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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2017-01-04

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Time Nick Message
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02:11 VanessaE hmmmm: did you mean "Won't someone PLEASE think of the pull requests?!" :)
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02:49 lhofhansl btw. I fixed over PRs, not 10 as Celeron55 stated a few days ago. Somehow sometimes lhofhansl@yahoo.com is used, and sometimes it's larsh@apache.org, but it's both me.
02:49 lhofhansl over 20 PRs that is.
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04:56 Foz Does anyone know how to use the player:<name> inventory location? I am getting an error: 'The selected inventory location "player:Hal" doesn't exist' unless I am logged in as Hal. I read about minetest.get_inventory() but i'm not sure how to use that in a formspec list.
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06:15 nrzkt hmmmm, i think about them, and i think... they will need to rebase, because this change is needed :(
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06:28 sofar Foz: modding questions go in #minetest
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06:56 nrzkt hi Zeno`
06:59 Zeno` hi
07:14 Zeno` nrzkt, I looked at your PR. So far I think it looks good
07:17 nrzkt Zeno`, cool, i added a last commit to fix points mentioned by juhdanad points this morning
07:18 lhofhansl #4990, continuation of #4895
07:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4990 -- Use std::vector instead of std::map in class ABMHandler, original by Rogier-5 by lhofhansl
07:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4895 -- Use std::vector instead of std::map in class ABMHandler by Rogier-5
07:18 nrzkt lhofhansl, yes, i commented it this morning :)
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07:39 Zeno` interesting PRs
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10:54 Zeno` VanessaE and hmmmm have too but like Zeno they are not MTGame devs so they count as players.
10:54 Zeno` lol
10:54 Zeno` it's hilarious
10:57 Zeno` Actually I'm tired of it. From this point on I think I have to not count paramat's up/down-voting on engine issues unless it's mapgen related
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11:14 juhdanad The map data is mostly unusable without the node definition manager. Should the map have a link to it?
11:19 Zeno` Also, I don't think it's right to ignore the poll just because the results might not be want you want
11:19 Zeno` the poll results are not exactly heading where I what them to head either, but I will accept them
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11:23 Zeno` juhdanad, what do you mean?
11:23 Zeno` link where?
11:25 juhdanad A member variable: INodeDefManager *nodedef in the Map, with a getter.
11:25 Zeno` oh, perhaps
11:26 Zeno` is this is relation to nrzkt's refactoring?
11:26 juhdanad Since almost everything that works with nodes gets a Map and a nodedef as a parameter.
11:26 Zeno` ah, I see. Yeah then without seeing code I'd probably agree
11:27 juhdanad No, this is for #4346. Nerzhul asked me to move getPointedThing() to a class.
11:27 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4346 -- Improved getPointedThing() by juhdanad
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11:28 juhdanad And I would like to put it into ClientEnvironment, because to get a pointed thing you have to know the nodes and the entities on the world.
11:28 Zeno` well off the top of my head I can't think of any major things wrong with your suggestion
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11:44 sfan5 Foz: that's a feature
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11:45 sfan5 i'm not even sure why we have the player:<name> thing since we also have current_player
11:50 juhdanad What is the difference between Client and ClientEnvironment?
11:53 nrzkt juhdanad: Client knows the network and Env. Env knows CAO & Map
11:54 nrzkt juhdanad: the good question is: what is the difference between game & client
11:54 nrzkt :p
11:54 nrzkt client only interfaces Env, Network & Game
11:55 juhdanad So Client is responsible for rendering, network and input, Environment is responsible for storing and processing all actual game data (voxels and entities).
11:55 nrzkt rendering is done in Game if i remember, and in non class owned functions (beurk)
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11:56 nrzkt environment is game itself yes, objects, map
11:56 nrzkt Game is... something strange between client & irrlicht
11:56 nrzkt i think game should be merged into client, because client seems to be appropriate for rendering
11:57 juhdanad Will it be acceptable if I move getSelectedActiveObject() from Client to ClientEnvironment (since it is not graphics, but a simple raycast); and move getPointedThing() to ClientEnvironment, too?
