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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-12-20

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Time Nick Message
00:03 DuCake joined #minetest-dev
00:30 garywhite Are any devs on rn?
00:31 garywhite Cause I may have found the issue for #4528
00:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4528 -- minetest 0.4.14 64bit crashes at startup on Windows 10 Pro 64bit: debug.txt permissions/path problem
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00:47 garywhite Please look at #4528 I think I found the issue
00:47 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4528 -- minetest 0.4.14 64bit crashes at startup on Windows 10 Pro 64bit: debug.txt permissions/path problem
01:00 est31 garywhite: awesome, wait until Zeno is around again :)
01:00 garywhite Is he in charge of that issue?
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01:00 est31 sort of yes
01:01 garywhite ok
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03:00 paramat so the 2 mod security PRs can be merged now? will do so in a few hours if no objections
03:01 paramat or someone else feel free to
03:04 est31 #4849 didnt get two approvals
03:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4849 -- Mod security: Allow read-only access to all mod paths by ShadowNinja
03:04 paramat but the author's counts as one
03:06 ShadowNinja est approved, I approve, and sfan5 seems generally positive although he didn't actually approve it.
03:14 est31 ok
03:14 est31 paramat: still, the author has to express that approval
03:14 paramat ok yes
03:14 est31 but SN just did, so its fine to merge
03:15 paramat this is why i prefer that the author's approval is actually added to labels
03:15 paramat but this tends to upset people :]
03:16 est31 well i guess merging a pr with implicit author approval upsets those people as well
03:16 est31 plus it upsets me :)
03:16 paramat yeah
03:42 paramat sofar if you're around https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/issues/4810#issuecomment-268142713
03:51 paramat wow project channel is just a bunch of greetings :D
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04:57 garywhite paramat are you active?
05:02 paramat i will be in 30 mins
05:02 garywhite ok
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05:23 garywhite Hi Zeno`
05:23 garywhite Oops, sorry
05:32 Zeno` ?
05:32 Zeno` hi
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06:12 paramat gary how can i help?
06:14 garywhite I figured out that it's not an installer issue for the Win10 issue...Can't remember the issue#
06:14 paramat #4528
06:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4528 -- minetest 0.4.14 64bit crashes at startup on Windows 10 Pro 64bit: debug.txt permissions/path problem
06:15 garywhite It's a permissions issue, MT has to be able to have administrator privs to install to Program Files
06:15 garywhite Cause Windows' User Account Control from Vista onwards requires administrator access to write to anything in Program Files
06:16 paramat yeah saw your comment, Zeno` is the dev to talk to about this
06:16 paramat i don't understand it at all :]
06:17 garywhite Lemme put it in more...Linux-y terms
06:17 garywhite Since most of the people here use Linux
06:17 paramat ok i'll merge the 2 mod security PRs in a moment, so they get some last minute testing #4849 #4919
06:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4849 -- Mod security: Allow read-only access to all mod paths by ShadowNinja
06:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4919 -- Fix RemoveRelativePathComponents (again) and fix mod security with paths starting with ".." by ShadowNinja
06:19 garywhite Basically, the MInetest installer file installs to the main program folder (idk what that is in Linux). When you try to launch it, the computer wants MT to have su privs to be able to write to debug.txt, or anything in the program folder, thus crashing the program.
06:20 garywhite Oh shoot...
06:21 garywhite paramat: Zeno` may have a bigger problem than at first
06:21 paramat chat to him about it, i'm busy merging
06:22 garywhite He's not on
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06:24 garywhite This means that if it cannot write to Program Files, then no mods or anything can be added without administrator permission for the same reasons
06:28 garywhite I'm heading off for the night then. gn all (dunno if that's allowed tbh)
06:29 paramat that's ok
06:30 paramat you can see in the username list he is around
06:31 paramat 4919 doesn't apply after 4849, so i will merge 4849 only now
06:32 garywhite Oh, he's voiced...I was looking in regular
06:32 Zeno` yeah it's a big problem
06:33 Zeno` which is why kaeza and I are suggesting the workaround for now
06:33 Zeno` and installing in a place where the user has full write permissions
06:33 Zeno` to fix it properly will require a lot of editing in the C++ source and I think better left until the next release
06:34 garywhite Anywhere else would work, I can install to D:\Program Files (I have 2 partitions) and it works
06:34 garywhite I'd have to agree with Zeno`, use the workaround
06:34 Zeno` yeah. Then we have lots and lots of time after release to work on fixing it "properly"
06:36 paramat now merging 4849
06:42 paramat merged
06:44 paramat ShadowNinja 4919 did not apply on merge, see https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/4919#issuecomment-268166092
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06:50 Zeno` how did that not get tagged as controversial?
