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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2017-05-10

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Time Nick Message
00:17 paramat "Zeno` > because I am sick to death of seeing notifications about in when I join github when I can't even comment on them" anyone can comment on MTG stuff, you have in the past, and other core dev's opinions carry weight. you can silence notifications from any MTG thread
00:17 paramat "twoelk, I have commit privs to MTG but I am not "allowed" to comment or make commits to it" wut? not true
00:18 paramat sorry, you can make commits 'for it'
00:20 paramat "Zeno` > no. I can do anything I like with the MTG repo. The only reason I don't is out of respect" the reason you don't should be the rules
00:22 paramat i've noticed you often threaten to break the rules and do whatever you want, and sometimes you have done so on impulse
00:23 paramat "Zeno` > Ok, well core devs should be able to contribute to it and discuss it" you can
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00:44 paramat MTG organisation is not well documented, i'll add a post to the news subforum, then maybe someone can add something to th ewiki
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07:08 celeron55 this fuzz about paramat in my opinion is absurd
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07:13 celeron55 like, i mean, i understood hmmmm was a bit oppressive
07:14 celeron55 but if you're reacting the same to someone today, that doesn't make sense
07:15 celeron55 people can and _should_ say their opinions; it's good practice; if paramat happens to be the only one caring to state theirs, it's not paramat's problem
07:16 celeron55 altough you can always ask for nicer language
07:18 celeron55 people getting mad at some others using harsh language is a recurring theme in open projects like this, i guess it's mostly that again
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07:38 kilbith > this fuzz about paramat in my opinion is absurd
07:38 kilbith that's likely because...
07:39 kilbith 1. you don't seem to read github comments often to understand our concerns
07:39 kilbith 2. he's good at knelling and suck some dicks around (including yours) to get your favors
07:39 kilbith and quoting your roadmap like a fanatic quoting the holy bible
07:40 kilbith *kneeling
07:43 nerzhul hello, i will merge #5702 in ~2 hours
07:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5702 -- Private nodemeta by sfan5
07:43 nerzhul (if no more objections)
07:43 celeron55 i can't say i have a problem with someone referring to my roadmap; that's better than most of the time in the past years
07:43 nerzhul thanks sfan5 for this useful feature
07:46 celeron55 kilbith: what do you think i should do, then?
07:46 kilbith that's why he's core-dev, not because he's competent, but mostly because ht personally gratifies you
07:46 kilbith *he
07:48 celeron55 not in the extent you seem to think for sure, if at all
07:49 kilbith why would anyone be core-dev if he don't know about the langage specs anyway
07:50 celeron55 but yes, i pick the core team both on the basis of personality and competence; if you thought it's just competence then you were wrong
07:50 kilbith that said, I'm at work currently and have other shit to do
07:50 celeron55 i could pick someone with zero programming knowledge
07:50 kilbith you could but that will reflect badly on your reputation
07:51 celeron55 paramat is a core dev mostly due to his interest in developing map generation
07:52 celeron55 as quite a gap was left in that area after hmmmm became inactive
07:52 kilbith he should just stick on that and abstain voting or blocking the other stuff
07:53 kilbith that's all I'm asking personally
07:55 kilbith but he won't because he genuinely believes to hold the "spirit of minetest"
07:59 celeron55 i suppose paramat could consider that; i'm not making any rulings now though
07:59 celeron55 let's wait what paramat has to say after these comments
08:00 kilbith knowing him pretty well, he's unlikely to accept
08:00 kilbith but for that he'd earn my respect at least
08:00 celeron55 maybe he intends on commenting non-mapgen issues as a contributor and not as a core-dev
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08:54 Zeno` paramat, I've said this in the past: I have no personal grudge against you. I donated money to you to keep developing. If I didn't want you part of the team would I have done that?
08:55 Zeno` but I have a complex "character" and feel strongly about certain things and often voice them. I dunno why I chose to use you as an example last night, I just did. But, again, it's not personal (really)
08:56 Zeno` That said. I do disagree with some (or even a lot) of your decisions
08:56 Zeno` (I'm not saying anything about you as a person; I'm commenting on the decisions)
09:45 nerzhul paramat is quite good for mapgen, but for core game design he is not very good, many high level features are required to permit end user having a game experience in our games, core cannot be just an insipid engine, it's not Unity Engine
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11:34 lisac Fixer, in #5728, bug seems to be on line 3906 in game.cpp
11:34 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5728 -- Block instadig after tool switch
11:34 lisac this(runData.dig_instantly = 0;) seems to fix it. But it's not a solution, obviously.