11:58 nrzkt where is it serverside ? in ServerEnv or in Server (similar functions)
11:58 nrzkt if getSelectedActiveObject only involve CAO and not irrlicht that make sense
11:58 nrzkt CAO&map
11:58 nrzkt for getPointedThing() that make sense too
11:58 juhdanad It is currently client only. I'm talking about #4346.
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11:58 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4346 -- Improved getPointedThing() by juhdanad
11:59 nrzkt oh there is Hud & CAO
11:59 nrzkt and HUD is linked with game if i remember
12:00 nrzkt who owns the Hud pointer ? Client or Game ?
12:00 juhdanad Yes, the actual raycasting will go to ClientEnvironment, and updating the HUD to the Game.
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12:00 nrzkt Game then, then client seems to be the more appropriated because he knows env & Game
12:01 juhdanad Sorry, I don't understand that.
12:01 nrzkt Client sorry :p
12:01 nrzkt Replace first Game with client :p
12:02 juhdanad Okay!
12:02 juhdanad However, #4421 will abstract avay getPointedThing(), so you can use it on server, too.
12:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4421 -- Expose getPointedThing() as RaycastState by juhdanad
12:02 nrzkt i looked at getSelectedActiveObject who calls this function ?
12:03 juhdanad Only getPointedThing().
12:03 nrzkt boxLineCollision is owned by something ?
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12:04 juhdanad No, it is a math helper function that I wrote.
12:04 nrzkt okay
12:04 nrzkt getSelectedActiveObject is a pure ClientEnvironment function as i see
12:04 nrzkt CAO & Env only are called
12:04 juhdanad This is why I want to move it to ClientEnvironment.
12:04 nrzkt perfect then,
12:04 juhdanad I hope I will push soon.
12:05 nrzkt take your time :)
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13:31 nrzkt sfan5 are you there ?
13:38 nrzkt sfan5: #4991
13:38 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4991 -- Travis: Build server too for UNIX by nerzhul
13:40 nrzkt travis doesn't build server on UNIX platforms, it's not good, sometimes we have little code parts which changes depending on client or server
13:45 sfan5 hm could be useful
13:46 sfan5 will look at it later
13:49 nrzkt it just add -DENABLE_SERVER=1 to cmake line :)
13:51 nrzkt i noticed this when sofar reports a compilation error and when fixing it i see travis is green, i'm green and ... ENABLE_SERVER=FALSE by default
13:51 nrzkt i saw*
13:52 nrzkt ENABLE_SERVER=true => compilation error, like sofar, unlike travis => ENABLE_SERVER=TRUE should be required by travis
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14:08 nrzkt sfan5: build passes :)
14:11 sfan5 nrzkt: seems good to me
14:12 nrzkt okay, can i merge ? :)
14:12 sfan5 yes
14:13 nrzkt done
14:13 nrzkt we now properly test dedicated servers on travis :)
14:13 nrzkt build*
14:16 nrzkt Zeno`: for https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4990 is this an approval ?
14:16 nrzkt except the commit author ?
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14:31 Zeno` yes
14:36 Zeno` it wasn't at the time, but I tested and reviewed more
14:36 Zeno` so may as well take it as a yes
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15:59 rubenwardy almost trivial PR for review: #4987
15:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4987 -- Expose and document chatcommands as minetest.registered_chatcommands by rubenwardy
16:05 rubenwardy merging game#1483 in 10 minutes...
16:05 nrzkt rubenwardy: why changing variable name expose it ?
16:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1483 -- Add /killme chat command by rubenwardy
16:06 nrzkt is there any harry potter magic ?
16:06 rubenwardy nrzkt: to make it consistent with other tables
16:06 rubenwardy it's currently undocumented so might as well not be exposed
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16:11 rubenwardy actually, just noticed a problem in killme so won't merge
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16:54 Zeno` hmmmm, paramat seems to intend ignore the results of the poll: https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1493
16:55 Zeno` also, your opinion as well as mine are basically to be ignored because we're just players: https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1478
16:55 Zeno` https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1478
16:55 Zeno` oops
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16:56 Zeno` https://github.com/minetest/minetest_g​ame/issues/1493#issuecomment-270269601
16:57 Zeno` https://github.com/minetest/minetest_g​ame/issues/1478#issuecomment-270251534
16:57 Zeno` I don't think he wants to listen to anybody
16:58 rubenwardy there's more than enough MTG to overrule him on the basis of the poll results
16:58 rubenwardy *MTG devs
16:58 rubenwardy *active
16:58 Zeno` rubenwardy, I'm not sure that's the point. He seems to want to ignore everyone
16:59 hmmmm where is the forum poll?
