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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2017-01-03

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Time Nick Message
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00:07 rubenwardy What is the point of particles.cpp/h? Why wasn't Irrlicht's particle system used with an affector to add collision?
00:07 rubenwardy particles.cpp/h has no batching
00:07 rubenwardy it draws every single particle as a separate scene node
00:08 paramat yeah others have said our particles are not optimal
00:09 rubenwardy just found #2587
00:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2587 -- wip irrlicht particles 2 by obneq
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00:49 rubenwardy I'm currently on commit 6/17 of #2587
00:49 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2587 -- wip irrlicht particles 2 by obneq
00:49 rubenwardy man this is painful to rebase
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01:25 rubenwardy rebased #2587, however there are compile errors due to things changing since (which rebase didn't pick up on) https://github.com/rubenwardy/mine​test/commits/irrlicht-particles-2
01:25 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2587 -- wip irrlicht particles 2 by obneq
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02:30 hmmmm hey guys
02:30 est31 hi
02:30 hmmmm est, you were a reviewer of 52ba1f8
02:31 hmmmm do you think it should've been merged with your approval alone?
02:31 hmmmm 4978
02:32 hmmmm could've sworn it was you, in fact, who said that changes to the network or lua api should require at least 2 approvals
02:37 est31 hmmmm: there was approval by nrz
02:37 hmmmm nrz was the author though
02:37 est31 I've read through the code very closely
02:38 est31 but yeah, maybe something subtle messed up
02:38 hmmmm and you thought https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/52ba1f867e5edb579a59a44fbb8286d4f1e54931​#diff-da1e28445fc732755d2b64683bd94ee4R966  was okay?
02:38 est31 still, letting it rot in the queue is not a way to find out
02:38 est31 I've seen the line but thought it was okay
02:39 hmmmm that's like a disaster
02:39 hmmmm how does that not scream "this code has issues with organization" to you?
02:39 est31 unknown has content features too, doesn't it?
02:39 est31 and ignore
02:39 hmmmm yes, it does
02:40 hmmmm bug free is just a starting point for quality though
02:41 est31 what are the organisation problems in your eyes?
02:41 hmmmm if you're doing crazy casts like that, you know something's wrong
02:41 hmmmm why does a PlayerSAO object need to know about the server?
02:42 hmmmm should the PlayerSAO object really be the one sending packets?
02:46 est31 mhh dunno
02:46 est31 probably it would be better to raise such concerns while PRs are still open
02:47 est31 or if they are merged, propose to change it via another PR
02:48 hmmmm i didn't even see this
02:51 hmmmm see, according to the PR it was opened 2 days ago and merged one day ago
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06:43 Zeno` time to fork minetest_game I guess
06:44 VanessaE fix it, don't fork it.
06:45 Zeno` things are being merged now without regard for what coredevs think
06:45 Zeno` also, we are not allowed to commit to minetest_game otherwise I'd just revert the silly commits
06:46 Zeno` paramat is still twisting words insisting that saplings have NEVER been able to be grown underground
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06:52 nrzkt i will merge #4975 in some minutes
06:52 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4975 -- Pull occlusion check out of loop, and minor code cleanups. by lhofhansl
06:57 Zeno` which brings me to another matter
06:58 Zeno` I don't think that we (coredevs) should be able to commit to minetest_game necessarily. But why do our downvotes not count (in paramats words)?????
06:59 * VanessaE grumbles
07:00 Zeno` paramats response to hmmmm opposing a MTG issue: "Hmmmm is not a game dev."
07:00 Zeno` isn't there something wrong when coredevs don't count?
07:01 sofar I don't agree, and I like the separation tbh
07:01 Zeno` sofar, I'm not saying we should be able to commit (we can anyway)
07:01 hmmmm really?
07:02 Zeno` But why don't our opinions count?
07:02 sofar well that's not the case in my mind
07:02 VanessaE any core dev should have an equal vote in mt_game
07:02 sofar VanessaE: that I disagree with
07:02 Zeno` well, we seem to have a problem
07:02 hmmmm okay
07:02 VanessaE like it or not, that's the MT standard game content.  it HAS to work right!
