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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-10-21

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Time Nick Message
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01:15 paramat trivial docs update #4651 will merge later
01:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4651 -- Lua_api.txt: Clarify 'override_meta' bool in 'set mapgen setting' by paramat
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03:28 paramat damage sounds for consideration game#1336 sofar bbl
03:28 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1336 -- Default: Add damage sounds by paramat
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04:01 sofar paramat: not bad!
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04:45 paramat i'll merge #4573 #4651 in a moment
04:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4573 -- Damage flash: Reduce maximum alpha. Avoid fade overload by paramat
04:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4651 -- Lua_api.txt: Clarify 'override_meta' bool in 'set mapgen setting' by paramat
04:51 paramat merging
04:53 garywhite So paramat I know that 4.14 came out in May, so my guess is the next version will come out in spring 2017?
04:54 paramat around Dec 21st
04:55 paramat so it can be a solstice / xmas thing
04:55 paramat merged
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05:23 garywhite night all
05:24 * garywhite wanders off to bed
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11:11 _Megaf Hi folks
11:12 _Megaf est31: do you know if Rogier uses IRC?
11:12 _Megaf He is doing a great work with the compression thing and other things too
11:13 est31 _Megaf: he's here only very rarely, if I recall correctly
11:13 est31 yes, rogier is doing great work
11:13 _Megaf That last 30% increase in speed got me, that was unexpected
11:14 _Megaf Anyhow, I'd like to be able to choose the compression lib for my server
11:14 _Megaf we can choose the db backend, so why not choosing the compression lib to?
11:15 _Megaf Every server has it's different needs
11:15 est31 because it needs to be baked into the protocol
11:15 est31 every client must ship with all compression libraries
11:15 est31 essentially we must bundle all compression libraries we allow in the source code
11:15 est31 it isnt as simple as with db backends
11:15 _Megaf Oh
11:15 _Megaf I see
11:16 _Megaf with db is easier because clients don't need them
11:16 est31 yes
11:17 nrzkt est31: i did the requested changes on the PR and answer on the getPlayerSAO() point
11:17 _Megaf ok, so let's just get the fastest that don't increase the db size.
11:21 Megaf "@est31: I did some more investigation using perf and strace, and it turns out the malloc library is actually the culprit! It will repeatedly munmap() a free()d 5MB area of memory, only to mmap() it again on the subsequent malloc() in the zstd code. The original code even mmap()ed and munmap()ed 2 areas of 5MB and one of 2MB for every compression operation... Every time again, at least one of the 5MB areas is zeroed with memset(). How's that for a
11:21 Megaf way to avoid having to turn on the heater when it's cold :-)"
11:21 Megaf That explains a lot on low power CPUs
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11:54 Fixer it is not mine, just look how chat is done, just add entry field below chat text output and scroll and you are done
12:01 sfan5 est31: right now it looks like that *IF* we replace zlib it would be a good idea to go with brotli because of reduced size, what do you think?
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12:51 est31 sfan5: yes, currently it looks like brotli is the best option
12:51 est31 but it would be great if we could test dictionaries before that
12:51 est31 whether they give a benefit or not
12:52 est31 (and whether zstd then performs better than brotli then)
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12:56 nrzkt sfan5: i don't agree space is a good point except for network reasons, depending on the diff. The most important thing is to serialize/deserialize mapblocks fast with a good compression ratio, but not the best
12:57 Calinou LZ4 seems the most appropriate here
12:57 Calinou disk space is cheap, very cheap, CPU is definitely not so
12:57 Calinou and bandwidth is relatively affordable in general
12:57 nrzkt yes, i also think LZ4 is the best approach, it consume a little bit more space but CPU overhead is just ridiculous
12:58 Calinou LZ4 is ridiculously fast :p
12:58 PR4530lives Calinou: some admins will disagree
12:58 est31 O.o getting github unicorns
12:58 PR4530lives Calinou: it is pain to backup a large world
12:58 Calinou the worlds won't be larger by that much
12:58 nrzkt why ZFS has LZ4 ondisk compression + gzip + lzo instead of brotli and zstd ?