17:03 Zeno` you'd have to ask sofar
17:04 Zeno` I really don't know what's going on. It's like he's a different person from a month ago
17:04 sofar https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&amp;​t=16332&amp;sid=27006dd8fe24985b6ddeb5531a071f2e
17:06 sofar I wanted to explore what the preferred default behavior should be, and get a good idea of what secondary behavior people want
17:07 sofar I didn NOT want to explore "which kitchen sink sounds best for everyone"
17:07 sofar we will end up with the kitchen sink anyway
17:07 Zeno` "Players know how to use settings, leaving that out of the options alters the votes.
17:07 Zeno` Refusing my requests will make this poll invalid and biased and i will take no notice of it and will encourage other devs to do the same.
17:07 Zeno` I'm sorry to be a pain over this but this inherent bias is not acceptable."
17:07 Zeno` what does that even mean?
17:07 sofar but the default behavior will still be a fight
17:08 hmmmm he's grasping at straws
17:08 sofar the discussion hasn't gone productive in a while
17:09 sofar the poll was an idea to get people to think constructively
17:09 sofar "what do players want most"
17:09 Zeno` isn't that what's most important/
17:09 Zeno` ?
17:09 sofar in the end what we're gonna make should cater to 95% of the players
17:09 sofar even if they're split in 2 camps
17:09 sofar or even 3
17:10 Zeno` If the players want not plants underground without the super-lamps, then I won't like it. But I'll accept it
17:10 Zeno` I thought that was what a poll was for
17:10 sofar yes, that's one of the points
17:14 sofar what's good about the poll results is that most people clearly favor the two options that would be relatively easy to implement with only 1 config option
17:14 hmmmm why not just add the config option choice
17:14 sofar because that's the deciding factor for the PR
17:15 sofar not for the question "what do people want"
17:15 hmmmm i know it doesn't make a whole lot of sense given the context here, but we'll be making somebody else happy
17:15 sofar poll ~= pull request
17:15 sofar the poll is just a question
17:15 sofar what gameplay do you want to end up with
17:15 sofar not
17:15 sofar what config option allowing multiple gameplay behaviors do you want to end up with
17:16 sofar the latter is wholly unanswerable without a thesis length explanation
17:16 sofar of each possibility
17:16 hmmmm i mean i get the reasoning
17:17 hmmmm the config option could be to choose between the two most popular end behaviors in the poll
17:17 sofar that's my intent
17:17 sofar if at all possible, of course
17:17 hmmmm you could reduce conflict here by conceding and doing something that doesn't necessarily make a whole lot of sense though
17:17 sofar but I think it will be
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17:32 Zeno` it's a game. As long as something is not so unrealistic that's it's dumb then *shrug*
17:32 Zeno` I doubt anyone wants to play "world of real life"
17:34 Zeno` where you sit in an office all day doing mindless and mind numbing stuff
17:34 Zeno` go do the shopping
17:34 Zeno` vacuum the carpets
17:35 Zeno` do the dishes, wash the car... I suppose it could be a subgame
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17:37 rdococ sounds like that would be the work of a specialised server
17:37 Zeno` yeah, it'd be fun!
17:37 rdococ a singleplayer "world of real life" makes no sense - eg who would have built the offices, shops, vacuum cleaners, carpets, dishes or cars?
17:38 rdococ in a way it's just a boring city roleplay
17:38 hmmmm the germans love real life simulators
17:38 hmmmm there's this company that makes nothing but X Simulator <current year> for every possible profession
17:38 hmmmm Farm Simulator 2016
17:38 rdococ idk I've seen some german simulators and it'd be more realistic to call them assimilators...
