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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2018-01-20

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Time Nick Message
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07:59 red-001 nerzhul, since you're here what's your view on #6932?
07:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6932 -- Remove CSM screenshot API by red-001
08:09 nerzhul red-001, i prefer implementing a rate limit and a client setting
08:09 nerzhul if user wants to use a mod to automagically generate screens to show its life on game why not
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08:10 red-001 it's just that no-one wrote rate-limiting for it and even with rate limiting I would prefer if it required user interaction to enable
08:10 nerzhul yes,
08:10 red-001 kinda like the way browsers ask the users before letting websites use certain features
08:10 nerzhul rate limit + client setting by default to false
08:11 red-001 s/users/user
08:14 red-001 nerzhul, how hard would it be to isolate mods from each other in thier own lua_state and do we even want to do that?
08:15 nerzhul it's not difficult except for the callback functions
08:16 nerzhul it needs to be handled client side
08:16 nerzhul instead of lua side
08:17 red-001 is it only me or does travis take a lot longer to build stuff now?
08:18 red-001 updated 6067 yesterday and travis is still waiting with the xcode build
08:19 nerzhul macosx build is long to start since the begininng of the week and some builds randomly failed
08:19 nerzhul maybe it's due to the CPU patching on AWS cloud, some performance dropdown cna happen too
08:20 red-001 maybe
08:20 red-001 I would guess OS X uses more resources then thier linux setup
08:21 nerzhul yeah
08:21 red-001 oh I see looks like they can/are allowed only 180 active OS X VM's at a time
08:21 nerzhul it's not just a docker container
08:23 red-001 and they have a backlog in the thousands of builds
08:24 red-001 nerzhul, do we use the container for the linux or a full vm?
08:27 nerzhul it's always container on linux on travis if i remember
08:27 nerzhul but you cannot choose which
08:28 nerzhul on gitlab CI we use various different container
08:34 red-001 looks like you can choose for Ubuntu Trusty but not for Precise or OS X
08:35 nerzhul yes
08:37 red-001 looks like we use the full vm for all the builds
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10:46 red-001 #6072 #6067
10:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6072 -- [CSM] Add functions to create particles and particlespawners. by red-001
10:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6067 -- [CSM] Add basic HUD manipulation. by red-001
11:09 nerzhul red-001, the chat6 submodule is an error no ?
11:11 red-001 yes
11:11 red-001 which one did I add that too?
11:12 nerzhul you also added your cmake configuration files :)
11:18 red-001 fixed
11:18 red-001 added the files to gitignore
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11:51 nerzhul red-001, approved both PR
11:51 nerzhul we need a second approval and we will have those useful features
12:05 Krock red-001, hud.cpp is missing in the android makefile
12:06 * red-001 grumbles something about auto-generating files
12:11 red-001 Krock, fixed
12:47 red-001 Krock, fixed your remaining issue with #6067
12:47 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6067 -- [CSM] Add basic HUD manipulation. by red-001
12:50 Krock 200
12:53 red-001 505
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13:09 nerzhul merging #6067
13:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6067 -- [CSM] Add basic HUD manipulation. by red-001
13:09 nerzhul thanks red-001
13:10 nerzhul macosx build is stuck
13:11 red-001 there is a backlog of close to 3000 builds last I checked
13:12 red-001 so I imagine it will be like that for a while
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13:18 nerzhul Krock, #6884 is now fixed (we will see if it's okay on travis)
13:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6884 -- Game refactor: reduce game.cpp size by moving objects in the right places by nerzhul
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13:48 red-001 nerzhul, can you cancel https://travis-ci.org/minetest/minete​st/builds/331191378?utm_source=github​_status&utm_medium=notification ?
13:48 red-001 oh nvm looks like they fixed builds not being canceled on force push
13:48 red-001 about time they did imo
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15:22 paramat sfan5 sofar ShadowNinja are you ok with Shara as a new MTG dev?
15:25 nore paramat: fyi, sofar is not on this channel
15:25 red-001 who are the MTG devs anyways?
15:25 paramat yeah
15:25 red-001 I'm never quite sure of who is a core dev and who is a MTG dev
15:26 paramat it's ..
