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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2017-10-13

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 paramat ok closing
00:02 paramat thanks
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04:31 paramat now merging game#1881
04:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1881 -- Add binoculars mod with binoculars item to allow zoom by paramat
04:39 paramat done 8)
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11:53 rubenwardy #6527
11:53 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6527 -- Formspec replacement
12:01 sfan5 layouting with two t 🤔
12:01 rubenwardy apparently both are wrong
12:02 rubenwardy according to my spell checker
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12:05 * Megaf clicks
12:06 Megaf what am I looking at?
12:06 Megaf oh
12:07 Megaf ok
12:07 rubenwardy technical discussion on replacing formspecs
12:11 Megaf is layouting even a word?
12:12 sfan5 yes
12:12 Megaf google doesnt know it, nor my spellcheck
12:12 CalebDavis it looks like a very good improvement
12:13 Megaf I think is double t
12:14 sfan5 google suggests layouting if i enter layoutting
12:15 Megaf Qt would be nice
12:16 Megaf and Qt does not depends on X11
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12:16 Megaf its also multiplatform
12:16 ThomasMonroe but its heavy on the system
12:16 Megaf man, common
12:16 rubenwardy how themable is Qt? Can it be made to look like a game?
12:16 rubenwardy how heavy?
12:16 Megaf it would be nothing compared to Minetest
12:17 ThomasMonroe playing the QT version of 2048 runs slower than minetest on my machine
12:17 Megaf Qt is using in old phone OSes for example
12:17 CalebDavis idk but tre wasnt it under a propriatary license?
12:17 Megaf I have no idea whats 2048 is
12:17 ThomasMonroe its a simple math-based game
12:18 Megaf well,maybe the Qt in your system is fat
12:18 Megaf rubenwardy, Qt is very themable
12:18 ThomasMonroe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2048_(video_game)
12:18 Megaf rubenwardy, https://wiki.qt.io/Qt_Based_Games
12:19 sfan5 rubenwardy: the Qt included with the TeamSpeak 3 Client (win32) is 21MB excluding the web engine
12:19 sfan5 tl;dr way too heavy
12:19 ThomasMonroe ok, ok i'll admit hedgewars has run pretty well
12:20 Megaf sfan5, 20 MB is just the bitmap fonts in Minetest
12:20 Megaf remove that waste of space and problem solved
12:20 rubenwardy tgui is very light and themable with a CSS like thing
12:20 CalebDavis would we keep backsupport for formspecs for mods?
12:20 rubenwardy but a more used gui library would be better
12:20 rubenwardy CalebDavis, yes
12:20 CalebDavis ok
12:20 sfan5 Megaf: the bitmap fonts are 1.5MB total
12:21 Megaf what!?
12:21 sfan5 oh forgot the xml files, 5.5MB actually
12:21 ThomasMonroe it seems that tgui has a unique callback method
12:22 Megaf du -hs fonts/
12:22 Megaf 11Mfonts/
12:22 Megaf ok, there was some improvements
12:22 sfan5 do you know what bitmap fonts means?
12:22 sfan5 .ttf is not bitmap fonts, they are required either way
12:22 nerzhul no need for QT to replace formspec, just use XML parser and bind to irrlicht
12:23 nerzhul i have a partially working engine, only callbacks from XML parsed formspec to core is missing
12:23 sfan5 xml is pain
12:23 nerzhul it's like HTML
12:23 nerzhul :p
12:23 sfan5 html sucks too
12:23 rubenwardy irrlicht sucks
12:23 rubenwardy don't use irrlicht GUIs
12:23 rubenwardy I repeat: do NOT use Irrlicht's GUIs
12:23 nerzhul i'm not sure we can use non-irrlicht formspec
12:24 nerzhul rubenwardy, irrlicht sucks, then go code a replacement :p
12:24 rubenwardy the irrlicht devs themselves said that they expect people to use another GUI method than their inbuilt GUIs
12:24 rubenwardy the GUIs that come with Irrlicht is only for prototyping
12:24 nerzhul irrlicht devs said we should use other things than irrlicht because their are not able to release 1.9 xD
12:25 rubenwardy I also highly recommend not reinventing the wheel
12:25 nerzhul *here is my xml poc https://pastebin.com/i9gx28iV
12:25 rubenwardy needs layouts
12:25 nerzhul rubenwardy, having a UI formspec with another library needs a new dep, i'm not against it, but lightweight flexible solution should be added
12:25 rubenwardy manually positioning things is not good
12:25 nerzhul it's not manual
12:26 rubenwardy it is -  pos-x
12:26 nerzhul center + relative please just read
12:26 sfan5 positioning everything relative to center does not work
12:26 sfan5 what about scaling?
