Time  Nick       Message
00:46 p_gimeno   entuland: that would be best, if you want it visible, otherwise it won't appear in any place that the developers routinely check and it will probably be forgotten
00:47 entuland   thanks p_gimeno, I'll open an issue linking the current version of that file
01:51 paramat    merging game#2225
01:51 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2225 -- Beds: Improve on_rotate function by 12Me21
22:20 paramat    now 3 axis rotations is merged please can we release RC2 this weekend to get testing on that?
22:22 fwhcat     would be great, how can we test 3 axis rotations ? any idea ?
22:22 entuland   I would help but I don't even know if that only applies to entities or to nodes as well
22:23 entuland   and we could really use a saner approach at rotating nodes instead of those axis+rotation values crammed into param2
22:25 hecks      Here's something to grab your attention because I have related questions https://a.uguu.se/xsGyivGkdKiu_screenshot_20190208_232200.png
22:26 entuland   eheheh
22:26 hecks      First; To make this possible I made a ^[raw texture modifier which allows sending raw images in an optimized way
22:26 hecks      My rationale is that sending images is already possible, only inefficient as all hell
22:26 hecks      My approach is to take an indexed image, deflate it, base64 it and then send that
22:27 p_gimeno   the new set_rotation applies to entities only
22:27 hecks      Willing to pack this into a PR if anyone's interested
22:27 entuland   what are we looking at exactly? a real terrain blending against a fake one depicted by a background? hecks
22:27 entuland   thanks for the clarification, p_gimeno
22:28 hecks      entuland; I do some raytracing against the map's perlin noise and render it to the skybox
22:28 entuland   so it's a way to fake stuff that hasn't emerged/loaded yet?
22:28 hecks      Yes
22:28 entuland   that's great
22:29 hecks      The raytracer is entirely in lua; but to send the image efficiently I had to make a new texmod
22:29 hecks      And, of course, it would be better if this were part of the engine
22:29 entuland   it would immensely improve the experience, assuming it could be made performant enough (which dunno, maybe it already is)
22:29 hecks      It's very performant if you don't count the bugs
22:29 entuland   ehehe
22:29 hecks      If it were a part of the engine, it would be almost free
22:30 entuland   that "modulo" is to consider built-in :)
22:30 hecks      and I could make it work at realtime speeds; at lower res it can pull realtime already
22:30 hecks      Not having to send all this crap over the network would help a lot
22:30 entuland   even just low res would feel better than seeing the sharp edges of the loaded terrain against the unloaded chunks
22:31 hecks      It's not without issues; skybox textures are leaked and deflate corrupts the image every now and then
22:31 hecks      https://a.uguu.se/aPA323ZXTb2q_screenshot_20190208_232759.png
22:32 hecks      Effects range from "tilted cartridge" to a segfault; possible cause would be null-in-string issues
22:32 hecks      Base64 alone renders fine
22:32 entuland   implementation details apart, this feature is already a must for me
22:33 hecks      There are basically two separate useful things here; one is sending textures assets dynamically
22:33 hecks      an often requested feature by the people who make and use all those horrible skins
22:33 hecks      Would also make mods like painting a lot less horrible
22:34 hecks      The other is the raytracer, which does not necessarily need this texture thing; as of now it's in lua as a part of my subgame
22:35 entuland   well, dynamic assets like textures and models would have lots of uses, not just ugly skins
22:35 hecks      Raytracing is not the only way to go about it either; I've discussed this before in my farmap proposals
22:35 hecks      Oh, of course. But this concerns procedural, indexed textures only. 256 colors maximum
22:35 hecks      I sure would like it for things like faction flags
22:35 entuland   my wesh mod is pretty much rendered useless by the inability to load models at runtime (along with other limitations, file-access wise) but I guess the underlying irrlicht engine has its part of the blame there
22:36 hecks      It is, ironically, sometimes more efficient than clobbering the texture together with modifiers
22:36 hecks      Irrlicht loads stuff dynamically just fine
22:36 hecks      Problem is that it loads models very slowly
22:36 entuland   then I must have misunderstood some past discussion about that
22:37 hecks      On an unrelated note, I had some ideas for how to make a "script reload" or "soft reset" possible
22:38 entuland   isn't that already possible by proper checks and a simple dofile()?