17:38 hmmmm Office Simulator 2016
17:38 sfan5 don't forget Truck Simulator
17:39 hmmmm yup
17:39 Zeno` bbiab, hanging out the washing to dry for a bonus 1000 points
17:40 rdococ you'd also need customers
17:44 Zeno` err actually. Watching some of the players on mutiplayer servers they might like this
17:44 Zeno` forget I said anything lol
17:45 rdococ whadya mean? :p
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17:51 juhdanad est31, are you here?
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18:10 est31 juhdanad: yes?
18:11 juhdanad Could you remove 'changes requested' status from #4346, please? I have corrected everything you asked.
18:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4346 -- Improved getPointedThing() by juhdanad
18:12 rubenwardy almost trivial PR for review: #4987
18:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4987 -- Expose and document chatcommands as minetest.registered_chatcommands by rubenwardy
18:15 est31 juhdanad: done
18:15 juhdanad Thank you!
18:16 juhdanad Then the PR has 3 approvals!
18:16 est31 thanks for the pr :)
18:17 est31 lets merge it
18:17 juhdanad But #4985 will be harder to rebase then!
18:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4985 -- Environment & IGameDef code refactoring by nerzhul
18:17 juhdanad I think I have more time to rebase my own.
18:17 juhdanad So I can wait.
18:18 est31 well this one is actually improving something
18:19 juhdanad Of course I don't forbid merging, just wanted not to steal time from nerzhul.
18:20 juhdanad Thanks for merge! #4027 and #3511 now can be closed.
18:21 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4027 -- Make getPointedThing faster by gregorycu
18:21 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3511 -- Setting an item's range high results in poor performance
18:23 Krock R.I.P  getPointedThing improvements by greg
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19:28 rdococ solar eclipses
19:30 rdococ is there a way to directly reposition the sun and moon?
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20:22 paramat hmmmm and all, i have responded to things said on IRC here onwards, please read https://github.com/minetest/minetest_g​ame/issues/1478#issuecomment-270471414
20:23 paramat i've been absent from IRC recently due to 2 weeks of aggressive behaviour towards me from zeno, i find IRC makes me anxious at the best of times
20:25 paramat i've patiently explained the light issues to zeno multiple times but he bizarrely continues to get many facts wrong, i'm actually concerned about him
20:27 paramat anyway, it's ok, we all get fed up with other devs sometimes, i had a problem with RBA sometimes
20:27 paramat zeno is still one of my favourite devs, lovely person
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20:28 paramat everyone is allowed to go nuts sometimes, i have several times :]
20:30 VanessaE paramat: just my opinion, but what you're doing is bullshit.
20:30 VanessaE comments on IRC need replies ON IRC.
20:31 paramat i have chronic anxiety and am slow on IRC, i can think clearer when replying in a post
20:31 VanessaE no offense, and you know I respect you, but that's just not going to fly.
20:32 paramat well then you're being unreasonable and insensitive
20:32 VanessaE I don't mean to be insensitive, but this fighting between you and zeno and others has GOT to stop
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20:32 VanessaE and that's not going to happen if you keep splitting up the conversation between here and github issues
20:33 paramat cool it, we can comment whereever we want
20:33 VanessaE ...
20:35 VanessaE in any case, you spelled out the whole problem with "Your opinion does count, to me too, but you have no dev authority in MTG."
20:36 sfan5 merging #4990 soon (>=2 approvals)
20:36 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4990 -- Use std::vector instead of std::map in class ABMHandler, original by Rogier-5 by lhofhansl
20:36 VanessaE engine devs should have dev authority over _game also, as long as the two remain "connected" in players' minds.
20:36 Shara To many players, minetest_game IS minetest.
20:36 VanessaE precisely.
20:37 VanessaE it does NOT matter whether there are other subgames
20:37 sfan5 the seperation is there for a reason
20:37 VanessaE the standard game IS minetest_game.
20:37 VanessaE nearly every mod written for this project is written for that subgame
20:38 VanessaE sfan5: noone's saying there shouldn't be a separation
20:38 sfan5 merged
20:38 rubenwardy Merging #4987 in 15 minutes
20:38 sfan5 i'm talking about the seperation of dev authorities
20:38 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4987 -- Expose and document chatcommands as minetest.registered_chatcommands by rubenwardy
20:38 VanessaE the point is that in everyone's minds, save for a couple of people here, the two pieces go together.
