Time  Nick       Message
00:21 rubenwardy It's limited to 8 on Android
00:31 VanessaE   sure, on android it makes sense, but I have for example room for 27 slots on my screen (if Areas mod's HUD doesn't overlap).
17:19 Krock      Hijiri: they'll have to ship compatibility code (if possible) on their own or wait for the next release
17:20 Krock      in the past, when mods depended on dev features, then the mod topic stated "needs a recent -dev build of 0.4.x or later"
17:20 Krock      although, it gets more complicated when old code stops working
18:22 Hijiri     I was thinking of something like dimensions, where basically anywhere a mod was using positions becomes suspect
18:23 Hijiri     though conceivably you could first implement everything except the actual modding interface for creating multiple dimensions (just only have one actual dimension around)
18:24 Hijiri     another issue with dimensions specifically I guess is that there is some disagreement on how it should be implemented
18:25 Hijiri     though maybe that is true about any major feature
18:26 paramat    dimensions don't need to break mods. and changing co-ords to 4D is silly
18:27 paramat    most just want different realms, not true 4D space
18:30 Hijiri     I don't think a non-breaking API can be made
18:30 Hijiri     for example, set node on a position won't go to the right dimension if it's not specified
18:30 Hijiri     like if a mod wants to place dirt next to a player or something, if that player's not in some default dimension then the dirt will be placed in the wrong place
18:31 Hijiri     forgot to mention, the mod used get_position on the player in my mind
18:32 sfan5      there's a simple but stupid way to have non-breaking api, a separate lua state for each realm
18:32 sfan5      that brings some problems with it however
18:32 Hijiri     that is true
18:32 Hijiri     but I want a shared lua state
18:32 Hijiri     keeping shared state consistent could be a lot of trouble for modders
18:32 Hijiri     consistent across multiple lua states I mean
18:38 hecks      are we discussing parallel universes?
18:38 hecks      because a 4D player and node coord *is* in fact the easiest way to implement it
18:39 hecks      it's totally backwards compatible as long as you don't try to do arithmetic on "w"
18:39 Hijiri     Why not just have both a spatial coordinate and a dimension inside some non-position object
18:40 Hijiri     then you can handle the coordinate part as just a 3D coordinate
18:41 hecks      my point is, everything would work as it did before
18:41 Hijiri     define "everything" and "work"
18:41 hecks      while having a separate "realm" id attached to everything could cause issues
18:41 Hijiri     because we would still have the dirt problem I mentioned
18:42 hecks      then consider this
18:42 hecks      mod wants to place dirt next to player
18:42 hecks      it gets player position, adds { x = 1, y = 0, z = 0 } to the position
18:42 paramat    the demand is mostly only because of minecraft, and note that the only reason minecraft has dimensions is because it doesn't have the vertical height to put the nether deep down and the aether or 'end' high up
18:42 hecks      unknown to the mod, the player's position has { w = 1 } as well
18:42 hecks      the dirt's new position is, in fact { foo, bar, baz, 1 }
18:43 hecks      and thus it *is* placed in the right dimension
18:43 Hijiri     suppose that the mod didn't use the addition function, and instead they did { x = v.x, y = v.y + 1, z = v.z }
18:43 paramat    so ironically, dimensions are a result of minecraft lacking the feature MT has
18:43 Hijiri     Then it's still broken
18:43 Hijiri     paramat: That's true, for the original use case
18:43 Hijiri     however minecraft mods have expanded its use so that they can't be implemented in minetest
18:43 Hijiri     If we're comparing minetest to minecraft we need to compare it to minecraft forge as a modding platform, since minetest is intending to be modded
18:44 Hijiri     obvious example is mystcraft, where you can travel to other worlds using books (like in myst)
18:44 Hijiri     I think dimensional doors mod also allows players to create dimensions?