07:02 hmmmm now hold on
07:02 hmmmm wait for the majority of mtgame devs to oppose something paramat wants
07:03 hmmmm and then us core devs will be for it
07:03 hmmmm magically the 'rules' will change
07:03 VanessaE sofar: well, I'm no core dev anyway so my vote doesn't count :P
07:03 hmmmm come on man
07:03 hmmmm this is politics plain and simple
07:03 hmmmm people don't want to play politics when they do mt
07:04 Zeno` well, in that case mt_game devs should have no say in engine issue
07:04 sofar I don't like this rule bending for sure
07:04 hmmmm no, this is enforcing a completely made up rule when it benefits their case
07:04 nrzkt don't forget whereas we don't provide mt_game with engine in desktops we do it on Android
07:04 hmmmm in any case
07:05 hmmmm what i personally think is that a lot more people should have say in mtgame
07:05 hmmmm not just core devs in addition to mtgame devs (did not know there was a split in the first place...)  but people like vanessae should be allowed a vote as well
07:05 sofar well, mtg should be run by folks who have a large interest in modding and making a base game
07:05 hmmmm and i'm sure there are other contributors who are deeply involved with the project yet not core devs for whatever reasons
07:06 sofar so imho VanessaE's voice counts heavy (to me it does, anyway)
07:06 hmmmm absolutely
07:06 sofar anyone who has written lots of mods will get their voices listened to by me
07:06 hmmmm a lot of people who aren't core devs have voices that matter to me, and vice versa
07:06 sofar e.g. stujones
07:06 hmmmm i think what mostly matters is how informed their opinion is
07:07 hmmmm it's just that a fast and easy cutoff is core dev status
07:07 Zeno` even nore objected to 1476 and it was ignored until sofar said he agreed with hmmmm
07:07 Zeno` is nore no longer a game dev?
07:07 hmmmm what is 1476?
07:07 hmmmm #1476
07:07 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1476 -- Windows Cross compile script fails to copy required dlls
07:07 Zeno` https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1476
07:07 hmmmm ahh
07:08 hmmmm oh that one
07:08 Zeno` "Ok i just saw that sofar no longer wants to reduce these light levels, so this PR probably won't go ahead, "
07:09 Zeno` and all of a sudden the issue was abandoned
07:09 Zeno` weird
07:10 hmmmm if you read the PR paramat said that sofar originally proposed 1476
07:10 hmmmm so without sofar's support logically it'd be abandoned
07:10 Zeno` I realise that much :)
07:10 hmmmm i don't think it's a matter of respecting one person's opinion more or less than another's
07:11 Zeno` it doesn't matter. I'm over it
07:11 hmmmm just the principle backer of it pulled out
07:11 nrzkt maybe having a new group on the organization for mt_game voters could be good, celeron55 ^
07:11 Zeno` if we have no say in the direction of mt_game then what's the point?
07:11 hmmmm right like i said
07:12 Zeno` no wonder I find it difficult to motivate myself again for minetest
07:12 hmmmm the point of having core devs only have the power to vote on issues is to serve as a proxy for allowing informed opinions in, only
07:12 hmmmm having minetest game devs only have the power to vote on minetest game issues is divisive for no real reason
07:12 hmmmm presumably everybody who develops the core only do have informed opinions... or at least i'd hope
07:13 sofar this is why I started to think about an entirely new subgame a while back
07:14 sofar running a subgame (mtg, to me, is a subgame anyway) with too many cooks...
07:14 sofar this is why I'm not opposed to having *less* voters for mtg
07:14 hmmmm this is also why i would've preferred for changes to mt_game stay conservative if at all
07:14 hmmmm it's meant to be a starting point
07:15 minetester non-dev, random player: sofar's issue is most worrying to me, everyone pulling mtg in random directions (mesecons, machinery, etc.). More subgames would be fine as long as mtg doesnt miss out on things completely
07:16 sofar me joining has certainly pushed mtg into a new style already...
07:16 sofar I'm afk, bedtime
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11:23 Zeno` lordfingle> Hey!  Has anyone noticed that 0.4.15 is now generating dungeons over the top of previously generated terrain?
11:24 nrzkt oh great !
11:24 Zeno` yeah. There was a very large commit that changed dungeons
11:24 Zeno` I wonder if that caused the issue
11:26 Zeno` we had this once before just before 0.4.13 was released
11:26 Zeno` fortunately it was caught pretty quick that time
11:28 Zeno` (it was cave related, but much the same thing)
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12:26 juhdanad Hi! I would be very thankful if you could review #4346. It has been waiting to be merged for five months...
12:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4346 -- Improved getPointedThing() by juhdanad
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12:44 rubenwardy RE: mtgame dev discussion - the point of the split is to "problems with the development like before": http://dev.minetest.net/Minetest_Game_development
13:07 sfan5 any reason why chat doesn't support background colors
13:09 Calinou background colors can be pretty intrusive, but it'd be nice to have *if it supported alpha*
13:09 Calinou I see uses for a transparent red background for critical messages
13:09 Calinou but not opaque blue and yellow text :)
13:09 rubenwardy Do you mean like this
13:10 Calinou I think color codes are stripped in this channel
13:10 rubenwardy lol
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13:39 Preuk hi, didnt touch mt for a while, forgot some thingies about register_abm
13:40 Preuk specificaly, action parameters for abm; any pointers? (nothing in dev wiki nor lua_api about what these count parameters are)
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13:48 sfan5 Preuk: active_object_count = <how many objects the given [MapBlock] [...] contains>
13:49 sfan5 active_object_count_wider = <number of objects in the [MapBlock] and all its neighbours>
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13:49 sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/​blob/master/src/environment.cpp#L838
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15:32 Zeno` celeron55, perhaps you should look into the dissatisfaction with MTG
15:32 Zeno` and how it's managed
15:32 Zeno` a huge amount of people are upset (rightly so, IMO)
15:33 rubenwardy FWIW, I agree that coredevs that are not MTG devs should still have a say in MTG
15:34 nrzkt revolution ! caramba
15:34 Zeno` our hands are tied. Most of the time we don't care what happens in MTG, but when something comes up that is very controversial we're basically ignored
15:34 Zeno` and it seems that most modders and server ops are pissed off as well
15:35 Zeno` this is a most unfortunate situation
15:35 An0n3m0us heh
15:36 celeron55 it's not the most unfortunate situation
15:36 celeron55 not even "a"
15:36 Zeno` it is when nobody is happy :(
15:37 celeron55 that's been the case before too with mtg
15:37 Zeno` c55, so why are we (core engine devs) basically ignored?
15:38 Zeno` (e.g. hmmmm is not a mtg dev so his opinion doesn't matter)
15:38 Zeno` for that matter, why are all the server ops and modders ignored?
15:39 Zeno` because that seems, to me, to be the case at this point in time
15:39 celeron55 do you know the history of mtg?
15:39 Zeno` only roughly
15:39 rubenwardy are we talking specifically about torches/sapling, or are there other issues as well?
15:40 Zeno` there are other issues as well
15:40 Zeno` as discussed last night I believe in -project
15:40 celeron55 we tried to stop development of mtg and replace it with other subgames but then people just continued mtg under different names like minetest next or whatever
15:40 Zeno` well, stopping mtg dev would not be a good idea I don't think
15:40 celeron55 so it seemed there was no point in even trying and the ones developing minetest_next or whatever were put in charge of mtg
15:40 celeron55 and that's the current situation
15:41 Zeno` tough place to be in
15:41 celeron55 i think mtg should listen to server ops and modders though
15:41 Zeno` I dunno the solution
15:41 Zeno` I just think that we are not listened to
15:42 rubenwardy I try to listen to server ops and modders, but they don't seem to comment unless it's very controversial
15:42 rubenwardy I think there needs to be a vote to decide about torches/saplings/balance amongst core devs and servers owners
15:46 An0n3m0us yea
15:46 rubenwardy I personally don't care that much currently - there's no risk to being above ground (no mobs) so the only thing it does is make deep mining harder when it comes to getting wood
15:46 Zeno` but even those very controversial things seem to be almost disregarded
15:47 Zeno` I dunno
15:48 Zeno` basically breaking underground farms and forests is IMO a bad idea
15:48 Zeno` and it seems like a lot of people agree
15:48 Zeno` of the 10+ servers I have visisted in the last week 9 of them had these
15:49 Zeno` yes, maybe it was an oversight allowing saplings etc to be grown underground
15:49 Zeno` but it's been used for so long now it's a feature
15:49 Zeno` so "fixing" it is... well weird
15:50 Zeno` some of the creations I've seen would have taken weeks or months to build
15:50 Zeno` it's obvious players want it
15:55 sfan5 Zeno`: can you provide a list of all the thing you feel are wanted by players but not in mtg?