06:50 Zeno` too late now I guess. Oh well
06:52 paramat hm i see, it should have been
06:52 Zeno` what's done is done :)
06:55 Zeno` I guess it's not too bad
06:56 Zeno` if someone has a private Lua mod (not open source) they should make sure they don't install mods that allow it to be stolen
07:00 paramat yeah doesn't seem so bad to me either
07:00 paramat reading through
07:00 Zeno` I'm not overjoyed by it though hehe
07:00 Zeno` but *shrug*
07:01 Zeno` protocol has been followed and I had my chance to object before it was merged
07:01 paramat the alternative is turning off mod security for this release
07:01 Zeno` nah
07:01 Zeno` this is ok
07:01 paramat which is worse than this
07:01 Zeno` yes, I agree
07:02 paramat me too :]
07:04 Zeno` you agree with your own comment. How unconventional :p
07:11 Zeno` I can merge #4919 if you like
07:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4919 -- Fix RemoveRelativePathComponents (again) and fix mod security with paths starting with ".." by ShadowNinja
07:12 paramat please do if you can solve the conflict
07:12 Zeno` ok making new patch now
07:17 Zeno` paramat, merge now?
07:17 paramat i see the conflict now, it's not a conflict in the diffs, but one in the lines surrounding the diff that github uses to locate the diffs
07:17 paramat +1
07:18 Zeno` I'm going to leave as 2 commits
07:18 Zeno` they both seem quite large
07:18 paramat fine
07:19 paramat thanks
07:20 Zeno` np (all done)
07:25 paramat looks like 4923 may not be a blocker https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/issues/4923#issuecomment-268172786
07:27 paramat map gen limit was never properly implemented, it's a bit of a mess
07:31 paramat to solve the problems it may have to be added to mapgen params, unfortunately, i wish we had never added the feature now
07:32 Zeno` I was looking at that yesterday and could reproduce haha
07:32 Zeno` I think I have to somehow get a mob to spawn
07:32 Zeno` and it all go too hard :P
07:32 paramat limiting a world should have been left to mods
07:32 Zeno` well to an extent
07:33 Zeno` we have to have it fit in s16 and reserve a bunch of space around the edges to make handling edge cases (no pun intended) easier to handle
07:33 Zeno` the reserved area, as I understand it, makes handling those edge cases entirely unnessessary
07:35 Zeno` although why lua is allowing boats outside the map is a mystery
07:35 Zeno` maybe it's a ghost ship!
07:35 Zeno` get it?
07:35 * Zeno` waits for the audience to laugh
07:35 Zeno` ok, I'm going to my corner now
07:41 hmmmm boats saling off the map are explorers
07:41 hmmmm i just hope for their sake mr. columbus was right
07:42 paramat hmmmmm what do you think about mapgen limit being added to mapgen params? to be per-world
07:42 hmmmm it would be a shame for them to fall off and get deleted... or something
07:42 hmmmm yeah, we're going to have to eventually do that
07:42 paramat someone is preparing a PR to do this
07:43 Zeno` here be dragons
07:44 Zeno` apparently old maps never actually wrote that in unexplored places
07:44 Zeno` maybe we could put dragons on out-of-map areas
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07:44 hmmmm sounds like something for a mod
07:45 hmmmm i'm upset there haven't been world boundary mods that do something interesting
07:45 paramat i keep having an idea to add a few mapchunks of air around the world edge, so that you can actually fall off or build off-edge
07:45 hmmmm iirc all they do are add undestructable node walls
07:45 paramat in core. not sure if a good idea
07:45 hmmmm i doubt it
07:45 hmmmm there's so much that could go wrong with that idea
07:46 paramat very specialised too, maybe a mod thang
07:48 Zeno` well it's all a boring grey
07:48 Zeno` we spent 9 months digging to the centre of the world to see... grey
07:51 Zeno` there could at least have been some kind of evil fog there
07:51 Zeno` or walls of animated flames
07:51 Zeno` or some cheeseburgers
07:52 Zeno` flying toasters or turtles might be nice as well
07:59 paramat yes best i do this as a mod, simple too, just a bunch of air added
07:59 Zeno` mist would be better
07:59 Zeno` but swirling mist
07:59 Zeno` I guess that'd best be done with shaders though :(
08:00 Zeno` why not a galaxy/space scene? :D
08:12 hmmmm because it all takes time and effort
08:12 hmmmm minetest is ultimately just a game we work on in our spare time
08:12 Zeno` but we have heaps of spare time
08:12 hmmmm you do
08:12 Zeno` </sarcasm>
08:12 hmmmm ok have fun coding up a galaxy/space scene :P
08:12 hmmmm sigh
08:12 Zeno` lol :)
08:14 Zeno` I don't even really have time to be on IRC, but if I don't have distractions I'd go insane
08:14 hmmmm same here
08:14 Zeno` more insane*
08:14 hmmmm IRC is one of those things that don't seem to take much time or attention but it actually does build up
08:15 hmmmm if i didn't have ADD right now i would've had my workie work done
08:15 hmmmm for example what just happened to me was...
