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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-11-13

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Time Nick Message
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08:21 Zeno` paramat, #4769
08:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4769 -- Credit where credit is due
08:22 Zeno` paramat I don't think every single person needs to be named at all
08:22 paramat ok
08:22 Zeno` but why is the work that server operators etc do not exceptional?
08:23 Zeno` maybe we don't need to dedicate the release to them
08:23 Zeno` but just add some kind of "thanks"
08:23 Zeno` that can stay forever
08:23 paramat hm well by definition all of them can't be exceptional ;]
08:24 Zeno` minetest gets boring pretty quickly without those people running MP servers :)
08:25 paramat yeah, anyway i'm not particularly opposed
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08:26 Zeno` :)
08:26 Zeno` apart from the monetary cost of running a server, it can take a lot of time as well (I know, I ran a semi-popular server for quite a while)
08:27 Zeno` onwards and upwards
08:27 * Zeno` reviews some PRs
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09:00 paramat #4742 seems good
09:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4742 -- Fix crash when attached object no longer exists by Rogier-5
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09:03 Zeno` yes
09:03 Zeno` added my tick
09:08 paramat #4608 seems good +1
09:08 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4608 -- Install texture_packs.txt to DOCDIR by yyt16384
09:10 nrzkt merging #4742
09:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4742 -- Fix crash when attached object no longer exists by Rogier-5
09:10 Zeno` paramat, +1
09:11 Zeno` nrzkt, to save confusion you should probably have left that to the person who brought it up (in this case paramat) :P~~~~
09:11 red-001 could someone take a look at #4472 ?
09:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4472 -- Make serverlist searchable. by red-001
09:11 nrzkt Zeno`, because i have a request changes tag on this PR i removed it and merge :)
09:11 nrzkt it's a trivial fix
09:12 nrzkt #4608 can be merged now paramat it's trivial
09:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4608 -- Install texture_packs.txt to DOCDIR by yyt16384
09:12 Zeno` nrzkt, I know. But say paramat was modifying a local copy (for some bizarre reason) of the diff?
09:13 Zeno` it wouldn't be likely for 4742, but lol... a more complicated merge might
09:13 Zeno` anyway, just thought it worth mentioning
09:14 paramat i won't be merging anything for an hour, and will always warn first
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09:16 paramat i'm working on my mgv7 floatland PR, hopefully will merge that within a week
09:17 Zeno` yep
09:17 Zeno` merge that other one though
09:18 Zeno` 4608
09:18 Zeno` or nrzkt can merge it
09:18 Zeno` I just can't atm :(
09:18 Zeno` github is being stupidly slow
09:18 nrzkt param i can merge 4608 if you are okay
09:21 paramat yeah go ahead, i have to eat now
09:21 paramat there are some others too
09:21 nrzkt done
09:22 paramat hm i'd really like #2827
09:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2827 -- Allow overriding the hand by TeTpaAka
09:23 Zeno` 2827?
09:23 Zeno` how old is that?!
09:23 paramat but i'm still trying to work out how to use it
09:23 paramat .. so i can test it
09:23 Zeno` hehe
09:24 Zeno` I am being invaded by flying ants! (termites)
09:38 Foghrye4_ Ok, while paramat has quit would someone be so kind to remove [Controversal] [Needs improvement] and [Won't add] labels from #4705
09:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4705 -- Adding particle blend, glow and animation by Foghrye4
09:45 est31 mhh arent ants and termites of different anchestry?
09:45 est31 yes
09:46 est31 termites are related to cockroaches and ants are related to wasps and bees
09:47 Zeno` ok smarty
09:47 Zeno` you're right :P
09:47 Zeno` Foghrye4_, why do we have to remove them while paramat is absent?
09:48 Foghrye4_ Zeno, to avoid "labels war" and to merge it before paramat complain.
09:49 Zeno` I'll remove "won't add" but not the others
09:50 Foghrye4_ Why not? [Needs improvement] is a bullshit as well.
09:50 Zeno` I haven't reviewed it fully
09:51 Zeno` (heck, I'm still reading the comments hehe)
09:51 Foghrye4_ est31 and sfan5 already reviewed it.