22:38 hecks      Not if you consider entity state
22:38 hecks      Join callbacks and such
22:38 entuland   yep, those are the checks I've been warned about
22:38 entuland   anyway, what is your idea there?
22:38 hecks      Too many of these "checks" really
22:39 hecks      My idea is to actually restart the server but hide it from users
22:39 entuland   oh
22:39 entuland   that would solve all of the problems I have with wesh!
22:39 entuland   cause I need a restart to make new models available
22:39 entuland   actually, just a world reload, but I guess you meant just that
22:40 hecks      Depends on whether you want new assets or just a script reload
22:41 hecks      For scripts only, all you have to do is freeze the world, reload lua, and treat every player as if they just rejoined
22:41 entuland   no, in my case those models are created by the mod at runtime, saved in the world folder (the only place where I can store stuff at runtime) then moved and loaded from the mod's folder (the only place where I can get textures and models from)
22:42 hecks      Keep in mind that if you only need to make models in init, you can already do this
22:42 hecks      I do some model file postprocessing this way
22:43 entuland   yep, as I said, the mod itself is an .obj generator (it captures nodes from the world, miniaturizes them into a single node)
22:43 paramat    3 axis rotations themselves are tested and behave well, what needs testing is no breakage of existing entity yaw or entity attachment positions, essentially, checking for any breakage
22:43 entuland   so I think I'll always need a full restart
22:44 hecks      Attachments are fubar even without 6DOF, paramat
22:44 paramat    nice farmap
22:47 hecks      oh, right, I got the noise to work with the map seed
22:47 hecks      This also required some api changes
22:48 hecks      There's a bug; the noise functions that didn't work, they don't work in init but they're fine a frame later
22:50 p_gimeno   entuland: do you have a better idea of how to implement node rotations?
22:50 paramat    ok issue please. the noise problem you encountered has been bugging me slightly
22:50 paramat    node rotations are fine
22:51 hecks      another issue with noise; 3D noise doesn't work as expected, it's stretched across one axis
22:51 entuland   p_gimeno: yep, the one I am using in my rhotator mod - matrices
22:51 hecks      Is anyone using this kind of noise successfully?
22:52 entuland   my rhotator already replaces completely the screwdriver behavior, and I use matrices in three of my mods to allow arbitrary placements of nodes and various correlations thereof (wesh and imaging being the other two mods, apart from rhotator)
22:52 p_gimeno   entuland: it would be possible to implement a matrix_to_param2 converter, if that'd help
22:52 entuland   I already have that in place inside all of those mods
22:52 entuland   I also suggested to make all of those matrix functions available in default minetest
22:53 hecks      Are matrices a thing in the lua api yet?
22:53 entuland   I believe I have opened an issue about that
22:53 p_gimeno   entuland: can I read the discussion?
22:53 entuland   not that I know of, hecks, I use a separate repo for that (it's pretty self contained after all)
22:53 entuland   sure, let me get you the link
22:54 hecks      In case some poor soul decides to merge that part from your repo; are your matrices plain arrays?
22:54 entuland   uhm... can't recall off the top of my head, I should look back at them
22:55 p_gimeno   entuland: what's your MSGH username?
22:55 entuland   #7478
22:55 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7478 -- Have math matrix facilities built in Minetest itself
22:55 entuland   I use entuland everywhere
22:56 entuland   and my mods are under entuland as well on github
22:56 hecks      I'm asking because they should be either flat [16] tables or 4x4 tables
22:56 paramat    3D noise is stretched on an axis? i haven't noticed, issue please :)
22:56 entuland   checking
22:57 hecks      Implementing anything else into core will earn you a big fat slap from me; vectors are already badly messed up and I retch every day working with them
22:57 entuland   I'm building those matrices with 3x3 tables fed into the matrix library itself
22:57 p_gimeno   a search for author:enthuland only shows 2 issues, #7478 (open) and #7416 (closed)
22:57 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7478 -- Have math matrix facilities built in Minetest itself
22:57 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7416 -- MeshCollector::append() called with numIndices=89628 (limit 65535)
22:57 entuland   https://github.com/entuland/rhotator/blob/master/init.lua#L63-L125
22:57 hecks      paramat: specifically 3D noise sampler, I don't know and don't care about noisemaps
22:58 entuland   sorry, I just realized I have no idea what MSGH stands for
22:58 p_gimeno   MS GitHub
22:58 entuland   ah okay
22:58 entuland   then yes, still entuland :P
23:01 p_gimeno   nodes can't be flipped (as in, mirror image), right?