15:26 sfan5 paramat: I'm fine with that
15:26 paramat ok
15:26 sfan5 hmm maybe we should have a separate group for mtg-only devs: https://github.com/orgs/minetest/teams
15:26 paramat ^ yes
15:26 paramat i almost suggested that yesterday
15:27 paramat even if only for documentation
15:27 red-001 would be useful if you split collborators into two groups and have one for the minetest repo and the other group for the minetest_game repo
15:28 red-001 seems there is often a good bit of confusion due to this
15:28 paramat Pilz (absent), sfan, nor-e, Kroc-k, ruben-, me, so-far, shadow-ninj
15:28 red-001 and it's easily avoidiable
15:28 paramat so-far shadow-ninj are inactive
15:29 red-001 Pilz isn't around at all as far as I see
15:29 red-001 not for quite a while now
15:29 paramat in fact i think pilz is somewhat fired for absence :)
15:30 red-001 README.MD sure needs some work
15:30 red-001 it still calls itself readme.txt....
15:30 red-001 oh the readme file in MTG wasn't renamed
15:31 red-001 paramat, so 11 isn't an MTG dev?
15:32 paramat correct
15:32 Krock red-001, all devs are in the minetest group
15:34 red-001 Krock, that would seem logical but wanted to confirm
15:35 red-001 I was almost sure there was talk of a new dev a while back but I saw no-one new on that page
15:37 nerzhul merging #6884
15:37 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6884 -- Game refactor: reduce game.cpp size by moving objects in the right places by nerzhul
15:37 nerzhul red-001, i think README.md is too huge, maybe it should be splited to have only a description and links to specific sections in dedicated files
15:38 nerzhul paramat, i never see pilzadam  since 2 years on this channel
15:39 paramat but then, some devs are absent long term and we don't kick them, so i guess pilz remains a core dev but can be assumed not a MTG dev
15:40 red-001 also with all these CSM security related issues being marked as high priority and blocker then so should #5989
15:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5989 -- [CSM] Inventory changes are sent to server instead of being handled by a local callback.
15:40 red-001 it's a much larger issue then just reading nodes or sending text
15:40 nerzhul paramat, i don't think a very long time inactive coredev can be a coredev as in 2 years the project technic, politic can change many
15:41 nerzhul red-001, it's completely relalted to the whole formspec stuff :(
15:44 red-001 if hashing built-in at compile time is a blocker then that almost certainly should be too
15:44 nerzhul yes
15:44 nerzhul paramat, a 0.5.0/0.4.17 release date has been defined or not ?
15:46 red-001 as for hashing builtin just move the death formspec back to core or something if it's that important, hashing builtin is the most pointless security measure I heard of in a long time
15:48 red-001 the issue should be marked "can't-fix" and "non-trivial" judging by the precident set by #6114, but that's just my opinion
15:48 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6114 -- Detection of dirty clients
15:57 nerzhul please look at #6936 :) could be nice to have
15:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6936 -- Add minetest issue template by nerzhul
15:59 paramat so moving death formspec back will avoid having to verify builtin? if moved would we then revert part of https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/308bb69eefdfb2ff3b893c124ccf0321d99a1bfd ?
16:00 red-001 it's as simple as adding a fallback formspec or just remove that little piece of lua code and adding it to c++
16:03 red-001 there might be some other stuff you might need to change but all of it si trival compare to creating a cross platform way to get the hash for all the files in builtin at compile time and then refuse to run if they change by runtime
16:03 red-001 s/si/is
16:04 red-001 I mean at that stage you might as well just implement #6114, chances are that would be simpler to do
16:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6114 -- Detection of dirty clients
16:04 red-001 (getting the hash of a file at runtime vs at compile time)
16:12 paramat !tell nerzhul sorry, i didn't reply about release dates. nothing defined yet, we're hoping for lord fingle and others to work on android and get it reasonable before release, so maybe 2+ months?
16:12 ShadowBot paramat: O.K.
16:12 paramat hmm
16:14 red-001 has anyone sent him an email or something, he seems to have disappeared after that competition he was in ended.
16:14 paramat yes i'm in touch
16:14 paramat by PM on forum
16:14 paramat a few days ago he said 'soon'
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17:46 lisac paramat: maybe MT could have a small proprietary anti-cheat part
17:46 lisac which server needs to somehow detect in order to approve it as the official client
17:47 lisac for example, maybe it could be a function that takes in a number, then calculates and returns another number
17:47 lisac server generates a number, sends it to the client, which returns the result
17:47 lisac if they match, it's the real client
17:48 lisac if not, just kick the client.