09:51 Zeno` yeah and hmmmm (kwoleker) has made some points against adding it
09:51 Zeno` I need to review myself as well
09:52 Zeno` I removed the "Won't Add" because from what I currently see the label wasn't appropriate
09:52 Foghrye4_ kwoleker thinks blend is an Irrlicht feature. And this is a terrible mestake.
09:52 Foghrye4_ *mistake
09:53 Zeno` possibly. As I said I haven't reviewed it myself yet
09:53 Zeno` I don't like "blocking" PRs
09:54 Foghrye4_ Yeah, me too ^^
09:54 Zeno` but with this many comments... well, I have to read them all and do a full review before I can just remove labels willy nilly
09:54 Zeno` I hope you can understand that :(
09:54 Foghrye4_ It would be pleasure for me, if you read them and make your decision.
09:55 Zeno` gosh, you've put a lot of work into it
09:55 Zeno` even documentation
09:55 Foghrye4_ Indeed.
09:56 Foghrye4_ And still paramat can't understand how it works. Even with all documentation.
09:56 Zeno` what's paramat's main concern with it?
09:57 est31 I think he doesnt like it because it only adds visual candy
09:57 Zeno` (in your opinion)
09:57 est31 and paramat hates visual candy
09:57 Zeno` well, that's not a valid reason to block a PR
09:57 est31 if it were for him, all blocks would look the same
09:57 Foghrye4_ He don't understand how blend works and did not know how disabling z-buffer write affect translucent particles display.
09:57 est31 nodes*
09:58 Foghrye4_ Therefore he don't want to add something, he could not understand.
09:58 Foghrye4_ And yes, he hates eye candy ^^
09:59 Zeno` ok, I agree that the objections seem a bit "without substance"
09:59 Zeno` I would still like more time to review it more if that's ok
10:00 Foghrye4_ What if i told you "No, its not ok. MERGE IT NOW!". Of course its OK.
10:02 Zeno` I'm going to remove "Needs Improvement" as well
10:02 Foghrye4_ Hooray!
10:02 Zeno` from a very quick review i'm not sure what exactly needs improving
10:04 sfan5 Foghrye4_: "there are 2 reviews -> we merge it 100%" isn't a thing
10:04 sfan5 if there are reasonable concerns from another coredev they have to be addressed
10:05 Zeno` correct
10:05 Zeno` and the main person I want to speak to in this instance is hmmmm
10:06 Zeno` personally I like the PR from what I can see so far
10:08 Zeno` but as sfan so correctly pointed out, it's not just up to me
10:09 Foghrye4_ Sofar will be happy as well.
10:09 Zeno` why? :)
10:09 Foghrye4_ ... with latest changes I made. He wants "vertical frames" animation support.
10:10 Foghrye4_ And I made it. No other complains.
10:10 Zeno` ok, well. I'll speak to hmmmm
10:10 Zeno` the PR is not "Won't Close" now
10:10 Zeno` I think it should be merged
10:10 Zeno` but I want to discuss some things with hmmmm first
10:11 Zeno` err not "Won't add"
10:15 sfan5 hm, why aren't our clouds transparent?
10:15 sfan5 they are in minecraft :P -> http://i.imgur.com/2DGhvsZ.png
10:21 est31 there are transparent too, no?
10:21 * est31 checks
10:22 est31 they are indeed
10:23 est31 http://pasteboard.co/qH0fX83cV.png
10:24 est31 http://pasteboard.co/qH0ucggf8.png
10:29 * Zeno` confused now
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10:36 Krock ^ http://i.imgur.com/aWwFmDn.gif
10:43 Zeno` lol
10:46 celeron55 why isn't minetest made in C++
10:47 celeron55 ok, i guess i'm being rude now
10:49 * Zeno` plays the celeron55 song
10:50 Krock huh?
10:50 celeron55 :D
10:53 sfan5 est31: they are not transparent enough then
11:12 est31 mhh I think this last comment from paramat raises some valid points
11:12 est31 that it is hard to understand for minetest modders
11:13 Foghrye4_ Thats no justify removing it from Lua API. If I could understand it, some people also could.