23:03 entuland   I'd say not but I'm already pushing myself probably too far by just speaking in this channel :P
23:07 hecks      Anyway, hypothetically, if I felt like rolling farmap into the engine, or going with my original proposal https://a.uguu.se/UneYZk4kAroQ_chart.png
23:08 paramat    ok what i mean is, there are 24 axis-aligned orientations and the encoding of those in param2 seems fine
23:08 entuland   yep, the encoding is fine, the problem is the lack of any facility allowing intuitive rotation between all of those orientations
23:08 hecks      ...it would add some burden on mapgen maintenance; mapgens would need sampleNodeAt and sampleHeightAt functions
23:09 entuland   that's why I had to bring matrices in (if I'm not mistaken the combination of those is 24 factorial or something)
23:09 hecks      Screwdriver node rotations? 6*4
23:10 entuland   that's the outcome of the rotations, not the desirable changes of orientation
23:10 hecks      Tell me what you're trying to do because I joined late on this
23:10 entuland   each orientation could lead to other 8 depending on the performed rotation
23:11 entuland   it all started from the default screwdriver, which only allows rotation around the positive Y axis of the node, and changing the direction that axis point related to the world
23:11 hecks      yup
23:11 entuland   the rhotator allows to rotate any face, no matter the internal positive Y axis of the node
23:12 entuland   and does that using matrices, to combine the current orientation with the desired arbitrary rotation, mapped back to one of the 24 values of axis+rotation to be stored in param2
23:12 entuland   there is a stupid video of mine there in the readme of rhotator, which exposes the problem
23:13 hecks      Rotating the texture on a single face, right?
23:13 entuland   rotating the whole node according to the face you're pointing at
23:13 entuland   hang on a second
23:13 entuland   5 minutes: https://youtu.be/Z2a1iWJNqgs
23:13 hecks      oh, a better screwdriver
23:13 paramat    personally i'm only interested in a completely neutral and general c55 type 3D farmap that doesn't assume a normal surface landscape, this is a game engine and worlds are 3D and can be any type of structure. your farmap wouldn't work for floatlands or underground caverns, or many types of modded structures, or large player builds
23:14 entuland   a better screwdriver is just one of the possible uses of it
23:14 entuland   I've seen other people worrying about the same kind of things when they want to have nodes inspect the surrounding (for instance, the core of a nuclear reactor that will only work depending of certain nodes being around in a specific position)
23:15 entuland   as of now, doing that type of design-dependent nodes is extremely tricky due to the inability to easily work out relative positions of arbitrarily rotated nodes
23:16 entuland   I had the same problem with my capture nodes in wesh, which, again, use matrices to work out both the capture and the rebuilding, no matter what the original orientation is or the rebuilding orientation is
23:16 entuland   wesh works both as an .obj creator and as a dummy world-edit tool
23:17 entuland   which for example allows to capture a build orientated, say, top up, and rotate it to any direction in 90 degrees steps
23:22 hecks      Sounds like trivial stuff, though useful
23:23 hecks      Converting from/to matrices is a good approach
23:24 entuland   oh well, depends who you ask - I had my good moments of despair wrapping my mind around matrices, and people seeing my mod say "a full matrix library just to implement a screwdriver? you're nuts!" and discard my proposal about adding rhotator to their server
23:26 entuland   that's why sooner or later I'll propose to add rhotator to minetest_ game, unless matrices and the rhotator behavior get implemented in other ways (which would be just fine with me)
23:27 hecks      I support adding param_to_matrix and matrix_to_param mappers to core
23:27 entuland   that would be great
23:29 p_gimeno   I'm trying to understand the values enabled by is6d
23:30 hecks      As for the matrix format, let the JIT decide; prefer { {} {} {} {} } but use a flat list if the generated assembly is better
23:30 entuland   I've inspected that as well, but despite the looks, it's of no use for arbitrary rotations, p_gimeno
23:31 p_gimeno   MUCH better if flat, hecks. 20% the number of objects.
