Time Nick Message 00:07 rubenwardy What is the point of particles.cpp/h? Why wasn't Irrlicht's particle system used with an affector to add collision? 00:07 rubenwardy particles.cpp/h has no batching 00:07 rubenwardy it draws every single particle as a separate scene node 00:08 paramat yeah others have said our particles are not optimal 00:09 rubenwardy just found #2587 00:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2587 -- wip irrlicht particles 2 by obneq 00:49 rubenwardy I'm currently on commit 6/17 of #2587 00:49 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2587 -- wip irrlicht particles 2 by obneq 00:49 rubenwardy man this is painful to rebase 01:25 rubenwardy rebased #2587, however there are compile errors due to things changing since (which rebase didn't pick up on) https://github.com/rubenwardy/minetest/commits/irrlicht-particles-2 01:25 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2587 -- wip irrlicht particles 2 by obneq 02:30 hmmmm hey guys 02:30 est31 hi 02:30 hmmmm est, you were a reviewer of 52ba1f8 02:31 hmmmm do you think it should've been merged with your approval alone? 02:31 hmmmm 4978 02:32 hmmmm could've sworn it was you, in fact, who said that changes to the network or lua api should require at least 2 approvals 02:37 est31 hmmmm: there was approval by nrz 02:37 hmmmm nrz was the author though 02:37 est31 I've read through the code very closely 02:38 est31 but yeah, maybe something subtle messed up 02:38 hmmmm and you thought https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/52ba1f867e5edb579a59a44fbb8286d4f1e54931#diff-da1e28445fc732755d2b64683bd94ee4R966 was okay? 02:38 est31 still, letting it rot in the queue is not a way to find out 02:38 est31 I've seen the line but thought it was okay 02:39 hmmmm that's like a disaster 02:39 hmmmm how does that not scream "this code has issues with organization" to you? 02:39 est31 unknown has content features too, doesn't it? 02:39 est31 and ignore 02:39 hmmmm yes, it does 02:40 hmmmm bug free is just a starting point for quality though 02:41 est31 what are the organisation problems in your eyes? 02:41 hmmmm if you're doing crazy casts like that, you know something's wrong 02:41 hmmmm why does a PlayerSAO object need to know about the server? 02:42 hmmmm should the PlayerSAO object really be the one sending packets? 02:46 est31 mhh dunno 02:46 est31 probably it would be better to raise such concerns while PRs are still open 02:47 est31 or if they are merged, propose to change it via another PR 02:48 hmmmm i didn't even see this 02:51 hmmmm see, according to the PR it was opened 2 days ago and merged one day ago 06:43 Zeno` time to fork minetest_game I guess 06:44 VanessaE fix it, don't fork it. 06:45 Zeno` things are being merged now without regard for what coredevs think 06:45 Zeno` also, we are not allowed to commit to minetest_game otherwise I'd just revert the silly commits 06:46 Zeno` paramat is still twisting words insisting that saplings have NEVER been able to be grown underground 06:52 nrzkt i will merge #4975 in some minutes 06:52 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4975 -- Pull occlusion check out of loop, and minor code cleanups. by lhofhansl 06:57 Zeno` which brings me to another matter 06:58 Zeno` I don't think that we (coredevs) should be able to commit to minetest_game necessarily. But why do our downvotes not count (in paramats words)????? 06:59 * VanessaE grumbles 07:00 Zeno` paramats response to hmmmm opposing a MTG issue: "Hmmmm is not a game dev." 07:00 Zeno` isn't there something wrong when coredevs don't count? 07:01 sofar I don't agree, and I like the separation tbh 07:01 Zeno` sofar, I'm not saying we should be able to commit (we can anyway) 07:01 hmmmm really? 07:02 Zeno` But why don't our opinions count? 07:02 sofar well that's not the case in my mind 07:02 VanessaE any core dev should have an equal vote in mt_game 07:02 sofar VanessaE: that I disagree with 07:02 Zeno` well, we seem to have a problem 07:02 hmmmm okay 07:02 VanessaE like it or not, that's the MT standard game content. it HAS to work right! 