12:26 rubenwardy ^
12:26 nerzhul it's a poc
12:26 sfan5 you need proper layouting
12:26 nerzhul i didn't recode all HTML engine in MT :p
12:26 rubenwardy tgui and sfgui are very light
12:26 nerzhul tgui is ugly and sfgui too
12:27 nerzhul irrlicht UI is less ugly than those
12:27 rubenwardy they're themable
12:27 Megaf why we just dont clean the code and make it better before begin to change everything again?
12:27 rubenwardy and no, irrlicht is more ugly
12:27 nerzhul irrlicht is themable too
12:27 Megaf why dont we stop adding things and begin fixing the things we have already?
12:27 rubenwardy because formspecs can't be fixed without breakages - the co-ordinate system is fucked
12:27 Megaf maybe just rewrite the thing from scratch...
12:27 Megaf without Irrlicht
12:27 rubenwardy ...
12:27 nerzhul ugly => https://tgui.eu/
12:27 rubenwardy that's what I'm suggesting
12:27 nerzhul https://tgui.eu/resources/Screenshots/White.jpg
12:28 rubenwardy tgui's default themes are ugly
12:28 rubenwardy sfml's aren't so much
12:28 nerzhul using SFML may be a nice solution as SFML may replace some irrlicht parts
12:28 nerzhul not only GUI
12:28 rubenwardy oops,   sgui
12:28 nerzhul TGUI requires SFML
12:29 rubenwardy they can be adapted to not require them
12:29 Megaf google "qt interface for games" in images
12:29 Megaf really nice stuff
12:30 ThomasMonroe it may be nice, but is it practical for Minetest
12:30 sfan5 Megaf: chromium also looks real nice
12:30 Megaf but I have no idea if we could ever interface Qt and formspec
12:30 nerzhul rubenwardy, how do you include a TGUI windows in irrlicht windows ?
12:30 nerzhul it's the main problem we got
12:30 nerzhul CEF3 can be a nice replacement too
12:30 nerzhul but it's not easy :p
12:30 rubenwardy you'd need to rewrite the draw functions and the render context passing
12:30 rubenwardy so we'd be maintaining our own window library
12:30 nerzhul okay
12:31 rubenwardy it would need more investigation
12:31 nerzhul then we just need a good comparison, and a Poc on each to ensure it's possible
12:31 nerzhul can you provide that ?
12:31 Megaf lets just built in OpenBox...
12:31 rubenwardy sounds good
12:31 Megaf or WMaker
12:31 rubenwardy I suggest leaving this to after 0.5, it's not required for it
12:31 nerzhul rubenwardy, also, does the MT teams wants that for 0.5 ?
12:31 nerzhul oh you answer :p
12:31 nerzhul okay , then 2 years after 0.5, 0.6 with new forms :)
12:31 rubenwardy I would put this as medium priority, as it is imo the biggest problem apart from stability
12:32 rubenwardy doesn't need to break compatibility
12:32 twoelk does TGUI work well on android?
12:32 ThomasMonroe https://tgui.eu/tutorials/v0.7/android/
12:33 rubenwardy not sure, that's another issue that needs testing
12:33 ThomasMonroe its expiremental atm
12:33 nerzhul rubenwardy, i think the formspec implementation has many limitations and a new API desgin is good
12:33 rubenwardy we should deprecate formspecs, but not remove as 80% of mods use them
12:33 rubenwardy well, exagerration
12:33 sfan5 <ThomasMonroe> https://tgui.eu/tutorials/v0.7/android/
12:33 sfan5 this can't work
12:33 nerzhul rubenwardy, for example, make server send many formspecs at login to only add opening orders for many of them to drop the lua computing server side in many unneeded parts
12:34 sfan5 we can't just spawn new Activities on android just because there is a gui window
12:34 rubenwardy new activities would be a bad approach
12:34 ThomasMonroe true
12:34 sfan5 proper integration would pretty much need piping certain irrlicht events to whatever gui toolkit we use
12:35 ThomasMonroe would that be efficient though?