12:58 nrzkt PR4530lives: LZ4 world size only increase ~5-10%
12:58 Calinou https://facebook.github.io/zstd/
12:58 PR4530lives Calinou: bandwidth is important for many since they are running server on their machinesz
12:58 Calinou LZ4 reads at 3,100 MB/s
12:59 Calinou PR4530lives: no, the majority of medium/large-sized servers run on VPSes or dedis, which have unmetered bandwidth (or several TBs of metered bandwidth)
12:59 Calinou home servers are kind of fading away, since the price of VPSes is going down for better specs and service
12:59 PR4530lives Calinou: minetest servers?
12:59 Calinou yes
13:00 PR4530lives i have opposite impression
13:00 nrzkt i use LZ4 as a compression method on my server to store mapblocks into postgresql and there is not decompression/compression penalty, my CPU was very very lightweight now
13:00 PR4530lives people still prefer home hardware
13:00 nrzkt PR4530lives: take the serverlist, whois each server and verify :)
13:00 PR4530lives it is probably in between
13:00 PR4530lives nrzkt: actually a good idea
13:01 Calinou yeah but I get the feeling most servers are in datacenters, not in people's homes
13:01 Calinou especially if you exclude servers with a low amount of players on average
13:01 nrzkt decompression of non loaded mapblocks or compression to save mapblocks take ~10% used CPU in a running server. LZ4 reduce this to 2-3%
13:02 PR4530lives Calinou: i believe both just test, just test ii and xanadu with lots of players are on home hardware
13:02 nrzkt to be precise, when i did my last tests on LZ4 on my server with valgrind, the most consuming process after ABM was GZIP compression
13:02 Calinou yeah but they have a good amount of bandwidth
13:02 Calinou they're not hosted on a low-end ADSL line, I believe
13:02 nrzkt with LZ4 i didn't see LZ4 compression in the top 20 actions performs by the server
13:03 est31 LZ4 takes more than double as much space
13:03 nrzkt this is wrong est31
13:03 nrzkt did you test with very heavy mapblocks or empty ?
13:04 est31 https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/6202053​/19588218/853eeb94-9764-11e6-8738-8db608984707.png
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13:04 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/issues/4495#issuecomment-255305550
13:04 Calinou ah
13:04 Calinou is this really a problem though? I figure people host servers on HDD machines, and can afford the added storage
13:05 Calinou SSDs are also getting larger, although some low-end VPSes stick with 20-40 GB SSDs (but you shouldn't host a large server on those...)
13:05 sfan5 >and bandwidth is relatively affordable in general
13:05 sfan5 no it isn't
13:05 nrzkt est31, Calinou: my db size with 100% generated mapblocks only uses 15GB
13:05 Calinou sfan5: it's unmetered on my VPS here :)
13:05 sfan5 dont think about your vps
13:05 sfan5 think about mobile users
13:05 nrzkt for mobile users CPU is the principal problem
13:05 Calinou do we care about people playing on crap mobile networks? I think it's a worthless idea
13:05 sfan5 and don't come citing your mobile plan with 20GB you pay 10€/mo for
13:05 Calinou it is doable to play on 4G, but other than that, just stop it
13:05 sfan5 people in brazil dont have that shit
13:05 nrzkt not the BW as the 4G is everywhere now
13:06 Calinou we are not developing a game for mobile clones with ads.
13:06 Calinou we are developing a game for us :)
13:06 sfan5 4g is not everywhere either
13:06 Calinou playing a game on 3G is asking for trouble
13:06 sfan5 okay then go on and delete the android port
13:06 sfan5 since we don't need it apparently
13:06 Calinou except if it's chess or something like that
13:06 nrzkt in fact our mobile experience is just bad in fact as we don't have proper controls for android :p
13:06 nrzkt but maybe some clones have modified it heh
13:07 Calinou also for what it's worth, Minetest is pretty lightweight on bandwidth compared to Minecraft.