11:14 Foghrye4_ *not
11:14 est31 well one of the places minetest is prefered over minecraft is in schools where kids learn to program
11:15 est31 minetest has very few advantages over minecraft other than the license
11:15 est31 lets cling to those we have
11:15 Foghrye4_ Well, in that case we give those kids opportunity to improve their understanding of 3d graphics.
11:16 Foghrye4_ We are not forcing anyone to use any feature.
11:16 Foghrye4_ We just give them an option.
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11:34 Zeno` sofar, what are your main objections to #4705?
11:34 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4705 -- Adding particle blend, glow and animation by Foghrye4
11:35 Foghrye4_ Sofar is here?
11:35 Zeno` well his nick is here
11:36 Foghrye4_ I pind him yesterday and leave PM, but he still did not reply.
11:36 Foghrye4_ *ping.
11:36 Zeno` he might be having a very long sleep
11:36 Foghrye4_ I hope he did not die behind his keyboard.
11:37 Zeno` no. the parrot is not dead. it's just sleeping
11:38 Zeno` the only person here who might "get" that comment is probably Krock lol
11:38 Krock I bet there are others too
11:38 Zeno` brb, checking my shrubbery
11:45 Zeno` i did wee wee on it
11:45 * Zeno` giggles
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12:09 Zeno` will merge #4705 in 1 hour
12:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4705 -- Adding particle blend, glow and animation by Foghrye4
12:11 sfan5 Zeno`: what about hmmmms concerns?
12:12 Zeno` the don't seem relevant
12:12 Zeno` they*
12:14 Zeno` sfan5, do they seem compelling objections to you?
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12:36 sfan5 Zeno`: yes
12:39 Foghrye4_ sfan5, where I can read hmmmms concerns?
12:40 sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/4705#issuecomment-258316096
12:40 Foghrye4_ >these are my first general impressions.
12:41 sfan5 does that make that comment invalid or unimportant?
12:41 Foghrye4_ He thinks blend is Irrlicht feature, but it is not. Its already was negotiated.
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12:43 sfan5 i'd like to see an approval / "withdrawal" of his concern before we merge this
12:43 Foghrye4_ oh, noes...
12:45 est31 I agree with sfan5
12:46 Zeno` yes ok
12:46 Zeno` I will wait to talk with hmmmm
12:47 Zeno` I kinda said that already which is why I said an hour (I thought he'd be here by now)
12:48 * Foghrye4_ sigh in frustration
12:48 Zeno` but ya know what?
12:48 sfan5 Foghrye4_: that's how the rules are
12:48 Zeno` just because hmmmm objects to something doesn't mean that the PR cannot be merged
12:49 Zeno` as talented as he is, and I respect him very much, he's not the "gatekeeper"
12:49 Zeno` where if he says no, it means somethign cannot be merged
12:50 est31 sfan5: about the cloud opacity, I'm okay with the current opacity
12:50 est31 I don't think we should change it just for the sake of being more similar to minecraft
12:50 sfan5 maybe we can add an option for cloud opacity
12:51 est31 good idea
12:52 Foghrye4_ It could be wonderful, if we could add some "decorative scene node" which is rendered independed from distance and active block range.
12:52 Foghrye4_ For planets, clouds, satellites and such.
12:53 sfan5 that would be absolutely horrible
12:53 est31 yes
12:53 Foghrye4_ Why?
12:53 sfan5 the mapblocks might not be loaded, might be unloaded
12:53 est31 in the ideal case, planets are simply just VAEs
12:53 sfan5 you don't get changes for far away mapblocks
12:53 sfan5 etc.
12:53 est31 and we manage to somehow render lots of stuff from a big distance
12:53 Foghrye4_ This should not be saved in map blocks.
12:54 sfan5 but then it's not a node
12:54 Foghrye4_ How its called in Irrlicht?
12:55 Foghrye4_ An object inside scene?
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12:56 Foghrye4_ Aha, its called "Scene node", sorry.
