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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2017-03-16

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Time Nick Message
00:00 betterthanyou711 joined #minetest-dev
00:01 paramat i'll merge #5327 #5386 later. would like to merge mgv7 caverns too if anyone can review #5382
00:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5327 -- Fix various problems with sneaking by sfan5
00:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5386 -- Get biome list: Downgrade missing biome message to infostream by paramat
00:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5382 -- Mgv7: Add optional giant caverns at depth by paramat
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01:02 VanessaE oh 5327 is gonna piss off a lot of people, paramat.....
01:02 VanessaE here, you're gonna need this.
01:02 * VanessaE hands paramat a fire-proof suit
01:03 paramat hehe
01:05 VanessaE also regarding your comments in 5349, I LOVE the vertical carts idea.
01:06 VanessaE just needs proper vertical rails instead of ladders and you're gold.
01:06 VanessaE or rather, fixer's comments.
01:07 VanessaE I think if you add that, sneak elevators (the only real reason anyone wanted that glitch) would be irrelevant.
01:09 paramat yes vertical carts can be fast too, to match the 6n/s of sneak ladder. expensive to build though. a water column plus boat is a good replacement
01:10 VanessaE I don't like the water+boat idea
01:10 VanessaE seems too unrealistic
01:11 VanessaE but a cart traveling on a vertical rail is a pretty basic game mechanic since the earliest days of games, so it makes sense.
01:13 VanessaE Super Mario Brothers featured something similar in some levels, if I remember right - a girder traveling on a vertical cable/wire
01:13 VanessaE or that might have been Donkey Kong
01:13 VanessaE I forget, been too many years :P
01:13 kaeza <VanessaE> oh 5327 is gonna piss off a lot of people, paramat.....
01:14 kaeza my floating island is now inaccessible, thank you
01:14 kaeza >:(
01:14 kaeza but seriously, good that it's finally fixed
01:16 Shara As much as I want some sneak issues fixed, the losses from it are really, really bad.
01:18 VanessaE so yeah.  paramat add super-fast vertical carts and a special vertical rail.
01:19 VanessaE make the recipe for the rails cheap, and even reuse the existing cart, and I think the complaints will be at a bare minimum.
01:19 paramat perhaps i'll defer that to the carts expert Krock :]
01:19 Shara Cart changes won't help me at all, but I agree that would be very to do in general.
01:19 Shara very good*
01:19 VanessaE "Krock's not here, man!"
01:20 paramat we do need modders to come up with replacements for the desired sneak bugs
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01:21 Shara paramat: I have been thinking about it a lot, but don't really have a good idea.
01:22 paramat Fixer suggests a rope mod
01:22 Shara I was thinking about a tool to create handholds, but couldn't settle on a way to implement that I actually liked.
01:23 VanessaE sofar: *poke*
01:23 VanessaE paramat: I really favor the vertical carts idea.  ropes seem too "in your face" in a way
01:24 VanessaE plus a cart would better play into the notion that your player should get tired from a super long climb
01:25 paramat alternating holes in a wall as handholds is sort-of reasonable but they're too far apart, more reasonable would be alternating slabs and slab-sized air gaps
01:26 paramat a mod might be able to detect these and make the column next to them 'climbable' airlike nodes
01:26 Shara paramat: what I had in mind would sadly need full node ladders where you climb while standing in the next node.
01:26 VanessaE paramat: well the old sneak elevator always went into a corner (or was formed as such), so it really DID make sense - I mean, if you can have a game like Crazy Climber...
01:27 paramat the sneak elevator doesn't need a corner https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/5327#issuecomment-283882605
01:27 Shara I was thinking tool converts stone nodes to stone nodes with handholds, then when you dig them it's just back to normal cobble.
01:27 paramat yeah good idea
01:27 Shara But I need a way to handle the air node being the climable one instead.
