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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2018-02-21

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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13:29 paramat game#2047
13:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/2047 -- Ores: Remove overlapping regions. Make some regions deeper by paramat
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14:40 paramat #7064 #7065 are trivial will merge in 30 mins
14:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7064 -- Settingtypes.txt: Fix valleys dungeon ymax error by paramat
14:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7065 -- Find nodes in area (under air): Raise volume limit to 4,096,000 by paramat
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15:51 paramat now merging those 2
15:59 paramat merged
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18:08 paramat Krock and MTG devs game#2047 is updated and ready
18:08 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/2047 -- Ores: Remove overlapping regions. Make some regions deeper by paramat
18:11 Krock concept is fine. will test
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18:42 Krock paramat, increasing the chance for the ores to be generated in exchange for no overlaps works quite good. but it also removes a bit variety of different ore "sizes"
18:43 Krock the amount of the ores seems to be about the same as before for each depth
18:43 paramat yes and yes, calculated very carefully to not change ore amount in the lower region
18:44 paramat no other ores have overlapping regions
18:44 Shara To me it seems like one minor plus, one minor negative
18:45 paramat with the amount of ores we now have i don't think it's a loss
18:45 Shara I'm a tiny bit against it, because I do like the current variety, and it does make a difference when playing
18:45 Shara But not strongly against it
18:46 paramat it's partly for consistency, also for simplicity and performance
18:46 Shara How big a performance difference does it really make?
18:46 paramat small
18:47 Shara I'm just struggling with that as a justification because I can't imagine it being enough to matter
18:47 paramat maybe enough to allow adding a new ore sometime
18:47 Shara There's no use for the current ones
18:47 Shara not enough uses*
18:48 paramat hm well, as i often argue, small performance gains add up to the lightweight MT we have now, so small is still significant
18:48 paramat yeah i'm not suggesting adding a new one, needs a lot of justification
18:49 Shara Underground needs different stone types, decorations and so on, to stop it being a repetitive land of bordom :)
18:50 Shara And I don't see that happening soon, which is why I don't really like removing that minute bit of variation from... well, anything
18:52 paramat more underground variation will happen, probably before 0.5
18:52 Shara Well, sofar seems to be suggesting that needs an engine change
18:53 paramat oh the underground biome shape thing, don't worry about that
18:54 Shara And if we want weirdly shaped wobbley-edged underground biome blobs, we do so...
18:54 sofar it would be a mapgen variation
18:54 Shara Just need someone to figure out what approach we do want
18:54 sofar I wouldn't make it biome based, though
18:54 Shara Idealy they wouldn't function like surface biomes at all
18:54 sofar climate and structural geology bear no relationship
18:55 Shara Of course not, but it's also about what's feasible.
18:55 paramat underground biomes have the shape of biomes, biomes have y limits plus a new vertical biome blend. the shape of underground biomes depends on what we do with biome y limits
18:55 sofar underground projection of surface climate biomes is ridiculous imho
18:55 Shara I am assuming the blending on y limit can be utilised somewhat here
18:55 sofar from a geological perspective, at least
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18:56 sofar it makes sense in MC, where max depth = 64 nodes
18:56 sofar but it makes no sense in Minetest
18:56 Shara sofar: how much attention have you paid to... let's say v7 mapgen?
18:56 Shara :D
18:56 Shara I think we lost geological realism long ago
18:56 sofar not too late to fix it
18:56 sofar I don't want realism per se
18:57 sofar I'd make a lua mapgen if I wanted realism
18:57 sofar it would just be nice if the underground could use 3d noises for variation
18:57 sofar nothing complex
18:57 Shara I'd love the ability to do this the way you are thinking, but also to set... not sure how best to describe. Some specific underground biomes that would be locked to match surface ones
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18:57 Shara But that would mainly be for ideas I have for non-MTG things
18:57 sofar the wouldn't be biomes
18:58 sofar just make underground rock organized to some 3d noise and put ores in specific stone types
18:58 sofar that would already suffice
18:58 sofar it can be really simple
18:58 Shara Yes, but then you lose the ability to set actual "biomes" underground completely?
18:59 sofar or just adjust chances for each ore so they are rare in one type of base rock, and more abundant in another
18:59 Shara areas of different base rock would be my current main aim to be honest
18:59 sofar effectively you'd make geological biomes? it just wouldn't use the biome system
18:59 Shara Then link decoration to rock type
18:59 sofar that's all I'm saying
18:59 paramat 3d noise is complex, and very intensive, more than 1 is not practical
19:00 sofar well, try it first, then decide based on the performance data
19:00 sofar it could be entirely reasonable for new hardware in the future
19:00 sofar or acceptable to people who can affoard a relatively new pc
19:00 paramat i know how intensive 3d noise is
19:00 sofar dismissing something based on projected performance characteristics is always premature
19:01 sofar maybe one day we'll have opensimplex and it will be much faster
19:01 sofar we know you're terrified of breaking people's 2005 CPUs
19:01 Shara My ideal would be that we get a mix of stone types unless something specific is set for some particular depth (example: fire caverns deep beneath a volcano biome)
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19:01 paramat we have to think about low power devices and being lightweight in MTG. other games can do the intensive stuff
19:01 sofar make it a new mapgen
19:02 sofar problem solved
19:02 sofar your concern is noted. stop roadblocking it.