11:59 kilbith working on the post-processing: https://lut.im/4cKTamWYSw/UrFGlsF1HCle9EnE.png
11:59 kilbith ^ VanessaE
12:01 kilbith https://lut.im/9FdnkcTK9t/Qe1FCvPAYzW9IxG8.png
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12:26 red-001 I belive the term is absurd levels of bloom
12:26 kilbith it's WIP
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12:28 red-001 apart from it being a bit too strong it looks pretty good
12:28 Fixer i hate hiph...bloom
12:30 red-001 is it also using a depth of field effect?
12:30 kilbith no, not yet
12:30 kilbith it's the fog being weird
12:32 kilbith https://lut.im/UyadwUGUpr/E16YNcRkFPvl6pNI.png
12:32 nerzhul kilbith, wow don't see anything :p
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13:29 nerzhul sorry guys i was late
13:29 nerzhul merging #5702 now
13:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5702 -- Private nodemeta by sfan5
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14:02 burli Hi
14:02 burli I found a bug, I think
14:03 burli https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5741
14:05 DS-minetest #5741
14:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5741 -- Snow trap bug
14:07 burli You can use this bug to build traps on PvP Maps xD
14:07 burli Chase another player into the trap and you can kill him xD
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14:09 DS-minetest heh
14:09 DS-minetest use sneak to get out
14:10 iZacZip_m Hi :)
14:10 iZacZip_m -nevermind.
14:11 burli DS-minetest, sneak doesn't work
14:11 burli at least not for me
14:11 DS-minetest right
14:12 burli You have to dig the snow or a node above to get out
14:12 DS-minetest it's a feature
14:12 burli If someone makes a node you can't dig it's evil xD
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14:13 nerzhul burli, you mean cheese the trap and kill him like a mouse ?
14:14 burli It doesn't work with normal slabs, but maybe with smaller slabs from the circular saw from moreblocks or similar
14:14 burli nerzhul, just like that xD
14:15 DS-minetest well, the node above can be anything, so why not lava?
14:15 DS-minetest :3
14:15 burli If you build a trap with stone and someone has no picaxe he is in trouble
14:16 burli bbl
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17:43 red-001 #5742
17:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5742 -- Fix the main menu starting a server when given an empty string as server address. by red-001
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18:16 lisac_ https://lut.im/9FdnkcTK9t/Qe1FCvPAYzW9IxG8.png
18:16 lisac_ lol wrong link
18:16 lisac_ sorry :(
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18:20 Krock somewhat oversaturated
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20:01 Pingus #5743
20:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5743 -- Fixed #5728 by lisacvuk
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20:08 Pingus nerzhul, Can you take a look at #5743?
20:08 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5743 -- Fixed #5728 by lisacvuk
20:09 nerzhul seems too simple and you don't respect code style
20:12 Pingus It works on my machine
20:13 Pingus And it looks okay in my editor. Maybe something is wrong with the editor?
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20:22 Pingus Hi paramat
20:23 Pingus can you look at #5743
20:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5743 -- Fixed #5728 by lisacvuk
20:23 Pingus I was told the style is bad, and it seems too simple
20:24 paramat maybe, although i may not be the best person to review as others understand what's going on here more
20:25 nerzhul lisac, the current changes on this behaviour was not simple and should be studied carefully :s
20:25 nerzhul with this fix can you instandig torchs ?
20:25 lisac Yes.
20:25 lisac I tested it
20:26 lisac runData.digging is still set to true after changing tools.
20:26 lisac that was the problem.