07:02 hmmmm now hold on 07:02 hmmmm wait for the majority of mtgame devs to oppose something paramat wants 07:03 hmmmm and then us core devs will be for it 07:03 hmmmm magically the 'rules' will change 07:03 VanessaE sofar: well, I'm no core dev anyway so my vote doesn't count :P 07:03 hmmmm come on man 07:03 hmmmm this is politics plain and simple 07:03 hmmmm people don't want to play politics when they do mt 07:04 Zeno` well, in that case mt_game devs should have no say in engine issue 07:04 sofar I don't like this rule bending for sure 07:04 hmmmm no, this is enforcing a completely made up rule when it benefits their case 07:04 nrzkt don't forget whereas we don't provide mt_game with engine in desktops we do it on Android 07:04 hmmmm in any case 07:05 hmmmm what i personally think is that a lot more people should have say in mtgame 07:05 hmmmm not just core devs in addition to mtgame devs (did not know there was a split in the first place...) but people like vanessae should be allowed a vote as well 07:05 sofar well, mtg should be run by folks who have a large interest in modding and making a base game 07:05 hmmmm and i'm sure there are other contributors who are deeply involved with the project yet not core devs for whatever reasons 07:06 sofar so imho VanessaE's voice counts heavy (to me it does, anyway) 07:06 hmmmm absolutely 07:06 sofar anyone who has written lots of mods will get their voices listened to by me 07:06 hmmmm a lot of people who aren't core devs have voices that matter to me, and vice versa 07:06 sofar e.g. stujones 07:06 hmmmm i think what mostly matters is how informed their opinion is 07:07 hmmmm it's just that a fast and easy cutoff is core dev status 07:07 Zeno` even nore objected to 1476 and it was ignored until sofar said he agreed with hmmmm 07:07 Zeno` is nore no longer a game dev? 07:07 hmmmm what is 1476? 07:07 hmmmm #1476 07:07 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1476 -- Windows Cross compile script fails to copy required dlls 07:07 Zeno` https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1476 07:07 hmmmm ahh 07:08 hmmmm oh that one 07:08 Zeno` "Ok i just saw that sofar no longer wants to reduce these light levels, so this PR probably won't go ahead, " 07:09 Zeno` and all of a sudden the issue was abandoned 07:09 Zeno` weird 07:10 hmmmm if you read the PR paramat said that sofar originally proposed 1476 07:10 hmmmm so without sofar's support logically it'd be abandoned 07:10 Zeno` I realise that much :) 07:10 hmmmm i don't think it's a matter of respecting one person's opinion more or less than another's 07:11 Zeno` it doesn't matter. I'm over it 07:11 hmmmm just the principle backer of it pulled out 07:11 nrzkt maybe having a new group on the organization for mt_game voters could be good, celeron55 ^ 07:11 Zeno` if we have no say in the direction of mt_game then what's the point? 07:11 hmmmm right like i said 07:12 Zeno` no wonder I find it difficult to motivate myself again for minetest 07:12 hmmmm the point of having core devs only have the power to vote on issues is to serve as a proxy for allowing informed opinions in, only 07:12 hmmmm having minetest game devs only have the power to vote on minetest game issues is divisive for no real reason 07:12 hmmmm presumably everybody who develops the core only do have informed opinions... or at least i'd hope 07:13 sofar this is why I started to think about an entirely new subgame a while back 07:14 sofar running a subgame (mtg, to me, is a subgame anyway) with too many cooks... 07:14 sofar this is why I'm not opposed to having *less* voters for mtg 07:14 hmmmm this is also why i would've preferred for changes to mt_game stay conservative if at all 07:14 hmmmm it's meant to be a starting point 07:15 minetester non-dev, random player: sofar's issue is most worrying to me, everyone pulling mtg in random directions (mesecons, machinery, etc.). More subgames would be fine as long as mtg doesnt miss out on things completely 07:16 sofar me joining has certainly pushed mtg into a new style already... 07:16 sofar I'm afk, bedtime 11:23 Zeno` lordfingle> Hey! Has anyone noticed that 0.4.15 is now generating dungeons over the top of previously generated terrain? 11:24 nrzkt oh great ! 