13:07 sfan5 and that justifies making the mobile experience even worse?
13:07 Calinou so we can double our bandwidth requirements, we should still be below Minecraft. (or on a similar level)
13:07 est31 so, lets make it worse
13:07 Calinou nrzkt: first person games on a phone are an oxymoron
13:07 est31 because minetest has to be worse than minecraft, no?
13:07 Calinou I'd consider them remotely playable on a 10" only
13:10 PR4530lives Calinou: i've looked most popular servers, and it is evident that most popular once a on home hardware
13:10 nrzkt Calinou: i think we should use the accelerometer for mobile users with minetest to permit them to move in the world xD
13:10 PR4530lives are*
13:10 PR4530lives Ukraine is rolling out 4G only now, and that East Europe for you
13:11 PR4530lives most of servers with lots of players are on home hardware it seems
13:11 PR4530lives bandwidth is important for some of them
13:11 PR4530lives since many ISPs got SHITTY upload rates
13:12 Calinou I could play Minetest perfectly with 0.3 Mb/s upload back in 2012 :P
13:12 Calinou (as a client)
13:12 Calinou also, isn't MapBlock sending, as a client, mostly downloading?
13:13 Calinou nrzkt: when you say you have a fully generated world, is it from -31000,-31000,-31000 to 31000,31000,31000?
13:14 nrzkt Calinou: yes
13:15 est31 tbh, I can't believe it only takes 15 GB
13:15 est31 nrzkt: do you use postgres compression?
13:15 nrzkt i have added a background processor on my server which emerge all blocks periodically from 0 to abs(X),abs(Y),abs(Z)
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13:21 nrzkt est31: no it's not a good option for our use case
13:21 nrzkt and on my disk i don't compress to increase the fetch time for my pgsql
13:21 nrzkt and i also use a SSL connection to my pg
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13:24 nrzkt note: it's a pg 9.6
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13:24 nrzkt but only since 2 weeks :p
13:24 Fixer Calinou: it is not about client, thats about server upload
13:25 Calinou don't hosts servers on ADSL connections ._.
13:25 Fixer Calinou: for example Cash Wolrd starts to have problems somewhere at 20 players and he has 2Mbit of upload iirc
13:25 Fixer Calinou: people will since it is just a hobby
13:26 nrzkt Fixer: with 20 players generally it's not upload the problem but engine itself, especially with many lua and ABMs
13:26 Fixer nrzkt: no
13:26 nrzkt minetest bw is very lightweight
13:26 Fixer nrzkt: max_lag is nice, network lag is big
13:26 Fixer nrzkt: look at xanadu, it has lots of mods and still works nice with 40 players
13:27 Fixer if you don't use heavy mods it works nice most of the time
13:28 Fixer jt II with 28 players, max_lag 0.6
13:29 Fixer Calinou: i believe some vps are rip off, look at some servers, like LinuxGaming, with no players it has huge max_lag 7 because of some BS VPS
13:29 Fixer same with LibertyLand
13:30 Fixer one thing is dedicated server, another thing is some virtualised crap
13:45 Calinou if you want high-performance gaming, you need a dedi anyway
13:46 Calinou people happily pay €40+ a month to host Minecraft servers
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16:03 Fixer not sure if happily though
16:05 sfan5 <Calinou> also, isn't MapBlock sending, as a client, mostly downloading?
16:05 sfan5 clients don't send any mapblocks
16:05 sfan5 only changes to individual nodes
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18:54 paramat sfan5 rubenwardy game#1336
18:54 ShadowBot paramat: Error: Delimiter not found in "Page is too big or the server took too much time to answer the request."