20:26 lisac so that loop is no longer executed
20:27 lisac and if params.time was 0 at the time you started hitting the target node, the dig_instantly will still be set to 1
20:34 paramat there's no reason for me to abstain from commenting on or approving / disapproving PRs outside of mapgen, most devs do not understand mapgen but they can of course comment and approve / disapprove on mapgen
20:34 paramat i cannot block anything, just add a -1, several of those are needed to have effect
20:35 paramat i only +1 if i understand and have reviewed the code, and approve the concept, very often i will say 'i don't understand this code enough to +1'
20:36 kilbith and this is lie because I know your strategy
20:37 kilbith first you make a fuss on the PR and then you declare it unmergeable because of its "controversial" disguise
20:37 paramat i feel that disapproving on concept alone is ok
20:38 kilbith no, it's not; what legitimity you have for it outside of mapgen?
20:39 kilbith and stop pretending to be a victim, it's just inversing roles
20:40 paramat anyone can comment on anything and i do not pretend to understand code when i do not
20:40 kilbith I'll fight you to death on behalf of all those who don't dare saying anything about you
20:40 kilbith and trust me they're numerous
20:40 kilbith fucking womanless looser
20:42 paramat i probably have the lowest *general* C++ ability of any core dev, but i can code mapgen stuff well
20:42 twoelk had a bad day kilbith? out on a bashing other people spree again?
20:43 nerzhul quiet kilbith , paramat does not do perfect work every time, and some PR methods are discutable but don't need to be so angry :)
20:43 * paramat is here to SUCK D**K! =D
20:43 lisac 'angry', kilbith seems to be trying to start a civil uprising here
20:43 Shara It's kind of tiresome
20:44 nerzhul but yes paramat you really should stop -1 a PR and after discussion and args of others say +1, just look what everybody want, not only what you want
20:44 nerzhul lisac, no
20:45 paramat when i added mgv7 floatlands, hmmmm of all people said the commit was 'perfect', i could not believe it :]
20:46 nerzhul personnaly i don't have problems with your mapgens, i just say, ensure you think on users when a feature or feature PR is sent
20:46 paramat nerzhul you are saying i should not have an opinion? dev's opinions are not decided by what others want
20:47 nerzhul we are not a microkernel voxel engine, we are a voxel engine with game capabilities :)
20:47 nerzhul i don't said you should not have opinion, but before saying -1 this feature is useless, think about end users
20:48 * lisac just almost-crashed his PC while trying to convert an MP4 video of his commit's results to a GIF image.
20:48 celeron55 i have seen paramat do this -1 -> comments -> +1 thing quite many times
20:48 lisac My ram and swap got full :(
20:48 celeron55 also, if kilbith bothers someone too much, PM me and i'll kick him out
20:49 celeron55 personally i enjoy a bit of a dickery from time to time but it's fine to me if someone doesn't
20:49 kilbith well, you'd shoot yourself in the foot if you do that
20:50 twoelk I would rather his foul language could be filtered out so that important things he might have said could be easier noticed
20:50 paramat nerz you just disagree with some of my opinions
20:51 celeron55 kilbith: use nicer language then and don't do things like physical threats; it's not productive
20:51 kilbith celeron55: meanwhile you never considered kicking hmmmm, wonder why...