20:38 rubenwardy Game design is different to software design
20:38 VanessaE sfan5: that's fine too, but look what it's causing.
20:39 paramat a github post allows me to think at my own speed and format quotes and replies, that would be much more difficult for me on IRC, especially at the moment. so please do not have a go at me over where i choose to communicate
20:40 paramat it's a non-issue, not even worth mentioning
20:40 VanessaE I'm not "having a go" at you, paramat.
20:43 asl97 sfan5: so much for the whole 'flagging pr as merged', also, the functions are place between getNodeNoCheck and setNodeNoCheck. not a big issue but meh
20:43 VanessaE I'm just pissed off at what's generally going on around here.  everyone's doing shit that someone else hates and no one seems to want to work together to sort things out.  it's only focused on you because right now, you've been committing like 90% of what goes into mt_game
20:44 nore paramat: just stop being paranoid. people *know* that there will be an option or in the worst case it will be possible to change the behaviour by mods
20:44 nore so just calm down please
20:44 rubenwardy https://xkcd.com/1172/
20:44 rubenwardy !title
20:44 ShadowBot xkcd: Workflow
20:44 paramat it's not that bad, you're being overly negative, dev has been going very wel recently, with some good new devs joining
20:44 nore rubenwardy: :)
20:45 paramat (well)
20:45 paramat nore if i'm a little wound up it's due to 2 weeks of attacks from someone
20:45 paramat plus an unfair poll with my request refused
20:46 nore paramat: I can't say whether you have been attacked as you say, but the poll is *not* unfair
20:46 paramat i have suggested a setting so that eveyone is happy, lets do that
20:46 nore moreover, the poll has been changed to remove the mention of mods
20:46 nore and as I say, it is known it will be configurable
20:47 paramat if my preferred option is refused inclusion that's unfair
20:47 paramat your option request was accepted
20:48 nore paramat: your preferred option is *exactly* the same as the first, only that it explicits the fact that there will be a setting
20:48 paramat th esetting need to be mentioned otherwise option 1 looks less appealing
20:48 paramat (needs)
20:48 nore and voters already know that it will be possible to have it configured anyway because we won't merged something that can't
20:48 Shara Regardless of whether specific options are included or whether the highest voted option is selected, the poll shows a lot of people do not like the current behaviour.
20:49 nore paramat: regardless of that, people will vote for their preferred option
20:49 nore which is not the current behaviour, as Shara pointed
20:50 Shara It also shows absolutely no one wants option 3.
20:50 Shara So there 'is' some valid data there, regardless of how you choose to use it.
20:50 nore exactly
20:51 paramat yes, it's loosely representative
20:51 rubenwardy I think that the poll should mention it will be easily changable, especially for the forum one
20:52 paramat apart from forcing every MT player by law to vote there's no better way unfortunately
20:52 paramat i don't believe in player democracy though, it's best devs listen but take the final decision
20:53 sfan5 of course
20:53 sfan5 the poll is not going to approve any PRs
20:53 sfan5 but it should be strongly considered by the devs
20:54 paramat agreed
20:54 VanessaE extremely strongly - you don't maintain a userbase by ignoring what the users want (well, with exceptions)
20:55 nore paramat: whatever happens, it looks like the poll and the vote by devs it in favour of option 4, which has a lot less downvotes as the others
20:55 nore of course, we should wait until the voting delay expires
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20:56 nore but what I am saying is that 4 seems a good compromise to almost everyone (you are the only dev who opposed it)
20:56 rubenwardy merging...
20:57 paramat a setting would allow the choice between sensible current behaviour and old behaviour, without a messy compromise
20:57 sofar https://github.com/minetest/minetest_g​ame/issues/1493#issuecomment-270484317
20:58 Shara paramat: please correct me if I am wrong, but would old behaviour have been option 3 (or close to it)?
20:58 paramat correct
20:58 Shara People don't want option 3.
20:58 paramat that's what zeno, hmmmm and others want
20:59 Shara Look at the poll votes.
20:59 Shara They want the middle ground.
20:59 paramat although it's inconsistent yes
20:59 paramat my suggestion is a settable light level for all plants
20:59 sfan5 that's debatable
21:00 paramat my suggetion is simple and keeps current behaviour default
21:00 Fixer don't rush with it and it will probably work out right?
