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| 02:11 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: did you mean "Won't someone PLEASE think of the pull requests?!" :) |
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lhofhansl |
btw. I fixed over PRs, not 10 as Celeron55 stated a few days ago. Somehow sometimes lhofhansl yahoo.com is used, and sometimes it's larshapache.org, but it's both me. |
| 02:49 |
lhofhansl |
over 20 PRs that is. |
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| 04:56 |
Foz |
Does anyone know how to use the player:<name> inventory location? I am getting an error: 'The selected inventory location "player:Hal" doesn't exist' unless I am logged in as Hal. I read about minetest.get_inventory() but i'm not sure how to use that in a formspec list. |
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nrzkt |
hmmmm, i think about them, and i think... they will need to rebase, because this change is needed :( |
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sofar |
Foz: modding questions go in #minetest |
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| 06:56 |
nrzkt |
hi Zeno` |
| 06:59 |
Zeno` |
hi |
| 07:14 |
Zeno` |
nrzkt, I looked at your PR. So far I think it looks good |
| 07:17 |
nrzkt |
Zeno`, cool, i added a last commit to fix points mentioned by juhdanad points this morning |
| 07:18 |
lhofhansl |
#4990, continuation of #4895 |
| 07:18 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4990 -- Use std::vector instead of std::map in class ABMHandler, original by Rogier-5 by lhofhansl |
| 07:18 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4895 -- Use std::vector instead of std::map in class ABMHandler by Rogier-5 |
| 07:18 |
nrzkt |
lhofhansl, yes, i commented it this morning :) |
| 07:37 |
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| 07:39 |
Zeno` |
interesting PRs |
| 08:00 |
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| 10:54 |
Zeno` |
VanessaE and hmmmm have too but like Zeno they are not MTGame devs so they count as players. |
| 10:54 |
Zeno` |
lol |
| 10:54 |
Zeno` |
it's hilarious |
| 10:57 |
Zeno` |
Actually I'm tired of it. From this point on I think I have to not count paramat's up/down-voting on engine issues unless it's mapgen related |
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| 11:11 |
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| 11:14 |
juhdanad |
The map data is mostly unusable without the node definition manager. Should the map have a link to it? |
| 11:19 |
Zeno` |
Also, I don't think it's right to ignore the poll just because the results might not be want you want |
| 11:19 |
Zeno` |
the poll results are not exactly heading where I what them to head either, but I will accept them |
| 11:21 |
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| 11:22 |
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| 11:23 |
Zeno` |
juhdanad, what do you mean? |
| 11:23 |
Zeno` |
link where? |
| 11:25 |
juhdanad |
A member variable: INodeDefManager *nodedef in the Map, with a getter. |
| 11:25 |
Zeno` |
oh, perhaps |
| 11:26 |
Zeno` |
is this is relation to nrzkt's refactoring? |
| 11:26 |
juhdanad |
Since almost everything that works with nodes gets a Map and a nodedef as a parameter. |
| 11:26 |
Zeno` |
ah, I see. Yeah then without seeing code I'd probably agree |
| 11:27 |
juhdanad |
No, this is for #4346. Nerzhul asked me to move getPointedThing() to a class. |
| 11:27 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4346 -- Improved getPointedThing() by juhdanad |
| 11:27 |
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| 11:28 |
juhdanad |
And I would like to put it into ClientEnvironment, because to get a pointed thing you have to know the nodes and the entities on the world. |
| 11:28 |
Zeno` |
well off the top of my head I can't think of any major things wrong with your suggestion |
| 11:41 |
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| 11:44 |
sfan5 |
Foz: that's a feature |
| 11:45 |
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| 11:45 |
sfan5 |
i'm not even sure why we have the player:<name> thing since we also have current_player |
| 11:50 |
juhdanad |
What is the difference between Client and ClientEnvironment? |
| 11:53 |
nrzkt |
juhdanad: Client knows the network and Env. Env knows CAO & Map |
| 11:54 |
nrzkt |
juhdanad: the good question is: what is the difference between game & client |
| 11:54 |
nrzkt |
:p |
| 11:54 |
nrzkt |
client only interfaces Env, Network & Game |
| 11:55 |
juhdanad |
