Time |
Nick |
Message |
00:17 |
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06:11 |
srifqi |
I've pushed bugfix and other thing to #7126. |
06:11 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7126 -- Android: Replace movement buttons with joystick by srifqi |
06:11 |
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14:36 |
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15:02 |
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15:02 |
paramat |
i can be here for a meeting if there is one |
15:02 |
rubenwardy |
same |
15:05 |
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15:10 |
Krock |
same |
15:11 |
Krock |
I will do the overview page again.. and probably also try to lead the meeting unless someone else would like to :) |
15:26 |
paramat |
#7218 is ready |
15:26 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7218 -- Biome API / dungeons: Add biome-defined dungeon nodes by paramat |
15:30 |
paramat |
maybe the meeting can be an hour later for the sake of nerzhul ? |
15:33 |
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15:34 |
Krock |
paramat, so 19:00 UTC or 20:00 UTC? |
15:36 |
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15:40 |
paramat |
i can do either so that depends on nerz and others |
15:41 |
paramat |
it just seems nerz is eating usually, so maybe 20:00? |
15:43 |
Krock |
paramat, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7218/files#diff-de0abb99d5d1ebb341608aa9d0040fdeR953 were those adjusted to keep the limits the dungeon size similar for the different biomes? |
15:44 |
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15:45 |
paramat |
yes this is a change of dungeon size for fallback dungeons (usually ice dungeons) i should have mentioned that. i prefer 2-wide corridors and slightly wider rooms for the fallback |
15:45 |
paramat |
that size is the same as sandstone dungeons |
15:47 |
paramat |
for the fallback i am trying to use a medium scale of dungeon. cobble dungeons are small and claustrophobic, desert temples are high and wide, sandstone dungeons are inbetween |
15:49 |
Krock |
it's good to have some variety :) |
15:52 |
paramat |
hm remember clocks have shifted (unfortunately and stupidly), in case 20 UTC is now to late for central europe |
15:53 |
paramat |
BST = British Stupid Time |
15:54 |
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16:00 |
Krock |
so.. 20:00 BST/UTC+1? :D |
16:01 |
rubenwardy |
what's that in the UK? |
16:01 |
rubenwardy |
oh wait, nvm |
16:04 |
paramat |
nerzhul nore sfan5 Shara sofar what UTC time is best for you if you can make it? |
16:05 |
sfan5 |
same as alwys |
16:05 |
sfan5 |
+a |
16:05 |
Shara |
It's a weekend, so usually anything's fine for me :) |
16:06 |
paramat |
i guess 19 CET is the usual? |
16:08 |
paramat |
ah now it's CEST =/ |
16:19 |
rubenwardy |
what time is the meeting? |
16:27 |
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16:51 |
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17:01 |
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17:01 |
rubenwardy |
paramat: |
17:01 |
paramat |
no idea |
17:01 |
paramat |
how about in 1 hour? |
17:08 |
paramat |
nerzhul could you do a meeting in 1 hour? |
17:21 |
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17:23 |
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17:35 |
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17:37 |
Krock |
srifqi, FYI: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7126#issuecomment-377770019 there's an image.. white on white. Just in case you thought it'd be a joke/april fool |
17:39 |
srifqi |
I already realised that. :D |
17:45 |
Krock |
good :) |
17:49 |
Krock |
ah, these summer/winter timezones.. I have no clue how "usually" is defined |
17:50 |
Krock |
nerzhul, nore, paramat, rubenwardy, sfan5, Shara, sofar. Would you have some time in half an hour for the meeting? I believe anything earlier will be too spontaneous |
17:52 |
paramat |
oh my arrow image |
17:52 |
Shara |
Sure |
17:53 |
paramat |
i use custom colours on my browser, with a black background, so that arrow shows up correctly for me |
17:54 |
paramat |