18:45 Hijiri     forgot an important point, in mystcraft each new book goes to a new procedurally-generated dimension
18:45 hecks      if float precision wasn't an issue, you could just encode dimensions as any position outside of the mapgen boundary
18:46 Hijiri     yes
18:46 hecks      and sure enough, you can use horizontal slices of minetest's obscene amount of unused space if you're stubborn
18:46 hecks      I might just do that, myself
18:46 Hijiri     actually if in lua you could represent a larger integer then I would support just making minetest have 32 bit y coordinate
18:46 Hijiri     and then use stacked dimensions
18:47 hecks      lua can represent some pretty huge numbers, lua's type is double unless it's compiled to use something else
18:47 Hijiri     if the y coordinate was 32 bits then the hashed position would be 64 bits, you can't fit a 64 bit integer in a double
18:47 paramat    dimensions is low priority, the work needed and disruption makes it not worth doing in the short/medium term. we can barely cope with the essentials currently, in fact, we can't even do that. however it's cool to discuss it :)
18:47 Hijiri     what essentials are we struggling with
18:48 Hijiri     CSM comes to mind, but not sure if it's essential
18:48 hecks      I think it's a non-issue given how much space in +Y you have to fit your dimensions in
18:48 hecks      { foo, 10000+, bar } will work just fine
18:48 Hijiri     currently there's only space for 64 dimensions of height 1024
18:48 hecks      floatlands are at 1200ish and that's really, really far
18:49 Hijiri     what if 64 players make a myst book
18:49 Shara      Has there been any practical case of someone needing more than 64?
18:49 Hijiri     then you'll need 65 dimensions (1 for the main world, assuming there is one)
18:49 Hijiri     Shara: In Minetest?
18:49 hecks      if you want an infinite number of full, persistent dimensions each having a whole map, then oh well, check out and start coding
18:50 Hijiri     I gave some examples of mods not from Minetest, that would probably still be fun and usable if they were done in Minetest
18:50 Shara      I would assume that MT is what we're talking about :P
18:50 hecks      but for something like temporary instances for players to grind in, we have enough space
18:50 hecks      I think you're even allowed to create mapblocks outside of the 32k radius, is that correct?
18:50 Shara      And I can't imagine a player needing the full x/z distance for themselves?
18:51 Hijiri     even if you don't need the full x/z distance, it's better if you're not stopped after walking a certain distance in one direction
18:51 Hijiri     in mystcraft the additional worlds are conceptually the same size as the main world
18:52 hecks      minetest will eventually stop you, even on the main map... but the boundary takes 25 minutes to reach at flying speed
18:52 Hijiri     you're not going to generate most of the world but you are able to walk as far as you would be in the normal world
18:52 paramat    we might eventually move to s32 co-ords, which would be good, then you have more vertical space for stacked dimensions than you could ever need
18:52 Hijiri     I agree with that
18:52 Hijiri     that would be great
18:53 Hijiri     Only thing really blocking that is the numeric position hash exposed to lua, but maybe removing that would be less disruptive than changing everything to do with positions
18:53 hecks      I just wonder what do you need so many dimensions for, other than "meinkraft has it"
18:53 Shara      How maps are saved and the space needed feels like an issue that would need to be sorted out first to make it practical either way
18:53 Hijiri     hecks: if someone wanted to implement mystcraft in minetest
18:54 paramat    anyway, the actual concept and desire here is new realms, not 4D space. new realms can be done without breaking API
18:54 Hijiri     Shara: A block in another dimension doesn't have to take any more space that a block in the default dimension
18:54 paramat    also VAEs are in the TODO and could possibly be used for smaller dimensions
18:54 hecks      I hardly know what mystcraft is, I just wonder, what for...
18:55 hecks      MT worlds are big enough that you can never meet another player if you want to
18:55 Hijiri     it's a mod where you craft books, each of which takes you two a unique dimension
18:55 hecks      yeah, and... what for?
18:55 Hijiri     and you can make custom books to find a world with specific properties if you want
18:55 Shara      Hijiri: I run a server where I limit that map at 7k from 0 in all directions.. and it easily reached 20GB in size. If you feel the current space is not enough, how large will maps get regardless of number of dimensions?