15:59 Zeno` it's all in #minetest-project log
16:00 Zeno` it's more things that people don't want actually heheh
16:01 Preuk sfan5: yep, but nothing about what "objects" it's about; is it just to alter abm depending on how "crowded" a mapblock is?
16:02 sfan5 Preuk: what counts as "object" is defined in the docs, i don't know why ABMs might need those parameters
16:02 sfan5 Zeno`: i wanted a list because i didn't want to hunt for it in some irc logs...
16:03 Preuk sfan5: ok so it's as literal as it seems... thanks, i'll try to find some use cases in mtg
16:04 sfan5 i don't think mtg abms use those params
16:16 Preuk then the question is... what are they for?
16:16 Preuk i remember finding an example a few months back in a mod, can't remember where, i'll just keep looking
16:17 rubenwardy merging game#1487 in 15 mins...
16:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1487 -- Make doors place when shift is held instead of calling on_rightclick by rubenwardy
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16:53 rubenwardy merging...
16:54 rubenwardy done
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18:29 Zeno` paramat, if you're lurking watching the logs: "get fucked and get your story straight"
18:32 rubenwardy ignoring old worlds / servers / build, would you object to requiring sunlamps?
18:32 Zeno` no because I don't want old worlds to be broken
18:32 rubenwardy for the sake of argument
18:33 hmmmm what's going on now
18:33 Zeno` if they good be made to look more natural then maybe
18:34 Zeno` hmmmm, https://github.com/minetest/minetest_g​ame/issues/1478#issuecomment-270183317
18:34 rubenwardy so the two issues are: 1) backwards compatibility, servers have underground "biomes" using torch light to grow forests,  2) mese lamps are ugly
18:35 Zeno` yes
18:35 Zeno` and paramat twisting words
18:35 rubenwardy heh
18:35 rubenwardy would game#1480 solve #2 at least?
18:35 hmmmm well wait a minute, without pulling up old logs let's figure this out
18:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1480 -- Default: Add nodebox mese light usable as a growlamp by paramat
18:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood
18:36 hmmmm i think both of you acknowledge the facts of the situation:
18:36 hmmmm - we used to be able to grow saplings underground
18:36 hmmmm - this is only because there was no light check for sapling growth, i.e. a bug
18:36 hmmmm but wait a minute, was it a bug?  because the other things that grow came from the farming mods
18:37 hmmmm saplings were in minetest from the very beginning
18:39 Zeno` look, I lost my temper. I'm sorry about that. But saying that these things have never been possible is just not true
18:40 hmmmm well did he say they "never should have been possible" or actually "never was possible"
18:40 Zeno` he said "never was possible"
18:40 Zeno` the thing is, this "bug" or whatever became part of the game
18:41 Zeno` for a long, long time
18:41 hmmmm yeah, paramat makes a lot of similar arguments about buggy behavior adding to the 'charm' of the game
18:41 Zeno` I know
18:41 hmmmm it's not fair if you use the logic for one thing you like and then deny it when it's something you don't like
18:41 hmmmm i agree that it adds to the charm of the game
18:42 Zeno` I made a comment somewhere that he didn't like fixing floating rocks because it added to the charm and the character
18:42 hmmmm it's similar to the civilization gandhi with nuclear weapons
18:42 hmmmm is it technically a bug?  sure
18:42 hmmmm should you change it?  not unless you want to piss a lot of people off and ruin the character of the game
18:43 Zeno` that's what I'm getting at. But if something has been around for so long and people use it and enjoy it... is it really a "bug"?
18:43 hmmmm but the key phrase is "people enjoy it"
18:43 rubenwardy you can still grow trees underground, just using a more expensive light source
18:43 hmmmm from the original thread it seemed like there were a lot of people who didn't like this behavior
18:43 Zeno` well they obviously do because it's used so much
18:43 hmmmm so did we really have a fair assessment of whether it's wanted or not?