So Client is responsible for rendering, network and input, Environment is responsible for storing and processing all actual game data (voxels and entities). |
| 11:55 |
nrzkt |
rendering is done in Game if i remember, and in non class owned functions (beurk) |
| 11:55 |
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| 11:56 |
nrzkt |
environment is game itself yes, objects, map |
| 11:56 |
nrzkt |
Game is... something strange between client & irrlicht |
| 11:56 |
nrzkt |
i think game should be merged into client, because client seems to be appropriate for rendering |
| 11:57 |
juhdanad |
Will it be acceptable if I move getSelectedActiveObject() from Client to ClientEnvironment (since it is not graphics, but a simple raycast); and move getPointedThing() to ClientEnvironment, too? |
| 11:58 |
nrzkt |
where is it serverside ? in ServerEnv or in Server (similar functions) |
| 11:58 |
nrzkt |
if getSelectedActiveObject only involve CAO and not irrlicht that make sense |
| 11:58 |
nrzkt |
CAO&map |
| 11:58 |
nrzkt |
for getPointedThing() that make sense too |
| 11:58 |
juhdanad |
It is currently client only. I'm talking about #4346. |
| 11:58 |
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| 11:58 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4346 -- Improved getPointedThing() by juhdanad |
| 11:59 |
nrzkt |
oh there is Hud & CAO |
| 11:59 |
nrzkt |
and HUD is linked with game if i remember |
| 12:00 |
nrzkt |
who owns the Hud pointer ? Client or Game ? |
| 12:00 |
juhdanad |
Yes, the actual raycasting will go to ClientEnvironment, and updating the HUD to the Game. |
| 12:00 |
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| 12:00 |
nrzkt |
Game then, then client seems to be the more appropriated because he knows env & Game |
| 12:01 |
juhdanad |
Sorry, I don't understand that. |
| 12:01 |
nrzkt |
Client sorry :p |
| 12:01 |
nrzkt |
Replace first Game with client :p |
| 12:02 |
juhdanad |
Okay! |
| 12:02 |
juhdanad |
However, #4421 will abstract avay getPointedThing(), so you can use it on server, too. |
| 12:02 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4421 -- Expose getPointedThing() as RaycastState by juhdanad |
| 12:02 |
nrzkt |
i looked at getSelectedActiveObject who calls this function ? |
| 12:03 |
juhdanad |
Only getPointedThing(). |
| 12:03 |
nrzkt |
boxLineCollision is owned by something ? |
| 12:03 |
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| 12:04 |
juhdanad |
No, it is a math helper function that I wrote. |
| 12:04 |
nrzkt |
okay |
| 12:04 |
nrzkt |
getSelectedActiveObject is a pure ClientEnvironment function as i see |
| 12:04 |
nrzkt |
CAO & Env only are called |
| 12:04 |
juhdanad |
This is why I want to move it to ClientEnvironment. |
| 12:04 |
nrzkt |
perfect then, |
| 12:04 |
juhdanad |
I hope I will push soon. |
| 12:05 |
nrzkt |
take your time :) |
| 12:26 |
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| 13:31 |
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| 13:31 |
nrzkt |
sfan5 are you there ? |
| 13:38 |
nrzkt |
sfan5: #4991 |
| 13:38 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4991 -- Travis: Build server too for UNIX by nerzhul |
| 13:40 |
nrzkt |
travis doesn't build server on UNIX platforms, it's not good, sometimes we have little code parts which changes depending on client or server |
| 13:45 |
sfan5 |
hm could be useful |
| 13:46 |
sfan5 |
will look at it later |
| 13:49 |
nrzkt |
it just add -DENABLE_SERVER=1 to cmake line :) |
| 13:51 |
nrzkt |
i noticed this when sofar reports a compilation error and when fixing it i see travis is green, i'm green and ... ENABLE_SERVER=FALSE by default |
| 13:51 |
nrzkt |
i saw* |
| 13:52 |
nrzkt |
ENABLE_SERVER=true => compilation error, like sofar, unlike travis => ENABLE_SERVER=TRUE should be required by travis |
| 14:01 |
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| 14:08 |
nrzkt |
sfan5: build passes :) |
| 14:11 |
sfan5 |
nrzkt: seems good to me |
| 14:12 |
nrzkt |
okay, can i merge ? :) |
| 14:12 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 14:13 |
nrzkt |
done |
| 14:13 |
nrzkt |
we now properly test dedicated servers on travis :) |
| 14:13 |
nrzkt |
build* |
| 14:16 |
nrzkt |
Zeno`: for https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4990 is this an approval ? |
| 14:16 |
nrzkt |
except the commit author ? |
| 14:20 |
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| 14:31 |
Zeno` |
yes |
| 14:36 |
Zeno` |
it wasn't at the time, but I tested and reviewed more |
| 14:36 |
Zeno` |
so may as well take it as a yes |