18:54 paramat https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/pull/1336 add damage sounds
18:55 Krock I expected some kind of "OUCH!" but this is good too :)
18:55 Krock Wilhelm Scream, for example
18:59 nrzkt github down in france because SERVFAIL in DNS... :(
18:59 nrzkt who is the operator \o`
19:00 Krock \o` = Zeno`
19:00 nrzkt backslash Zeno :) thanks Krock
19:01 Krock operator? Looks more like voice to me
19:01 Krock np
19:01 \o` heh, yeah voice
19:02 garywhite o/
19:02 \o` \o/
19:02 nrzkt voice yes :)
19:03 paramat so, we're still looking for some hero to complete #4530
19:03 ShadowBot paramat: Error: Delimiter not found in "Page is too big or the server took too much time to answer the request."
19:04 paramat "Fix superflous shader setting updates"
19:04 \o` #4530
19:05 ShadowBot \o`: Error: Delimiter not found in "Page is too big or the server took too much time to answer the request."
19:05 \o` grr
19:05 nrzkt lol you have same problem as everybody
19:05 nrzkt https://www.dynstatus.com/incidents/nlr4yrr162t8
19:06 paramat https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4530
19:06 \o` oh that one. I'm staying clear of it :(
19:07 paramat i might have to bug hmmmm
19:09 paramat greg est and the 'ninj don't have time
19:11 sofar nobody can read PRs atm :)
19:11 sofar I'm surprised I even get mail messages delivered from github atm
19:11 sofar since smtp servers can't reverse lookup the origin
19:14 \o` I read the PR
19:15 \o` github is working fine for me
19:15 \o` although I've noticed that it's not for a lot of people (not only mentioned here but in other channels)
19:16 \o` rock and roll (apparently) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSKJQ18ZoIA
19:17 * \o` dances on his desk
19:17 Krock babala allahu ahkbar ala
19:19 nrzkt \o`, in australia problems are far away from US :p
19:20 \o` nrzkt, yeah they are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csaUvkYOkLY
19:21 \o` I remember that song fondly from the soundtracker version on Amiga lol
19:22 \o` we should really add tracker support, but it's not as easy as I first thought it might be
19:23 \o` on the Amiga a soundtracker player was short and sweet... but on PC it's very complicated (almost, if not have to, emulate the sound Amiga's chip)
19:24 \o` I'm halfway there using raspberry pi
19:24 \o` if it all turns out ok I can port it to minetest
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19:30 nrzkt \o`, i think we should port MT on Amiga *joke*
19:32 \o` it might be a joke... but it's not impossible (well maybe not onto the 68k amigas)
19:32 \o` to modern AmigaOS it's probably possible
19:33 nrzkt \o`, and MT on TI68plus ? :)
19:33 \o` lol maybe not that
19:34 \o` nrzkt, are you in france?
19:35 nrzkt ofc
19:35 \o` nrzkt, can you introduce me to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliz%C3%A9e ?
19:36 nrzkt lol, she is older than the photo now, and we didn't talk about her since hir Moi Lolita in 2001 xD
19:36 \o` heh
19:36 nrzkt i think you should look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimie_Mathy
19:37 nrzkt a very popular actress xD
19:37 \o` umm. hmmm
19:38 \o` I would look at her, but I am devoted to Alizée
19:39 nrzkt :p
19:44 \o` I should listen to French music more often. The songs not only have catchy tunes but they have deep and meaningful lyrics
19:44 \o` like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVDfmn_TMkI
19:44 est31 It makes me a bit sad that I couldn't find a cross platform library to make joysticks give force feedback on damage
19:45 est31 I think this would be really useful
19:45 est31 together with https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/pull/1336
19:45 \o` don't feel bad, est31, Ca Plane Pour Moi
19:45 sofar #1336
19:45 ShadowBot sofar: Error: Delimiter not found in "Page is too big or the server took too much time to answer the request."
19:45 sofar even the bot can't read github
19:45 est31 lol, github works for me
19:46 sofar lucky for you, your ISP has a cached github.com A record cached
19:46 sofar the rest of us are fucked
19:46 est31 1336 has title "Default: Add damage sounds"
19:46 sofar I've not seen a github page in 3 hours now
19:46 est31 "@paramat
19:46 est31 minetest member
19:46 est31 paramat commented 16 hours ago • edited
19:46 est31 Damage and falling damage sounds (one sound for both).
