Minetest logo

IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2018-09-24

| Channels | #minetest-dev index | Today | | Google Search | Plaintext

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:21 rubenwardy It's limited to 8 on Android
00:31 VanessaE sure, on android it makes sense, but I have for example room for 27 slots on my screen (if Areas mod's HUD doesn't overlap).
01:05 ANAND joined #minetest-dev
03:01 Ruslan1 joined #minetest-dev
04:00 reductum joined #minetest-dev
06:27 calcul0n joined #minetest-dev
09:15 calcul0n joined #minetest-dev
09:54 YuGiOhJCJ joined #minetest-dev
10:06 calcul0n joined #minetest-dev
10:16 Beton joined #minetest-dev
11:23 p_gimeno joined #minetest-dev
11:38 calcul0n joined #minetest-dev
11:54 Fixer joined #minetest-dev
12:36 Fixer joined #minetest-dev
13:58 hecks joined #minetest-dev
14:07 Beton_ joined #minetest-dev
14:50 pgimeno_ joined #minetest-dev
14:58 p_gimeno joined #minetest-dev
15:48 Fixer joined #minetest-dev
16:47 Krock joined #minetest-dev
16:56 Gael-de-Sailly joined #minetest-dev
17:02 paramat joined #minetest-dev
17:19 Krock Hijiri: they'll have to ship compatibility code (if possible) on their own or wait for the next release
17:20 Krock in the past, when mods depended on dev features, then the mod topic stated "needs a recent -dev build of 0.4.x or later"
17:20 Krock although, it gets more complicated when old code stops working
18:02 hecks joined #minetest-dev
18:22 Hijiri I was thinking of something like dimensions, where basically anywhere a mod was using positions becomes suspect
18:23 Hijiri though conceivably you could first implement everything except the actual modding interface for creating multiple dimensions (just only have one actual dimension around)
18:24 Hijiri another issue with dimensions specifically I guess is that there is some disagreement on how it should be implemented
18:25 Hijiri though maybe that is true about any major feature
18:26 paramat dimensions don't need to break mods. and changing co-ords to 4D is silly
18:27 paramat most just want different realms, not true 4D space
18:30 Hijiri I don't think a non-breaking API can be made
18:30 Hijiri for example, set node on a position won't go to the right dimension if it's not specified
18:30 Hijiri like if a mod wants to place dirt next to a player or something, if that player's not in some default dimension then the dirt will be placed in the wrong place
18:31 Hijiri forgot to mention, the mod used get_position on the player in my mind
18:32 sfan5 there's a simple but stupid way to have non-breaking api, a separate lua state for each realm
18:32 sfan5 that brings some problems with it however
18:32 Hijiri that is true
18:32 Hijiri but I want a shared lua state
18:32 Hijiri keeping shared state consistent could be a lot of trouble for modders
18:32 Hijiri consistent across multiple lua states I mean
18:38 hecks are we discussing parallel universes?
18:38 hecks because a 4D player and node coord *is* in fact the easiest way to implement it
18:39 hecks it's totally backwards compatible as long as you don't try to do arithmetic on "w"
18:39 Hijiri Why not just have both a spatial coordinate and a dimension inside some non-position object
18:40 Hijiri then you can handle the coordinate part as just a 3D coordinate
18:41 hecks my point is, everything would work as it did before
18:41 Hijiri define "everything" and "work"
18:41 hecks while having a separate "realm" id attached to everything could cause issues
18:41 Hijiri because we would still have the dirt problem I mentioned
18:42 hecks then consider this
18:42 hecks mod wants to place dirt next to player
18:42 hecks it gets player position, adds { x = 1, y = 0, z = 0 } to the position
18:42 paramat the demand is mostly only because of minecraft, and note that the only reason minecraft has dimensions is because it doesn't have the vertical height to put the nether deep down and the aether or 'end' high up
18:42 hecks unknown to the mod, the player's position has { w = 1 } as well
18:42 hecks the dirt's new position is, in fact { foo, bar, baz, 1 }
18:43 hecks and thus it *is* placed in the right dimension
18:43 Hijiri suppose that the mod didn't use the addition function, and instead they did { x = v.x, y = v.y + 1, z = v.z }
18:43 paramat so ironically, dimensions are a result of minecraft lacking the feature MT has
18:43 Hijiri Then it's still broken
18:43 Hijiri paramat: That's true, for the original use case
18:43 Hijiri however minecraft mods have expanded its use so that they can't be implemented in minetest
18:43 Hijiri If we're comparing minetest to minecraft we need to compare it to minecraft forge as a modding platform, since minetest is intending to be modded
18:44 Hijiri obvious example is mystcraft, where you can travel to other worlds using books (like in myst)
18:44 Hijiri I think dimensional doors mod also allows players to create dimensions?
