 Wuzzy surprisingly, get_player_velocity returns {x=0,y=0,z=0} 22:19 erlehmann quick, change it to something that breaks mods 22:19 erlehmann before 5.5 22:19 Wuzzy xd 22:19 erlehmann xxxD 22:20 Wuzzy no, thats a feature request and we're in feature freeze. thi has to way for 5.6 22:20 Wuzzy well, {x=0,y=0,z=0} is *technically* correct i would say. right? ? 22:20 sfan5 get_player_velocity is an alias of get_velocity 22:20 sfan5 that's why 22:20 erlehmann just do a refucktoring then 22:21 erlehmann and hide it in the PR! 22:21 erlehmann tried and tested method ;) 22:21 Wuzzy i think get_player_velocity can stay 22:22 rubenwardy get_player_velocity is deprecated anyway 22:22 Wuzzy oh right 22:22 Wuzzy forget it then 22:22 rubenwardy I'm unable to clone the Minetest launch pad because they're still using sha1 22:23 Wuzzy what do you think? How difficult it would be to make default privileges revokable? 22:23 sfan5 by the way Wuzzy since we've just had this discussion: is the addition of basic_debug a breaking change? 22:23 sfan5 after all it requires games to make changes to work like before 22:23 sfan5 they're not revokable? that'd be a problem 22:23 Wuzzy i dont really know, but it might make players upset ... 22:24 Wuzzy yeah. /revokeme all in singleplayer, you still have privs left 22:24 Wuzzy i have no idea if this is by design or bug 22:24 sfan5 "in single player the following cannot be revoked: shout" what does that mean? 22:24 rubenwardy OK so this looks like a right pain 22:24 sfan5 I don't think it's about default privs but rather the admin cannot strip himself of privs 22:24 Wuzzy it means that the shout priv is irrevokable 22:24 rubenwardy A MTG mod can just grant on_joinplayer 22:25 sfan5 because you can absolutely forbid people to interact or shout 22:25 rubenwardy er nevermind 22:25 Wuzzy if a priv has give_to_singleplayer=true, then you can not revoke it from singleplayer 22:25 Wuzzy so give_to_singleplayer actually does two things at once: Grant it to singleplayer by default AND make it irrevokable 22:25 Wuzzy (irrevokable to sigleplayer) 22:26 Wuzzy same for give_to_admin, of course 22:27 Wuzzy sfan5: the error message is just a user friendly way to show this limitation. the actual limitation lies in Minetest core, not builtin 22:28 sfan5 okay wait what 22:28 sfan5 are default privileges not a thing? 22:28 Wuzzy what do you mean with "default priv"? 22:28 Wuzzy give_to_singleplayer? 22:28 rubenwardy default- 22:28 sfan5 I would have expected a "give_by_default" in the privilege definition 22:28 rubenwardy default_privs 22:29 sfan5 but turns out this is only controlled by the setting "default_privs" 22:29 Wuzzy wait, what? 22:29 Wuzzy hmmmm let me check something 22:29 sfan5 default_privs provides a way to actually specify defaults for privs 22:30 sfan5 this is impossible in a priv definition which only provides a way to force for SP or the admin 22:30 rubenwardy defaults also only apply on user register 22:30 Wuzzy okay i just tested 22:30 Wuzzy it seems that give_to_singleplayer 100% forces the privs on singleplayer and its impossible to revoke them 22:30 rubenwardy It feels like you need a MTG mod that adds the priv and then uses meta to remember if it was automatically added 22:31 Wuzzy even when default_privs is empty you always get the give_to_singleplayer privs 22:31 rubenwardy so it doesn't readd after revocation 22:31 sfan5 rubenwardy: it doesn't only 'feel' like that, that's the way 22:32 rubenwardy how would an orienteering mod disable this behaviour? 22:32 rubenwardy I guess opt-depend + a method call / variable set 22:32 rubenwardy debug_priv.enabled = false 22:33 Wuzzy so it sems the privileges are litereally impossible to get rid for singleplayer once added with give_to_singleplayer=true 22:33 Wuzzy /revokeme doesn't wor 22:33 Wuzzy not even minetest.set_player_privs("singleplayer", {}) works 22:33 Wuzzy so i guess the engine forces the privilege or something 22:35 Wuzzy sfan5: so the issue is not default_privs. this works fine. the issue is give_to_singleplayer/give_to_admin 22:36 sfan5 rubenwardy: on_joinplayer and revoke it? not ideal to have a mod make these decisions 22:36 Wuzzy i get the rationale that we dont want admin to accidentally revoke server/privs/etc 22:36 Wuzzy maybe make "irrevokability" a separate parameter for privilege definition 22:37 Wuzzy does this make sense? 