18:44 Zeno` anyway, I apologise to paramat for my outburst above
18:44 hmmmm i dunno how much more fair it'll be but for democratic decisions like this what i like to do is open a forum poll to vote
18:44 Zeno` but I am really passionate about it
18:44 hmmmm that's okay
18:44 hmmmm the problem isn't that the issue isn't important or something
18:44 hmmmm it's the fact that there is an issue and no good way of resolving it as of right now
18:45 Zeno` maybe a config option
18:45 hmmmm i know it's probably the lazy way but i seriously think there should be a vote
18:45 rubenwardy +1 for a vote
18:45 Zeno` I dunno
18:45 hmmmm yeah
18:45 rubenwardy in the mean time you can use https://github.com/rubenwa​rdy/torches_grow_saplings
18:45 hmmmm making a config option could be an excuse for lazy engineering
18:45 hmmmm p
18:45 Zeno` if it was a config option, though, nobody could complain
18:45 Zeno` I wouldn't
18:45 Zeno` it would not break older worlds for a start
18:46 hmmmm i dunno
18:46 hmmmm i think this is possible to resolve without adding yet another config option
18:46 sofar what about the slower growth at lower light proposal?
18:46 hmmmm at least try the poll
18:46 hmmmm paramat flatly rejected it
18:46 Zeno` I liked your proposal sofar
18:46 hmmmm "No, not possible."  or something similar
18:46 sofar so? there are other opinions
18:46 hmmmm i like it too tbh
18:46 sofar it's entirely possible
18:46 hmmmm so let's vote on it!
18:46 rubenwardy I would support that proposal
18:47 hmmmm i want to see what the players like
18:47 sofar let me open the issue
18:47 Zeno` ok, make a place to vote
18:47 sofar I'll do that
18:47 sfan5 a config option is about the worst solution for this
18:47 Zeno` make sure the people in minetest-project know about it as well
18:47 sfan5 also a poll on the forum is not perfect but i guess it suffices
18:47 rubenwardy config options should be avoided for gameplay reasons, imo
18:47 sofar forum poll? meh, I'd prefer github :)
18:47 rubenwardy *choices
18:48 Zeno` so far (haha), sofar's proposed solution has been the best I've seen
18:48 sofar please state the options it should have, so I make sure not to omit any:
18:49 rubenwardy - Growing requires meselamps. Add pretty mese lamp. Servers can use the [torches_grow_saplings] mod if they want to revert this behaviour
18:49 rubenwardy - Plants grow at max speed under meselamps and sunlight, and slower under torches
18:50 rubenwardy - Allow torches to grow saplings at full speed
18:50 rubenwardy - Allow sapling to grow in any lighting
18:51 Zeno` in no lighting should also probably be included since that was the bug that the commit attempted to fix
18:51 Zeno` I don't agree with the no light thing
18:51 Zeno` but it probably should be there
18:52 rubenwardy Stating the obvious, but you can use github emoji responses to vote. It's fine for people to select multiple options as they may be happy with any of them
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18:53 sofar that's why I'll do it that way
18:58 hmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/bl​ob/stable-0.3/src/environment.cpp#L1095
18:58 hmmmm there's 0.3
18:59 hmmmm dunno how much farther back you want to go but
18:59 hmmmm sorry paramat, you're just wrong here, it's not a bug
19:05 sofar game#1493
19:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1493 -- Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground?
19:05 rubenwardy I agree it's not a bug, more a lack of consistency (which doesn't make it a bug)
19:05 sofar anything I missed?
19:05 sofar comments in here please if I need to adjust the options
19:11 sofar I see votes but no comments, lol
19:11 Zeno` how do I remove a vote? lol
19:12 sfan5 click again
19:12 Zeno` thanks
19:12 Zeno` I think #2 needs a counterpart
19:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood
19:13 Zeno` 2 could also be extended (as another option) to allow torches to grow saplings and grow crops
19:13 nrzkt sofar, i'm late but i vote for you
19:13 sfan5 sofar: i thought of implementing 2 like this: allow trees to grow with the light level torches produce
19:14 sfan5 no need to check for specific torches, no worrying about compat to other torches
19:14 sofar sfan5: hmmm, right, I'll update the options
19:14 sfan5 the implementation method doesn't matter for the options
19:15 Zeno` although I'm less passionate about crops
19:15 Zeno` I'm not sure what they needed before the changes because I never grew them
19:15 rubenwardy it may be worth giving this poll a deadline
19:16 rubenwardy Zeno`: fairly they needed sunlight or sunlamps
19:16 Zeno` could crops be grown with a torch before?