20:51 nerzhul paramat, yes, it's what i said
20:51 nerzhul think about minetest for game capabilities, not just another random C++ project :)
20:52 nerzhul Xonotics, 0ad are known not because they are in C++, but they are game, not only game engines :)
20:53 nerzhul minetest with a good game with engine correlation (high level API) can be good, and modders can do better games if we have more complex C++ API to offer (i don't said re-add builtin to core, but for expensive parts, high level API is required)
20:54 paramat nerz yeah i do think about end users, look at all the work i did on sn**k, i cared despite not caring personally about it, worked for a week on it and added an option for old move code (against dev resistence) :]
20:54 nerzhul yeah, but you can think more than just an existing feature :), imagine a spell API, a proper mob API in core etc
20:54 * lisac hates to interrupt, but here is a video of his commit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=​e0x5sPoUe0I&feature=youtu.be
20:55 nerzhul for sneak i prefer letting more knowledged users to do things about it, and you and sfan5 works great on it (if i missed somes sorry)
20:55 nerzhul it's a nice historic bug fix :)
20:56 sfan5 why is there paramat drama all the time
20:57 paramat nerz you only say this because i disagree with some super-fancy features, considering the dev shortage, the high number of suggestions, the inherent simplicity of MT and the roadmap we have to say 'no' quite a bit. people notice me because i tend to comment a lot, because i am active
20:57 twoelk as no single dev seems an expert on all aspects of the project I wodrama keeps the channel alive - sadly
20:57 twoelk argh - I hate this memory feature it hacks my text
20:59 nerzhul sfan5, it seems paramat drama is the new TV show :p
20:59 paramat nerz i did indeed, happily, let sfan5 and krock do the more complex stuff on sn**k, if i don't understand something i will not work on it (this happrns very often)
20:59 nerzhul i don't said you propose PR on things you don't uderstand (if it's code style, naming why not)
20:59 paramat *happens
21:00 nerzhul the only problem is you said -1, comments, aaarrgh , and then, okay neutral/+1 in fact
21:00 nerzhul before -1, just place yourself on the end user place :)
21:00 nerzhul (if it's an end user thing, not a core engine hidden thing)
21:00 sfan5 why is it a problem if people change their opinion
21:00 paramat actually, i hate attention, i'm a quiet shy loner IRL :]
21:00 twoelk I thought the sneak issues where quite interesting as they made many people think more about what kind of game mt might be
21:00 kilbith if you slip a single fancy graphical feature in the PR list, you can be sure paramat will pop-up and block this
21:01 kilbith every fucking time
21:01 nerzhul sfan5, it's a communication problem, more than a real problem, first you shot contribution, and after you accept it, it's not the best mean to communicate :p
21:02 paramat nerz you're being unreasonable, i should see into the future for my future opinion and have that opinion from the beginning? i also go from +1 to -1
21:03 nerzhul oh maybe, i just don't see it very often, i just take the most seen examples :)
21:05 nerzhul but we have a more important problem guys
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21:05 nerzhul 0.4.16 feature freeze is in 2 weeks and we have => https://github.com/minetest/minetest/milestone/8
21:05 nerzhul all those PR should be finished/merged or delayed, or closed
21:06 nerzhul (issues too)
21:06 lisac nerzhul, I fixed the code style on my pull
21:07 lisac someone should still check if it does something unexpected
21:07 paramat well, the number of issues/PRs added to the milestone is 'optimistic' and are just 'what would be nice to have'
21:07 * twoelk resumes his lurking lookout to watch the professionals do their work
21:08 nerzhul lisac, nice, now we should ensure it covers the bug, but doesn't add regressions
21:08 nerzhul paramat, i think so, but next meeting and last meeting before feature freeze should be focused on that, instead of old PR, it's more important
21:08 lisac how do we do that? :D
21:09 nerzhul lisac, it's not so simple, we need to know what are the usecase of the called function
21:09 paramat we just have to prioritise
21:09 paramat #2612 isn't critical
21:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2612 -- Over-one-meter collision box glitches
21:10 nerzhul no, i think we can delay it
21:10 nerzhul it's a long time bug, and we have some current regressions to fix
21:10 nerzhul especially lisac mentioned regression
21:13 paramat ah #5494 i should test, quite important
21:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5494 -- Fix 'alpha' property for liquid nodes by juhdanad
21:14 nerzhul yes, it has some conflicts
21:14 VanessaE paramat: no no NO
21:14 VanessaE fix bugs and if it takes too much time, extend the damn freeze
21:15 nerzhul merging #5742 in ~10 mins
21:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5742 -- Fix the main menu starting a server when given an empty string as server address. by red-001
21:15 nerzhul VanessaE, only for real blockers, it's not a blocker it's critical
21:15 nerzhul or major maybe
21:15 nerzhul blocker means minetest doesn't work or a major game feature has been broken
21:16 nerzhul look at sneak bugs, after 4 years it was fixed :p
21:16 nerzhul (i hope your bug iwll be fixed before that)
21:16 VanessaE it was "high priority" for G*d sakes
21:16 VanessaE what the fuck good does it do if you're gonna decide "oh well, this ain't that bad"
21:16 paramat #5492 seems not high priority CSM is WIP
21:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5492 -- [CSM] Add local particles and particlespawners. by red-001
21:17 VanessaE you may as well remove ALL labels except for "cantfix" and "wontfix"
21:17 paramat we're prioritising, 11 days to go
21:17 VanessaE "11 days to go" and there's your problem
21:17 VanessaE extend the fucking freeze
21:17 VanessaE this happens with every G*d damned release of Minetest
21:17 nerzhul yeah, i know, at work my developpers (i don't develop at work) have many high prio tickets on jira too, but only blockers are really fixed before release, high priority are noly fixed when some time can be spent on it before a release, if no blocker
21:18 nerzhul extending the freeze without being in it has no sense
21:18 VanessaE you know perfectly well what I mean, nerzhul
21:18 nerzhul VanessaE, i propose to add a new label: makeVanessaEcomplainonIRCandpray
21:18 paramat #5367 has a query by rubenwardy but perhaps should be merged, 2 have tested
21:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5367 -- Builtin: Fix subgame mod selection by SmallJoker
21:18 nerzhul :p
21:20 nerzhul paramat, can you test it ?