21:01 sfan5 paramat: few people want current behaviour to be default
21:01 paramat nope, only a few people have made a fuss
21:01 sfan5 wut
21:01 sfan5 just look at the poll votes
21:01 VanessaE ...
21:01 nore paramat: just look at the results of *both* polls
21:01 paramat how about the thousands who are queitly content?
21:02 paramat (quietly)
21:02 Fixer i had no problems with getting mese lamps tbh, and after recipe change lamps should be easy to obtain
21:02 asl97 there are thousands of user?
21:02 sfan5 paramat: you mean the people that haven't voiced their concerns?
21:02 Fixer we can leave everything as it is, with lamps required to grow stuff underground
21:02 VanessaE if those thousands want their opinions heard, they can vote or otherwise speak up.
21:02 paramat the poll shows option 1 has almost as much support as the others
21:03 sfan5 you can't go and assume peoples opinion
21:03 sfan5 "almost" is quite a strech
21:03 Shara Could also assume many people are not happy with current behaviour and didn't hear about this.
21:03 paramat it's the 2nd most popular after 4
21:04 paramat first choices: 4 has 10, 1 has 7
21:04 Fixer i've heared complaint from zeno, hmm-mmmm-m, maikerumine about that, but I was fine with it and didn't heared much else
21:04 sfan5 why does the second most popular matter?
21:04 nore paramat: yes, but look at downvotes
21:04 paramat the thumbs up/down is confusing
21:04 nore 4 has 5, 1 has 12
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21:05 paramat well the up/down votes make deciding the vote difficult
21:05 sfan5 you could add those up
21:05 sofar http://i.imgur.com/zVZmc42.png
21:05 sfan5 the emoticon vote option is what makes it difficult
21:05 paramat does an up/down vote count as much as a first choice what's the weighting? it's a mess
21:06 sfan5 i guess the "first choice" vote can be counted like a normal one and could be used to decide when a tire occurrs
21:06 sofar there are two ways to read the poll data
21:06 sofar 1) look at which is preferred
21:06 sofar 2) look at which is disliked the least
21:06 sofar the default behavior we implement should be least disliked
21:07 sofar and possibly also most preferred
21:07 paramat problem is we will now argue how to weight the different emotivores :]
21:07 paramat (emotivotes)
21:07 sofar so if you disregard the thumbs ups ("I like this and would settle for it")
21:07 sofar and instead focus on smileys ("This is how I'd like to play the best")
21:08 sofar and keep in mind the thumbs downs
21:08 sofar I think the poll results are fairly clear
21:08 sofar most agreable people will be OK with almost all options
21:08 sofar and that's shown in the thumbs ups
21:08 sofar but we shouldn't decide default behavior based on that
21:09 sofar so, all in all, there's a ton of good data in the poll results, already
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21:10 sofar it also shows me that people want underground growing to be possible, but harder
21:10 sofar only 1/4 players object to it being harder
21:10 VanessaE I've got a really nice underground orchard on my creative server.  built before all this shit happened.
21:10 sofar s/players/voters
21:10 rubenwardy it also shows me that people want underground growing to be possible with torches, but harder
21:10 sofar rubenwardy: yes
21:10 VanessaE sofar: unterminated 's' command :P
21:11 sofar VanessaE: shopt +s pedantic
21:11 paramat a straight adding up gives 4 in lead with 1 and 4 tieing 2nd
21:11 sofar adding isn't the right way
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21:12 sofar the forum poll is the same voters pretty much anyway
21:12 paramat Vanessa my suggestion will give you a setting to choose required light level
21:12 VanessaE the right way is instant run-off if you must do anything besides taking one option as "most preferred" right out of the gate.
21:12 paramat but this option is being refused
21:12 paramat from the poll
21:13 sofar I've explained why
21:13 paramat i know ..
21:13 sofar please read my last comment on the github thread
21:13 paramat ok will do
21:13 VanessaE paramat: I don't recall refusing the idea of a setting, myself, however a setting ought not be needed in the first place.
21:14 paramat it keeps everyone happy while avoiding a messy compromise (4)
21:14 VanessaE 4 is a messy compromise??