12:56 Foghrye4_ http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/docu/c​lassirr_1_1scene_1_1_i_scene_node.html
12:59 Foghrye4_ Definitely creating such objects and control behavior would fit good in client side API.
12:59 Foghrye4_ (*of them)
12:59 sfan5 a server side api could do this too
12:59 sfan5 and that even could be done right now
13:00 sfan5 instead of waiting for client side modding to get added somewhen
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14:05 Foghrye4_ Here is a kahrl mentioning that we could cause client crash by assigning incorrect material param value. I could add a check on client or on server side, but any additional check will add a little bit CPU load. What you opinion?
14:05 Foghrye4_ *your
14:05 Foghrye4_ *opinions
14:06 Foghrye4_ And of course I'm about #4705
14:06 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4705 -- Adding particle blend, glow and animation by Foghrye4
14:08 est31 Foghrye4_: do it server side and do it client side
14:09 est31 both sides are important
14:09 Foghrye4_ Roger that.
14:09 est31 server side for helping mod developers
14:09 est31 client side for ensuring safety
14:10 est31 best option client side would be to ignore it and print something to error or warningstream
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15:28 Zeno` guys I've asked Shara here to share her concerns
15:29 Shara Hi all. Please blame Zeno` for me poking my nose in here. :)
15:29 Zeno` you're welcome here anytime you like, Shara
15:29 Shara I've been getting players on my server who report they cannot use the fly priv on their app unless they pay, despite me granting the priv by default.
15:30 Shara They are usually children, so it can be difficult to get many details from them.
15:30 Shara But it seems many of them are ipad users, so there is no official client for me to direct them to instead.
15:30 Zeno` celeron55, with the current license can anything be done about this?
15:31 Zeno` or, alternatively, is an official ipad client within our grasp? (I dunno the answer)
15:33 Shara As much as I don't want to recommend an unofficial client, even knowing one that doesn't have this kind of issue to tell them to look for would be an improvement.
15:36 Fixer i made long 2 wide stairs down to my deep mine, and now I can't get up, keep getting stuck in those stairs all the time, please fix this bullshit
15:37 celeron55 Zeno`: well as far as i know, LGPL is illegal in the app store
15:38 Zeno` Shara, are they getting the app from the app store?
15:39 celeron55 there does exist a source of funds that might possibly allow paying someone to make an official iOS port of minetest or maybe buying one of the existing ones
15:39 Shara I am assuming from the app store. They are children so I don't know what else they would be doing. (note that I don't use tablets to play myself, so might be missing something obvious in this assumption)
15:41 Shara celeron55: One of the players with this issue last night told me it was the Exploration app.
15:42 nrzkt just nuke those fucking clones which doesn't participate to the devel
15:45 est31 its a double edged sword
15:45 est31 on one hand, these people are bad, because they worsen the experience for the players
15:45 est31 on the other hand, they are the reason those players play minetest the first place
15:48 Shara As someone who covers the cost of running a server, though I don't object to that cost itself, it's very disheartening to have other people profit so children can play on my server the way I intend them to.
15:49 OldCoder
15:49 OldCoder Wait, this part about LGPL illegal in the app store - is this something we didn't know before?
15:49 OldCoder est31's point is noted but - and I have talked politely with some of the publishers - nuke them
15:50 OldCoder Nuke now. I'm tired today and can't do the filings. But I will if nobody else will this month.
15:50 OldCoder The deciding point for me is that some of these packages...
15:51 OldCoder Do not even credit the parent project. They have screenshots of my worlds
15:51 OldCoder and yours
15:51 OldCoder as though these are *their* creations - the software and the worlds
15:51 OldCoder Take them down, please
15:51 OldCoder
15:51 OldCoder Shara, celeron55, Zeno` ^
15:52 Zeno` I tend to agree
15:52 Fixer if it is illegal - nuke them
15:52 OldCoder sfan5, new discussion of this issue ^
15:52 Zeno` if it really is illegal (I dunno) then nuke 'em
15:52 est31 nuke all illegal forks of minetest
15:52 OldCoder Yes and no on illegal as in prosecutable - C55 assume holds copyright
15:52 Zeno` if it *is* legal then we need our own official client
15:53 OldCoder LGPL does not waive copyright - or it may assign copyright to FSF
15:53 OldCoder Zeno`, if the actual rights holder...