08:16 hmmmm i finished up this new interface for some thing, and now i go to replace the invocation for it in main(), and i notice a problem
08:17 hmmmm now i branch off execution like if (i_can_use_thing()) { ReallyGoodThing rgt;  rgt.LoadThingMabobbers(); } else { OldHackyWorkaround workaround; workaround.DoStuff(); } ...
08:17 hmmmm oh crap, can't do that because it's gonna fall out of scope!
08:17 hmmmm so just move them out of the scope
08:17 hmmmm oh crap, constructors do work in them among other stuff!
08:18 hmmmm so at this point i back myself into a hole
08:18 hmmmm do I change the interface to have some kind of Initialize() function for both?
08:18 hmmmm do I change it to allocate/initialize using new instead?
08:19 hmmmm and instead of making a solid decision and going forward, i go take a shit/eat a snack/etc.
08:19 hmmmm come back and nothing's changed, i still haven't figured out what i want to do
08:19 hmmmm :(
08:20 hmmmm i envy people who are able to make fast solid decisions on interface design
08:22 Zeno` geez :(
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08:22 celeron55 just use C++ and throw in new and unique_ptr
08:22 celeron55 no need to think
08:23 hmmmm well that was just an example of the types of things i get stuck on
08:24 celeron55 try to imagine how much i care about those kinds of decisions when i set out to get things done
08:24 celeron55 maybe that makes you feel less bad
08:27 hmmmm i should start taking inspiration from you and Nike
08:27 celeron55 just stick with the first thing that works without 10s of lines of spaghetti code; people will care more about what you will do next than what you did there
08:28 celeron55 altough i kind of disqualify myself from saying any of this because none of my latest work has ended up upstream yet
08:28 Zeno` you should see the code my peers write. It's 99% throwaway code all of the time
08:28 nrzkt Zeno`: java style yeah yeah :D
08:28 Zeno` mainly because it's not our focus, but still
08:28 Zeno` nrzkt, worse :D
08:29 Zeno` and most of it Fortran. (although these days Python is taking over)
08:30 Zeno` fortunately I don't have to look at that a lot of the time because the code I look at is for embedded stuff (i.e. in C)
08:30 Zeno` and embedded code has its own issues... haha
08:30 Zeno` mainly due to stack
08:32 hmmmm embedded code is some of the sloppiest shit i've seen for w/e reason
08:33 Zeno` well yeah
08:34 Zeno` to "be safe" just make the variable global
08:34 Zeno` so everything is global and large functions without structure are common as well
08:34 hmmmm :D
08:34 Zeno` just to be safe
08:34 hmmmm gotta love the large functions without structure
08:34 hmmmm at least the globals can be compartmentalized
08:36 hmmmm one leads to another though, if you have lots of globals you tend to have lots of large blob functions
08:36 hmmmm because you don't need to think about what things each sub-section of the code is dependent upon
08:36 hmmmm by splitting off functions into smaller functions you get a better idea of what the inputs/outputs are due to the forced separation
08:37 Zeno` yeah
08:37 Zeno` the funny thing is... our embedded stuff isn't life threatening or "mission critical" or anything
08:38 hmmmm it's sloppy regardless of whether it's life threatening or not, guaranteed
08:38 Zeno` if one of the remote sensors fails we can just reboot
08:39 Zeno` with no harm done at all. It's weird
08:39 hmmmm the sloppiest 'professional' code i've seen has got to be the display for a piece of digital aircraft instrumentation
08:39 Zeno` oh, we're in good hands why we fly then?