19:02 Shara New mapgen doesn't really solve the actual issue. :)
19:02 Shara Being more underground content for MTG... as in the game itself, not some specific mapgen
19:02 sofar enjoy your flat underground rock layers?
19:02 paramat as i said, i know how intensive 3d noise is, you can't say it's gueswork
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19:03 Shara Technically we already have flat underground layers.. just only one.
19:03 paramat MTG has to run in every mapgen, it can't be a new mapgen
19:03 Shara Surface does have different stone types
19:03 Shara Then they just stop
19:04 paramat however ..
19:06 paramat using biomes for underground stone is preferable as biomes allow definable stone types, and biomes can dictate ores and decorations
19:07 Shara In all honesty... Are players going to care more about "oh no, this is geologically inaccurate!" or about "wow, we have actual variation now!"
19:07 Shara ?
19:07 paramat however we could add a 2d noise to vary all the y limits to avoid flat tops and bases. it's something i've been thinking about
19:08 Shara I'd love to get both right, but if he just parts the channel after being so negative, without offering to help...
19:08 paramat so possibly we can use biomes but with some added feature
19:08 Shara Yes, that's why I kept on about good blending on y for so long
19:09 Shara I do wonder how many extra biome registration would be needed though if you want lot sof depth variation
19:11 paramat also, such a 2d noise biome y limit variation would be useful for surface biomes too
19:13 Shara No doubt some will disagree with me, but I very much feel underground content is one of th ebiggest failings of MTG
19:13 paramat (hm, and i'm not roadblocking anything, just having suitable concern about the performance of an idealistic noise-heavy underground)
19:13 paramat yeah
19:14 Shara I don't know how we can even keep "mine" in the name of the game given how little reason there is to do it
19:14 Shara everything worth seeing is on the surface
19:15 paramat we have a 'stratum' ore type that can create noise-varied strata as you know, i coded it. problem is it needs a 1 or 2 2D noises for every strata, and underground there could be very many
19:16 Shara Maybe first thing is to work out how many
19:16 paramat then there is the problem of the stone volumes themselves being essentially 'ores', and placing ores in ores. so using the biome system is preferable, it' s designed for placing different stone types
19:17 Shara The onlt time sudden cut offs on y will be visible really is in caves
19:17 Shara only*
19:17 Shara So IF the y blending is good enough, it might be a non-issue
19:18 paramat actually i need to test if vertical blend workd underground, i hope so
19:18 Shara It's actually one of the things I had in mind when we first talked about it :)
19:19 paramat however, horizontal borders wouldn't bother me, with everything else being crazy 3d underground horizontal lines could actually be a nice balance
19:20 Shara Hmm, not so sure there
19:20 Shara It looked terrible when CRL started splitting biomes on mapblock edges
19:21 Shara (not that they were really biomes... but you get the meaning)
19:23 paramat yes, hopefully we can somehow avoid straightness in some simple lightweight way
19:24 Shara Straight edges in general are bad :)
19:28 paramat testing now
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19:32 paramat nah doesn't work underground
19:32 Shara Ugh
19:33 Shara Any easy way to make it work underground? :)
19:33 paramat however the dithered type of blend probably wouldn't look right, a clean edge is better
19:33 paramat not sure
19:33 paramat i think i'd prefer to add a 2d noise to vary the border
19:33 Shara It could be better
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19:34 paramat so will think on what can be done for underground biomes
19:36 Shara Okay. If you want to talk through ideas or need help with any testing, let me know
19:37 paramat certainly
19:38 paramat i'll try the 2d noise thing
19:40 Shara :)
19:40 paramat anyone know where the background RGBA for main menu tabs is set?
19:41 Shara Heh, was just reading issue and wondering that myself
19:41 Shara With all the little changes I made there, you'd think I'd know
19:42 p_gimeno isn't it where it says to bug sfan5 to add more colours or something like that?
19:45 paramat ok i know why vertical blend doesn't work underground, and it's difficult and intensive to enable. however, it would be unsuitable for stone borders anyway, will think about something new for that
19:49 rubenwardy paramat, irrlicht
19:49 rubenwardy you'll need to change the skin in GUIFormspecMenu
19:49 rubenwardy unless we're using our own tabs implementation
19:53 paramat ok looking, i did look at that file but could have missed it
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