22:37 sfan5 what is the point of `default_privs` then if you can't influence game/mod choices? 22:38 Wuzzy again: This has NOTHING do do with default_privs 22:38 Wuzzy wait... 22:38 sfan5 these two mechanisms interact so obviously it does 22:38 Wuzzy what are you going to say? 22:38 rubenwardy default_privs doesn't help here, because it only runs on new players 22:38 Wuzzy OH 22:38 Wuzzy right 22:38 Wuzzy omg 22:38 sfan5 "if the game makes the choices for you why do we have a default_privs setting?" 22:39 Wuzzy then my debug approach is basically completely broken... 22:39 Wuzzy there is no way to save it then ? 22:39 sfan5 it should have been a hud flag 22:39 Wuzzy yeah, do a full revert. nuke it from orbit ? 22:39 erlehmann so back to basics 22:39 sfan5 but I'm pretty this was discussed 22:39 rubenwardy this was discussed before the PR was merged, in length 22:39 Wuzzy yes it was discussed heavily 22:39 erlehmann stuff can have been discussed and important points not be valued enough, happens all the time. 22:39 sfan5 MTG registers two privileges, neither of which are forced on 22:40 Pexin as I recall, the result was simply that different people have different perspectives on what MT is supposed to be 22:40 sfan5 is there actually ANY usecase for forcing privs on? 22:40 Wuzzy are those give_to_singleplayer/give_to_admin? 22:40 sfan5 Wuzzy: that's what I mean by "forced on", both false 22:40 Wuzzy yes if its false then its not forced 22:40 Wuzzy its only forced if true 22:40 sfan5 yes 22:41 erlehmann Pexin the result of the discussion does not matter if players think it sucks. 22:41 Wuzzy regardless of the debug thing, i think the "forced privilege" is a discussion in its own right... 22:41 Wuzzy it always stuck me as very weird to have some privileges impossible to revoke 22:41 Wuzzy well for admin you kinda sorta can argue it sucks when you accidentally "lock yourself out" or whatever ... hmmm 22:42 sfan5 >“Why not using HUD flags?”. HUD flags are controlled by mods. This implies that mods can screw around with the debug info at will. All it takes is one poorly-coded mod to strip away the extended debug info from the admin, which is not fun to track down. Privileges, by comparison, are much more reliable and predictable and there are no ugly 22:42 sfan5 surprises. 22:42 sfan5 ? 22:42 Wuzzy My mistake was that I have completely not taken default_privs into account ... argh 22:42 Wuzzy default_privs ruins everything 22:43 erlehmann sfan5 what does that mean for the use case of “as soon as one uses mcl_maps players should have a motivation to make maps for orientation and i want a mod to remove their access to coordinates”, how do you envision that to be implemented? 22:43 sfan5 "Mods should have NO business in touching the debug info at all. Debug info must work without mods, it's a very essential feature. " so rubenwardy's question of what an orienteering mod would do is just the wrong question 22:43 Wuzzy so basically no way how I try to "tweak" my PR, all players on old servers will not get the basic_privs unless the server admin MANUALLY adds it 22:43 sfan5 erlehmann: you should ask Wuzzy because that's his text :) 22:43 rubenwardy A mod like orienteering breaks if debug info is enabled by a MTG mod 22:43 Wuzzy yeah, that was always my concern 22:43 Wuzzy that was the whole reason 22:44 Wuzzy my goal is to separate debug info from gameplay info 22:44 sfan5 but in your PR description you argued that mods shouldn't touch the debug info priv 22:44 sfan5 this is a fundamental conflict 22:44 erlehmann the debug screen contains too little info tbh, there could also be light level of pointed node and node meta 22:44 Wuzzy in the perfect world, games/minetest would have exposed stuff like coordinates in a "clean" way (no ugly debug screen) 22:44 sfan5 I mean it got approved and merged 22:44 sfan5 but still ??? 