19:16 rubenwardy *fairly sure
19:16 sofar Zeno`: it's important since a lot of crop derivative mods rely on the farming code
19:17 Zeno` ok
19:19 sofar there's some double emoticons (amaz, rubenwardy)
19:20 sofar try to add only 1 emoticon per option
19:20 Amaz Opps, sorry
19:21 sofar I've added a comment to close at 1/10
19:24 rubenwardy Didn't realise it was mutually exclusive
19:25 sofar it just makes tallying easier :)
19:25 sofar if you make an option your preferred one, it's assume you :+1: the options too
19:25 sofar s/options/option/
19:25 nore sofar: I just proposed another suggestion btw
19:26 sofar ok
19:28 nore sofar: btw, add some comment about the only 1 emoticon / option at the top as well
19:29 Zeno` thanks for the effort sofar
19:29 * Zeno` sleeps now
19:34 sofar afk a bits
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19:51 hmmmm doh what is this
19:51 hmmmm you should've put the poll on the forum
19:51 hmmmm there are more minetest *players* on the forum than on github
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20:41 sofar_ I can make a poll on the forum too
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21:31 juhdanad Thank you for reviewing #4986! My bad habit is that I do not write according to the code style and do not use comments until my work is done, because I'm changing my own API continuously. Sorry for the inconvenience.
21:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4986 -- Hardware node coloring by juhdanad
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21:39 sofar https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=3&amp;t=16332 forum version of poll
21:45 sofar link for core devs who are interested in compression algorithms
21:45 sofar https://clearlinux.org/blogs/linux-os-dat​a-compression-options-comparing-behavior
21:45 sofar interesting notes if we ever want to revisit packet data compression
21:45 est31 cool
21:45 sofar since time is a critical component of it
21:45 sfan5 oh is that the intel thing i heard of
21:46 est31 but we need to support non linux platforms as well
21:46 est31 oh, its only about libaries
21:46 sofar the author is my colleague and friend
21:46 est31 nice post!
21:47 sofar imho we shouldn't use XZ for map data, since the time needed to compress data on disk is wasted
21:47 sofar snappy/lz4 are very interesting choices
21:47 sfan5 sofar: does intel plan on contributing their optimizations upstream?
21:47 sofar but zlib overall should be good too
21:48 sfan5 also we've had a github issue where we benchmarked some alternative compression algos already
21:48 sofar almost all the optimizations we do are directly to the upstream libs
21:48 sofar but you may have to enable cpu optimizations in distros
21:48 sfan5 yeah but will the upstream libs release with intels changes included?
21:49 sfan5 i mean obviously it's up to them but does intel plan to allow that?
21:49 nrzkt yes you will need AVX2 or some interesting instruction which are not standard in Z98 spectrum, and we support things like this in MT
21:49 sofar we don't keep these changes to ourselves
21:49 sofar nrzkt: this is compression - the streams are compatible
21:49 est31 and are both compiled with the same compiler?
21:49 sofar all these are on clearlinux, so yes, same compiler
21:50 est31 it would be unfair if the unmodified version was compiled with gcc, and the modified with the proprietary intel one
21:50 sofar there is no intel proprietary code in this article
21:51 sofar e.g.
21:51 sofar https://github.com/clearlinux-pkgs/zlib
21:51 sofar a few build patches but no code
21:52 sofar everything on github, open source
21:52 sofar it would be worthless to us if it wasn't available to all Intel's customers
21:53 sfan5 the actual source is this? https://github.com/jtkukunas/zlib
21:53 sofar yes, for zlib. Jim has been upstreaming his changes but the zlib community is... partially missing
21:54 sfan5 yeah, zlib hasn't had a new release for like... forever
21:54 est31 still hard to beat it by a lot
21:55 est31 especially if you want to beat it in all categories, compression speed, compression ratio, decompression speed
21:56 sfan5 <sfan5> yeah, zlib hasn't had a new release for like... forever
21:57 sofar so I just talked to Arjan and Jim
21:57 sfan5 Current release:      zlib 1.2.10     January 2, 2017
21:57 sfan5 mark adler must be joking
21:57 sofar and it seems the zlib guy *just* resurfaced from a 2yr NASA stint
21:57 sofar so he's just now starting to maintain it again
21:57 Fixer save PR 3810
21:57 est31 lol
21:57 nrzkt zlib has release a version 3 years after latest, last week
21:58 est31 lol https://github.com/madler/zlib/releases
21:58 nrzkt just a question, why we don't embed sqlite library ? like jsoncpp ?