18:55 hecks      if it's for infinite random grind, there are ways to do that with more modest requirements
18:55 Hijiri     hecks: I don't know, why play minetest?
18:55 hecks      to play with blocks, then get bored, and spend the rest of your week programming in lua
18:55 hecks      why else
18:56 Hijiri     Shara: infinite dimensions doesn't mean players will explore infinitely many more blocks
18:56 paramat    i think a reachable edge is more interesting than no practically reachable edge. the edge is interesting to visit
18:56 Shara      Personally I don't feel like managing 100GB+ maps just so players can each get their own personal dimension to walk along until they hit the map edge
18:57 hecks      I play minetest for the moe anime girls https://a.uguu.se/GTDUpp3TM0jJ_ffgsfds.png
18:57 Hijiri     I guess don't install mysttest on a large server then
18:58 Shara      The number of players who go wandering is pretty high. When they are all in one dimension, you hit a point where the map was already generated, so the size increase of the map over time starts to drop. If those wanderers all had their own dimension, you'd not get that drop... mapsize growth could easily be crazy
18:58 Hijiri     that's also assuming that every player is going to use the mod
18:58 hecks      if you want your own dimension... play sp
18:58 Shara      Well, not using it on a busy server invalidates your point about needing 64+ dimensions then
18:58 Hijiri     One player could create more than one dimension
18:59 Hijiri     In that case you don't have the same problem as a bunch of players creating their own dimension, because that player is probably not going to walk to the edge of all their created dimensions
18:59 Shara      One player could also make multiple worlds. Sorry - it's just my opinion, but it seems really low priority compared to other things
19:00 Hijiri     I just said that a player could make multiple worlds, are you responding to that?
19:00 Hijiri     I don't understand your message (the first part)
19:00 Shara      Well, the end part is what matters
19:01 Hijiri     Ok, I can understand that
19:01 hecks      by the way, this is a topic more for #minetest
19:02 hecks      dev is where you'd discuss things you're actually doing
19:02 Hijiri     probably it would fit there better
19:02 Hijiri     this began as a question about development logistics
19:03 paramat    anyway, see the issue, it's all very non-trivial. for 'dimensions' i would only support dividing up our vertical space, which can be done now with a new core mapgen and no complex changes
19:04 paramat    yeah another channel is better :)
19:04 Hijiri     probably should have each mod declare a max number of dimensions it will create too, to avoid overbooking the dimensions
19:12 Krock      merging #2221
19:12 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2221 -- minetest.get_craft_recipe returns different table than lua_api claims
19:12 Krock      game#2221
19:12 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2221 -- map: Use wood group crafting recipe by SmallJoker
19:13 Krock      done
20:02 paramat    #7651 test fine in inventory and using unified inventory, no fuzziness that krock gets
20:02 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7651 -- Simpler software inventorycube by numberZero
20:15 paramat    reviews needed
21:45 sfan5      paramat: was the distortion with that fixed yet?
22:02 paramat    oh ..
22:02 paramat    well
22:02 paramat    krock sees distortion when using unified inventory, but i don't
22:02 paramat    sfan5 ^
22:03 paramat    that is, the PR as it is, not the hgher res alternative
22:03 sfan5      hm
22:03 sfan5      will have to take another look
22:04 paramat    so i don't think the high res version is needed
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22:27 sfan5      lmao
22:48 paramat    oh man
22:54 hecks      is that thing using emoji to scramble letters?
22:54 hecks      cause I see a lot of dead chars
22:54 sfan5      you mean s/emoji/unicode/, yes
23:04 sfan5      paramat: the pr is certainly okay in the normal inventory, haven't tested unified inv yet
23:05 sfan5      yep looks "fuzzy" in unified inv too for me
23:10 paramat    odd
23:10 paramat    https://github.com/minetest/minetest.github.io/pull/142 updated
23:24 paramat    however i feel we should investigate why image buttons are fuzzy
23:25 hecks      continuing the huge model problem; compression would help a little... https://a.uguu.se/FiisAMKx0crU_filesize.png