23:31 hecks      Have you looked at the actual JIT output?
23:33 entuland   https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/builtin/game/item.lua#L40 is where that dir_to_facedir() is implemented, and doesn't take in account any rotation only deals with axis orientation, if I understand the code properly
23:35 p_gimeno   hecks: no need, really. It's about allocation/deallocation. The values are always allocated and eligible for garbage collection. Note that LJ uses interpreted code until it finds enough repetitions to grant a trace, and even in case of a trace, sometimes it needs to switch to interpreter mode, therefore it does need to allocate them.
23:36 p_gimeno   entuland: if it's really an axis, then a quaternion fits the glove :)
23:36 hecks      Fair point, I've been thinking of lower order matrices but I suppose a flat [16] will still be more efficient than a 3x3
23:36 p_gimeno   flat [9] but yes :)
23:37 entuland   oh well, I could have used quaternions as well, but it was already a struggle to wrap my mind around matrices
23:37 hecks      No, flat [16] because you want the functions to work for all orders; 2D matrices would permit this, but with flat, you kinda have to store it in a 4x4 no matter what
23:38 hecks      it's not a huge penalty though
23:38 entuland   long story short: I've implemented what I believe to be a saner screwdriver, and the only thing I am selfishly interested in is having that behavior in the servers I play in to be able to build my stuff rotating stuff at will
23:38 entuland   and since the discussion here is already passing way over my head I'll take a step back :)
23:38 p_gimeno   entuland: and what I'm interested in is finding an efficient way to do it, in order to implement it in the core
23:39 hecks      For something that happens on a user click, the definition of "efficient" is very lenient
23:39 hecks      and matrices are pretty efficient, no need to reinvent the wheel
23:40 entuland   that's why it's better if I take a step back - I've had hard time doing my mods already and I've been told that it was a stupid approach to begin with, that I should have simply mapped all 24 values into all possible combinations and be done with it
23:40 hecks      mapping param to matrix and back, purely in lua, that's absolutely good enough
23:40 hecks      this is the correct approach, you've been talking to idiots
23:40 entuland   I'm happy to read that :)
23:40 hecks      some people around here just hate matrices though, ha
23:41 hecks      I use matrices in MT just the way I would do in a "big" engine, they're absolutely not the bottleneck
23:42 * entuland phews :P
23:42 entuland   you're giving me back a little self esteem there, cause I thought just the same but I could also understand how a table lookup could beat any calculation
23:43 entuland   just felt stupid to hardcode all the combinations in a huge table
23:43 hecks      from my vector experiments I've concluded that LJ crunches linear algebra almost as well as native implementations, as long as you make code that traces nicely
23:43 hecks      no, a lookup table is the way to go; but you might want to generate this table in init instead of typing it in manually like a moron
23:44 p_gimeno   what is definitely unacceptable for the core is to use strings for comparison, the core should avoid generating garbage as much as possible
23:44 p_gimeno   the vector lib is bad enough already
23:45 entuland   the building of lookup tables on init is there for me, but I still pass through matrices, and yes, I use strings to make lookups because I couldn't think of any better key type there
23:45 hecks      minetest vectors delenda est
23:45 hecks      anyway; matrices involved in the matrix-param map will be entirely integer
23:46 hecks      you can encode them into single numbers for lookups
23:46 p_gimeno   exactly my point
23:46 hecks      *at the same time though* lua handles strings well and it's not a tragedy to string something for a key
23:47 entuland   that's were I couldn't see the simplicity of it - converting a unique matrix into a unique integer, and I still don't see how I could do that other than with a bitmask or the alike, since I deal with unit matrices
23:47 p_gimeno   luajit, not so well
23:47 hecks      especially in server code which doesn't cause stutter, and especially in minetest where there's a hundred of other things that will absolutely bang your performance before the GC ever does
23:47 hecks      oh right, jit