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| 15:59 |
rubenwardy |
almost trivial PR for review: #4987 |
| 15:59 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4987 -- Expose and document chatcommands as minetest.registered_chatcommands by rubenwardy |
| 16:05 |
rubenwardy |
merging game#1483 in 10 minutes... |
| 16:05 |
nrzkt |
rubenwardy: why changing variable name expose it ? |
| 16:05 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1483 -- Add /killme chat command by rubenwardy |
| 16:06 |
nrzkt |
is there any harry potter magic ? |
| 16:06 |
rubenwardy |
nrzkt: to make it consistent with other tables |
| 16:06 |
rubenwardy |
it's currently undocumented so might as well not be exposed |
| 16:06 |
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| 16:11 |
rubenwardy |
actually, just noticed a problem in killme so won't merge |
| 16:15 |
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| 16:54 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, paramat seems to intend ignore the results of the poll: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1493 |
| 16:55 |
Zeno` |
also, your opinion as well as mine are basically to be ignored because we're just players: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1478 |
| 16:55 |
Zeno` |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1478 |
| 16:55 |
Zeno` |
oops |
| 16:55 |
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| 16:56 |
Zeno` |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1493#issuecomment-270269601 |
| 16:57 |
Zeno` |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1478#issuecomment-270251534 |
| 16:57 |
Zeno` |
I don't think he wants to listen to anybody |
| 16:58 |
rubenwardy |
there's more than enough MTG to overrule him on the basis of the poll results |
| 16:58 |
rubenwardy |
*MTG devs |
| 16:58 |
rubenwardy |
*active |
| 16:58 |
Zeno` |
rubenwardy, I'm not sure that's the point. He seems to want to ignore everyone |
| 16:59 |
hmmmm |
where is the forum poll? |
| 17:03 |
Zeno` |
you'd have to ask sofar |
| 17:04 |
Zeno` |
I really don't know what's going on. It's like he's a different person from a month ago |
| 17:04 |
sofar |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16332&sid=27006dd8fe24985b6ddeb5531a071f2e |
| 17:06 |
sofar |
I wanted to explore what the preferred default behavior should be, and get a good idea of what secondary behavior people want |
| 17:07 |
sofar |
I didn NOT want to explore "which kitchen sink sounds best for everyone" |
| 17:07 |
sofar |
we will end up with the kitchen sink anyway |
| 17:07 |
Zeno` |
"Players know how to use settings, leaving that out of the options alters the votes. |
| 17:07 |
Zeno` |
Refusing my requests will make this poll invalid and biased and i will take no notice of it and will encourage other devs to do the same. |
| 17:07 |
Zeno` |
I'm sorry to be a pain over this but this inherent bias is not acceptable." |
| 17:07 |
Zeno` |
what does that even mean? |
| 17:07 |
sofar |
but the default behavior will still be a fight |
| 17:08 |
hmmmm |
he's grasping at straws |
| 17:08 |
sofar |
the discussion hasn't gone productive in a while |
| 17:09 |
sofar |
the poll was an idea to get people to think constructively |
| 17:09 |
sofar |
"what do players want most" |
| 17:09 |
Zeno` |
isn't that what's most important/ |
| 17:09 |
Zeno` |
? |
| 17:09 |
sofar |
in the end what we're gonna make should cater to 95% of the players |
| 17:09 |
sofar |
even if they're split in 2 camps |
| 17:09 |
sofar |
or even 3 |
| 17:10 |
Zeno` |
If the players want not plants underground without the super-lamps, then I won't like it. But I'll accept it |
| 17:10 |
Zeno` |
I thought that was what a poll was for |
| 17:10 |
sofar |
yes, that's one of the points |
| 17:14 |
sofar |
what's good about the poll results is that most people clearly favor the two options that would be relatively easy to implement with only 1 config option |
| 17:14 |
hmmmm |
why not just add the config option choice |
| 17:14 |
sofar |
because that's the deciding factor for the PR |
| 17:15 |
sofar |
not for the question "what do people want" |
| 17:15 |
hmmmm |
i know it doesn't make a whole lot of sense given the context here, but we'll be making somebody else happy |
| 17:15 |
sofar |
poll ~= pull request |
| 17:15 |
sofar |
the poll is just a question |
| 17:15 |
sofar |
what gameplay do you want to end up with |
| 17:15 |
sofar |
not |
| 17:15 |
sofar |
what config option allowing multiple gameplay behaviors do you want to end up with |
| 17:16 |
sofar |