15:53 Shara Any app that is looking to profit in such ways... I'd love to see nuked.
15:53 est31 obviously, it doesn't waive copyright
15:53 OldCoder One of the GPLs does transfer copyright IIRC to FSF
15:53 est31 we can only nuke illegal apps
15:53 Zeno` but do we have the resources to build an ios client?
15:53 OldCoder I doubt LGPL does
15:53 est31 and those should be IMO
15:53 Shara But problem remains that ipad needs a 'good' option.
15:53 est31 and if its illegal to have an ios client, then all ios clients should be nuked
15:53 est31 simple as that
15:54 OldCoder Anyway the clones are at least technically illegal as in violations of copyright law
15:54 OldCoder BUT
15:54 est31 yes
15:54 Zeno` if it's illegal someone should complain
15:54 Zeno` preferably c55
15:54 OldCoder there are multiple factors involved in terms of "illegal"
15:54 Zeno` because all our work is transferred to him at the end of the day
15:54 sfan5 celeron55: did you say "official ios port"? https://github.com/sfan5/minetest/tree/ios_new
15:55 OldCoder Zeno`, Google will take complaints from involved parties
15:55 OldCoder Both sfan5 IIRC and I have done filings before
15:55 est31 We could still have an official ios app on the app store, even when we use the argument of ios apps being illegal
15:55 est31 to take down forks
15:55 sfan5 est31: the issue with lgpl and app store remains
15:56 est31 sfan5: we simply hope that nobody who owns copyright on minetest tries to take down the official client
15:56 est31 its not a good state to be in, but better than nothing
15:56 sfan5 well who owns the copyright?
15:57 est31 subset of these people I guess https://github.com/minetest/​minetest/graphs/contributors
15:57 est31 https://github.com/minetest/min​etest_game/graphs/contributors
15:57 OldCoder Hm - Or is it C55 ?
15:57 OldCoder The contributors can file; his email can be included on contacts list
15:57 sfan5 hm yeah
15:57 est31 dunno, I'm not a lawyer
15:57 OldCoder This satisfies Google requirements
15:57 sfan5 in theory each one of those could send a dmca
15:58 OldCoder I spoke with the iOS desk once; they seemed amenable to complaints
15:58 OldCoder We've done this before - I gather there is new interest - scrolling up...
15:59 OldCoder C55 has noted something that seems to be new. I gather we haven't specifically mentioned LGPL to Google before. But there are FOSS apps in the Play Store...
15:59 OldCoder celeron55, can you elaborate on the LGPL point you made earlier?
16:00 est31 the problem is that the app store basically enforces static linking
16:00 OldCoder Hm; how are FOSS apps on it?
16:00 est31 you may not submit which use dynamic linking
16:00 est31 submit apps*
16:00 OldCoder Are ALL GPL FOSS apps there inappropriate?
16:01 est31 yes
16:01 OldCoder Whoa
16:01 est31 VLC player got thrown off apple app store
16:01 est31 because of GPL
16:01 OldCoder What about
16:01 est31 then they rewrote everything under mpl...
16:01 OldCoder Play Store - VLC is there now
16:01 OldCoder Ahh
16:01 est31 and play store is a different matter
16:01 est31 there you are allowed to use dynamic linking
16:02 OldCoder est31, what of C55 remarks then?
16:02 OldCoder Is LGPL per se
16:02 OldCoder not an issue for Play Store?
16:02 est31 no its fine
16:02 OldCoder So, there is not really new information related to Google...
16:03 est31 I'm not sure tbh whether you can put purely LGPL  licensed stuff on the apple app store
16:03 OldCoder Just some interest. Does anybody wish to help with takedown of Exploration?
16:03 est31 that may even work
16:03 sfan5 est31: the problems arise from the "allow the user to use different libraries" clause, right?
16:03 est31 sfan5: I think so.