12:35 ThomasMonroe as in overall
12:35 sfan5 it's the only option we have
12:35 ThomasMonroe true
12:37 ThomasMonroe what about this: http://www.clutter-project.org/
12:38 twoelk as we do have problems with the current GUI on Android maybe we should look what runs best there and then see if it is good enough for the other platforms
12:39 nerzhul yeah, like our current keyboard management which is crazy
12:39 nerzhul ThomasMonroe, clutter is gnome centric
12:39 rubenwardy input is on my pet peeve list, but lesser priority
12:40 ThomasMonroe nerzhul, sorry, i overlooked that
12:40 nerzhul rubenwardy, you mean on android ?
12:40 rubenwardy no, generally
12:40 nerzhul i talk about keyboard which open an android shit where you click to type and send
12:40 rubenwardy for example, I'd love to use an xbox controller
12:40 nerzhul can be nice
12:40 rubenwardy but it doesn't work very well with formspecs
12:41 nerzhul we need a console like keyboard formspec haha
12:41 ThomasMonroe i was looking at this thread in stack exchange: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/409539​0/lightweight-cross-platform-c-gui-opengl
12:42 ThomasMonroe but its probably more leaning to app developement
12:44 twoelk the page says Qt doesn't work on iOS, so that may exclude that
12:45 ThomasMonroe i also found this, http://rexxdw.sourceforge.net/
12:45 ThomasMonroe it works natively on OS/2
12:45 ThomasMonroe but its not as themeable as something like tgui
12:49 nerzhul twoelk, we can excluse iOS we tend to deploy on windows phone #troll
12:49 twoelk but, but my nephews have iphones :-(
12:57 ThomasMonroe nuklear looks promising, it even has lua bindings
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13:00 twoelk ThomasMonroe: you could make a forum post that lists a handfull of candidates with links and comparing some issues
13:01 ThomasMonroe good idea
13:03 ThomasMonroe twoelk, under feature discussion?
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13:23 sfan5 rubenwardy: could you take a look at the comment i posted on the issue and tell me if i'm missing anything major?
13:24 ThomasMonroe sfan5 nuklear has lua bindings that should be simple to implement
13:24 sfan5 >spend 15 minutes typing long post
13:24 sfan5 "all of that sounds good to me."
13:24 sfan5 amusing, somehow
13:24 ThomasMonroe XD
13:24 sfan5 ThomasMonroe: that would not be toolkit-independent which i consider desirable
13:24 sfan5 also what ruben answered about using existing lua bindings
13:25 ThomasMonroe what exactly is SSM, pardon my ignorance
13:26 ThomasMonroe nvmd rubenwardy answered
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13:31 ThomasMonroe its possible to implement nuklear, it just might be awhile b4 its good enough for a release, but once it is implememnted, then it will look great, that is if it is implemented
13:33 Krock button:onPress(function() end)  sounds good too
13:36 Krock or just take the concept from smartfs :3
13:36 ThomasMonroe <sfan5> ThomasMonroe: that would not be toolkit-independent which i consider desirable
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13:36 ThomasMonroe what do you mean toolkit-independent?
13:50 sfan5 it's not that important but if we ever need to change which toolkit we use for the GUI a redesign of that exact lua api would be required too
13:51 ThomasMonroe true
13:51 ThomasMonroe but only if an event happened that we would need to change it
13:52 rubenwardy sfan5: sorry, didn't see you're message
13:52 rubenwardy I've edited my reply since posting
13:52 rubenwardy But I'm at work so can't do a full reply
13:52 sfan5 sure, it's fine
13:52 rubenwardy *your irc message
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18:01 nerzhul zstd was validated as better and faster than gzip for ZFS filesystem and now coming to openzfs
18:01 nerzhul brotli was not choosen and LZ4 was already here but comprss less
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19:23 paramat nerzhul are you able to +1 #6483 now? or anyone else?
19:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6483 -- Retrieve extra speed-directed, narrow view cone to load blocks the player will encounter soon. by lhofhansl
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19:23 paramat i'm going to retest it
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19:59 lhofhansl paramat: Thanks!
20:01 paramat oi celeron55 lhof is here
20:06 celeron55 uh oh
20:07 celeron55 there was this core dev thing, i don't recall if i have anything to do other than add lhofhansl to the team on github...
20:08 celeron55 at least i hope i didn't do it yet, because i don't remember doing it 8)
20:09 celeron55 lhofhansl: do you think there's something i need to do other than that?
20:10 Krock passing the contribution rules and such as reminder?
20:10 celeron55 i linked them to lhofhansl a looong time ago, it's fine
20:10 paramat we can advise on 'how to merge'
20:10 rubenwardy I don't believe he's active on the forums, so no need to update anything there. So just github teams
20:11 paramat is there still a way of merging on github that should be avoided: the one that creates an extra commit entry in hisotry?