17:48 lisac if you build your own Minetest, you can download the compiled anticheat library part
17:48 lisac and set your client to use it
17:50 CBugDCoder sounds like a good idea but hacked clients could set themselves to use it too so how would it do anything?
17:50 lisac oh
17:50 lisac lol right
17:50 lisac fml
17:51 lisac you could just build it in the official mt clients
17:51 lisac which prevents custom builds now.
17:51 lisac nah
17:51 lisac hey, why not render everything on server and just receive input from client? Make client just play a video server sends.
17:52 lisac cheating would be impossible. :P
17:52 CBugDCoder but that would be sooooooooo laggy especialy on popular servers
17:53 pgimeno not to mention the bandwidth requirements
17:53 nore <lisac> paramat: maybe MT could have a small proprietary anti-cheat part <-- this is not happening
17:53 nore and won't be
17:54 lisac nore: yes, I'm just thinking out loud
17:54 nore minetest is an open-source project, and we won't force to include proprietary code in it
17:54 lisac or maybe we could have a better server side anticheat
17:54 nore this is the correct solution
17:55 lisac what are the most used cheats currently?
17:55 lisac Probably flying and noclip. Easiest to implement
17:55 lisac Flying is already really slowed down by the anticheat: very annoying to use.
17:55 lisac same for running.
17:56 lisac Some servers damage you while you are in walls without noclip priv.
17:58 Hijiri #6688
17:58 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6688 -- Custom particle generators for particle spawners by raymoo
18:01 lisac nore: maybe check if there is a node under player in PlayerSAO::checkMovementCheat(), then if the player is falling, or climbing, or has fly priv, and that way find out if he is fly-cheating?
18:03 Shara lisac: anticheat does nothign against flying from what I know. It just interferes with fast, which is not the same thing.
18:03 lisac Shara: try flying around without fast. It's annoying. :P
18:03 lisac but yes, still possible to cheat.
18:03 Shara That's your (and my) personal preference, but when you don't have fast anyway, anying already grants a huge advantage
18:04 Shara flying*
18:04 lisac I agree. We need a server side anti-fly
18:04 lisac or anti-fly-cheat
18:07 Shara Noclip is probably the biggest issue when it comes to cheating, at least from my experience (breaking into other players homes or safe areas when PVP is enabled)
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18:07 Shara And you only need to fly for a moment, at any speed at all, to abuse that
18:07 lisac hey nerzhul
18:07 nerzhul hi lisac
18:08 lisac <red-001> has anyone sent him an email or something, he seems to have disappeared after that competition he was in ended.
18:08 lisac red-001 seems to have been looking for you, nerzhul
18:08 nerzhul paramat, 2 months sounds reasonable, i need to test android build at a time
18:08 nerzhul i'm there for a time
18:08 lisac Shara: you could make a mod that checks if player is inside nodes
18:08 Raven262 NO, he wasn't looking for nerzhul.
18:08 Raven262 Read the logs again.
18:08 lisac if he is inside nodes a lot of times in a short time, kick him
18:08 Shara Yes, but think how frequently that has to check to actually be useful
18:08 lisac Raven262: thanks I'll check
18:09 nerzhul Raven262, if he needs me he will talk to me, then no real discussion there: p
18:09 Raven262 Just saying, sorry.
18:09 Shara And there's enough legitimate reasons (falling nodes dropping on players) for that
18:10 lisac Shara: which is why you check for a lot of nodes in a short period, like 5 nodes in 10 seconds
18:10 lisac either the player is drowning in bugged sand, or he is hacking.
18:10 lisac bonus if you check if the positions of the five nodes are different
18:10 Shara Still lots of checks. Too many on a busy server
18:11 pgimeno anti-fly might be as simple as: check how many nodes under the player are air (stop at first non-air node)
18:11 Shara And it won't even detect the issue I mainly have
18:11 nerzhul paramat, Krock sfan5 rubenwardy nore , can you all look at #6936, it's an issue template to help our users to fill issues, it's basic and can be improved before merge or after
18:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6936 -- Add minetest issue template by nerzhul
18:13 lisac pgimeno_: what about ladders and jumping?