16:03 est31 but the other clauses can cause problems too
16:04 est31 its all a matter of interpretation
16:05 sfan5 which others?
16:05 est31 "For an executable, the required form of the "work that uses the Library" must include any data and utility programs needed for reproducing the executable from it."
16:05 est31 this may pose a problem with app signing
16:05 est31 but idk, I'm no lawyer
16:06 est31 the license text continues
16:06 est31 "
16:06 est31 It may happen that this requirement contradicts the license restrictions of other proprietary libraries that do not normally accompany the operating system. Such a contradiction means you cannot use both them and the Library together in an executable that you distribute. "
16:06 OldCoder Wait
16:06 OldCoder So technically
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16:07 sfan5 the first one sounds like you should include the build system
16:07 OldCoder Well, I dispute the FSF position that dynamic linking is the same as static
16:07 OldCoder But
16:07 sfan5 and not just throw a few source files at the user
16:07 OldCoder If you accept that position
16:07 OldCoder Almost no LGPL or GPL apps should be legal
16:07 OldCoder Am I missing something?
16:07 est31 sfan5: that's what its made for
16:07 OldCoder Unless they are built with a pure FOSS framework
16:08 sfan5 est31: IANAL but i'm pretty sure they don't mean that you should include gcc, the linux kernel and a coupon to buy a computer with that
16:08 est31 OldCoder: the license also says " However, as a special exception, the materials to be distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable. "
16:08 sfan5 so it should be fine
16:08 OldCoder Right, est31 but don't...
16:08 sfan5 ah they even have some text for that
16:08 OldCoder many Play Store apps link against other stuff?
16:09 sfan5 hm
16:09 sfan5 est31: actually why could every single minetest contributor dmca a minetest app?
16:09 sfan5 their contributions are licensed under lgpl, as long as that is followed
16:10 est31 as long as lgpl is followed nobody can be dmca'd
16:10 est31 I suggested to put an official app on the play store that is tolerated or not known about by all minetest contributors
16:11 est31 and dmca'ing all other apps on the app store
16:11 est31 s/play/app/
16:11 red-001 not a bad plan
16:11 sfan5 this isn't an issue with the play store as far as i'm aware
16:12 sfan5 the problem occurs when you try to publish to the app store (iOS)
16:12 est31 yes, its its no issue with the play store.
16:12 est31 thats why I said s/play/app/
16:12 est31 :)
16:12 red-001 I used to have a list of all minetest clones on the app store
16:13 est31 It may theoretically even be legal to put something LGPL licensed on the app store
16:13 est31 as long as the whole app is lgpl licensed
16:13 est31 no proprietary components
16:14 est31 but I'm not really sure
16:14 sfan5 there are none
16:14 est31 all the info I can find on the net is about using LGPL licensed libraries alongside proprietary ones, or inside proprietary apps
16:15 est31 but we have a completely LGPL'd (or LGPL-able like for irrlicht/libvorbis etc) codebase
16:16 sfan5 on iOS static linking is required for: Irrlicht, freetype, leveldb, ogg/vorbis
16:16 est31 all these things have non copyleft licenses
16:17 sfan5 you can even drop the last three if you don't want sound, nice fonts or leveldb
16:21 est31 http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/mor​e-about-the-app-store-gpl-enforcement
16:21 red-001 found the list of clones: http://pastebin.com/tSscP1QV
16:21 est31 this "You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein." is part of the LGPL too
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16:22 sfan5 well that clause is impossible to fulfil with app store
16:39 OldCoder Next steps?
16:41 celeron55 basically, apple users are screwed like they have always been and always will be
16:42 celeron55 more news at 11
16:42 celeron55 too bad they're kids
16:43 celeron55 it'll be a long lesson 8)
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20:45 red-001 so it is not possible to have an official build in the app store?
20:49 Calinou red-001: iOS App Store? nope, it's not possible
20:50 Calinou Mac App Store probably as well
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21:35 KaadmY in doc/lua_api.txt: "You can send such improvements as source code patches to <email>."
21:36 KaadmY should that be changed to say do a PR on github
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