01:28 Shara And then it just feels a bit messy :)
01:28 VanessaE paramat: yep, I know, but usually that's how people built them
01:29 Shara Done in corners they could look just like part of the building.
01:30 VanessaE Shara: that's not a bad idea, could even be done with an LBM
01:30 VanessaE (but it would be VERY tricky to avoid damaging a building that's simply made that way)
01:31 Shara I am really thinking it would just work on stone. I want somethign that preserves player's ability to move around the giant valleys caves
01:32 paramat just 'on_construct' add a 'drawtype = airlike' 'climbable = true' node next to the handholds node
01:32 paramat 'on destruct' remove it
01:32 Shara Yea. Just thinking through how it would work.
01:32 Shara I'll probably give it a try.
01:33 VanessaE Shara: well, make it work on stone and any "foo-in-stone" ore.
01:33 VanessaE (if it were LBM)
01:35 Shara Haven't done much with LBMs yet, so will see what happens. Hopefully the attempt won't cause me to hide under a stone.
01:37 paramat in terms of game balance, the speed of a sneak elevator compared to the work put into it is very out of balance with ladders, staircases, carts on a slope, almost makes them obsolete
01:38 paramat but players got used to it
01:38 Shara Amount of verticle height makes most other methods tedious.
01:38 paramat yeah
01:40 paramat so i made the ladder recipe almost twice as generous and increased climb speed. we can make rails more generous too
01:40 Shara Climb speed increase is good. I just don't much like ladders.
01:41 Shara Carrying stacks of ladders underground feels less realistic than sneak ladders to me... but that's why I want to do something with handholds.
01:42 VanessaE offtopic:  adjust the client and/or server to interpret a leading backslash \ as equivalent to a forward slash / for starting a command.  :P
01:47 paramat i'll make a PR for rails recipe and do the same strict pixel-volume thing, should hopefully be more generous
01:49 sofar VanessaE: ouch
01:49 VanessaE sofar: --> #-project
02:49 paramat will merge #5327 #5386 in a moment
02:49 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5327 -- Fix various problems with sneaking by sfan5
02:49 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5386 -- Get biome list: Downgrade missing biome message to infostream by paramat
02:59 paramat merging ..
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03:02 paramat it is done! =/
03:04 VanessaE better put on that flame-proof suit
03:04 paramat wow closes 4 year old issue 329
03:09 kaeza well, I have this if you need it: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=4469
03:09 VanessaE HA!
03:11 kaeza also, CSM merged? :o
03:12 VanessaE yep
03:18 paramat hehe
03:18 paramat potentially 7 issues closed by 5327
03:20 paramat game#1624 could be merged now i've downgraded those messages
03:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1624 -- Biomes: Add and auto-select mgv7 floatland biomes by paramat
03:39 paramat nice, 6 steel ingots can actually give 42 rail nodes, volumewise
03:50 paramat to provide enough wood for the sleepers the recipe would be 6 ingots plus 9 wood nodes in the centre (or 28 sticks, but no point)
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05:34 kaeza hm, there doesn't seem to be a way to get the player position in CSM yet?
05:36 Zeno` hacker!
05:37 kaeza what
05:38 kaeza the sneaking fix brought other small issues
05:38 kaeza fences are now magnetic :D
05:39 kaeza place a fence, stand next to it, not touching but the player's collision box should be inside the node, and jump while sneaking
05:39 kaeza you are instantly "attracted" to the fence
05:40 Zeno` feature :D
05:42 kaeza also can't go through a door while sneaking
05:46 Zeno` really?