22:45 Wuzzy lol erlehmann. node meta can get out of hand fast 22:45 Wuzzy is there a size limit for node meta? 22:45 sfan5 not really 22:45 Wuzzy then not really a good idea to show the node meta in debug ? 22:45 erlehmann if anyone introduces one you are going to make a lot of people with chests full of books very angry 22:46 Wuzzy unless its really simple like "empty/not empty" 22:46 erlehmann or chests full of shulkers full of shulkers full of shulkers 22:46 Pexin crated digtrons 22:46 Wuzzy yeah, an "advanced debug screen" would be very useful 22:46 sfan5 rubenwardy: I think an orienteering mod can do basically two things: 1) ask the server admin to adjust default privs and everything 2) just go and revoke the priv itself 22:46 rubenwardy https://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2021-06-21#i_5836890 22:46 rubenwardy here's the very very long discussion we had 22:47 Wuzzy so at this stage it's obviously too late to make a better debug screen for 5.5, so the only way forward is nuking it 22:47 Wuzzy i mean the PR, not the debug screen!!! 22:48 sfan5 so was the 5.4 <-> 5.5 thing solved? 22:48 sfan5 who even approved the PR 22:48 Wuzzy One idea I had for a better coordiante display would be something like a "coordinate key". it would replace F5 and the debug screen moves to a different key, basically 22:48 sfan5 couldn've been me 22:49 Wuzzy the #1 reason why all players use F5 is because of coords 22:49 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome 22:49 sfan5 it was c55 and ruben 22:49 rubenwardy If you connect to a 5.5 server with a 5.4 client, it pretends you have debug_basic 22:49 sfan5 well that's good 22:49 Wuzzy oh 22:49 Wuzzy that still doesnt fix default_privs tho 22:50 Wuzzy if a 5.5 player that already registered years ago joins, no basic_debug 22:50 sfan5 fixable 22:50 Wuzzy how? 22:50 rubenwardy wait, otherway around 22:50 rubenwardy If you connect to a 5.4 server with a 5.5 client, it pretends you have debug_basic 22:51 Wuzzy yes this makes sense 22:51 sfan5 minetest.register_on_joinplayer(function(player) if player:get_meta():get("foo") == "" then minetest.grant_privilege(player:get_player_name(), "basic_debug"); player:get_meta():set("foo", 1) end end) 22:51 sfan5 that's how 22:51 Wuzzy ? 22:51 Wuzzy that's a mod 22:51 sfan5 ofc 22:51 Wuzzy meaning that server operators have to do something 22:51 sfan5 we'd put that into MTG 22:51 Wuzzy therefore it will never happen 22:51 Wuzzy server operator can be slow to change :/ 22:52 sfan5 if they upgrade to 5.5 they will also upgrade MTG 22:52 Wuzzy unless you suggest to put this code in builtin ? 22:52 sfan5 and if not then there's no issue with 5.4 22:53 Wuzzy not every server is MTG 22:53 sfan5 well idk 22:53 Wuzzy sorry i believe this is a case of "back to the drawing board". just nuke my basic_debug PR 22:53 sfan5 you got your breaking change PR merged 6 months ago 22:53 sfan5 and apparently only now realize it's a problem 22:54 Wuzzy yes but BEFORE release 22:54 Wuzzy its not entirely true, i always thought about it... it was a splinter in my mind ... but had no idea what to do 22:54 Pexin I can verify several people were unhappy, but the devs had Spoken 22:54 Wuzzy the final word has not been spoken 22:55 MTDiscord It's a reasonable change 22:55 sfan5 I knew about the basic_debug thing before and made a mental note to add it as a default priv in MTG 22:55 sfan5 but the concept being totally broken is new to me 22:55 sfan5 would've been useful to know earlier 22:55 Wuzzy I KNOW ? 22:56 rubenwardy I find it funny how adament you were when we suggested alternatives that let it remain on by default, insisting that it shouldn't be available by default 22:56 rubenwardy and then changing your mind 1 day before a planned release 22:56 MTDiscord just put basic_debug in the list of default privs... 22:57 Wuzzy well that'S the thing... 