the latter is wholly unanswerable without a thesis length explanation |
| 17:16 |
sofar |
of each possibility |
| 17:16 |
hmmmm |
i mean i get the reasoning |
| 17:17 |
hmmmm |
the config option could be to choose between the two most popular end behaviors in the poll |
| 17:17 |
sofar |
that's my intent |
| 17:17 |
sofar |
if at all possible, of course |
| 17:17 |
hmmmm |
you could reduce conflict here by conceding and doing something that doesn't necessarily make a whole lot of sense though |
| 17:17 |
sofar |
but I think it will be |
| 17:31 |
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| 17:32 |
Zeno` |
it's a game. As long as something is not so unrealistic that's it's dumb then *shrug* |
| 17:32 |
Zeno` |
I doubt anyone wants to play "world of real life" |
| 17:34 |
Zeno` |
where you sit in an office all day doing mindless and mind numbing stuff |
| 17:34 |
Zeno` |
go do the shopping |
| 17:34 |
Zeno` |
vacuum the carpets |
| 17:35 |
Zeno` |
do the dishes, wash the car... I suppose it could be a subgame |
| 17:36 |
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| 17:37 |
rdococ |
sounds like that would be the work of a specialised server |
| 17:37 |
Zeno` |
yeah, it'd be fun! |
| 17:37 |
rdococ |
a singleplayer "world of real life" makes no sense - eg who would have built the offices, shops, vacuum cleaners, carpets, dishes or cars? |
| 17:38 |
rdococ |
in a way it's just a boring city roleplay |
| 17:38 |
hmmmm |
the germans love real life simulators |
| 17:38 |
hmmmm |
there's this company that makes nothing but X Simulator <current year> for every possible profession |
| 17:38 |
hmmmm |
Farm Simulator 2016 |
| 17:38 |
rdococ |
idk I've seen some german simulators and it'd be more realistic to call them assimilators... |
| 17:38 |
hmmmm |
Office Simulator 2016 |
| 17:38 |
sfan5 |
don't forget Truck Simulator |
| 17:39 |
hmmmm |
yup |
| 17:39 |
Zeno` |
bbiab, hanging out the washing to dry for a bonus 1000 points |
| 17:40 |
rdococ |
you'd also need customers |
| 17:44 |
Zeno` |
err actually. Watching some of the players on mutiplayer servers they might like this |
| 17:44 |
Zeno` |
forget I said anything lol |
| 17:45 |
rdococ |
whadya mean? :p |
| 17:48 |
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| 17:51 |
juhdanad |
est31, are you here? |
| 18:10 |
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| 18:10 |
est31 |
juhdanad: yes? |
| 18:11 |
juhdanad |
Could you remove 'changes requested' status from #4346, please? I have corrected everything you asked. |
| 18:12 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4346 -- Improved getPointedThing() by juhdanad |
| 18:12 |
rubenwardy |
almost trivial PR for review: #4987 |
| 18:12 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4987 -- Expose and document chatcommands as minetest.registered_chatcommands by rubenwardy |
| 18:15 |
est31 |
juhdanad: done |
| 18:15 |
juhdanad |
Thank you! |
| 18:16 |
juhdanad |
Then the PR has 3 approvals! |
| 18:16 |
est31 |
thanks for the pr :) |
| 18:17 |
est31 |
lets merge it |
| 18:17 |
juhdanad |
But #4985 will be harder to rebase then! |
| 18:17 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4985 -- Environment & IGameDef code refactoring by nerzhul |
| 18:17 |
juhdanad |
I think I have more time to rebase my own. |
| 18:17 |
juhdanad |
So I can wait. |
| 18:18 |
est31 |
well this one is actually improving something |
| 18:19 |
juhdanad |
Of course I don't forbid merging, just wanted not to steal time from nerzhul. |
| 18:20 |
juhdanad |
Thanks for merge! #4027 and #3511 now can be closed. |
| 18:21 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4027 -- Make getPointedThing faster by gregorycu |
| 18:21 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3511 -- Setting an item's range high results in poor performance |
| 18:23 |
Krock |
R.I.P getPointedThing improvements by greg |
| 18:25 |
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| 19:28 |
rdococ |
solar eclipses |
| 19:30 |
rdococ |
is there a way to directly reposition the sun and moon? |
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| 20:16 |
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| 20:19 |
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| 20:22 |
paramat |
hmmmm and all, i have responded to things said on IRC here onwards, please read https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1478#issuecomment-270471414 |
| 20:23 |
paramat |
i've been absent from IRC recently due to 2 weeks of aggressive behaviour towards me from zeno, i find IRC makes me anxious at the best of times |