08:39 hmmmm :D
08:39 hmmmm nah you'd never get a chance to fly in that kind of plane
08:39 hmmmm but if the rumors are true, avoid Boeing jets, they have serious firmware issues
08:40 Zeno` that's why I only fly in SR71s
08:40 hmmmm like remember just a few years ago the engines dropped power because some internal timer rolled over 42 days
08:40 hmmmm lmao :(
08:40 Zeno` :D
08:40 Zeno` dinner time
08:40 Zeno` bbiab
08:40 hmmmm I forget what model that was
08:40 Zeno` the umm something bird
08:40 hmmmm lol
08:40 paramat blackbird
08:41 Zeno` high speed/altitude spy plane
08:41 Zeno` yeah blackbird
08:41 hmmmm no no I mean the model of the boeing passenger plane with the issue i mentioned
08:41 hmmmm i think it was the 777 dreamliner
08:41 paramat ah
08:42 paramat i removed 'blocker' from #4923
08:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4923 -- map_generation_limit trigger server crash
08:44 paramat looks like we have incoming workarounds for #4528 and #4638
08:44 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4528 -- minetest 0.4.14 64bit crashes at startup on Windows 10 Pro 64bit: debug.txt permissions/path problem
08:44 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4638 -- Don't ship with broken languages
08:44 paramat that leaves #4810 which doesn't seem critical
08:44 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4810 -- Unittests crash on Release build
08:46 paramat and #4888 is not essential apparently
08:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4888 -- Handle multiple deserialization of a block's entities by Rogier-5
08:50 paramat removed 4888 from milestone
09:07 Zeno` Rogier-5 should be added to contributers
09:09 Zeno` I can't see him there unless I'm blind
09:10 hmmmm maybe you should apply a gaussian blur filter to the screen
09:12 Zeno` lol
09:12 Zeno` I gotta hand it to you. That was fkn funny
09:15 Zeno` hey, it helped!
09:16 hmmmm 'night
09:16 Zeno` sleep well
09:16 Zeno` paramat, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4934
09:16 Zeno` one more for you to deal with ;)
09:18 paramat ok
09:20 Zeno` maybe leave it to last before you add the release tag
09:21 Zeno` I should have left the previous PR open longer
09:21 * Zeno` eats blue cheese for... dessert
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12:27 paramat #4936
12:27 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4936 -- Objectpos_over_limit: Use max map gen limit by paramat
12:56 nrzkt paramat: why remove the g_settings->getU16("map_generation_limit") ? if map_generation_limit < real limit it's used
12:56 nrzkt can you explain a little bit
12:58 paramat it's complex but explained in the issue linked
12:59 paramat however i think that PR is incomplete
13:00 paramat i doubt this PR can be ready for release, the map gen limit setting has created complex problems
13:00 nrzkt paramat: ofc
13:04 sfan5 paramat: unfortunately a "simple workaround" for the broken languages thing is not possbiel
13:04 sfan5 gettext loads the language files by itself
13:04 sfan5 afaik it also detects the language by itself
13:05 paramat ok
13:06 paramat i just seem to remember discussion of a hacky workaround for release
13:08 paramat "just move the translation files somewhere else is easiest probably"
13:09 sfan5 indeed
13:10 paramat sorry, obviously i don't understand the situation
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13:19 paramat ok i'm tired so back on the 21st. 4923 seems unfixable in time. 4810 not critical. 4638 and 4528 hopefully have workarounds coming. i'll leave it to others now
13:30 sfan5 pushing http://pastebin.com/raw/Z52tLBT2 in 10 minutes
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17:38 red-001 huh couldn't the installer just grant read-write permissions to all users for that minetest install location?
17:38 red-001 for the*
17:39 garywhite Zeno`: I don't think it's just altering the C++ code to fix the Windows issue
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17:47 Zeno` it's not
17:48 Zeno` it's a combination of thing, but the engine code *will* need to be changed
17:48 red-001 Are you talking about the installer isssue?
17:48 Zeno` red-001, yes
17:49 Zeno` red-001, to fix it properly we need to change default paths (for the installer version) in C++
17:49 Zeno` it's probably going to be messy, which is why the workaround is proposed for this release
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17:50 Zeno` we have to make sure that we don't break existing installations and only affect installations done with the installer
17:51 Zeno` it sounds easy at first, but when you look at the code... it's not
17:53 Zeno` the other issue is we have limited resources at the moment to test Windows builds
17:54 twoelk if working on windows paths anyways, could we make more of them configurable?  (still dreaming of a portableapps.com version)
17:56 garywhite Zeno`: Let me run a test by turning off my User Account Control & see if it allows
17:57 * twoelk could also test windows builds at work right now (boss just went home)
17:58 red-001 Wouldn't you still not have premissions to write there?