22:57 MTDiscord in MT.conf 22:57 rubenwardy MisterE: won't work, default_privs only grants to _new_ players 22:57 Wuzzy that won't really work 22:57 MTDiscord yeah ok 22:57 Wuzzy It's not just "changing my mind" it's realizing there was a fatal flaw in the logic 22:57 MTDiscord Well I went and added that code to grant the priv to everyone in a server-special mod 22:58 MTDiscord logic dies 22:58 Wuzzy I thought that it would be posible for servers to somehow magically react to the change to make it work again 22:58 Wuzzy but I did not actually TEST this... haha. that's the reason 22:58 Wuzzy so yeah, lesson learned, don't make claims that something works if not tested ? 22:59 MTDiscord ... Im not following 22:59 rubenwardy test what? 22:59 rubenwardy The two solutions I see are: 22:59 rubenwardy 1. Add a mod to MTG to grant to players 22:59 rubenwardy 2. Revert the PR, make a replacement for 5.6 22:59 Wuzzy I believed that servers could automagically grant the basic_debug by default by a simple parameter like default_privs 22:59 Wuzzy but i didn't realize it was for NEW players only, this ruins everything 23:00 Wuzzy why is everyone so obsessed with MTG? lol not every server is MTg 23:00 Wuzzy do solution 2: Nuke it from orbit, its complete trash, sorry 23:00 MTDiscord just FYI, most server owners will not update MTG with the server. Most servers are heavily modified, and will implement any necassary fixes themselves, I think. Anyhow thats what I did when I started running 5.5dev 23:01 Pexin such an autogrant mod, would track whether it has run for each player? so it can be revoked and stay revoked? either way seems a little messy 23:01 MTDiscord nonono... Just add a mod on cdb that grants the priv by defalut! dont revert the PR! 23:02 MTDiscord Its a really good idea to have basic_debug un-accessable 23:02 Pexin MisterE: that still relies on server owners paying attention 23:03 sfan5 Pexin: it would 23:03 MTDiscord Pexin, They will pay attn when their players start complaining, like mine did. Then they will make the decision to add the mod or to leave as-is and not allow the debug info 23:03 MTDiscord which, should be a decision the server owners should make 23:03 sfan5 dealing with this in MTG is no problem at all (even though it's a bit messy) 23:03 Pexin someone said possibly put it in builtin? 23:04 sfan5 the question is just: is it okay that other games will have to apply changes if they want to preserve coordinates? 23:04 Wuzzy how about this: auto-grant the priv via builtin? would this work? games can later manually revoke it 23:04 MTDiscord debug info can be considered a "cheat". 23:04 MTDiscord no 23:04 sfan5 and actually I think this is salvageable 23:04 sfan5 consider the many game jam games, none of them will want coords shown 23:04 MTDiscord builtin is for code that is applicable to all games 23:04 MTDiscord yes 23:04 sfan5 the games that do can just grant the priv 23:05 MTDiscord completely agree 23:05 sfan5 it *is* messy because it's not a hud flag 23:05 sfan5 and it *is* a breaking change 23:05 Wuzzy nuke it then 23:05 sfan5 no, it does the job 23:05 MTDiscord stop with the nuclear option! 23:05 Pexin sfan5: wouldnt those games just deny the F5 menu completely? 23:05 Wuzzy F5 still works, it just shows less info by default (like FPS) 23:06 erlehmann 1. Add a mod to MTG to grant to players 23:06 erlehmann this does not salvage non-mtg games, just to point it out 23:06 MTDiscord this is an improvement to the engine, leave it be! Debug should be a priv, and it makes a lot of sense to not grant it by default. Games should have the option but not the default value of allowing in for all players 23:06 Wuzzy I really don't like the MTG-only solution. this is a massive hack 23:06 MTDiscord Built-in is overridable 23:07 MTDiscord most games do not want the debug 23:07 Pexin most players do 23:07 MTDiscord debug is for... debugging 23:07 Wuzzy heh we could just call the next version 6.0.0 so everything is allowed ? 