anyway yes i'm here from now onwards |
17:55 |
Krock |
paramat, the image is also linked, so even on white background it's possible to see that there's an actual image |
17:55 |
rubenwardy |
looks like empty space too me |
17:55 |
rubenwardy |
but it's easy to realise |
17:56 |
paramat |
hehe i made an unintended april fool |
17:56 |
Krock |
Great, so we'll be at least four devs (if I count rubenwardy too) to do the meeting |
17:59 |
Krock |
I've got a question in advance: Should we also include MTG pulls/discussions into the meetings again? I think that would be a good idea because all MTG devs have access to the team page |
17:59 |
Krock |
and the follow-up question: What's to discuss there? I'm probably not up-do-date about what happens in that repo |
18:00 |
rubenwardy |
Mobs, obviously |
18:01 |
rubenwardy |
XD |
18:01 |
rubenwardy |
the current main topics are tool balance, and that farming PR |
18:02 |
Shara |
I think what's needed for farming is straight forward enough now |
18:02 |
rubenwardy |
sure |
18:02 |
Shara |
Don't see any issues other than the recipes anyway, and fixing that is a start toward tool balance |
18:03 |
rubenwardy |
the way I'd want to fix tool balance would cause breakage, so it's better to just fix what we can |
18:03 |
rubenwardy |
leave better tool systems to other games |
18:03 |
Shara |
same problem I'm having with MTG tools |
18:07 |
Krock |
okay, added to the list |
18:10 |
Foz |
has the /shutdown command with a delay ever worked? |
18:10 |
paramat |
yes discussing MTG is good for meeting, good chance |
18:10 |
Krock |
Foz, probably only in 0.4.17-dev or 0.5.0-dev |
18:11 |
Krock |
it's been a long time since our last release so it's easily possible that the fix was already merged months ago |
18:12 |
paramat |
i'll merge #7218 later |
18:12 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7218 -- Biome API / dungeons: Add biome-defined dungeon nodes by paramat |
18:12 |
Foz |
builtin/game/chatcommands.lua line 827 seems very wrong |
18:12 |
Foz |
local delay, reconnect, message = param:match("([^ ][-]?[0-9]+)([^ ]+)(.*)") |
18:14 |
Krock |
the 2nd argument looks a bit weird indeed. shouldn't that accept a word like "true"? uhm.. |
18:14 |
Foz |
and the delay match must start with a non space character before the number |
18:15 |
Foz |
but then it won't resolve to a number |
18:16 |
Krock |
sorry? -1412 resolves to a number |
18:17 |
Foz |
> param = "-1412" |
18:17 |
Foz |
> delay, reconnect, message = param:match("([^ ][-]?[0-9]+)([^ ]+)(.*)") |
18:17 |
Foz |
> print(delay, reconnect, message) |
18:17 |
Foz |
-1412 |
18:19 |
paramat |
meeting time |
18:20 |
paramat |
about 0.4.17, apparently it's released in a week but that seems too soon. i still need to go through MTG and check what should be included in backports, and there is stuff to add to MTE backports. then what about testing? |
18:20 |
Krock |
rubenwardy, Shara: We'd like to start the meeting ^ |
18:21 |
paramat |
maybe PR freeze in a week then a few days testing? |
18:21 |
paramat |
anyway i see no need to rush, 2 weeks from now? |
18:21 |
Krock |
So the question is how fast the backports can be updated to get us some time to test |
18:22 |
paramat |
realistically it will take me a few days to go over MTG backports, i don't want to rush myself |
18:23 |
Krock |
I'd say we're setting a date to when the backports should be complete, so we can focus on testing |
18:23 |
Krock |
2 weeks are of course a long time and luckily I've got some time then to test |
18:24 |
paramat |
that sounds a good time then |
18:24 |
paramat |
so you mean complete in 2 weeks? then test |
18:24 |
paramat |
21st april |
18:25 |
Krock |
hat's not exactly what I meant. I've got more time than usual before release to test |
18:26 |
paramat |
we should go over engine backports too and add any missing bugfixes |
18:26 |
Krock |
so if the backports can be done in, say, 8 days that's surely enough time to test afterwards |
18:26 |
paramat |
that's ok with me |
18:27 |
paramat |
so essentially a freeze in a week |
18:27 |
Krock |
exactly |
18:28 |
paramat |
ok, i was concerned earlier about having testing done within a week too |