17:58 red-001 I though that was a file system thing
17:58 garywhite idk...
17:59 garywhite It's not User Account Control issue
18:01 garywhite +1 for workaround
18:04 Krock I also could build for Win32 but currently I haven't got much free time to develop and doing tests
18:08 Calinou I once got a win64 build working but it was hours of work
18:08 Calinou and some things were statically linked, others dynamically
18:08 garywhite Zeno`: http://superuser.com/questions/1031275/​windows-allow-normal-non-elevated-progr​ams-to-write-to-program-files-director
18:09 Calinou it's a terrible idea to want to write to Program Files
18:09 Calinou just use %APPDATA%
18:09 garywhite I don't think it'd be possible to write to Program Files without elevating Minetest to run as an administrator
18:10 garywhite Thanks to non-removable features introduces with UAC in Windows Vista in 2006
18:10 Calinou it's a good thing, program installation path should not be writeable, it encourages bad practice
18:10 Calinou it's the same on Linux btw
18:11 nrzkt i agree with Calinou , it's not because you use a shitty OS you should do shit :p
18:11 garywhite Calinou: MT has to be able to write to the debug file
18:11 est31 but the debug file shouldnt reside in the same place as the executable
18:11 Calinou garywhite: then write it to appdata if it's not writable in cwd
18:12 garywhite est31: The debug & the EXE both reside in /bin
18:14 garywhite So basically Zeno` there is no way, I think, that this issue can be fixed outside of not installing to Program Files
18:14 garywhite Or the workaround
18:20 Fixer just use %APPDATA%/minetest *
18:21 garywhite Fixer: It has to be a place where the user can access it to install mods & subgames
18:22 Fixer right
18:22 garywhite %APPDATA% is hidden to my knowledge
18:23 Calinou garywhite: it is hidden but we can have a shortcut created in Start Menu
18:23 Calinou "Open user data folder"
18:23 Calinou alternatively, use the Windows "saved games" folder which is not hidden
18:23 Calinou and also user-specific
18:23 garywhite True
18:24 garywhite That is easily accessible from Libraries in Windows Explorer (Not to be confused with Internet Explorer)
18:24 Calinou yes
18:26 garywhite Here's my proposal (and I would like all the devs to look at this please): Use Zeno`'s workaround for the time being, leave language as it is, and attempt to incorporate a fix build called 0.4.15a that adds multi-language support and fixes the issue for installing to Windows
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18:39 Fixer or in Documents/Minetest ?
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18:55 sfan5 garywhite: no
18:55 sfan5 fixing multi-language support is not that easy
18:55 sfan5 unless some dev is willing to dedicate themselves to fixing it no matter what this ain't gonna happen
18:57 garywhite sfan5: I'd at least look into Spanish, that is, from my research, the 2nd most spoken language, English is 3rd. So I'd at least add Spanish into MT if possible
18:57 sfan5 who said spanish isn't getting into the release?
19:02 Krock don't we already ship spanish for a long time in mt already?
19:03 sfan5 we do
19:04 Krock good, then I wasn't wrong with that. garywhite, don't worry. The most used languages seem to be fine so far
19:29 AcidNinjaFWHR But spanish is partially translated
19:29 AcidNinjaFWHR btw how do we get translations from https://hosted.weblate.org/​projects/minetest/minetest/
19:30 AcidNinjaFWHR to get merged into the github repo?
19:31 sfan5 a coredev does that
19:31 sfan5 garywhite: here's the updated list https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4638
19:32 sfan5 as you can see there is just three that are definitely broken
19:33 sfan5 !tell est31 I have updated and completed the list in issue 4638 (broken langs)
19:33 ShadowBot sfan5: O.K.
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22:27 garywhite Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't devs usually make the MT builds?
22:27 twoelk nope
22:27 twoelk not all
22:28 garywhite Cause someone made something called a snap of Minetest https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=42&amp;t=16088
22:37 nrzkt garywhite, i'm doing the android build if it's the question
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23:50 lhofhansl Interest in #4933?
23:50 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4933 -- Improve occlusion culling accuracy and efficiency. by lhofhansl

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