23:07 erlehmann this ties greatly into the amazing map incompatibility! not only does mineclone5 no longer have reliable maps due to API change, players can not work around that using debug priv due to another API change! 23:07 Wuzzy wait, map incompability? one more argument for 6.0.0 instead of 5.5.0 ? 23:07 erlehmann Wuzzy mcl_maps 23:08 sfan5 Wuzzy: you can'tz 23:08 erlehmann i sent it to you in jabber 23:08 erlehmann the dynamic media thing 23:08 erlehmann where the api changed twice 23:08 MTDiscord Pexin, yes, but then they may play on servers which allow it, or they may play singleplayer. never should what players want come before what game designers want, in the context of said games. The players have the option to try to influence the dev of said games tho 23:08 Wuzzy MAP_LIMIT? 23:08 sfan5 Wuzzy: you can't trust a word erlehmann says, he will omit or misrepresent facts whenever it serves him 23:08 MTDiscord ^ 23:09 Wuzzy i am not interested in personal drama, please ... 23:09 Wuzzy stick to the fact 23:09 sfan5 well he isn't doing that 23:09 sfan5 that's not personal drama 23:09 Wuzzy i'm not interested in normal drama either. just facts plz ? 23:09 erlehmann Wuzzy, mcl_maps does not work on 5.5. it is a maps mod. leave aside why. but debug does not give coords on 5.5. 23:09 sfan5 erlehmann raised an issue for an API that had changed after an ~1 year deprecation period 23:09 MTDiscord thats silly, erlehmann, mineclone can and should grant the basic_debug priv by defalut, if that is what they want to do 23:09 erlehmann i was trying to make fun of the issue 23:10 sfan5 he calls this an "incompatbility" 23:10 erlehmann it's about this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/119971 23:10 erlehmann can we go back to privileges please? 23:10 sfan5 which is not technically incorrect but perfectly fine by Minetest standards specifically because there was a deprecation period 23:10 erlehmann it has been discussed to death 23:10 sfan5 erlehmann: guess who brought it up 23:11 erlehmann look, i think it is the stupidest API change i have ever seen in the last 10 years or so and wanted to make fun of it. 23:11 Wuzzy 1 year deprecation is a long time. its ok 23:11 MTDiscord so, please leave the basic_debug as is 23:11 erlehmann i'll stop making fun 23:11 MTDiscord its an annoying but necassary change 23:11 erlehmann back to the debug thing, will i be reverted or not? 23:11 sfan5 for "making fun of things" instead of constructive talking go to #minetest 23:11 erlehmann ok 23:11 MTDiscord So what is the broken part of basic_debug? 23:12 MTDiscord erl... only you can answer this question 23:12 erlehmann MisterE what question? 23:12 sfan5 games have to take action to preserve old behaviour 23:12 MTDiscord Gotcha 23:12 sfan5 or in other words a breaking change 23:12 Wuzzy its not exactly broken its more like... disruptive when players upgrade to 5.5.0 23:12 MTDiscord But it doesn't break games? 23:12 MTDiscord It's a minor inconvenience 23:12 MTDiscord moveresult broke old mods, big deal 23:12 sfan5 the argument was that debug info is not part of a game 23:12 MTDiscord yes, but it is not a large burden. its a few lines of code 23:12 sfan5 or something like that 23:12 MTDiscord Like, it doesn't cause games to crash or anything 23:12 erlehmann sfan5 but turns out it is 23:12 erlehmann like people expect it 23:13 erlehmann has been there for a while etc. pp. 23:13 sfan5 also the second issue with basic_debug is that it's messy if a mod wants to ensure that debug info is visible / not visible 23:13 erlehmann only this time actual users can not do much about it than stay on 5.4 23:13 Wuzzy hmm so if i get this right you are now proposing that EVERY game adds boilerplate code? heh 23:13 MTDiscord Sure, but they can learn new behavior, and server owners can make the old default the new defulat 23:13 MTDiscord No, I won't need it for most games I make 23:13 MTDiscord no, only the few games that actually want the basic_debug 23:13 MTDiscord Just Mt and MCL, nodecore doesn't care 23:14 Pexin few? 23:14 HuguesRoss Not to interrupt this spirited debate, but are there any objections to merging #11699 ? 