11:24 Zeno` yeah. There was a very large commit that changed dungeons 11:24 Zeno` I wonder if that caused the issue 11:26 Zeno` we had this once before just before 0.4.13 was released 11:26 Zeno` fortunately it was caught pretty quick that time 11:28 Zeno` (it was cave related, but much the same thing) 12:26 juhdanad Hi! I would be very thankful if you could review #4346. It has been waiting to be merged for five months... 12:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4346 -- Improved getPointedThing() by juhdanad 12:44 rubenwardy RE: mtgame dev discussion - the point of the split is to "problems with the development like before": http://dev.minetest.net/Minetest_Game_development 13:07 sfan5 any reason why chat doesn't support background colors 13:09 Calinou background colors can be pretty intrusive, but it'd be nice to have *if it supported alpha* 13:09 Calinou I see uses for a transparent red background for critical messages 13:09 Calinou but not opaque blue and yellow text :) 13:09 rubenwardy Do you mean like this 13:10 Calinou I think color codes are stripped in this channel 13:10 rubenwardy lol 13:39 Preuk hi, didnt touch mt for a while, forgot some thingies about register_abm 13:40 Preuk specificaly, action parameters for abm; any pointers? (nothing in dev wiki nor lua_api about what these count parameters are) 13:48 sfan5 Preuk: active_object_count = 13:49 sfan5 active_object_count_wider = 13:49 sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/environment.cpp#L838 15:32 Zeno` celeron55, perhaps you should look into the dissatisfaction with MTG 15:32 Zeno` and how it's managed 15:32 Zeno` a huge amount of people are upset (rightly so, IMO) 15:33 rubenwardy FWIW, I agree that coredevs that are not MTG devs should still have a say in MTG 15:34 nrzkt revolution ! caramba 15:34 Zeno` our hands are tied. Most of the time we don't care what happens in MTG, but when something comes up that is very controversial we're basically ignored 15:34 Zeno` and it seems that most modders and server ops are pissed off as well 15:35 Zeno` this is a most unfortunate situation 15:35 An0n3m0us heh 15:36 celeron55 it's not the most unfortunate situation 15:36 celeron55 not even "a" 15:36 Zeno` it is when nobody is happy :( 15:37 celeron55 that's been the case before too with mtg 15:37 Zeno` c55, so why are we (core engine devs) basically ignored? 15:38 Zeno` (e.g. hmmmm is not a mtg dev so his opinion doesn't matter) 15:38 Zeno` for that matter, why are all the server ops and modders ignored? 15:39 Zeno` because that seems, to me, to be the case at this point in time 15:39 celeron55 do you know the history of mtg? 15:39 Zeno` only roughly 15:39 rubenwardy are we talking specifically about torches/sapling, or are there other issues as well? 15:40 Zeno` there are other issues as well 15:40 Zeno` as discussed last night I believe in -project 15:40 celeron55 we tried to stop development of mtg and replace it with other subgames but then people just continued mtg under different names like minetest next or whatever 15:40 Zeno` well, stopping mtg dev would not be a good idea I don't think 15:40 celeron55 so it seemed there was no point in even trying and the ones developing minetest_next or whatever were put in charge of mtg 15:40 celeron55 and that's the current situation 15:41 Zeno` tough place to be in 15:41 celeron55 i think mtg should listen to server ops and modders though 15:41 Zeno` I dunno the solution 15:41 Zeno` I just think that we are not listened to 15:42 rubenwardy I try to listen to server ops and modders, but they don't seem to comment unless it's very controversial 15:42 rubenwardy I think there needs to be a vote to decide about torches/saplings/balance amongst core devs and servers owners 15:46 An0n3m0us yea 15:46 rubenwardy I personally don't care that much currently - there's no risk to being above ground (no mobs) so the only thing it does is make deep mining harder when it comes to getting wood 15:46 Zeno` but even those very controversial things seem to be almost disregarded 15:47 Zeno` I dunno 15:48 Zeno` basically breaking underground farms and forests is IMO a bad idea 15:48 Zeno` and it seems like a lot of people agree 15:48 Zeno` of the 10+ servers I have visisted in the last week 9 of them had these 15:49 Zeno` yes, maybe it was an oversight allowing saplings etc to be grown underground 