20:12 paramat i made that mistake when i was added :]
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20:13 red-001 I think github now has the option to merge without a merge commit
20:13 celeron55 i think i disabled the wrong way of merging at some point
20:13 rubenwardy no, paramat
20:13 celeron55 not sure
20:13 rubenwardy it's disabled
20:13 paramat ok
20:13 rubenwardy you can still do it using the git cli though
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20:13 paramat yeah i always merge using terminal git
20:14 rubenwardy do it meaning make a merge commit
20:14 paramat oh
20:14 rubenwardy I usually merge using the web interface, unless the commit is by me or I have more than one to merge
20:14 Krock red-001, it's been like this for at least a year. Squash merge and rebase merge
20:14 lhofhansl celeron55: I don't know :)  I think there're some links to some guidelines or something.
20:14 rubenwardy if the commit is by me then it adds "commited by github" or something, which I don't like
20:15 celeron55 lhofhansl kind of brings me to one question: for core devs that don't hang around on IRC and neither the forum, should we set like a weekly time when everyone should briefly visit this channel in case there's something to talk about? or how would we go about this
20:15 rubenwardy we had saturday meetings
20:15 paramat have/had
20:15 rubenwardy they've fizzled out though recently
20:15 rubenwardy I suggest starting them up again
20:15 Krock wasn't there one last week?
20:16 ThomasMonroe celeron55, did you happen to see the convo earlier about the lua formspecs?
20:16 paramat saturday evening 6pm european central time
20:16 paramat i think
20:16 celeron55 well the meetings were kind of heavy, i'm not suggesting that format
20:16 red-001 can someone review #6067 or #6087
20:16 celeron55 the same time can be used though
20:16 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6067 -- [CSM] Add basic HUD manipulation. by red-001
20:16 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6087 -- [CSM] Don't load the IO library. by red-001
20:16 paramat yeah
20:16 red-001 *?
20:17 lhofhansl 6pm GMT is 11am PST, I'm usually out at that time.
20:17 paramat or asleep? :]
20:17 lhofhansl :)
20:18 paramat i'm usually out too, but in bed
20:18 lhofhansl Hanging out on the forum is easy enough. Joining IRC more often is also easy.
20:18 celeron55 ThomasMonroe: missed it, but can look it up; what about it?
20:18 ThomasMonroe just some interesting stuff to think about, but it would probably wait until 0.6.0
20:19 ThomasMonroe i created a forum post too
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20:19 celeron55 lhofhansl: i guess just make sure there's some way to contact you publicly other than github issues or mass email
20:19 red-001 I think some recent formspec change broke the pause/escape menu
20:19 lhofhansl Understood!
20:19 ThomasMonroe red-001: the changes were in respect to replacing the current system
20:19 paramat some of us are up during EU nighttimie, often me
20:20 red-001 the two text boxes are broken
20:20 paramat *nighttime
20:20 ThomasMonroe paramat, im asleep then, 12:00am for me XD
20:20 Flairieve Is there anyway to use minetest.after(5) in a IF statement like this? function hi() print("Before 5 seconds") minetest.after(5) print("After 5 seconds") end
20:21 lhofhansl Got the invite. Thanks!
20:21 red-001 what do you mean in an if statement?
20:22 Krock Flairieve, yes sure
20:22 lhofhansl Are there core-dev guidelines to read? When to use which labels? How many approvals needed? Anything else...?
20:22 Flairieve Well I mean like were it waits 5 seconds before printing the next message
20:22 red-001 sure that would work
20:22 Krock Flairieve, that's possible. you can call minetest.after like any other function
20:22 paramat Flairieve modding discussion goes to the other MT channels
20:22 Krock and it'll execute the given function after the time passed
20:23 Flairieve Oh wait this isn't modding discussion?
20:23 Krock no, core development aka C++ stuff
20:23 red-001 no
20:23 red-001 what Krock said
20:23 Flairieve oh whoops
20:24 Krock lhofhansl, related wiki: http://dev.minetest.net/Git_Guidelines
20:25 lhofhansl Thanks. I'll read through all of this before I do anything :)
20:25 Krock there's not much you can do wrong with labels. just ensure they fit the PR/issue contents
20:26 paramat lhofhansl i made this gist to show how to merge using terminal (the most flexible way) https://gist.github.com/paramat/​fdb80b6f03923d444af261a789894215
20:27 red-001 shouldn't a branch be created for 0.4.17?