18:45 Hijiri forgot an important point, in mystcraft each new book goes to a new procedurally-generated dimension
18:45 hecks if float precision wasn't an issue, you could just encode dimensions as any position outside of the mapgen boundary
18:46 Hijiri yes
18:46 hecks and sure enough, you can use horizontal slices of minetest's obscene amount of unused space if you're stubborn
18:46 hecks I might just do that, myself
18:46 Hijiri actually if in lua you could represent a larger integer then I would support just making minetest have 32 bit y coordinate
18:46 Hijiri and then use stacked dimensions
18:47 hecks lua can represent some pretty huge numbers, lua's type is double unless it's compiled to use something else
18:47 Hijiri if the y coordinate was 32 bits then the hashed position would be 64 bits, you can't fit a 64 bit integer in a double
18:47 paramat dimensions is low priority, the work needed and disruption makes it not worth doing in the short/medium term. we can barely cope with the essentials currently, in fact, we can't even do that. however it's cool to discuss it :)
18:47 Hijiri what essentials are we struggling with
18:48 Hijiri CSM comes to mind, but not sure if it's essential
18:48 hecks I think it's a non-issue given how much space in +Y you have to fit your dimensions in
18:48 hecks { foo, 10000+, bar } will work just fine
18:48 Hijiri currently there's only space for 64 dimensions of height 1024
18:48 hecks floatlands are at 1200ish and that's really, really far
18:49 Hijiri what if 64 players make a myst book
18:49 Shara Has there been any practical case of someone needing more than 64?
18:49 Hijiri then you'll need 65 dimensions (1 for the main world, assuming there is one)
18:49 Hijiri Shara: In Minetest?
18:49 hecks if you want an infinite number of full, persistent dimensions each having a whole map, then oh well, check out and start coding
18:50 Hijiri I gave some examples of mods not from Minetest, that would probably still be fun and usable if they were done in Minetest
18:50 Shara I would assume that MT is what we're talking about :P
18:50 hecks but for something like temporary instances for players to grind in, we have enough space
18:50 hecks I think you're even allowed to create mapblocks outside of the 32k radius, is that correct?
18:50 Shara And I can't imagine a player needing the full x/z distance for themselves?
18:51 Hijiri even if you don't need the full x/z distance, it's better if you're not stopped after walking a certain distance in one direction
18:51 Hijiri in mystcraft the additional worlds are conceptually the same size as the main world
18:52 hecks minetest will eventually stop you, even on the main map... but the boundary takes 25 minutes to reach at flying speed
18:52 Hijiri you're not going to generate most of the world but you are able to walk as far as you would be in the normal world
18:52 paramat we might eventually move to s32 co-ords, which would be good, then you have more vertical space for stacked dimensions than you could ever need
18:52 Hijiri I agree with that
18:52 Hijiri that would be great
18:53 Hijiri Only thing really blocking that is the numeric position hash exposed to lua, but maybe removing that would be less disruptive than changing everything to do with positions
18:53 hecks I just wonder what do you need so many dimensions for, other than "meinkraft has it"
18:53 Shara How maps are saved and the space needed feels like an issue that would need to be sorted out first to make it practical either way
18:53 Hijiri hecks: if someone wanted to implement mystcraft in minetest
18:54 paramat anyway, the actual concept and desire here is new realms, not 4D space. new realms can be done without breaking API
18:54 Hijiri Shara: A block in another dimension doesn't have to take any more space that a block in the default dimension
18:54 paramat also VAEs are in the TODO and could possibly be used for smaller dimensions
18:54 hecks I hardly know what mystcraft is, I just wonder, what for...