15:49 Zeno` but it's been used for so long now it's a feature 15:49 Zeno` so "fixing" it is... well weird 15:50 Zeno` some of the creations I've seen would have taken weeks or months to build 15:50 Zeno` it's obvious players want it 15:55 sfan5 Zeno`: can you provide a list of all the thing you feel are wanted by players but not in mtg? 15:59 Zeno` it's all in #minetest-project log 16:00 Zeno` it's more things that people don't want actually heheh 16:01 Preuk sfan5: yep, but nothing about what "objects" it's about; is it just to alter abm depending on how "crowded" a mapblock is? 16:02 sfan5 Preuk: what counts as "object" is defined in the docs, i don't know why ABMs might need those parameters 16:02 sfan5 Zeno`: i wanted a list because i didn't want to hunt for it in some irc logs... 16:03 Preuk sfan5: ok so it's as literal as it seems... thanks, i'll try to find some use cases in mtg 16:04 sfan5 i don't think mtg abms use those params 16:16 Preuk then the question is... what are they for? 16:16 Preuk i remember finding an example a few months back in a mod, can't remember where, i'll just keep looking 16:17 rubenwardy merging game#1487 in 15 mins... 16:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1487 -- Make doors place when shift is held instead of calling on_rightclick by rubenwardy 16:53 rubenwardy merging... 16:54 rubenwardy done 18:29 Zeno` paramat, if you're lurking watching the logs: "get fucked and get your story straight" 18:32 rubenwardy ignoring old worlds / servers / build, would you object to requiring sunlamps? 18:32 Zeno` no because I don't want old worlds to be broken 18:32 rubenwardy for the sake of argument 18:33 hmmmm what's going on now 18:33 Zeno` if they good be made to look more natural then maybe 18:34 Zeno` hmmmm, https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1478#issuecomment-270183317 18:34 rubenwardy so the two issues are: 1) backwards compatibility, servers have underground "biomes" using torch light to grow forests, 2) mese lamps are ugly 18:35 Zeno` yes 18:35 Zeno` and paramat twisting words 18:35 rubenwardy heh 18:35 rubenwardy would game#1480 solve #2 at least? 18:35 hmmmm well wait a minute, without pulling up old logs let's figure this out 18:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1480 -- Default: Add nodebox mese light usable as a growlamp by paramat 18:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood 18:36 hmmmm i think both of you acknowledge the facts of the situation: 18:36 hmmmm - we used to be able to grow saplings underground 18:36 hmmmm - this is only because there was no light check for sapling growth, i.e. a bug 18:36 hmmmm but wait a minute, was it a bug? because the other things that grow came from the farming mods 18:37 hmmmm saplings were in minetest from the very beginning 18:39 Zeno` look, I lost my temper. I'm sorry about that. But saying that these things have never been possible is just not true 18:40 hmmmm well did he say they "never should have been possible" or actually "never was possible" 18:40 Zeno` he said "never was possible" 18:40 Zeno` the thing is, this "bug" or whatever became part of the game 18:41 Zeno` for a long, long time 18:41 hmmmm yeah, paramat makes a lot of similar arguments about buggy behavior adding to the 'charm' of the game 18:41 Zeno` I know 18:41 hmmmm it's not fair if you use the logic for one thing you like and then deny it when it's something you don't like 18:41 hmmmm i agree that it adds to the charm of the game 18:42 Zeno` I made a comment somewhere that he didn't like fixing floating rocks because it added to the charm and the character 18:42 hmmmm it's similar to the civilization gandhi with nuclear weapons 18:42 hmmmm is it technically a bug? sure 18:42 hmmmm should you change it? not unless you want to piss a lot of people off and ruin the character of the game 18:43 Zeno` that's what I'm getting at. But if something has been around for so long and people use it and enjoy it... is it really a "bug"? 