| 20:25 |
paramat |
i've patiently explained the light issues to zeno multiple times but he bizarrely continues to get many facts wrong, i'm actually concerned about him |
| 20:27 |
paramat |
anyway, it's ok, we all get fed up with other devs sometimes, i had a problem with RBA sometimes |
| 20:27 |
paramat |
zeno is still one of my favourite devs, lovely person |
| 20:28 |
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| 20:28 |
paramat |
everyone is allowed to go nuts sometimes, i have several times :] |
| 20:30 |
VanessaE |
paramat: just my opinion, but what you're doing is bullshit. |
| 20:30 |
VanessaE |
comments on IRC need replies ON IRC. |
| 20:31 |
paramat |
i have chronic anxiety and am slow on IRC, i can think clearer when replying in a post |
| 20:31 |
VanessaE |
no offense, and you know I respect you, but that's just not going to fly. |
| 20:32 |
paramat |
well then you're being unreasonable and insensitive |
| 20:32 |
VanessaE |
I don't mean to be insensitive, but this fighting between you and zeno and others has GOT to stop |
| 20:32 |
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| 20:32 |
VanessaE |
and that's not going to happen if you keep splitting up the conversation between here and github issues |
| 20:33 |
paramat |
cool it, we can comment whereever we want |
| 20:33 |
VanessaE |
... |
| 20:35 |
VanessaE |
in any case, you spelled out the whole problem with "Your opinion does count, to me too, but you have no dev authority in MTG." |
| 20:36 |
sfan5 |
merging #4990 soon (>=2 approvals) |
| 20:36 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4990 -- Use std::vector instead of std::map in class ABMHandler, original by Rogier-5 by lhofhansl |
| 20:36 |
VanessaE |
engine devs should have dev authority over _game also, as long as the two remain "connected" in players' minds. |
| 20:36 |
Shara |
To many players, minetest_game IS minetest. |
| 20:36 |
VanessaE |
precisely. |
| 20:37 |
VanessaE |
it does NOT matter whether there are other subgames |
| 20:37 |
sfan5 |
the seperation is there for a reason |
| 20:37 |
VanessaE |
the standard game IS minetest_game. |
| 20:37 |
VanessaE |
nearly every mod written for this project is written for that subgame |
| 20:38 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: noone's saying there shouldn't be a separation |
| 20:38 |
sfan5 |
merged |
| 20:38 |
rubenwardy |
Merging #4987 in 15 minutes |
| 20:38 |
sfan5 |
i'm talking about the seperation of dev authorities |
| 20:38 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4987 -- Expose and document chatcommands as minetest.registered_chatcommands by rubenwardy |
| 20:38 |
VanessaE |
the point is that in everyone's minds, save for a couple of people here, the two pieces go together. |
| 20:38 |
rubenwardy |
Game design is different to software design |
| 20:38 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: that's fine too, but look what it's causing. |
| 20:39 |
paramat |
a github post allows me to think at my own speed and format quotes and replies, that would be much more difficult for me on IRC, especially at the moment. so please do not have a go at me over where i choose to communicate |
| 20:40 |
paramat |
it's a non-issue, not even worth mentioning |
| 20:40 |
VanessaE |
I'm not "having a go" at you, paramat. |
| 20:43 |
asl97 |
sfan5: so much for the whole 'flagging pr as merged', also, the functions are place between getNodeNoCheck and setNodeNoCheck. not a big issue but meh |
| 20:43 |
VanessaE |
I'm just pissed off at what's generally going on around here. everyone's doing shit that someone else hates and no one seems to want to work together to sort things out. it's only focused on you because right now, you've been committing like 90% of what goes into mt_game |
| 20:44 |
nore |
paramat: just stop being paranoid. people *know* that there will be an option or in the worst case it will be possible to change the behaviour by mods |
| 20:44 |
nore |
so just calm down please |
| 20:44 |
rubenwardy |
https://xkcd.com/1172/ |
| 20:44 |
rubenwardy |
!title |
| 20:44 |
ShadowBot |
xkcd: Workflow |
| 20:44 |
paramat |
it's not that bad, you're being overly negative, dev has been going very wel recently, with some good new devs joining |
| 20:44 |
nore |
rubenwardy: :) |
| 20:45 |
paramat |
(well) |
| 20:45 |
paramat |
nore if i'm a little wound up it's due to 2 weeks of attacks from someone |
| 20:45 |
paramat |
plus an unfair poll with my request refused |
| 20:46 |
nore |
paramat: I can't say whether you have been attacked as you say, but the poll is *not* unfair |