05:53 sofar I don't see the fence problem
05:54 sofar you can't sneak through the fencegate and door, though, indeed
05:56 kaeza other way I could reproduce is to place a stairs node, stand on the first step against the second one, then hit sneak
05:57 kaeza uh, stand on the first step but a bit away from the second one
06:07 kaeza https://youtu.be/yy5GkPGhjRw
06:15 kaeza on the bright side, climbing stairs seems faster now thanks to that mini-teleportation :P
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06:17 Zeno` I've written a new PR. Proof of concept is here: http://dpaste.com/2QV0Y80
06:19 VanessaE suggestion:  if two or more mt_game wooden gates are stacked vertically, they should open/close together (like Homedecor's gates do)
06:22 sofar Zeno`: nice
06:26 Zeno` hehe thanks
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06:46 nerzhul sofar, if you are around, can you look at red-001 pr #5113 ? thanks
06:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5113 -- [CSM] Give CSM access to core.colorize by red-001
06:47 nerzhul thanks for your reviews :)
06:53 nerzhul merging #5396
06:53 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5396 -- [CSM] Add ModStorageAPI by nerzhul
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08:09 nerzhul if someone has time to review #5401, it's fairly trivial, it exposed clientenvironment partially with 5 calls to client
08:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5401 -- [CSM] Add core.get_timeofday & core.get_day_count env calls by nerzhul
08:12 red-001 +1 on the idea
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09:34 nrzkt merging #5399
09:34 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5399 -- [CSM] Add minimap API modifiers by nerzhul
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10:08 nrzkt I'm pushing an indent fix, due to merge on previous commit, with github resolution tool ... :(
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13:26 est31 the sneak ladder thing got merged? that's sad
13:26 est31 well, I guess I dont really care about minetest any more
13:26 est31 not playing it any more and stuff
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13:29 twoelk maybe have cheap cobble ladders?
13:29 twoelk regarding such as simple notches cut into stone
13:30 est31 or the ability to build long ladders cheaply
13:31 est31 and not getting them griefed
13:31 est31 its usually hard to protect such long ladders
13:31 est31 which is why sneak ladders are so good, you dont need to protect them
13:31 est31 if someone griefed them, its trivial to fix them
13:33 twoelk indeed, being able to build things cheaply is vital in some environments
13:33 twoelk for example roads built of cheap material last longer
13:34 twoelk this is where society on minetest servers differs from real life
13:36 est31 yeah xD
13:37 Fixer est31: now ladders have a life!
13:38 Fixer i've also realised that there are not that much really deep sneak ladders, they are useful on short and mid distances, but it is very long to make them to great depths, i've noticed some people just dig down and place water source below at finish, then use /spawn - problem solved
13:39 Fixer est31: you sound like some guy who quit minetest development over usage of mese crystals %)
13:41 Fixer haters gonna hate, i used sneak-features everywhere, but i still think disabling that adds a challenge to game, to mining, makes player think were is he walking and how, you can't just ooops i'm falling, shift activated, superhero landing 100 nodes down without damage
13:41 Fixer use ladders, water shaft, boat elevators etc etc
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14:40 Zeno` the sneak ladder fix has all sorts of problems
14:40 Zeno` see log
14:40 Zeno` Fixer: the PR was flawed
14:40 Zeno` It should never have been merged
14:42 nrzkt oh ! hi Zeno`
14:43 Zeno` hi
14:43 nrzkt how are you dude ?
14:43 Zeno` not great. Sorry
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14:49 sfan5 Zeno`: are you alluding to the various arguments already presented in the pr discussion?
14:50 Zeno` nope... in the log
14:50 sfan5 where
15:35 sofar I'm sure there will be other issues found
15:35 sofar the PR was open for long enough time for everyone to review
15:37 nrzkt hi sofar
15:37 nrzkt thanks for your reviews
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16:05 Fixer sfan5: did not understand your question about the grass, if you ask why grasses convert dirt below, that was reworked in minetest some time ago, very useful for grass spread and terraforming
16:09 Fixer sfan5: if i need to terraform some grass to my needs, i just place dirt and certain type of grass and it will convert and spread more, more or less like in mc
16:11 sofar merging game#1580
16:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1580 -- Change doors to default.can_interact_with_node() by Thomas--S
17:12 Zeno` sofar, so it was merged without testing?