21:58 est31 it was removed for some reason
21:58 est31 not sure why
21:58 nrzkt this permit end users on old systems like Debian 7 to have an up to date and best performance lib
21:59 sfan5 possibly because it's big and takes long to compile
21:59 est31 but embedding means the git log is super bloated
21:59 nrzkt then remove jsoncpp, our implementation is outdated and hasn't optimizations
21:59 est31 even more bloated than its now
21:59 nrzkt sqlite3.c only take 15sec to compile
21:59 sfan5 yeah and our other files usually take about 0.2sec
21:59 nrzkt git log is not bloated it's just a commit log.
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22:00 nrzkt sfan5, what is 15sec of compilation to have faster singleplayer backend ?
22:00 sfan5 are you aware that it doesn't actually matter on debian?
22:00 sfan5 their package maintainer will strip compiled-in stuff out
22:00 est31 +1
22:00 sfan5 it will still link to the system sqlite3
22:01 est31 its not our mission to fix their distro
22:01 nrzkt if he wants distro only then there is no interest okay
22:01 est31 if people want massively outdated software, they should be allowed
22:01 nrzkt and i don't said fix their distro, if MT is a real engine, like he wants to said, why some critical performance deps are not embedded ?
22:01 nrzkt like godot, urho, etc ?
22:01 sfan5 did you not understand?
22:02 sfan5 the debian package maintainers will remove this before making packages
22:02 est31 godot is really bad at this
22:02 est31 they produce gigantic fat binaries
22:02 est31 also, we are not godot
22:02 nrzkt est31 did you know like MT you have compilation options ? lol
22:03 nrzkt then remove this useless outdated jsoncpp from repo permitting everybody to ensure they have the correct version with CPP11 optimizations :p
22:03 nrzkt (except debian)
22:03 sfan5 having jsoncpp installed is a lot less common
22:03 Calinou nrzkt: Debian 7 users probably don't deserve performance (troll inside :P)
22:03 sfan5 same with gmp
22:03 est31 yeah
22:03 nrzkt why jsoncpp is here ? no interest, outdated
22:03 sfan5 this is why we have USE_SYSTEM_GMP and USE_SYSTEM_JSONCPP
22:04 est31 ^
22:04 nrzkt jsoncpp is used in quasi all C++ application to perform json
22:04 sfan5 that doesn't make it any more common in "standard" installations
22:05 sfan5 okay maybe not with gmp, it's probably in every linux distro
22:05 est31 yeah
22:05 nrzkt gmp is more common than jsoncpp yes
22:05 est31 we ship mini gmp for windows users
22:05 est31 I think gmp is included in gnu standard library
22:05 nrzkt https://www.archlinux.org/pa​ckages/extra/x86_64/jsoncpp/
22:06 nrzkt qt5-webengine require it, after i think like us many embed it to ensure consistency
22:06 nrzkt no GMP is not with STL, hopefuly
22:06 nrzkt STL is a norm, GMP is not part of STL norm
22:07 sfan5 est31: it isn't
22:07 sfan5 however libintl is part of the GNU standard library
22:10 est31 mhh I think you are right
22:10 est31 so I remembered wrongly
22:11 nrzkt GNU STL is a little bit bloated as libintl is not STL :(
22:11 nrzkt BSD STL respect the standrd
22:18 est31 yes
22:18 est31 but BSD is almost not used except for network routers
22:19 nrzkt est31, just lol
22:19 nrzkt PS4, Wii U, Apple OSX...
22:19 sfan5 darwin is not a real bsd
22:19 nrzkt i didn't talk about kernel but userland
22:19 nrzkt Apple is a FreeBSD userland.