23:14 HuguesRoss I'll do it in 15 otherwise 23:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11699 -- Disable dynamic shadows for 5.5.0 release by SmallJoker 23:14 MTDiscord ^MTG, mineclone 23:14 Wuzzy the reason why I made it a priv was because I actully wanted to have a more "clean" way to expose coords to players, completely indepentend from debug screen 23:14 Pexin most server owners wont care, and players will suffer 23:14 rubenwardy HuguesRoss: go ahead 23:14 Wuzzy like with hud_add or even a "coordinate key" 23:14 MTDiscord Ill object, if no one else wants to 23:15 MTDiscord Lol, no feel free to keep shadows off by default, but enable-able 23:15 sfan5 Pexin: are there server owners who will update to 5.5 but not maintain their game? 23:15 Wuzzy yes 23:15 MTDiscord That's on them? 23:15 Wuzzy absolutely 23:15 erlehmann MisterE object to what? 23:15 MTDiscord How many Mt servers are there? 25? 23:15 Wuzzy hundreds 23:15 MTDiscord That actually have players 23:15 Pexin sfan5: hmmm.. 23:15 erlehmann ; minetest-servers name |wc -l 23:15 erlehmann 346 23:16 sfan5 like 50 with active players roughly 23:16 Wuzzy yes, exactly 50 right now 23:16 sfan5 that is without subtracting multicraft 23:16 MTDiscord Of those, how many will care and not be able to deal with the change? 4? 23:16 sfan5 or 0.4 23:16 MTDiscord HuguesRoss: to be clear, does this PR allow you to toggle on shadows with an advanced setting? 23:16 Wuzzy oh wait its a bit ore than 50 but whateveer 23:16 sfan5 @MisterE it does not 23:17 MTDiscord then ir seriousness, I kinda object 23:17 MTDiscord *In 23:17 MTDiscord So just a straight up, rip it out? At least let players experiment with it 23:17 erlehmann ; minetest-servers clients |cut -f2 |grep -v '^0$' |wc -l 23:17 erlehmann 104 23:17 Wuzzy dumb question: will auto-granting basic_debug in builtin work? 23:17 erlehmann currently 104 servers have at least 1 client 23:17 MTDiscord Yep, and then games can override that behavior 23:17 MTDiscord yes, I really think that you should be allowed to test the shadows with an advanced setting 23:17 sfan5 we've had this already, players can experiment with a dev build 23:17 sfan5 it absolutely must be disabled in the release 23:17 MTDiscord Oh, it breaks things? 23:18 HuguesRoss @exe_virus I believe the intent is to rip it out and re-enable it immediately after release 23:18 sfan5 yes, it will be 23:18 Wuzzy this is also an option 23:18 erlehmann you have to actually double the number of servers probably 23:18 Wuzzy nuke then rebuild from the ashes ? 23:18 MTDiscord Players don't have the ability to run Dev builds. Like less than 10% haha 23:18 erlehmann about half the servers i play on are not in the public server list 23:18 MTDiscord if you want to explain why it absolutely must be completely disabled in the release, im interested... if not, proceed 23:18 sfan5 I feel sorry for whoever has to read the logs of today 23:19 sfan5 @MisterE the gist is games have no control over users enabling it, ruining the art direction of games 23:19 sfan5 for details look for hecktest's issue 23:19 HuguesRoss #11365 to be precise, there's been a lot of back-and-forth 23:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11365 -- Shadowmaps cannot be disabled by the server 23:19 MTDiscord I have read that in detail. THat does not give a reason why it should not be in the advanced settings 23:20 MTDiscord imo 23:20 MTDiscord Wait, that's why? I can override art with texture packs already 23:20 Pexin personally, i'm more concerned about whether performance is impacted even when disabled in menu. is this still the case? 23:20 Wuzzy tbh shadowmaps isn't the core of the problems actually. the core is poor usability overall. settings are such a mess 23:20 sfan5 don't think so 23:21 MTDiscord I mean, 3d mode is/was broken, and also completely ruins the experience for many of the settings. YOu can enable 3d mode in advanced settings, and it will break every game you try to play. And its on you. 23:21 MTDiscord *settings -> i meant games 23:21 MTDiscord same with shadows 23:21 Wuzzy is it marked as experimental at least? then it should be fine, right? 