| 20:46 |
paramat |
i have suggested a setting so that eveyone is happy, lets do that |
| 20:46 |
nore |
moreover, the poll has been changed to remove the mention of mods |
| 20:46 |
nore |
and as I say, it is known it will be configurable |
| 20:47 |
paramat |
if my preferred option is refused inclusion that's unfair |
| 20:47 |
paramat |
your option request was accepted |
| 20:48 |
nore |
paramat: your preferred option is *exactly* the same as the first, only that it explicits the fact that there will be a setting |
| 20:48 |
paramat |
th esetting need to be mentioned otherwise option 1 looks less appealing |
| 20:48 |
paramat |
(needs) |
| 20:48 |
nore |
and voters already know that it will be possible to have it configured anyway because we won't merged something that can't |
| 20:48 |
Shara |
Regardless of whether specific options are included or whether the highest voted option is selected, the poll shows a lot of people do not like the current behaviour. |
| 20:49 |
nore |
paramat: regardless of that, people will vote for their preferred option |
| 20:49 |
nore |
which is not the current behaviour, as Shara pointed |
| 20:50 |
Shara |
It also shows absolutely no one wants option 3. |
| 20:50 |
Shara |
So there 'is' some valid data there, regardless of how you choose to use it. |
| 20:50 |
nore |
exactly |
| 20:51 |
paramat |
yes, it's loosely representative |
| 20:51 |
rubenwardy |
I think that the poll should mention it will be easily changable, especially for the forum one |
| 20:52 |
paramat |
apart from forcing every MT player by law to vote there's no better way unfortunately |
| 20:52 |
paramat |
i don't believe in player democracy though, it's best devs listen but take the final decision |
| 20:53 |
sfan5 |
of course |
| 20:53 |
sfan5 |
the poll is not going to approve any PRs |
| 20:53 |
sfan5 |
but it should be strongly considered by the devs |
| 20:54 |
paramat |
agreed |
| 20:54 |
VanessaE |
extremely strongly - you don't maintain a userbase by ignoring what the users want (well, with exceptions) |
| 20:55 |
nore |
paramat: whatever happens, it looks like the poll and the vote by devs it in favour of option 4, which has a lot less downvotes as the others |
| 20:55 |
nore |
of course, we should wait until the voting delay expires |
| 20:56 |
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| 20:56 |
nore |
but what I am saying is that 4 seems a good compromise to almost everyone (you are the only dev who opposed it) |
| 20:56 |
rubenwardy |
merging... |
| 20:57 |
paramat |
a setting would allow the choice between sensible current behaviour and old behaviour, without a messy compromise |
| 20:57 |
sofar |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1493#issuecomment-270484317 |
| 20:58 |
Shara |
paramat: please correct me if I am wrong, but would old behaviour have been option 3 (or close to it)? |
| 20:58 |
paramat |
correct |
| 20:58 |
Shara |
People don't want option 3. |
| 20:58 |
paramat |
that's what zeno, hmmmm and others want |
| 20:59 |
Shara |
Look at the poll votes. |
| 20:59 |
Shara |
They want the middle ground. |
| 20:59 |
paramat |
although it's inconsistent yes |
| 20:59 |
paramat |
my suggestion is a settable light level for all plants |
| 20:59 |
sfan5 |
that's debatable |
| 21:00 |
paramat |
my suggetion is simple and keeps current behaviour default |
| 21:00 |
Fixer |
don't rush with it and it will probably work out right? |
| 21:01 |
sfan5 |
paramat: few people want current behaviour to be default |
| 21:01 |
paramat |
nope, only a few people have made a fuss |
| 21:01 |
sfan5 |
wut |
| 21:01 |
sfan5 |
just look at the poll votes |
| 21:01 |
VanessaE |
... |
| 21:01 |
nore |
paramat: just look at the results of *both* polls |
| 21:01 |
paramat |
how about the thousands who are queitly content? |
| 21:02 |
paramat |
(quietly) |
| 21:02 |
Fixer |
i had no problems with getting mese lamps tbh, and after recipe change lamps should be easy to obtain |
| 21:02 |
asl97 |
there are thousands of user? |
| 21:02 |
sfan5 |
paramat: you mean the people that haven't voiced their concerns? |
| 21:02 |
Fixer |
we can leave everything as it is, with lamps required to grow stuff underground |
| 21:02 |
VanessaE |
if those thousands want their opinions heard, they can vote or otherwise speak up. |
| 21:02 |
paramat |
the poll shows option 1 has almost as much support as the others |
| 21:03 |
sfan5 |
you can't go and assume peoples opinion |
| 21:03 |
sfan5 |
"almost" is quite a strech |
| 21:03 |
Shara |