21:14 rubenwardy it adds complexity
21:14 sofar none of the options translate into code directly
21:15 nore paramat: yes, I'd like some explanation about that
21:15 VanessaE rubenwardy: not at all.  I've already done something like that before.
21:15 rubenwardy I support 4 - but it still adds complexity
21:15 nore it would be quite easy to do actually, and won't hurt performance as saplings use nodetimers now
21:15 VanessaE the bushes in plantlife use a single ABM to grow at different speeds depending whether they're on grass or hoed soil
21:16 sofar I'll probably have the code ready in a day, shrug
21:16 rubenwardy It isn't the complex if you ignore changing light levels
21:16 sofar I've spent more time on this poll :)
21:16 rubenwardy *as
21:16 sfan5 what would changing light levels have to do with it?
21:16 sofar rubenwardy: yes, changing light levels is something we'll have to work out somehow
21:17 sofar sfan5: planting at night
21:17 sfan5 dunno having trees only grow during the day seems fine
21:17 sfan5 also there's a function to return the day light level
21:18 sofar it's an edge case, I'll need to think about it for a bit
21:18 sofar ah! yes, of course there is
21:18 paramat well, i would be ok with 4 as long as there's a setting to keep current behaviour. also remember those who like the old behaviour want plants grown by torches to grow at normal speed
21:18 sofar I would make 2 settings, and then you can slide those all the way from wuzzy's nothing-grows-outside-sunlight to all the listed options
21:19 paramat so, esentially, my poll concern is that the inevitability of options and settings is not stated clearly in the first post, could you edit?
21:20 paramat otherwise people will vote differently
21:20 sofar I would however consider redoing saplings a bit to use the farming code internals so we don't have to do it twice
21:21 paramat (essentially)
21:21 paramat Anyway i'm a bit happier now, thank you
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21:30 hmmmm i think both of the polls are broken
21:31 hmmmm it could be better if users could rank their preferences
21:33 est31 preferential voting
21:33 est31 quite nice system
21:33 est31 should be used in US elections
21:34 sfan5 US elections have some other problems
21:34 Fixer i agree with hmmmm, it is difficult to choose one
21:34 Fixer thats why I posted my message with explanation of what I prefer in descending order
21:35 hmmmm i would prefer for this to be the default voting method
21:35 hmmmm and i don't agree that users should have no say
21:35 hmmmm this is supposed to be the for and by the community
21:35 VanessaE est31: actually preferential voting is used in Maine (for US president, no less)
21:36 est31 VanessaE: heard it, quite cool
21:36 nore est31: unfortunately, there's the Condorcet paradox
21:36 est31 now only 49 other states to follow :)
21:36 nore ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_paradox )
21:37 hmmmm if the users get told they have a voice, and then their voice gets ignored, what does that say about the devs?
21:37 nore hmmmm: that devs don't care about players
21:37 nore so the vote of users shouldn't be ignored
21:38 est31 where is the link
21:38 est31 to the poll
21:46 Krock est31, the one on the forum? https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=3&amp;t=16332
21:52 est31 thanks
22:09 rubenwardy #4966
22:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4966 -- Use tree to list mods rather than textlist by rubenwardy
22:10 juhdanad Another suggestion: let's add a sunlight-emitting node to the game! (I mentioned bioluminescent fungi earlier)
22:10 juhdanad This would allow totally different constructions.
22:11 juhdanad https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/com​mons/e/e8/PanellusStipticusAug12_2009.jpg
22:11 paramat light level 15? that causes light bugs
22:11 rubenwardy sun lamp
22:11 rubenwardy oops
22:11 rubenwardy mese lamp
22:12 juhdanad paramat: in the day light bank! The fungi follows the day-night cycle.
22:12 juhdanad (at least ingame)
22:13 paramat i think it's good to reserve 14 for growlamps suitable for growing plants, then 13 for bright lights not suitable as growlamps
22:14 paramat ah i see
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22:46 paramat joined #minetest-dev
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23:23 paramat game#1498
23:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1498 -- All 3 sands craft to sandstone, sandstone crafts to 1 sand type
23:31 Tmanyo joined #minetest-dev
23:43 Wayward_One #4992
23:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4992 -- Android build failure (undefined references)

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