18:43 hmmmm but the key phrase is "people enjoy it" 18:43 rubenwardy you can still grow trees underground, just using a more expensive light source 18:43 hmmmm from the original thread it seemed like there were a lot of people who didn't like this behavior 18:43 Zeno` well they obviously do because it's used so much 18:43 hmmmm so did we really have a fair assessment of whether it's wanted or not? 18:44 Zeno` anyway, I apologise to paramat for my outburst above 18:44 hmmmm i dunno how much more fair it'll be but for democratic decisions like this what i like to do is open a forum poll to vote 18:44 Zeno` but I am really passionate about it 18:44 hmmmm that's okay 18:44 hmmmm the problem isn't that the issue isn't important or something 18:44 hmmmm it's the fact that there is an issue and no good way of resolving it as of right now 18:45 Zeno` maybe a config option 18:45 hmmmm i know it's probably the lazy way but i seriously think there should be a vote 18:45 rubenwardy +1 for a vote 18:45 Zeno` I dunno 18:45 hmmmm yeah 18:45 rubenwardy in the mean time you can use https://github.com/rubenwardy/torches_grow_saplings 18:45 hmmmm making a config option could be an excuse for lazy engineering 18:45 hmmmm p 18:45 Zeno` if it was a config option, though, nobody could complain 18:45 Zeno` I wouldn't 18:45 Zeno` it would not break older worlds for a start 18:46 hmmmm i dunno 18:46 hmmmm i think this is possible to resolve without adding yet another config option 18:46 sofar what about the slower growth at lower light proposal? 18:46 hmmmm at least try the poll 18:46 hmmmm paramat flatly rejected it 18:46 Zeno` I liked your proposal sofar 18:46 hmmmm "No, not possible." or something similar 18:46 sofar so? there are other opinions 18:46 hmmmm i like it too tbh 18:46 sofar it's entirely possible 18:46 hmmmm so let's vote on it! 18:46 rubenwardy I would support that proposal 18:47 hmmmm i want to see what the players like 18:47 sofar let me open the issue 18:47 Zeno` ok, make a place to vote 18:47 sofar I'll do that 18:47 sfan5 a config option is about the worst solution for this 18:47 Zeno` make sure the people in minetest-project know about it as well 18:47 sfan5 also a poll on the forum is not perfect but i guess it suffices 18:47 rubenwardy config options should be avoided for gameplay reasons, imo 18:47 sofar forum poll? meh, I'd prefer github :) 18:47 rubenwardy *choices 18:48 Zeno` so far (haha), sofar's proposed solution has been the best I've seen 18:48 sofar please state the options it should have, so I make sure not to omit any: 18:49 rubenwardy - Growing requires meselamps. Add pretty mese lamp. Servers can use the [torches_grow_saplings] mod if they want to revert this behaviour 18:49 rubenwardy - Plants grow at max speed under meselamps and sunlight, and slower under torches 18:50 rubenwardy - Allow torches to grow saplings at full speed 18:50 rubenwardy - Allow sapling to grow in any lighting 18:51 Zeno` in no lighting should also probably be included since that was the bug that the commit attempted to fix 18:51 Zeno` I don't agree with the no light thing 18:51 Zeno` but it probably should be there 18:52 rubenwardy Stating the obvious, but you can use github emoji responses to vote. It's fine for people to select multiple options as they may be happy with any of them 18:53 sofar that's why I'll do it that way 18:58 hmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/stable-0.3/src/environment.cpp#L1095 18:58 hmmmm there's 0.3 18:59 hmmmm dunno how much farther back you want to go but 18:59 hmmmm sorry paramat, you're just wrong here, it's not a bug 19:05 sofar game#1493 19:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1493 -- Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground? 19:05 rubenwardy I agree it's not a bug, more a lack of consistency (which doesn't make it a bug) 19:05 sofar anything I missed? 19:05 sofar comments in here please if I need to adjust the options 19:11 sofar I see votes but no comments, lol 19:11 Zeno` how do I remove a vote? lol 19:12 sfan5 click again 19:12 Zeno` thanks 19:12 Zeno` I think #2 needs a counterpart 19:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood 19:13 Zeno` 2 could also be extended (as another option) to allow torches to grow saplings and grow crops 19:13 nrzkt sofar, i'm late but i vote for you 19:13 sfan5 sofar: i thought of implementing 2 like this: allow trees to grow with the light level torches produce 19:14 sfan5 no need to check for specific torches, no worrying about compat to other torches 19:14 sofar sfan5: hmmm, right, I'll update the options 19:14 sfan5 the implementation method doesn't matter for the options 19:15 Zeno` although I'm less passionate about crops 19:15 Zeno` I'm not sure what they needed before the changes because I never grew them 19:15 rubenwardy it may be worth giving this poll a deadline 19:16 rubenwardy Zeno`: fairly they needed sunlight or sunlamps 19:16 Zeno` could crops be grown with a torch before? 