18:28 |
Krock |
oh boy. I just looked at the forum post, where it looks like we'd rush in testing for only a few days |
18:28 |
paramat |
so freeze on 15th april |
18:29 |
paramat |
yes release on 15th is too soon |
18:29 |
Krock |
to be fair, we also said this in December |
18:30 |
paramat |
so, over the next week i'll go over MTG backports, check what should be there and anything that needs adding |
18:32 |
srifqi |
Sorry to disturb, but please update translation. (^_^" |
18:32 |
srifqi |
... can we? |
18:32 |
Krock |
heh, question is whether moving the release date again will be fine for the other devs. If we do, then it'll be the last date |
18:32 |
Krock |
srifqi, of course. we have an update script somewhere |
18:33 |
srifqi |
Is that updatepo.sh? .-. |
18:33 |
paramat |
well rushing a release is always a mistake, it has to be the right time. but let's try to release in 2 weeks from now |
18:35 |
Krock |
srifqi, exactly. Well great, I haven't worked with translations yet and the wiki page has not a single word for the process with them >.> |
18:37 |
nerzhul |
hey, we can release core earlier than MTG if needed, bug android need both. Just edit the date when you have a good date |
18:38 |
nerzhul |
don't try, we have an announcement |
18:38 |
paramat |
well the announcement is too soon :] |
18:39 |
paramat |
and MTG should be released at the same time, as always |
18:39 |
nerzhul |
okay, just comment on it when you have a good date and i will edit |
18:39 |
paramat |
about MTG tool balance, i'm considering making a post in the forums about a possible deprecation of bronze tools, leading to an eventual removal, since they are such a mess. copper, tin, bronze ingots wil be kept. the forum post will be to gauge how disruptive this will be, however i now feel a little breakage is worth it |
18:40 |
* rubenwardy |
cries |
18:40 |
Shara |
Hah |
18:40 |
rubenwardy |
Bronze has real life progressional value |
18:40 |
rubenwardy |
Like, the bronze age |
18:40 |
rubenwardy |
There's no wood age |
18:40 |
paramat |
the relevant issue is https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1681 for your later reading |
18:41 |
rubenwardy |
No diamond age |
18:41 |
paramat |
well, yes, but you know it's a mess and bronze tools were a mistake :) |
18:41 |
nerzhul |
i really like having real life things in a MC/MT game :) |
18:42 |
rubenwardy |
The issue isn't bronze tools |
18:42 |
Shara |
The problem is bronze doesn't fit as it is... but making it fit would involve breakage |
18:42 |
rubenwardy |
The issue is how easy it is to get to steel tools with skipping |
18:42 |
Krock |
wooden tools are generally useless but still offered because stone requires a pickaxe to be mined |
18:43 |
Shara |
Tree punching... |
18:43 |
Krock |
however, bronze is a good material which was actually used in the past |
18:43 |
paramat |
well, it's just a suggestion, i'm not too bothered, but there are good reasons to do so, see the thread |
18:44 |
Shara |
Would be good to know if anyone had any way (short of rewriting the whole tool system) to make the bronze tools worthwhile |
18:44 |
paramat |
i would like to remove wood tools too i agree, but that may be more disruptive, and need new ores (loose rock nodes) |
18:45 |
Krock |
speeding up and making the bronze tools a little more durable wouldn't solve the problem then? |
18:45 |
nerzhul |
wood tool is a early game tool, i think all those discussion are too near releasing |
18:46 |
paramat |
it's not for release |
18:48 |
paramat |
krock well bronze can't be > steel, but is currently, but then see the ore depths. essentially bronze tools make mess of everything, as has been known for a long time |
18:48 |
paramat |
anyway this will get too bikesheddy for meeting :) |
18:49 |
paramat |
i shouldn't have mentioned it heh |
18:49 |
Fixer |
i would rather keep wood, stone, steel, diamond and remove everything else in all tools, imagine introducing armour into that, we will have 6 tiers of helmets, leggings, etc? |
18:49 |
Krock |
we're having the meeting to discuss such topics (as long it doesn't take too long) |