23:21 sfan5 past mistakes, future mistakes etc. honestly this is a done deal 23:21 MTDiscord yeah 23:22 sfan5 there are more important issues to be discussed 23:22 Pexin wasnt 3d mode fixed? 23:22 sfan5 it was 23:22 erlehmann shadows occur in the end in mcl* mods and it sucks 23:22 erlehmann MisterE that argument shoud be enough 23:23 erlehmann sunless sky, deep underground, still you get shadows 23:23 erlehmann understand? 23:23 MTDiscord sfan5: could you at least make a build for windows, debian, and ubuntu that has shadows enableable, but is otherwise 5.5? That would be greatly appreciated I think 23:23 MTDiscord thats literally against the point of disabling them 23:24 sfan5 you can download all of those from a gitlab pipeline as soon as the change is reverted for 5.6 :) 23:24 MTDiscord eal: yes I completely understand. And if someone had to go digging thru the settings enable shadows, then they can go dig thru the settings to disable them again too when they realize that their personal choice has broken their experience 23:25 erlehmann hey hey rubenwardy ar shadows in ctf cheating? 23:25 Wuzzy so what's the stance on basic_debug now? nuke? try to make a workaround? do nothing? 23:25 erlehmann after all you can basically see around corners with them 23:25 erlehmann nuke nuke nuke nuke 23:25 sfan5 Wuzzy: nothing yet, more opinions needed 23:26 MTDiscord why should basic_debug be nuked? 23:26 MTDiscord im wondering at what point does erlehmann get muted again 23:26 MTDiscord because it removes coords? 23:26 sfan5 I'll post in the issue and try to summarize it 23:27 MTDiscord sfan5, could you make the pipelines more official? Ι tried to show that to someone as a way to try out the latest version, and they doubted that is was safe 23:28 sfan5 dunno how we'd go about that 23:28 Pexin fwiw, I rely on F5 to know what node I'm pointed at a lot 23:28 sfan5 I believe https://gitlab.com/minetest/minetest is mentioned as our official mirror somewhere 23:29 MTDiscord sfan5 like a link on the minetest website that has a download button for the latest dev build. Plenty of FOSS programs do this, like gimp, blender, etc 23:30 sfan5 hm 23:32 MTDiscord a benefit is that more people will try out the latest so you will catch bugs faster 23:33 MTDiscord anyhow, for the record, I dont like shadows being completely disabled for 5.5, and I dont want the basic_debug changed, and now go ahead and do those things if you want cause, really, its not all that important 23:41 Wuzzy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/12014 23:42 Wuzzy #12014 23:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12014 -- Update builtin translation by Wuzzy2 23:42 Wuzzy (I assume we're in string freeze) 23:43 sfan5 basically 23:47 erlehmann HuguesRoss https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11866#issuecomment-1025007529 23:53 sfan5 Krock HuguesRoss opinions wanted -> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12011#issuecomment-1025009227 23:54 sfan5 ~tell v-rob opinions wanted -> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12011#issuecomment-1025009227 23:54 ShadowBot sfan5: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information. 23:54 sfan5 thanks for nothing, ShadowBot 23:54 sfan5 ^ @luatic here's what was being discussed anyway 23:56 MTDiscord thanks 23:57 erlehmann sfan5 this commit seems to be entirely unrelated to the PR it is in. any reason it's there? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11866/commits/197c40ca86fc1a73c3f1bcdf37f5518ec8c95e39 23:57 sfan5 convenience 23:58 erlehmann well i hope you do not squash this 23:58 sfan5 I hope so too 23:59 erlehmann i do not wish to go into it much rn, but i have actually had a fair bit of problems in other projects with topical branches containing cleanup work. it makes porting changes a bit difficult. 23:59 erlehmann i can talk about this later, if you want to, it's … uh … unpleasant.