19:16 rubenwardy *fairly sure 19:16 sofar Zeno`: it's important since a lot of crop derivative mods rely on the farming code 19:17 Zeno` ok 19:19 sofar there's some double emoticons (amaz, rubenwardy) 19:20 sofar try to add only 1 emoticon per option 19:20 Amaz Opps, sorry 19:21 sofar I've added a comment to close at 1/10 19:24 rubenwardy Didn't realise it was mutually exclusive 19:25 sofar it just makes tallying easier :) 19:25 sofar if you make an option your preferred one, it's assume you :+1: the options too 19:25 sofar s/options/option/ 19:25 nore sofar: I just proposed another suggestion btw 19:26 sofar ok 19:28 nore sofar: btw, add some comment about the only 1 emoticon / option at the top as well 19:29 Zeno` thanks for the effort sofar 19:29 * Zeno` sleeps now 19:34 sofar afk a bits 19:51 hmmmm doh what is this 19:51 hmmmm you should've put the poll on the forum 19:51 hmmmm there are more minetest *players* on the forum than on github 20:41 sofar_ I can make a poll on the forum too 21:31 juhdanad Thank you for reviewing #4986! My bad habit is that I do not write according to the code style and do not use comments until my work is done, because I'm changing my own API continuously. Sorry for the inconvenience. 21:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4986 -- Hardware node coloring by juhdanad 21:39 sofar https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16332 forum version of poll 21:45 sofar link for core devs who are interested in compression algorithms 21:45 sofar https://clearlinux.org/blogs/linux-os-data-compression-options-comparing-behavior 21:45 sofar interesting notes if we ever want to revisit packet data compression 21:45 est31 cool 21:45 sofar since time is a critical component of it 21:45 sfan5 oh is that the intel thing i heard of 21:46 est31 but we need to support non linux platforms as well 21:46 est31 oh, its only about libaries 21:46 sofar the author is my colleague and friend 21:46 est31 nice post! 21:47 sofar imho we shouldn't use XZ for map data, since the time needed to compress data on disk is wasted 21:47 sofar snappy/lz4 are very interesting choices 21:47 sfan5 sofar: does intel plan on contributing their optimizations upstream? 21:47 sofar but zlib overall should be good too 21:48 sfan5 also we've had a github issue where we benchmarked some alternative compression algos already 21:48 sofar almost all the optimizations we do are directly to the upstream libs 21:48 sofar but you may have to enable cpu optimizations in distros 21:48 sfan5 yeah but will the upstream libs release with intels changes included? 21:49 sfan5 i mean obviously it's up to them but does intel plan to allow that? 21:49 nrzkt yes you will need AVX2 or some interesting instruction which are not standard in Z98 spectrum, and we support things like this in MT 21:49 sofar we don't keep these changes to ourselves 21:49 sofar nrzkt: this is compression - the streams are compatible 21:49 est31 and are both compiled with the same compiler? 21:49 sofar all these are on clearlinux, so yes, same compiler 21:50 est31 it would be unfair if the unmodified version was compiled with gcc, and the modified with the proprietary intel one 21:50 sofar there is no intel proprietary code in this article 21:51 sofar e.g. 21:51 sofar https://github.com/clearlinux-pkgs/zlib 21:51 sofar a few build patches but no code 21:52 sofar everything on github, open source 21:52 sofar it would be worthless to us if it wasn't available to all Intel's customers 21:53 sfan5 the actual source is this? https://github.com/jtkukunas/zlib 21:53 sofar yes, for zlib. Jim has been upstreaming his changes but the zlib community is... partially missing 21:54 sfan5 yeah, zlib hasn't had a new release for