18:50 |
paramat |
so, freeze in a week, then test? agreed? |
18:51 |
Krock |
Fixer, I have also seen your suggestion for that in the issue linked above but I certainly disagree, as more tools add variety. This could be (as already mentioned) intensified by more different tool behaviour |
18:51 |
Krock |
as in: special durability, very fast speed or limited to a certain hardness |
18:52 |
paramat |
we have too much tool variety |
18:52 |
Krock |
paramat, for my part that's acceptable |
18:52 |
Krock |
too much? A few comments are mentioning that they're lacking of special effects |
18:53 |
Krock |
nerzhul, we can't release MTE earlier. The binaries are always bundled with the MTG version |
18:53 |
paramat |
for bronze to make sense it would have to be < steel and iron ore much deeper than copper and tin |
18:53 |
Shara |
As a random observation, I was looking at some other game that manages to have about 40 digging tools, without it ever feeling too much. So I started wondering why MTG, with so many fewer, feels like too many. And yes, it's mostly about abilities not being at all different. |
18:54 |
Shara |
Also the progression is very straight forward, with many being easy to skip. |
18:54 |
Shara |
What if bronze for example had longer reach? |
18:54 |
Krock |
so some kind of enchanting feature or level-up would be required then? |
18:54 |
Shara |
Suddenly the extra effort involved in crafting might not be terrible |
18:55 |
paramat |
i also don't see a need to fill the progression gap between stone and steel in a simple game. iron ore is just under the surface after all |
18:55 |
paramat |
however, on that subject, i would like to make iron ore a little deeper as it is insanely easy to find at y = 0 |
18:55 |
Shara |
Maybe if it had extra reach and more durability, it wouldn't need to be quicker than steel, could even be slightly slower. |
18:55 |
Krock |
we're declaring iron as steel and putting bronze above steel whereas it would only be better than iron. That's like the entire plot of the bronze tool story |
18:56 |
Shara |
bronze tools were easier to repair (so more durability makes sense) |
18:56 |
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18:56 |
Shara |
But weaker... (so make them slower than steel) |
18:57 |
Shara |
Then +1 to range to balance the extra difficulty. |
18:57 |
Shara |
That's the best I've got anyway |
18:57 |
Krock |
Shara, that's a good idea which in my opinion can solve this issue |
18:58 |
Shara |
This type of thing could also give more mese and diamond their own strengths |
18:58 |
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18:58 |
Shara |
speed vs. range |
18:59 |
Krock |
the range is probably not the best parameter in terms of "staying close to reality" but adds an important variety/advantage |
18:59 |
Shara |
Of course, but in gameplay one extra node of reach can be a big deal |
18:59 |
Fixer |
Krock: special abilities can be nice, if it is fantasy like |
18:59 |
Shara |
Also in survival, hand has default range of 4... and tool has 4? |
18:59 |
Krock |
it must not even be an entire node, but may also be a fraction (4.5) |
19:00 |
Krock |
^ at least I hope we're working with floats (!) |
19:00 |
Shara |
heh |
19:00 |
Shara |
I'd give it a full node extra |
19:01 |
Shara |
It's also not unrealistic that a tool would give you more reach than you have without one |
19:02 |
Shara |
So I don't think realise is an issue in adding +1 to range |
19:02 |
paramat |
personally i'd rather simplify, tools are already too complex |
19:02 |
Shara |
That change isn't complex at all |
19:04 |
Krock |
a few changed lines and done |
19:05 |
Shara |
And removes any need to change ore depths (though as a seperate thing, I agree iron doesn't need to start so high up) |
19:08 |
paramat |
sorry, i don't mean range |
19:09 |
paramat |
just general special abilities. i'm not keen on range increase as it makes little sense for one material over another |
19:10 |
Shara |
I'd argue it makes more sense than us having a tool no one could care to use :) |
19:10 |
paramat |
what i mean is, instead of adding more stuff to justify a mistake, simplify instead |