19:46 est31 No volume balancing or credits yet.
19:46 est31 "
19:46 \o` github works for me
19:46 \o` weird
19:46 est31 sofar: edit your host file
19:46 est31 and add ip address 192.30.253.113 for github
19:46 sofar it doesn't work from my VPS in the netherlands, nor from my VPS in germany, nor from home
19:47 sfan5 sofar: why not
19:47 est31 its dns issue
19:47 sfan5 github has been fine all the time here
19:47 sfan5 unlike twitter
19:47 sofar massive DDOS on DNS
19:47 est31 https://status.github.com/
19:47 sofar ;; Got answer:
19:47 sofar ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: SERVFAIL, id: 43371
19:47 Krock GitHub: ok, Twitter: ok
19:47 Krock OpenDNS works fine right now
19:48 nrzkt sofar, same in france
19:48 est31 github failed about two hours ago for me
19:48 est31 but now its okay again
19:48 nrzkt google DNS, opendns, root servers, orange , illiad/free, all are empty
19:48 sofar I can check from 3 countries, and yes google's dns also fails
19:49 nrzkt maybe we can try south corea or china they have cheating DNS in these countries :p
19:49 sofar actually, seems google now has it
19:49 sofar dig github.com @8.8.4.4
19:49 sofar but I don't use google dns or opendns
19:49 sofar I run my own resolver
19:49 sofar (I'm not trusting my ISP, nor would I rely on google)
19:50 nrzkt sofar, same here, my @home resolver is bound on root servers :)
19:50 sfan5 you *are* already trusting your ISP
19:50 sfan5 whether you use their DNS or not
19:50 sofar sure, I route my packets through them
19:50 nrzkt sfan5, depend on dnssec :p
19:50 sofar exactly
19:51 sofar sfan5: they are more likely to poison their own DNS cache than intercept packets to port 53
19:51 sofar if they start intercepting udp packets and modifying them, a lot of stuff will just break
19:51 sfan5 nah
19:52 sofar sfan5: frontier isn't that capable :D
19:52 sofar they're pretty bad if you ask me
19:53 sofar technically
19:53 sofar they can't even get ipv6 to work
19:53 sfan5 well it obviously depends on the equipment
19:57 est31 well in theory you could do dnssec
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20:19 \o` https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14IRDDnEPR4
20:19 \o` actually, this one is better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lur-SGl3uw8
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20:32 sofar WHOAH
20:33 sofar ITS BAAAACK
20:33 * sofar does happy dance
20:34 \o` WHOA!
20:34 \o` whoa whoa whoa: https://youtu.be/J_twh5alhxg?t=1249
20:35 \o` puff the magic dragon, lived by the sea
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20:37 est31 didnt know that frolic was an actual word
20:37 \o` yep it is
20:38 \o` I just wish they sang the whole song
20:39 sofar never saw the short form before
20:39 est31 short?
20:40 sofar always used frollic myself
20:40 sofar maybe that's just bad spelling
20:40 est31 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/frollic
20:40 est31 doesnt exist
20:40 est31 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/frolic
20:40 est31 exists
20:41 * \o` frolics
20:55 nrzkt frollic is a trademark for dogs no ?
20:55 est31 yes
21:22 \o` https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v22SPtCFck8
21:22 \o` night all
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21:51 sofar am I nuts? what methods are called when I press the `use` key?
21:52 sofar is it even doing *anything* ?
21:55 est31 its updating the control fields I tihnk
21:55 est31 think*
21:55 est31 so you can use that
21:57 sofar so that would work inside a vehicle
21:58 sofar but not to enter/leave a vehicle
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22:27 paramat any more input on game#1285 ?
22:27 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1285 -- Destroy flammable items when in fire or lava by Ferk
22:28 paramat cool
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23:21 PR4530lives paramat: will I be able to light thrown items on fire with flint and steel?
23:25 paramat no
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