17:13 Zeno` Because it sure looks like it to me atm
17:14 sofar I played with it for days
17:15 sofar 2, maybe 3?
17:15 Zeno` ok, well maybe I am seeing things differently
17:15 Zeno` which might be the case because I was against it
17:15 Zeno` so maybe I'm biased
17:16 sofar I get that
17:16 sofar many people also have been playing way longer and using that feature
17:16 sofar but I still claim that 90% of users don't even know about what it was
17:17 sofar or how to use it
17:17 Zeno` maybe yeah
17:17 VanessaE hell 60 or 70 percent of the Minetest userbase these days can't use sneak elevators anyway
17:18 VanessaE (because you can't sneak and jump at the same time on a tablet/phone)
17:18 Zeno` heh, true
17:18 Zeno` make that 90% though :P
17:28 sofar however, I'm not convinced that there won't be any errors in it
17:28 sofar but I *hate* the attitude that every commit needs to somehow be "magic"
17:28 sofar you can't develop software like that
17:29 sofar incremental development and iterative bugfixing is a much healthier way to develop software
17:29 sofar accept failures occur and deal rationally with them, like an adult
17:34 Fixer Zeno`: i've also tested that sneaking pr too
17:34 Fixer now MT feels challenging and great again
17:34 Fixer terrain is meaningful and great again
17:35 Fixer you can't just ninja anything
17:37 Wayward_One <VanessaE> (because you can't sneak and jump at the same time on a tablet/phone)
17:38 Wayward_One Actually, you can, and I have utilized sneak ladders quite often on my tablet
17:38 VanessaE really?
17:38 VanessaE I was under the impression tablets couldn't do that
17:38 VanessaE nevertheless, sofar is that that 90% of the userbase doesn't know what a sneak elevator even is.
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17:40 twoelk butbut I did, my advantage is gone :(
17:41 sofar not really
17:41 VanessaE besides, with default keybindings, you can climb ladders fast can't you?
17:41 sofar a /home and a vertical shaft with water are still functional ways to get up/down insanely fast
17:41 VanessaE (space + E, isn't it?)
17:42 VanessaE and anyway, use travelnet booths or elevators.  that's a cheap mod anyone can install
17:42 VanessaE so sneak elevators are useless anyway
17:43 twoelk well, sneak elevaters could be made at every place at any time without advance planning or setting home to a single place
17:43 VanessaE true.
17:44 twoelk but meh, destroy everything that is unique to minetest and make it like all them others ;-P
17:45 sofar gimmicks like the sneak ladder is what makes minetest weak
17:45 twoelk define weak
17:45 sofar it avoids the confrontation with the things it actually needs to be a better game
17:45 sofar "but I can go up this mine really fast"
17:45 sofar yeah but, mines are boring and totally not dangerous
17:46 twoelk like take away feature a and replace with feature b?
17:46 sofar I just ran into the pub mines in xanadu the other day with three sticks and an apple
17:47 sofar mese monster killed me in 5 seconds... awesome
17:47 sofar yeah that's a great monster alright
17:47 twoelk I agree that the sneak code had to be fixed - but doing away with sneak ladders doesn't make the game better in my opinion
17:47 sofar boop boop but I have a sneak elevator
17:48 sofar it does, it makes ladders more useful
17:48 sofar it also removes cheats to go through solid blocks
17:48 sofar completely bogus features
17:48 twoelk xanadu does have cheap cobble ladders, wich I think are a good thing
17:51 twoelk anyways, with buildingsbreaking sneakfix, new leafdecay, visualsbreaking new colormetadata andsomethingotherbreakingiforgot we should call the next release 0.5.0
17:52 VanessaE considering CSM also went in.... 0.5.0 might not be such a bad idea.,
17:52 twoelk +1
17:53 nore would 0.5.0 finally be there? \o/
17:53 twoelk all the breaking stuff would surely justify it
17:53 twoelk and warn people to be carefull withold maps
17:55 twoelk ah yes, not to forget the modbreaking modsecuritythingity
17:59 sofar nore: need node setmeta first though :)
18:00 sofar at a minimum for tiles[]
18:00 nore sofar: that one ^^'
18:00 nore I haven't even completed the rebase last year
18:00 sofar I've got a PR here or there like that
18:00 nore now last rebase is 2 year old and there was the content_mapblock refactor
18:00 sofar maybe it's easier now
18:01 nore for tiles[] only it might not have the efficiency problem at least
18:01 sofar well what else could you want?