21:20 red-002 could someone take another look at #5719?
21:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5719 -- Rework escape/pause menu by red-001
21:20 VanessaE "prioritize", red-002
21:20 VanessaE :P
21:22 paramat erm maybe
21:22 red-002 also why is #4642 tagged as controversial? I only see a vague comment that sofar doesn't like that type of api
21:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4642 -- Allow the join/leave message to be overridden by mods. by red-001
21:23 paramat nah 2 testing is enough, it will get more testing soon enough
21:23 nerzhul paramat, 5719 can be reviewed by you easily (on the game concept) code has been reviewed by 3 guys
21:23 nerzhul it just needs a second approval (sfan5 also maybe)
21:27 paramat 5719 is not a priority, it's only a menu rework
21:28 nerzhul maybe but PR is finished
21:28 nerzhul and for end user it's useful, better than having wtf compilation options :p
21:29 nerzhul cant remember why i set controversial on 4642
21:29 nerzhul i removed it as it's not very relevant
21:48 paramat i removed #5268 from milestone, too risky just before release
21:48 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5268 -- Send only changed node metadata to clients instead of whole mapblock by SmallJoker
21:50 paramat removed #4925, very WIP and under consideraion
21:50 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4925 -- Fix block drawing glitch at block boundaries by Rogier-5
21:58 VanessaE oh and for the record, I reported that collision box issue over a fucking year ago
21:58 VanessaE OVER A YEAR
21:58 VanessaE wtf?
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21:59 paramat we closed water being able to fluch torches after 5 years
21:59 paramat *flush
21:59 VanessaE so?
21:59 paramat #4046 seems unwise 11 days before release
22:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4046 -- Update and rework Android app by ShadowNinja
22:00 VanessaE a year is an unreasonable time to wait for a bugfix, especially one that was supposed to be "high priority"
22:00 paramat unfortunately a year is a short time in MT dev
22:00 VanessaE had it not been so-labeled, I wouldn't be sitting here complaining about it
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22:15 VanessaE oh, and for the record, even 6 months is not a "short time" unless your priorities are "oh let's put this and that and the other new refactor, style issue, etc. into place".
22:16 VanessaE you want to talk priorities?  get serious about it then.
22:17 VanessaE bug fixes first.  then performance.  then new features.  then refactors and style fixes and the like (unless one of the preceding needs it first).
22:17 paramat yeah i'm actually arguiig right now that refactors and new features are not priorities for release
22:17 paramat closing a few milestones
22:17 VanessaE ok good, then we agree.
22:17 red-002 end users don't care what the code looks like
22:25 nerzhul red-002, we agree about that, but don't forget two things: not refactored code mean painful maintenance and more bug triggering chances, and code style differences means unreable code
22:25 nerzhul also coredevs can refactor things to make future end user features easier, ti's why refactor should be done.
22:28 VanessaE refactor when the new feature in question is actually going to go in, not a year in advance, where there's a high probability of the feature being forgotten or decided not to be needed.
22:29 VanessaE you want ot add feature foo and feature bar needs refactored to make it work?  refactor bar right then and there, just before you're ready to patch feature foo into mainline.
22:29 VanessaE to*
22:31 VanessaE in other words, "Why are you preparing?  You're always preparing.  Just go!"
23:46 Hijiri ~/buffer 46
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