Could also assume many people are not happy with current behaviour and didn't hear about this. |
| 21:03 |
paramat |
it's the 2nd most popular after 4 |
| 21:04 |
paramat |
first choices: 4 has 10, 1 has 7 |
| 21:04 |
Fixer |
i've heared complaint from zeno, hmm-mmmm-m, maikerumine about that, but I was fine with it and didn't heared much else |
| 21:04 |
sfan5 |
why does the second most popular matter? |
| 21:04 |
nore |
paramat: yes, but look at downvotes |
| 21:04 |
paramat |
the thumbs up/down is confusing |
| 21:04 |
nore |
4 has 5, 1 has 12 |
| 21:05 |
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| 21:05 |
paramat |
well the up/down votes make deciding the vote difficult |
| 21:05 |
sfan5 |
you could add those up |
| 21:05 |
sofar |
http://i.imgur.com/zVZmc42.png |
| 21:05 |
sfan5 |
the emoticon vote option is what makes it difficult |
| 21:05 |
paramat |
does an up/down vote count as much as a first choice what's the weighting? it's a mess |
| 21:06 |
sfan5 |
i guess the "first choice" vote can be counted like a normal one and could be used to decide when a tire occurrs |
| 21:06 |
sofar |
there are two ways to read the poll data |
| 21:06 |
sofar |
1) look at which is preferred |
| 21:06 |
sofar |
2) look at which is disliked the least |
| 21:06 |
sofar |
the default behavior we implement should be least disliked |
| 21:07 |
sofar |
and possibly also most preferred |
| 21:07 |
paramat |
problem is we will now argue how to weight the different emotivores :] |
| 21:07 |
paramat |
(emotivotes) |
| 21:07 |
sofar |
so if you disregard the thumbs ups ("I like this and would settle for it") |
| 21:07 |
sofar |
and instead focus on smileys ("This is how I'd like to play the best") |
| 21:08 |
sofar |
and keep in mind the thumbs downs |
| 21:08 |
sofar |
I think the poll results are fairly clear |
| 21:08 |
sofar |
most agreable people will be OK with almost all options |
| 21:08 |
sofar |
and that's shown in the thumbs ups |
| 21:08 |
sofar |
but we shouldn't decide default behavior based on that |
| 21:09 |
sofar |
so, all in all, there's a ton of good data in the poll results, already |
| 21:09 |
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| 21:10 |
sofar |
it also shows me that people want underground growing to be possible, but harder |
| 21:10 |
sofar |
only 1/4 players object to it being harder |
| 21:10 |
VanessaE |
I've got a really nice underground orchard on my creative server. built before all this shit happened. |
| 21:10 |
sofar |
s/players/voters |
| 21:10 |
rubenwardy |
it also shows me that people want underground growing to be possible with torches, but harder |
| 21:10 |
sofar |
rubenwardy: yes |
| 21:10 |
VanessaE |
sofar: unterminated 's' command :P |
| 21:11 |
sofar |
VanessaE: shopt +s pedantic |
| 21:11 |
paramat |
a straight adding up gives 4 in lead with 1 and 4 tieing 2nd |
| 21:11 |
sofar |
adding isn't the right way |
| 21:12 |
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| 21:12 |
sofar |
the forum poll is the same voters pretty much anyway |
| 21:12 |
paramat |
Vanessa my suggestion will give you a setting to choose required light level |
| 21:12 |
VanessaE |
the right way is instant run-off if you must do anything besides taking one option as "most preferred" right out of the gate. |
| 21:12 |
paramat |
but this option is being refused |
| 21:12 |
paramat |
from the poll |
| 21:13 |
sofar |
I've explained why |
| 21:13 |
paramat |
i know .. |
| 21:13 |
sofar |
please read my last comment on the github thread |
| 21:13 |
paramat |
ok will do |
| 21:13 |
VanessaE |
paramat: I don't recall refusing the idea of a setting, myself, however a setting ought not be needed in the first place. |
| 21:14 |
paramat |
it keeps everyone happy while avoiding a messy compromise (4) |
| 21:14 |
VanessaE |
4 is a messy compromise?? |
| 21:14 |
rubenwardy |
it adds complexity |
| 21:14 |
sofar |
none of the options translate into code directly |
| 21:15 |
nore |
paramat: yes, I'd like some explanation about that |
| 21:15 |
VanessaE |
rubenwardy: not at all. I've already done something like that before. |
| 21:15 |
rubenwardy |
I support 4 - but it still adds complexity |
| 21:15 |
nore |
it would be quite easy to do actually, and won't hurt performance as saplings use nodetimers now |
| 21:15 |
VanessaE |
the bushes in plantlife use a single ABM to grow at different speeds depending whether they're on grass or hoed soil |
| 21:16 |
sofar |
I'll probably have the code ready in a day, shrug |
| 21:16 |
rubenwardy |
It isn't the complex if you ignore changing light levels |