18:01 nore but well, it would be easier to just rewrite it from scratch
18:01 sofar swapping mesh in nodemeta seems over engineered
18:01 nore hmm, dynamic nodebox maybe
18:02 sofar ok, sure, that's not such a bad idea
18:02 nore or even imagine an ingame node editor :)
18:02 nore anyway, rewriting from scratch might be easier
18:02 nore oh, and all the light fixes as well
18:02 nore this makes it harder to rebase since it changed things in the light code
18:03 sofar oh yes
18:03 nore well, it changed things everywhere
18:03 sofar node set meta: node light value
18:03 sofar to vary node light level
18:03 nore yeah
18:03 nore actually, it should be rebased/redone piecewise
18:03 sofar hmm what about things like physics properties/node damage/speed?
18:04 twoelk keep that for 0.6.0
18:04 nore the first being changing MapNode to NodeWithDef almost everywhere in the code
18:04 * twoelk runs and hides
18:04 nore once that is done meta_set_nodedef will not be such a big thing
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18:04 nore that was what I tried unsuccessfully to rebase last time
18:05 nore but if I must finish one of my PRs, I think clientside-translate is more important
18:05 nore and more mature as well
18:06 * sofar hisses
18:07 * twoelk muses on personalized local translations to surprise his nephews
18:07 nore twoelk: well, it could even work if you put the translations in texture packs, but only if the server has translations enabled :p
18:08 Amaz Is anyone else getting bugs with the minimap now? (After the clientside api for it was merged...) I'm getting this: http://i.imgur.com/4EpJkTw.png (Notice the infotext!)
18:08 Amaz This is with client side modding enabled, btw
18:09 Amaz And I can't seem to enable it at all with csm disabled. When I press f9, the minimap appears briefly, and then dissapears...
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18:13 sofar nerzhul: http://i.imgur.com/4EpJkTw.png
18:14 Amaz nerzhul: Do you know anything about this? http://irc.minetest.net/minet​est-dev/2017-03-16#i_4832336
18:14 nerzhul sofar, strange minimap, i didn't had this problem
18:14 sofar Amaz has
18:14 sofar note the GL error
18:15 nerzhul sofar, you read the API we don't change textures :)
18:15 sofar I know
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18:19 nerzhul i don't know really where the problem is, because i jsut use the primitives, maybe ther is a little bit hacky things in minimap itself, maybe you can help us to find error by telling me how to reproduce ? I go to lunch
18:21 Amaz I enabled CSM (only the preview mod), and then pressed f9 to cycle through the modes. When it should be hidden, the wierd texture comes up.
18:22 Amaz I'm not so sure about the OpenGl message, sometimes it comes up, sometimes it doesn't...
18:22 kilbith Amaz: two questions, 1. what's the bad commit 2. do you use shaders
18:23 Amaz And if I change the shape while it's "hidden" this happens: http://i.imgur.com/undefined.png
18:23 Amaz kilbith: Yes, I'm using shaders, & I think this is the bad commit: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/40ce538aad9af8f7634c4ba7e9f12246fb23b31c
18:23 Amaz (I'm compiling to make sure)
18:25 kilbith try disabling shaders and let us know
18:26 Amaz Okay, will do :)
18:27 Amaz The minimap remains present when it should be hidden even with shaders off.
