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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-08-08

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:05 AnotherBrick joined #minetest-dev
00:06 DonBatman Is there a way to remove the black background from a formspec?
00:07 thePalindrome My best guess would be to draw an image underneath it.
00:08 DonBatman I want to remove it completely as I want a transparent texture
00:09 thePalindrome I don't think you can do that, but I might be wrong
00:09 DonBatman OK thanks
00:09 DonBatman If I make an issue for this would it be in Minetest or Minetest_game?
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01:09 Hijiri DonBatman: Minetest
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03:59 paramat game#1240 see discussion in linked issue
03:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1240 -- Changed snow to walkable by DonBatman
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16:53 VanessaE WILL YOU GUYS PLEASE quick fucking with how the mapgen seed is interpreted?
16:53 VanessaE how the fuck am I supposed to maintain a nice, clean map?
16:53 * VanessaE growls
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16:56 VanessaE namely I refer to mgv6
16:56 Krock it is used for the perlin noise
16:57 VanessaE I'm working on an old world that has NEVER had its seed changed, deleting some blocks to clear the area of junk, and blocks are being generated that do NOT match the existing terrain
16:57 * twoelk joins to witness a mapgen quickie
16:58 Krock looks like someone forgot to keep the compatibility
16:58 VanessaE and will you PLEASE FIX the display of huge entities so that worldedit's selection actually stays visible??
17:00 twoelk time to remind Paramat of the old request for a mapgenfix tool or code that merges borders of existing chunks in a more pleasing way
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17:11 * VanessaE fumes
17:12 twoelk that sort of reads E-fumes
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17:52 paramat VanessaE is it terrain, caves or biomes that are discontinuous? any screenshots?
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17:54 VanessaE terrain
17:54 paramat there has been no deliberate change. a screenshot would be useful
17:55 VanessaE I didn't take any screenshots, sorry, but it really just looks like typical mapblock clashing like a changed seed.
17:56 VanessaE (I mean actual terrain, of course, and not the biomes applied to it)
17:56 paramat ok
17:56 paramat presumably regenerating terrain uses the noises and flags stored in map meta txt
17:56 VanessaE so I would assume, yeah
17:58 paramat some large caves may be slightly diffrent, due to the fix for shadows cast by flying caves, and large caves somewhat shape the terrain, this is all i can think of but it would be a minor discontinuity
17:59 paramat are the discontinuities still present to be screenshotted?
18:02 VanessaE sure but if you want you can pop over to VE-Basic and check them out...soon as I figure out where I was. :P
18:02 paramat ok
18:03 VanessaE ok, I'm there.  daconcepts.com 30005
18:05 paramat ok
18:06 paramat connecting
18:07 paramat reading rules
18:07 VanessaE already granted you interact
18:07 paramat ok looking
18:08 VanessaE as you can see over here, the discontinuity is mostly the terrain; the snow on my left carried over the edge of the block for example
18:08 VanessaE over to my right, past the castle, it used to be desert until I did a /deleteblocks on the area (before putting the castle in), total biome+terrain change there.
18:09 VanessaE this whole area around the castle was desert before.
18:10 paramat eww
18:11 VanessaE yeah.
18:11 VanessaE screenshots would not have done this justice
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18:15 paramat its like roughly 2 chunks N and E of the castle
18:16 hmmmm [12:53 PM] <VanessaE> WILL YOU GUYS PLEASE quick fucking with how the mapgen seed is interpreted?
18:16 hmmmm christ almighty
18:17 hmmmm as if that's not already a stated goal to preserve reverse compat with mgv6 under all circumstances
18:17 hmmmm why don't you do mapgen work since you're so good at it
18:17 paramat yeah this is certainly terrain change, not due to caves
18:18 * VanessaE sighs
18:21 hmmmm or fuck off to Minecraft where users take it up the rear (and like it) any time Jeb decides to change the mapgen
18:21 hmmmm at least we care about our users enough to try to maintain compatibility
18:22 paramat ok thanks had a good look
18:23 VanessaE paramat: ok.  hope that was useful.