like... forever 21:54 est31 still hard to beat it by a lot 21:55 est31 especially if you want to beat it in all categories, compression speed, compression ratio, decompression speed 21:56 sfan5 yeah, zlib hasn't had a new release for like... forever 21:57 sofar so I just talked to Arjan and Jim 21:57 sfan5 Current release: zlib 1.2.10 January 2, 2017 21:57 sfan5 mark adler must be joking 21:57 sofar and it seems the zlib guy *just* resurfaced from a 2yr NASA stint 21:57 sofar so he's just now starting to maintain it again 21:57 Fixer save PR 3810 21:57 est31 lol 21:57 nrzkt zlib has release a version 3 years after latest, last week 21:58 est31 lol https://github.com/madler/zlib/releases 21:58 nrzkt just a question, why we don't embed sqlite library ? like jsoncpp ? 21:58 est31 it was removed for some reason 21:58 est31 not sure why 21:58 nrzkt this permit end users on old systems like Debian 7 to have an up to date and best performance lib 21:59 sfan5 possibly because it's big and takes long to compile 21:59 est31 but embedding means the git log is super bloated 21:59 nrzkt then remove jsoncpp, our implementation is outdated and hasn't optimizations 21:59 est31 even more bloated than its now 21:59 nrzkt sqlite3.c only take 15sec to compile 21:59 sfan5 yeah and our other files usually take about 0.2sec 21:59 nrzkt git log is not bloated it's just a commit log. 22:00 nrzkt sfan5, what is 15sec of compilation to have faster singleplayer backend ? 22:00 sfan5 are you aware that it doesn't actually matter on debian? 22:00 sfan5 their package maintainer will strip compiled-in stuff out 22:00 est31 +1 22:00 sfan5 it will still link to the system sqlite3 22:01 est31 its not our mission to fix their distro 22:01 nrzkt if he wants distro only then there is no interest okay 22:01 est31 if people want massively outdated software, they should be allowed 22:01 nrzkt and i don't said fix their distro, if MT is a real engine, like he wants to said, why some critical performance deps are not embedded ? 22:01 nrzkt like godot, urho, etc ? 22:01 sfan5 did you not understand? 22:02 sfan5 the debian package maintainers will remove this before making packages 22:02 est31 godot is really bad at this 22:02 est31 they produce gigantic fat binaries 22:02 est31 also, we are not godot 22:02 nrzkt est31 did you know like MT you have compilation options ? lol 22:03 nrzkt then remove this useless outdated jsoncpp from repo permitting everybody to ensure they have the correct version with CPP11 optimizations :p 22:03 nrzkt (except debian) 22:03 sfan5 having jsoncpp installed is a lot less common 22:03 Calinou nrzkt: Debian 7 users probably don't deserve performance (troll inside :P) 22:03 sfan5 same with gmp 22:03 est31 yeah 22:03 nrzkt why jsoncpp is here ? no interest, outdated 22:03 sfan5 this is why we have USE_SYSTEM_GMP and USE_SYSTEM_JSONCPP 22:04 est31 ^ 22:04 nrzkt jsoncpp is used in quasi all C++ application to perform json 22:04 sfan5 that doesn't make it any more common in "standard" installations 22:05 sfan5 okay maybe not with gmp, it's probably in every linux distro 22:05 est31 yeah 22:05 nrzkt gmp is more common than jsoncpp yes 22:05 est31 we ship mini gmp for windows users 22:05 est31 I think gmp is included in gnu standard library 22:05 nrzkt https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/jsoncpp/ 22:06 nrzkt qt5-webengine require it, after i think like us many embed it to ensure consistency 22:06 nrzkt no GMP is not with STL, hopefuly 22:06 nrzkt STL is a norm, GMP is not part of STL norm 22:07 sfan5 est31: it isn't 22:07 sfan5 however libintl is part of the GNU standard library 22:10 est31 mhh I think you are right 22:10 est31 so I remembered wrongly 22:11 nrzkt GNU STL is a little bit bloated as libintl is not STL :( 22:11 nrzkt BSD STL respect the standrd 22:18 est31 yes 22:18 est31 but BSD is almost not used except for network routers 22:19 nrzkt est31, just lol 22:19 nrzkt PS4, Wii U, Apple OSX... 22:19 sfan5 darwin is not a real bsd 22:19 nrzkt i didn't talk about kernel but userland 22:19 nrzkt Apple is a FreeBSD userland. 