18:27 kilbith how does it look with shaders off
18:27 Amaz And I still (seemingly randomly) get the message: "ERROR[Main]: Irrlicht: Invalid size of image for OpenGL Texture."
18:28 Amaz Exactly the same
18:28 Amaz It also happens on a clean build, with a new config file
18:29 Amaz Minimap works fine here: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/eb88e5dd4b181a90b382c036cf6c4f42e63e8cc2 but is broken here: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/40ce538aad9af8f7634c4ba7e9f12246fb23b31c
18:31 Amaz Don't know if this would affect it at all, but my graphics card is a GeForce 8400, I'm using openGL 3.0, and am on Antergos.
18:31 kilbith doesn't matter now
18:40 Amaz Hm, I removed the minimap code from the preview mod, and now I can't display the minimap at all, like without CSM enabled... (But this is with CSM.)
18:46 Wayward_One #5403
18:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5403 -- Loading image shows incorrectly on Android
18:46 Amaz Should I make an issue about the minimap bug?
18:47 kilbith yes
18:47 Amaz kk
18:50 Amaz #5404
18:50 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5404 -- Minimap bug
18:51 Amaz Not a very informative title, but I couldn't think of anything better (I just added CSM, to clarify it's related to that :))
18:52 * Amaz will be afk for around half an hour now
18:52 nerzhul Amaz, okay it's a state mismatch which should be handled in the API because API is very atomic in terms of attributes
18:53 Amaz Okay
18:57 nerzhul Amaz, with CSM disable the minimap is never shown, you said ?
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18:58 kilbith Wayward_One: you're up-to-date with git HEAD?
19:01 nerzhul Amaz, i have the fix for disabled state from lua i think, for the disabled CSM not permitting to toggle i tihink i have it too
19:02 nerzhul Amaz, the texture is shown in which case ?
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19:03 nerzhul Amaz, the minimap toggling mode is okay, now only hiding seems to be broken
19:08 kilbith Wayward_One: still up?
19:14 Amaz Sorry, was afk
19:15 Amaz The texture was not showing if CSM was disabled, or if I removed the preview code from the preview mod (same behaviour in both cases)
19:16 Krock kilbith, I believe it could also have to do with the function call "getSize()" of the texture instead of "getOriginalSize"
19:17 nerzhul Amaz, i have fix for the bad texture now i'm facing to a problem with show/hide functions which doesn't seems to work well after the fix :)
19:18 Amaz Okay :)
19:20 nerzhul Amaz, please test #5405 it's not finished yet but partially fixed your problems, i just have problem with the current complexity of flagging if we show minimap or not
19:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5405 -- [CSM] Fix minimap problems by nerzhul
19:29 Wayward_One kilbith, sorry, was afk. i'm up to date as of last night. i'll try those patches soon
19:29 kilbith thanks
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20:04 Wayward_One kilbith, neither patch worked :/
20:20 kilbith sad
20:22 kilbith I'll see if I can grab a tablet tomorrow at work
20:23 twoelk duh - just updated mt and ran right into the minimap bug :-(
20:24 nerzhul twoelk, #5405 i'm working on it
20:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5405 -- [CSM] Fix minimap problems by nerzhul
20:29 nerzhul i think i will do a refactor PR on the Game class there are many areas which needs optimisations
20:29 nerzhul for example processInput which pass reference to 4 members of a structure and copy last elements instead of passing just the structure itself
20:31 nerzhul sofar, sfan5 can you look at 5405 it fixes the recent minimap problems
20:32 nerzhul it's a partial lua minimap change revert due to our current minimap design which has some problems on flagging how to show minimap
20:33 nerzhul s/how/if/
20:33 nerzhul twoelk, Amaz please test this patch and config it's good to you
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21:47 juhdanad Hi everyone!
21:47 juhdanad Does anyone use the old, flat item style?
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23:01 sofar flat item style?
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23:55 kaeza sfan5, this: http://irc.minetest.net/minet​est-dev/2017-03-16#i_4831654

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