19:10 |
Shara |
It's already ridiculously simple, but okay, I'll leave it to you |
19:10 |
paramat |
well yes, but i'm suggesting removing bronze tools, not keeping them as is |
19:13 |
paramat |
what about #6951 ? apparently it doesn't remove the need to secure builtin, but still a good idea? |
19:13 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6951 -- [CSM] Don't create the script environment if CSM is disabled by red-001 |
19:15 |
Krock |
the PR itself is ok, but needs action from the author |
19:15 |
paramat |
red-001 |
19:16 |
Krock |
we also had this in the 180310 meeting... with the same situation |
19:16 |
paramat |
hmm it's close to neglect closure now |
19:16 |
paramat |
added 'adoption needed' rubenwardy interested? |
19:17 |
rubenwardy |
That pr doesn't make sense with server sending, as you can just edit built in then |
19:18 |
paramat |
related comment https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6925#issuecomment-375861184 |
19:18 |
paramat |
saying the same thing it seems |
19:19 |
paramat |
#6925 needs doing |
19:19 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6925 -- Secure builtin CSM code against modification |
19:19 |
Fixer |
not only bronze, but maybe mese tools as well |
19:20 |
paramat |
yes mese is close in ability to diamond |
19:20 |
paramat |
personally i would only have one tier above steel |
19:21 |
paramat |
maybe |
19:23 |
rubenwardy |
Remove diamond |
19:23 |
rubenwardy |
At least mese makes sense |
19:23 |
paramat |
(but i'm thinking simple game here) |
19:23 |
Fixer |
it is the question on how to phase it out gracefully |
19:23 |
paramat |
yes mese came first :) |
19:24 |
Krock |
rubenwardy, or again there - using the range or durability to make the mese pickaxe better in a few places, the diamond pick better in others |
19:24 |
paramat |
but, not sure we can do this now. MTG is largely a mess beyond repair |
19:24 |
rubenwardy |
Are yess |
19:25 |
rubenwardy |
Diamond could be stronger |
19:25 |
rubenwardy |
But mese further range, as it's special |
19:25 |
Krock |
removing the tools we have only causes more legacy code which is a PITA |
19:25 |
paramat |
i mean without legacy code |
19:26 |
Shara |
rubenwardy: that's exactly what I am thinking |
19:26 |
Fixer |
i've suggested adding special ability to bronze and mese? you can consider this too |
19:26 |
paramat |
it's a case of how much mod breakage is acceptable |
19:26 |
Krock |
the alien mese pickaxe which can attract ores (instead of humans) from a certain distance using wobbly bobbly waves :) |
19:26 |
paramat |
mese is mysterious so extra range makes sense there |
19:26 |
Krock |
I fully support that idea :) |
19:26 |
Shara |
Make bronze/mese have range and durability, and steel/diamond be faster (stronger and so break things more quickly) |
19:27 |
paramat |
lol |
19:27 |
Shara |
Steel is harder to repair than bronze... I'd imagine a smashed diamond is also harder to repair than weird wonderful mese |
19:29 |
Krock |
added the mese idea to the discussion post. I'd like to continue now with a PR before nobody's got time anymore |
19:30 |
Shara |
It has my support |
19:30 |
Krock |
#7116 feature. quite simple but I wonder whether we want to deal with the errors using the motto "it's a compat breaking release" or do a workaround again |
19:30 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7116 -- Formspecs: Add a <use_color_alpha> parameter to the box[] element by Thomas--S |
19:31 |
Krock |
it's a decorative formspec element for eyecandy |
19:32 |
Krock |
but yet we're displaying the errors in-game and on-screen in singleplayer worlds as soon they appear |
19:34 |
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19:34 |
Krock |
not displaying the box has no effect on playability but causes the said error |
19:34 |
rubenwardy |
The better solution is to detect usage of alpha |
19:34 |
paramat |
why is backwards compat a problem? now's the time for it? |
19:35 |
rubenwardy |
Like, use the current alpha if none is given |
19:35 |
rubenwardy |
Otherwise use the alpha given |
19:35 |
Krock |