22:20 nrzkt with a mach micro kernel and a FreeBSD kernel 22:20 sfan5 no the kernel is darwin 22:20 nrzkt proof: apple change from ipfw to packetfilter exactly when FreeBSD changes the default in FreeBSD 9.1 or 9.2 22:20 nrzkt apple switches to clang when FreeBSD switched to clang 22:21 nrzkt etc etc 22:21 sfan5 the kernel is open source and it's not the same as freebsd 22:21 nrzkt freebsd is used in juniper network OS, it's used by gandi hoster, by whatsapp and netflix 22:21 nrzkt yahoo (lol) 22:22 nrzkt netflix modified a little bit nginx & freebsd syscall to make one box deliver 96GBps content, they find this was impossible in linux 22:23 est31 yes, BSD is better for networking 22:23 est31 and netflix are great BSD fans 22:23 nrzkt and STL also :) 22:23 nrzkt and developpers are less acid than linux :p 22:23 est31 PS4 has BSD because it can lock down the hardware 22:23 nrzkt yes, but... it has bsd it's a fact 22:23 est31 playstation had linux before 22:23 nrzkt and; not only for hardware 22:24 nrzkt jailbreak... it's native FreeBSD jails 22:24 est31 but license forced them to allow people to modify the firmware 22:24 nrzkt i saw a poc of jailbreak the exploit was very very very hard and it was perfectly same on FreeBSD (and patched) 22:24 est31 nrzkt: yes, I've meant that, they would have been required to allow jailbreaks 22:24 est31 didnt want it 22:24 sfan5 est31: ps4 also has linux :D https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7946-console_hacking_2016 22:24 est31 either way, this discussion is offtopic 22:25 nrzkt yes, and FreeBSD jails are at this moment the most robust containers in term of security, cgroup are not security mature and solaris zones are on solaris :( 22:25 est31 sfan5: not per default 22:25 sfan5 obviously not but it's possible 22:25 sofar just use VT, much more secure than any container mechanism 22:25 est31 great that hackers could break the drm 22:26 est31 its ridiculous that you are not allowed to run your own code on your own hardware 22:26 sfan5 tell that to apple 22:26 sofar lol 22:26 est31 yes, probably thats the reason why playstations are so cheap, but still 23:30 juhdanad I think #4985 should be merged as soon as possible, because it is really large and a merge conflict would be really inconvenient. And the concept is really good! 23:30 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4985 -- Environment & IGameDef code refactoring by nerzhul 23:30 est31 good point, but I think hmmmm should have a look at it 23:31 est31 hmmmm: you want to? 23:31 hmmmm oh god 23:31 hmmmm oh god 23:31 hmmmm please no 23:32 juhdanad hmmmm: this could restore the proper class relations (partly) 23:32 juhdanad also 'please no' for merge or to review? 23:32 nrzkt in fact just review 23:33 nrzkt the problem is actual igamedef is like spaghettis, you change one and... you have my pr 23:33 nrzkt the diff is a little bit less big if you remove the split of env into three parts 23:34 juhdanad nrkzt: I added my own review, too. 23:35 nrzkt juha, and thanks for commenting some old cast i didn't modify because i didn't pass on it :) 23:35 juhdanad In my eyes that PR is very important. 23:37 nrzkt a 6th commit is import to show your fixes as you mention code parts in env and commit 1 just hide them if we squash 23:39 nrzkt and yes commit 5 should be improved i only fix the compilation & remove the dup pointer, but textureshadersource can be obtained from client isntead of passing it, and also m_invmgr and maybe tsrc could be removed here : https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4985/commits/93ec7bbf80580daa30a1094885a07c78666e19ac#diff-65f34680878a6bd86f3a59ebc0c06c6dR89 to use m_client and m_client->tsrc() 23:40 nrzkt juhdanad, i will go to bed, but if you have time and want to contribute to this pr go to my repo and the concerned branch and do a PR i will merge it tomorrow 23:41 juhdanad Sorry, it is also far over bedtime here. 23:41 nrzkt like here :p 23:41 nrzkt oh you are french too 23:42 juhdanad No, from Hungary (CET). 23:42 nrzkt oh yes i was tired :p i read the FreeNode country instead of your reverse hostname 23:44 nrzkt good night, hmmmm don't hesitate to review, est31 too, the functional change is zero and the relations are cleaner and less obfuscated by IGameDef & server/client are less linked for nothing 23:45 hmmmm please think of the 163 other pull requests when you do this