18:55 hecks MT worlds are big enough that you can never meet another player if you want to
18:55 Hijiri it's a mod where you craft books, each of which takes you two a unique dimension
18:55 hecks yeah, and... what for?
18:55 Hijiri and you can make custom books to find a world with specific properties if you want
18:55 Shara Hijiri: I run a server where I limit that map at 7k from 0 in all directions.. and it easily reached 20GB in size. If you feel the current space is not enough, how large will maps get regardless of number of dimensions?
18:55 hecks if it's for infinite random grind, there are ways to do that with more modest requirements
18:55 Hijiri hecks: I don't know, why play minetest?
18:55 hecks to play with blocks, then get bored, and spend the rest of your week programming in lua
18:55 hecks why else
18:56 Hijiri Shara: infinite dimensions doesn't mean players will explore infinitely many more blocks
18:56 paramat i think a reachable edge is more interesting than no practically reachable edge. the edge is interesting to visit
18:56 Shara Personally I don't feel like managing 100GB+ maps just so players can each get their own personal dimension to walk along until they hit the map edge
18:57 hecks I play minetest for the moe anime girls https://a.uguu.se/GTDUpp3TM0jJ_ffgsfds.png
18:57 Hijiri I guess don't install mysttest on a large server then
18:58 Shara The number of players who go wandering is pretty high. When they are all in one dimension, you hit a point where the map was already generated, so the size increase of the map over time starts to drop. If those wanderers all had their own dimension, you'd not get that drop... mapsize growth could easily be crazy
18:58 Hijiri that's also assuming that every player is going to use the mod
18:58 hecks if you want your own dimension... play sp
18:58 Shara Well, not using it on a busy server invalidates your point about needing 64+ dimensions then
18:58 Hijiri One player could create more than one dimension
18:59 Hijiri In that case you don't have the same problem as a bunch of players creating their own dimension, because that player is probably not going to walk to the edge of all their created dimensions
18:59 Shara One player could also make multiple worlds. Sorry - it's just my opinion, but it seems really low priority compared to other things
19:00 Hijiri I just said that a player could make multiple worlds, are you responding to that?
19:00 Hijiri I don't understand your message (the first part)
19:00 Shara Well, the end part is what matters
19:01 Hijiri Ok, I can understand that
19:01 hecks by the way, this is a topic more for #minetest
19:02 hecks dev is where you'd discuss things you're actually doing
19:02 Hijiri probably it would fit there better
19:02 Hijiri this began as a question about development logistics
19:03 paramat anyway, see the issue, it's all very non-trivial. for 'dimensions' i would only support dividing up our vertical space, which can be done now with a new core mapgen and no complex changes
19:04 paramat yeah another channel is better :)
19:04 Hijiri probably should have each mod declare a max number of dimensions it will create too, to avoid overbooking the dimensions
19:12 Krock merging #2221
19:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2221 -- minetest.get_craft_recipe returns different table than lua_api claims
19:12 Krock game#2221
19:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2221 -- map: Use wood group crafting recipe by SmallJoker
19:13 Krock done
19:14 behalebabo joined #minetest-dev
19:20 Lymkwi joined #minetest-dev
19:37 Taoki joined #minetest-dev
20:02 paramat #7651 test fine in inventory and using unified inventory, no fuzziness that krock gets
20:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7651 -- Simpler software inventorycube by numberZero
20:15 paramat reviews needed
20:26 mrchiantos joined #minetest-dev
20:30 Taoki joined #minetest-dev
21:22 paramat joined #minetest-dev
21:35 bigfoot547 joined #minetest-dev
21:35 bigfoot547 joined #minetest-dev
21:45 sfan5 paramat: was the distortion with that fixed yet?