18:13 lisac and falling?
18:14 Shara And trampolines that bounce players more than normal, and gravity changes and so on. Lots of things make it not so simple
18:15 lisac Shara: what about kick/ban votes?
18:15 lisac have a mod that allows players to call a vote to kick or ban another player
18:15 lisac would work for the time being
18:15 lisac until proper anti cheat
18:15 Shara That's not really relevant to the problem, and introduces lots of issues of its own
18:16 lisac it is the most basic form of anti cheat
18:16 lisac have other players report the issue
18:16 pgimeno_ lisac: ladders are nodes you're into. Jumping is not a problem. Falling is not a problem either, just detect constant or increasing height. Trampolines are the real problem here IMO. The mod should have a function to override the anti-cheat.
18:16 paramat ok
18:17 Shara It's not a fix for the actual issue. Andit's also something I'll never implement due to all the other problems (also I think not relelvant for -dev)
18:17 lisac pgimeno_: Don't trampolines just set the players gravity to another value?
18:18 paramat #6217 is server validation of client movement and is progressing
18:18 Shara I'd love a solution for fly/noclip cheating, but a mod won't cut it
18:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6217 -- Step height: Add as a player object property by paramat
18:18 paramat agh
18:18 paramat #6219
18:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6219 -- WIP: Server side movement by bendeutsch
18:19 Shara Glad he is still working on that
18:20 nerzhul paramat, i doesn't want to hurry up for 6219 it's a very sensible thing to code server side and network latency doesn't help
18:23 pgimeno_ lisac: I don't know. If that's the case, then it would not be a problem, as the number of nodes under the played can easily take into account gravity. I assumed a trampoline was a one-time impulse, which breaks my assumptions. It can still be detected as a parabolic movement, but network latency can screw that up as nerzul notes.
18:23 lisac IIRC, Raven262's Warzone mod jumppads use physics overrides https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=15199
18:25 Raven262 There are two ways to do the trampoline effect. One is a grav override other is a node group.
18:26 Raven262 I have used the override, other way was unknown to me and it would limit me to a much weaker effect.
18:28 pgimeno_ hm, 6219 looks like reimplementing client physics server side, which is going to be slow - you could as well do all physics on the server and just send the result to the client, which is what SL does
18:28 lisac SL==Second Life?
18:29 pgimeno_ yes
18:29 lisac I found the servers I tried a bit laggy
18:29 lisac not that I played more than 20 minutes of it
18:29 rubenwardy pgimeno_, client-side prediction, server-side reconcilliation
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18:30 rubenwardy both sides should do player physics, but the server should take priority and correct and miscalculations client-side
18:39 Krock nerzhul, the issue template should also say something like "I have checked whether there are duplicate issues"
18:52 lisac and probably 'I checked if my build is clean'
18:52 nerzhul Krock, please add comment on the PR i will improve it :p
18:59 paramat sfan5 does #6072 have your approval now?
18:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6072 -- [CSM] Add functions to create particles and particlespawners. by red-001
18:59 sfan5 I haven't tested, but the code is fine
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21:31 red-001 #6940
21:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6940 -- Fix issues with earlier CSM HUD commit by red-001
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22:30 nerzhul merging #6936
22:30 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6936 -- Add minetest issue template by nerzhul
22:30 nerzhul and #6072
22:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6072 -- [CSM] Add functions to create particles and particlespawners. by red-001
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22:55 red-001 #6939
22:55 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6939 -- [CSM] on_connect callback is broken.
22:55 nerzhul red-001, #6941
22:55 nerzhul :p
22:55 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6941 -- [CSM] Remove `on_connect` callback by red-001
22:56 nerzhul sfan5, if you are okay i merge this trivial removal
22:56 nerzhul as this callback is useless since flavours as it cannot be triggered
22:59 sofar is core.localplayer then always valid?
23:00 nerzhul yes
23:00 nerzhul if i remember it's set when the CSM is inited
23:01 nerzhul before any mod loading
23:01 red-001 yep it was set just before the on_connect callback was called
23:01 red-001 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6941/f​iles#diff-34f48ad91ac6c202ac60b0348ae90e30L1700
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