| 21:16 |
sofar |
I've spent more time on this poll :) |
| 21:16 |
rubenwardy |
*as |
| 21:16 |
sfan5 |
what would changing light levels have to do with it? |
| 21:16 |
sofar |
rubenwardy: yes, changing light levels is something we'll have to work out somehow |
| 21:17 |
sofar |
sfan5: planting at night |
| 21:17 |
sfan5 |
dunno having trees only grow during the day seems fine |
| 21:17 |
sfan5 |
also there's a function to return the day light level |
| 21:18 |
sofar |
it's an edge case, I'll need to think about it for a bit |
| 21:18 |
sofar |
ah! yes, of course there is |
| 21:18 |
paramat |
well, i would be ok with 4 as long as there's a setting to keep current behaviour. also remember those who like the old behaviour want plants grown by torches to grow at normal speed |
| 21:18 |
sofar |
I would make 2 settings, and then you can slide those all the way from wuzzy's nothing-grows-outside-sunlight to all the listed options |
| 21:19 |
paramat |
so, esentially, my poll concern is that the inevitability of options and settings is not stated clearly in the first post, could you edit? |
| 21:20 |
paramat |
otherwise people will vote differently |
| 21:20 |
sofar |
I would however consider redoing saplings a bit to use the farming code internals so we don't have to do it twice |
| 21:21 |
paramat |
(essentially) |
| 21:21 |
paramat |
Anyway i'm a bit happier now, thank you |
| 21:23 |
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| 21:30 |
hmmmm |
i think both of the polls are broken |
| 21:31 |
hmmmm |
it could be better if users could rank their preferences |
| 21:33 |
est31 |
preferential voting |
| 21:33 |
est31 |
quite nice system |
| 21:33 |
est31 |
should be used in US elections |
| 21:34 |
sfan5 |
US elections have some other problems |
| 21:34 |
Fixer |
i agree with hmmmm, it is difficult to choose one |
| 21:34 |
Fixer |
thats why I posted my message with explanation of what I prefer in descending order |
| 21:35 |
hmmmm |
i would prefer for this to be the default voting method |
| 21:35 |
hmmmm |
and i don't agree that users should have no say |
| 21:35 |
hmmmm |
this is supposed to be the for and by the community |
| 21:35 |
VanessaE |
est31: actually preferential voting is used in Maine (for US president, no less) |
| 21:36 |
est31 |
VanessaE: heard it, quite cool |
| 21:36 |
nore |
est31: unfortunately, there's the Condorcet paradox |
| 21:36 |
est31 |
now only 49 other states to follow :) |
| 21:36 |
nore |
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_paradox ) |
| 21:37 |
hmmmm |
if the users get told they have a voice, and then their voice gets ignored, what does that say about the devs? |
| 21:37 |
nore |
hmmmm: that devs don't care about players |
| 21:37 |
nore |
so the vote of users shouldn't be ignored |
| 21:38 |
est31 |
where is the link |
| 21:38 |
est31 |
to the poll |
| 21:46 |
Krock |
est31, the one on the forum? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16332 |
| 21:52 |
est31 |
thanks |
| 22:09 |
rubenwardy |
#4966 |
| 22:09 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4966 -- Use tree to list mods rather than textlist by rubenwardy |
| 22:10 |
juhdanad |
Another suggestion: let's add a sunlight-emitting node to the game! (I mentioned bioluminescent fungi earlier) |
| 22:10 |
juhdanad |
This would allow totally different constructions. |
| 22:11 |
juhdanad |
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/PanellusStipticusAug12_2009.jpg |
| 22:11 |
paramat |
light level 15? that causes light bugs |
| 22:11 |
rubenwardy |
sun lamp |
| 22:11 |
rubenwardy |
oops |
| 22:11 |
rubenwardy |
mese lamp |
| 22:12 |
juhdanad |
paramat: in the day light bank! The fungi follows the day-night cycle. |
| 22:12 |
juhdanad |
(at least ingame) |
| 22:13 |
paramat |
i think it's good to reserve 14 for growlamps suitable for growing plants, then 13 for bright lights not suitable as growlamps |
| 22:14 |
paramat |
ah i see |
| 22:17 |
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| 22:31 |
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| 22:46 |
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| 22:53 |
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| 23:23 |
paramat |
game#1498 |
| 23:23 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1498 -- All 3 sands craft to sandstone, sandstone crafts to 1 sand type |
| 23:31 |
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| 23:43 |
Wayward_One |
#4992 |
| 23:43 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4992 -- Android build failure (undefined references) |