paramat, the issue is that we somehow want to keep the mod compatibility and formspecs overlap |
19:36 |
Krock |
overlap as in: 0.4.17 and 0.5.0 should in about support the same formspec code |
19:37 |
Krock |
unless we want to force modders to adjust the formspecs depending on the client version |
19:38 |
Krock |
rubenwardy, I also thought about it -- would need a re-design of the ColorString reading function |
19:38 |
paramat |
aha of course |
19:38 |
rubenwardy |
Extra parameter for default alpha |
19:40 |
Krock |
brb - 10 minutes (hopefully less) |
19:41 |
rubenwardy |
I'm cooking to will be responding intermittently |
19:42 |
rubenwardy |
*so |
19:43 |
paramat |
closed #6951 until progress, doesn't seem so essential now |
19:43 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6951 -- [CSM] Don't create the script environment if CSM is disabled by red-001 |
19:43 |
* paramat |
is cooking ruben |
19:45 |
* rdococ |
deep-fries a paramat |
19:46 |
paramat |
recursive cooking |
19:46 |
paramat |
shall we close #4492 ? |
19:46 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4492 -- More user-friendly group names |
19:46 |
rdococ |
if you support tail recursion then you can resolve the recursive cooking into iterative cooking |
19:47 |
rubenwardy |
Quorn curry |
19:47 |
rubenwardy |
Did I mention, I'm an Arch Linux? |
19:48 |
rubenwardy |
I also run vegan |
19:48 |
rubenwardy |
Nah, I'm just too lazy to prepare chicken |
19:49 |
rdococ |
lol |
19:49 |
Cornelia |
Lolol |
19:49 |
rdococ |
Lolinux |
19:54 |
paramat |
another possible close (2 disapprovals) #3204 |
19:54 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3204 -- Load mod from .zip |
19:54 |
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19:56 |
paramat |
close #4447 ? not reproduced for 1.5 years |
19:56 |
Cornelia |
Loading from zip could be interesting.. just not sure it's something really needed. |
19:56 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4447 -- Encoding issues with some window managers |
20:00 |
rubenwardy |
Yeah to both |
20:02 |
paramat |
ok |
20:08 |
Krock |
rubenwardy, regarding the box[ PR, could you please explain your idea as a comment there? |
20:09 |
rubenwardy |
Done |
20:09 |
rubenwardy |
Already :p |
20:10 |
Krock |
oh I see. thanks :) |
20:14 |
paramat |
hm i wonder if there should be a time limit on feature requests. if one has no dev interest for 3+ years i'm not sure there's a point |
20:17 |
paramat |
#34 |
20:17 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/34 -- Feature request: reload config files when SIGHUPped. |
20:18 |
paramat |
after a time the requester has probably moved on |
20:19 |
paramat |
lol |
20:20 |
Krock |
paramat, we did it. congrats |
20:20 |
paramat |
wow we both closed it simultaneously |
20:20 |
Krock |
*high five* |
20:20 |
paramat |
spooky |
20:22 |
paramat |
still says that after refresh, amazing |
20:23 |
rubenwardy |
Wow |
20:24 |
Krock |
it'll need two simultaneous open requests to unlock 8) |
20:24 |
Krock |
probably not but it would be amazing |
20:25 |
Krock |
#247 should be kept open. bendeutsch is working on the server-sided movement, which makes this soon possible |
20:25 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/247 -- on_walk_over() |
20:25 |
paramat |
yes agreed, just commented |
20:26 |
paramat |
there are other ways to code it too |
20:27 |
paramat |
many old feature requests have good reason to stay open |
20:35 |
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20:40 |
paramat |
i might go through them and add 'possible close' to some |
20:41 |
paramat |
it seems perhaps 3 years is a 'long time' in MT, unfortunately 2 years is not a long time in MT dev =) |
20:51 |
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21:01 |
paramat |
will merge #7218 in 5 mins |
21:02 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7218 -- Biome API / dungeons: Add biome-defined dungeon nodes by paramat |
21:07 |
paramat |
merging |
21:10 |
paramat |
or rather, meowging |
21:12 |
paramat |
done |
21:12 |
Shara |
:D |
21:12 |
Shara |
Really happy to see that one in |
21:19 |
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