22:20 nrzkt with a mach micro kernel and a FreeBSD kernel
22:20 sfan5 no the kernel is darwin
22:20 nrzkt proof: apple change from ipfw to packetfilter exactly when FreeBSD changes the default in FreeBSD 9.1 or 9.2
22:20 nrzkt apple switches to clang when FreeBSD switched to clang
22:21 nrzkt etc etc
22:21 sfan5 the kernel is open source and it's not the same as freebsd
22:21 nrzkt freebsd is used in juniper network OS, it's used by gandi hoster, by whatsapp and netflix
22:21 nrzkt yahoo (lol)
22:22 nrzkt netflix modified a little bit nginx & freebsd syscall to make one box deliver 96GBps content, they find this was impossible in linux
22:23 est31 yes, BSD is better for networking
22:23 est31 and netflix are great BSD fans
22:23 nrzkt and STL also :)
22:23 nrzkt and developpers are less acid than linux :p
22:23 est31 PS4 has BSD because it can lock down the hardware
22:23 nrzkt yes, but... it has bsd it's a fact
22:23 est31 playstation had linux before
22:23 nrzkt and; not only for hardware
22:24 nrzkt jailbreak... it's native FreeBSD jails
22:24 est31 but license forced them to allow people to modify the firmware
22:24 nrzkt i saw a poc of jailbreak the exploit was very very very hard and it was perfectly same on FreeBSD (and patched)
22:24 est31 nrzkt: yes, I've meant that, they would have been required to allow jailbreaks
22:24 est31 didnt want it
22:24 sfan5 est31: ps4 also has linux :D https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3​-7946-console_hacking_2016
22:24 est31 either way, this discussion is offtopic
22:25 nrzkt yes, and FreeBSD jails are at this moment the most robust containers in term of security, cgroup are not security mature and solaris zones are on solaris :(
22:25 est31 sfan5: not per default
22:25 sfan5 obviously not but it's possible
22:25 sofar just use VT, much more secure than any container mechanism
22:25 est31 great that hackers could break the drm
22:26 est31 its ridiculous that you are not allowed to run your own code on your own hardware
22:26 sfan5 tell that to apple
22:26 sofar lol
22:26 est31 yes, probably thats the reason why playstations are so cheap, but still
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23:30 juhdanad I think #4985 should be merged as soon as possible, because it is really large and a merge conflict would be really inconvenient. And the concept is really good!
23:30 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4985 -- Environment & IGameDef code refactoring by nerzhul
23:30 est31 good point, but I think hmmmm should have a look at it
23:31 est31 hmmmm: you want to?
23:31 hmmmm oh god
23:31 hmmmm oh god
23:31 hmmmm please no
23:32 juhdanad hmmmm: this could restore the proper class relations (partly)
23:32 juhdanad also 'please no' for merge or to review?
23:32 nrzkt in fact just review
23:33 nrzkt the problem is actual igamedef is like spaghettis, you change one and... you have my pr
23:33 nrzkt the diff is a little bit less big if you remove the split of env into three parts
23:34 juhdanad nrkzt: I added my own review, too.
23:35 nrzkt juha, and thanks for commenting some old cast i didn't modify because i didn't pass on it :)
23:35 juhdanad In my eyes that PR is very important.
23:37 nrzkt a 6th commit is import to show your fixes as you mention code parts in env and commit 1 just hide them if we squash
23:39 nrzkt and yes commit 5 should be improved i only fix the compilation & remove the dup pointer, but textureshadersource can be obtained from client isntead of passing it, and also m_invmgr and maybe tsrc could be removed here : https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4985​/commits/93ec7bbf80580daa30a1094885a07c78666e1​9ac#diff-65f34680878a6bd86f3a59ebc0c06c6dR89 to use m_client and m_client->tsrc()
23:40 nrzkt juhdanad, i will go to bed, but if you have time and want to contribute to this pr go to my repo and the concerned branch and do a PR i will merge it tomorrow
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23:41 juhdanad Sorry, it is also far over bedtime here.
23:41 nrzkt like here :p
23:41 nrzkt oh you are french too
23:42 juhdanad No, from Hungary (CET).
23:42 nrzkt oh yes i was tired :p i read the FreeNode country instead of your reverse hostname
23:44 nrzkt good night, hmmmm don't hesitate to review, est31 too, the functional change is zero and the relations are cleaner and less obfuscated by IGameDef & server/client are less linked for nothing
23:45 hmmmm please think of the 163 other pull requests when you do this
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