22:02 paramat oh ..
22:02 paramat well
22:02 paramat krock sees distortion when using unified inventory, but i don't
22:02 paramat sfan5 ^
22:03 paramat that is, the PR as it is, not the hgher res alternative
22:03 sfan5 hm
22:03 sfan5 will have to take another look
22:04 paramat so i don't think the high res version is needed
22:26 ewong4 joined #minetest-dev
22:26 ewong4 Αfter thе aϲq∪іsitiοn by Priᴠɑte Internet Acceѕs, Frᥱеnode іs ᥒow being usеⅾ tο p∪ѕһ IСO sсaⅿs httⲣs:⧸/ᴡww.coindesk.cοⅿ/hanⅾshɑkе-revᥱalеd╴ⅴcs-bɑck-plɑᥒ-to-gⅰve-аᴡaỿ−100˗mⅰlⅼⅰഠᥒ-ⅰᥒ-crуptο/
22:27 ewong4 "Αⅼl tolԁ, Hаndѕһаkе ɑіmѕ tο gⅰve $ᒿ50 worth of іts tokenѕ to ﹡еaϲh* ᥙser of tһе websiteѕ tһe comрany haѕ рɑrtᥒᥱrѕhⅰрs wⅰtһ – GitHubᛧ thе Ⲣ2P ᖴoundɑtіon and *ᖴREENⲞDᎬ*, a ϲhɑt cһanᥒеⅼ fഠr pᥱer˗to-рeer рroјeсts. Ꭺs such, ...
22:27 ewong4 ԁе⋁eⅼoрᥱrs ᴡho һɑvе existinɡ ɑϲcounts οᥒ eɑϲh coulԁ receive up tο $750 wortһ of Handshake tokᥱᥒѕ."
22:27 ewong4 Hɑᥒԁshake crỿptⲟⅽurrency sϲam is oреrɑteⅾ bу Αᥒdrew Ⅼее (276⎼88-05ℨᏮ), tһe fraᥙdster ⅰᥒ chiᥱf ɑt Рrіvatе Iᥒternеt Aⅽcesѕ wһicһ ᥒow owᥒѕ Frеenoԁе
22:27 ewong4 ᖴreeᥒοdе ⅰs rᥱgiѕtered аs a "privɑte comⲣany limiteⅾ by ɡᥙarantᥱᥱ ᴡitһο∪t sharе ⅽapital" performing "ɑϲtіvitіeѕ of ഠtһer ⅿеmbеrshiр оrɡɑᥒiѕɑtiⲟns not ᥱlsewһere clаѕsified"ˏ wіth Ꮯhrіѕtel and Аᥒⅾrеᴡ ᒪeе ﹙PIA's fo∪ᥒdеr) ɑѕ ⲟffісerѕ, aᥒԁ Aᥒⅾrew Ꮮеe hаving thе ⅿаjοritỿ of votinɡ riɡhts
22:27 sfan5 lmao
22:37 YuGiOhJCJ joined #minetest-dev
22:48 paramat oh man
22:53 longerstaff13_ joined #minetest-dev
22:54 hecks is that thing using emoji to scramble letters?
22:54 hecks cause I see a lot of dead chars
22:54 sfan5 you mean s/emoji/unicode/, yes
23:04 sfan5 paramat: the pr is certainly okay in the normal inventory, haven't tested unified inv yet
23:05 sfan5 yep looks "fuzzy" in unified inv too for me
23:08 ssieb joined #minetest-dev
23:09 Ruslan1 joined #minetest-dev
23:10 paramat odd
23:10 paramat https://github.com/minetest/minetest.github.io/pull/142 updated
23:16 ircSparky joined #minetest-dev
23:24 paramat however i feel we should investigate why image buttons are fuzzy
23:25 hecks continuing the huge model problem; compression would help a little... https://a.uguu.se/FiisAMKx0crU_filesize.png

| Channels | #minetest-dev index | Today | | Google Search | Plaintext