18:23 paramat i'm bemused, we are very careful to keep compat
18:25 VanessaE hmmmm: I don't even... what?  whatever this is, it's not something I have even the least bit of knowledge how to solve; I think my point was to ...well... do nothing.  save for whatever this issue is, the mapgen is fine.  why keep fucking with it?
18:26 paramat i guess other times you've used regen in mgv6 it's worked correctly?
18:27 hmmmm because we don't fuck with it intentionally
18:27 hmmmm realistically anybody working on the engine could've screwed up
18:27 VanessaE paramat: yes.  I use it only rarely and it's almost always worked in the past.  I had this same issue before, though, and I've no clue how or why it does this.
18:27 paramat ok could be a rare bizarre bug
18:27 hmmmm and it's not even considered a major problem as long as the incompatibility is contained to within interm development versions
18:28 hmmmm your fault for using bleeding edge dev versions
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18:28 VanessaE c7297e55 dated Jun 7.  This is bleeding edge?
18:29 VanessaE and the only reason I'm there is because of a chance to the IRC mod that necessitated something newer than 0.4.14-release.
18:30 hmmmm well
18:30 hmmmm good on you for finding a bug
18:30 hmmmm nobody else complained yet
18:31 VanessaE honestly, I've heard that excuse so many times in the past (elsewhere, not here) that I've taken to disregarding it.
18:32 paramat nore sfan5 game#1240 ? see discussion in issue
18:32 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1240 -- Changed snow to walkable = false by DonBatman
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18:32 hmmmm no use talking about it more
18:32 VanessaE "nobody else complained" == "nobody else *bothered to* complain"
18:32 hmmmm just file a jira and somebody'll take a look eventually </sigh>
18:35 VanessaE "take a look eventually".  and you wonder why no one else has complained?
18:36 VanessaE meanwhile I've got a damaged section of map that would take all day to fix (ask paramat, "eww" is putting it mildly).. and if I add up all of the other similarly screwed up chunks of map, I'd be at it for weeks trying to clean it up.
18:37 hmmmm hey minetest ain't paying the bills
18:37 hmmmm i got real work todo
18:38 VanessaE but, you don't play, let alone maintain a public server, so I guess you wouldn't run into this in practice.
18:39 * VanessaE facepalms
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18:43 VanessaE oh and for the record, your work, whatever it is, is no more real than the effort I put into maintaining these servers and trying to make my users happy.  that you make money while *PAY* money is not at all relevant.
18:44 VanessaE or I should say, my efforts and expenditures are no less real than your work.
18:44 VanessaE s/while/while I/
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18:50 paramat this seems like an old randomly occuring bug that is probably hard to track down
18:51 paramat and maybe regen is more likely to trigger it
18:53 VanessaE yeah, it's been around for a while.  My Creative server also has this problem, but on that one, I can't be sure if the seed has/hasn't changed at some point.  with the one I showed you, I'm 100% certain.
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21:03 Fixer slaps and panels have z-fighting underwater
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21:46 Megaf so guys, any plans on investigating and fixing the server leaks for real?
21:46 Megaf memory leaks I mean
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21:48 T4im one bigger one was actually fixed recently
21:48 T4im in _game anyway
21:49 paramat my memory use seems to rise to then stabilise at 2GB when flying over terrain
21:50 paramat perhaps the trunk cache is leaky?
21:50 T4im well it definitely was before, but sure, could still be, even after the patch
21:51 paramat game#1238
21:51 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1238 -- Default: Optimise and simplify leafdecay ABM by paramat
21:52 paramat however i'm still a little concerned about how the cache works, need to think it through more
21:52 Megaf my servers cache should be almost non existent, I made it drop the cache every couple of seconds
21:53 Megaf yet, memory use slowly rises until it is killed because OOM
21:53 T4im could be any of your mods too though
21:53 T4im your installed mods*
21:53 paramat OOM due to a mod and LuaJIT?
21:54 paramat mapgen mods can use a lot of memory due to noise
21:54 paramat especially 3D noise
21:54 T4im yea, but wouldn't that be reclaimed?