20:27 Krock red-001, will happen during feature freeze.. I think
20:27 paramat (linux terminal that is)
20:27 red-001 Krock, wouldn't it be better to start backporting things eariler through
20:27 lhofhansl I too prefer the command line. No black github magic in the way.
20:28 Krock red-001, yes sure, earlier is better but there's no time set yet
20:30 celeron55 lhofhansl: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/b​lob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#maintaining
20:30 celeron55 that's kind of the jumping point currently for core deving
20:32 paramat lhofhansl a core dev can self-approve their own PR, it counts towards the 2 needed, but isn't labelled. so for your PR we now assume it has 2 approvals even though it is labelled 'one approval'
20:32 celeron55 ThomasMonroe: if you made a forum topic, can you link it?
20:33 Krock red-001, oh I see. You're right with the pause menu. apparently another victim that (ab)used the textarea
20:33 red-001 so how do you fix it?
20:34 red-001 is there a simple fix or do you have to replace the element used
20:34 celeron55 ThomasMonroe: oh, found it
20:35 celeron55 this is the toolkit topic https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=5&amp;t=18623
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20:43 Krock red-001, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6510/f​iles#diff-65f34680878a6bd86f3a59ebc0c06c6dL1117 this is the problem
20:44 Krock looks like we need a fallback to flabel if fdefault is empty
20:51 Krock red-001, working on a patch
20:53 red-001 anyone want to comment on the idea behind #6528? The implemenation as you can see isn't finished yet.
20:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6528 -- [WIP] Make setting files per-world. by red-001
21:03 lhofhansl which of the MT forums should I hang out in? Is there one for devs?
21:04 red-001 there is more then one forum?
21:05 red-001 lhofhansl, the site the project controls is minetest.net
21:05 red-001 other people own the other minetest domains
21:06 lhofhansl Ok... I thought there might have been one specifically for devs. All good then.
21:07 Krock Fix for the missing pause menu text, caused by #6510: https://pastebin.com/raw/taPmanvm
21:07 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6510 -- Textarea with vertical scrollbar (Rebased from adelcoding1 #5355) by adrido
21:08 Krock red-001, mind giving it a test to ensure it works as expected? ^
21:09 red-001 sure
21:09 Krock pause menu seems to be fixed, same as the texture pack descriptions
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21:14 lhofhansl Signed up for the forum. Username: Lars
21:14 Fixer welcome
21:15 lhofhansl thanks!
21:16 lhofhansl comments on #6529?
21:16 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6529 -- Discuss: Make zoom a real zoom?
21:18 red-001 lhofhansl, doesn't seem like a major change
21:18 lhofhansl nope. not at all.
21:19 red-001 I say go ahead as long as you can avoid the void of unloaded blocks
21:27 Krock Pushing https://pastebin.com/raw/taPmanvm with fixed too-long-line in 5 minutes
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21:49 paramat could someone do what is needed to group lhofhansl together with the other code devs in an IRC client userlist?
21:49 Krock that's called (auto) voice
22:05 paramat ok thanks, wasn't sure what it meant
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22:33 paramat ~tell lhofhansl note you are not a core dev for MTGame (yet)
22:33 ShadowBot paramat: O.K.
22:34 red-001 paramat, is there a list of mt-game core devs anywhere?
22:37 lhofhansl joined #minetest-dev
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22:40 paramat there's an out of date one in the wiki
22:42 lhofhansl joined #minetest-dev
22:42 paramat maybe there should be an extra 'team' group at github just to document it
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22:58 lhofhansl I have a verified nick now :)
23:05 lhofhansl paramat: Lemme know when you got a chance to test #6483 again. Can be my first push.
23:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6483 -- Retrieve extra speed-directed, narrow view cone to load blocks the player will encounter soon. by lhofhansl
23:16 paramat ah so you're registered with nickserv now?
23:17 paramat i will, i'll test within 2 hours, very busy
23:17 red-001 lhofhansl, if you want a cloak ask on #freenode
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23:26 lhofhansl "cloak ask"? I'm a very occasional IRC user.
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23:28 red-001 just replaces your ip/hostname with "unaffiliated/lhofhansl"
23:29 red-001 so when you join it says * lhofhansl (~lars@unaffiliated/lhofhansl) has joined
23:31 lhofhansl ah. that's nice. Then again, my name gives me away anyway.
23:32 red-001 well it doesn't stop anyone from getting it if they really want to, but it stops the annoying sorts
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