21:55 Megaf entities are also short lived
21:55 paramat LuaJIT has a low memory limit that is easily exceeded
21:56 Megaf item_entity_ttl = 10, active_object_send_range_blocks = 1, active_block_range = 1, max_block_send_distance = 3, server_unload_unused_data_timeout = 10,server_map_save_interval = 11
21:56 Megaf see? My server shouldnt use much memory
21:57 T4im all that won't protect you from a mod leaking data :)
21:57 T4im leaking memory*
21:59 Megaf Now I need to find someone who is up to test a copy of my server and see if it can find the leak...
21:59 Megaf copy of the mod folder
21:59 T4im well, in the long run, that's the profiler for
22:00 T4im its not just for modders, but also server operators
22:00 Megaf how can I use it?
22:00 T4im in the long run; right now it doesn't measure memory consumption of instruments yet
22:00 T4im I've some experimental code for that on stash
22:00 Megaf Is this it? http://dev.minetest.net/Lua_​Optimization_Tips#Profiling
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22:01 T4im no
22:01 T4im it's https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/d7060c212f3d9fb9a69719e9041fdef1f5792fef
22:02 T4im but as said, it doesn't measure memory yet
22:02 T4im but you can already use it to throw out mods that are overly CPU hungry
22:05 T4im #4343 has some improvements on that, if you feel like testing it
22:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4343 -- Profiler: Better structures, count calls, measure relative usage by t4im
22:06 T4im I'll add the memory measurements, as soon as i feel comfortable for the code to run on a server
22:21 T4im that optimization page has quite a few errors, btw O_o, who to talk to about that?
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22:23 rubenwardy These PRs are updated and awaiting reviews: #4416 #4417 #4294
22:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4416 -- Formspecs: Fix background elements from interferring with each other by rubenwardy
22:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4417 -- Formspecs: Add text field enter key event, allow fields to disable form close on enter by rubenwardy
22:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4294 -- Formspecs: Add container[] and container_end[] elements by rubenwardy
22:24 rubenwardy unreliable internet, so i may disappear
22:24 paramat rubenwardy game#1240 ?
22:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1240 -- Changed snow to walkable = false by DonBatman
22:24 rubenwardy I'm currently looking at that
22:25 rubenwardy just wanted to make sure there where no other types than that and snowblock and dirt_with_snow
22:25 T4im btw, why not make the liquid viscosity setting available to all nodes? that way you could make that snow people even slow down a little bit
22:26 T4im or do nodeboxes work for liquids by any chance? x)
22:28 paramat there was a PR here for cobwebs that did that
22:28 T4im yea, cobwebs in homdecor are liquids, too iirc
22:29 rubenwardy Is it okay to use github's squash and merge if it commits don't need to be kept separate and there are no conflicts?
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22:30 paramat unsure, i always merge the traditional way
22:30 paramat am perhaps unnecessarily wary of that new github feature
22:31 rubenwardy heh :)
22:32 paramat 4 PRs ready to go in
22:33 paramat i can merge these if you want
22:34 rubenwardy I don't mind
22:34 rubenwardy probably best for either of us to do all in one go
22:37 paramat ok i'll do it
22:38 paramat note commit messages almost always need rewriting
22:38 paramat i'll merge these a little later
22:40 paramat 2 of these need some squashing too
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23:08 paramat the trunk cache seems unlimited in size and we now have larger and denser forests
23:10 paramat i can imagine a server could cause 5000 entries per second to be added, with several players exploring the cache could become huge during a server session
23:11 paramat the cache was added when jungles were disabled and there were just low density appletree forests (small trees)
23:12 paramat beginning to feel the cache could be removed
23:18 rubenwardy VanessaE, why did you close all of your issues?
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23:26 paramat ! maybe because there was an argument earlier
23:27 paramat with all those servers Vanessa is an excellent tester and bugfinder, much appreciated
23:29 rubenwardy she's also made some big important mods, and maintained some too, like pipeworks and homedecor
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