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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-07-30

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Time Nick Message
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02:03 paramat will merge #4374 #4381 in a moment
02:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4374 -- Document how to properly clear node metadata by mtango688
02:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4381 -- Create texture_packs.txt + document special textures by rubenwardy
02:11 paramat now merging
02:15 paramat done
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11:19 Krock Fast! We need two more pulls to revive page 7
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19:10 VanessaE anyone awake here?
19:11 VanessaE sofar (et al.), http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/21548693/  um, wut?
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19:16 Krock VanessaE, that's a homedecor error
19:16 VanessaE yeah I figured, but my point being, the traceback doesn't indicate what failed in the mod
19:16 Krock vector.add(a, b) was called with a being a table and b = nil
19:16 VanessaE (and vector stuff isn't my code so I've no idea where to look)
19:16 Krock doing lookups in the builtin code is very helpful sometimes ;)
19:17 Krock builtin/common/vector.lua then simply ctrl+F
19:19 VanessaE hm... shouldn't the vector code have caught this gracefully?
19:19 VanessaE b != table, so it assumes b = numeric...
19:19 Krock yep. what should it do when it's nil
19:20 Krock nil is obviously an error
19:20 VanessaE treat b as 0?
19:20 VanessaE (and throw a warning)
19:20 Krock the target of vector.add is to add a vector and vector/number. Using a nil value there is wrong. Nobody uses nil there
19:21 Krock it's another thing when you initialize ItemStack, as example
19:21 VanessaE looks like it was thrown while handling a homedecor door or gate
19:21 VanessaE (there are only two vector.add() calls in homedecor, in doors_and_gates.lua)
19:21 T4im the stracktrace doesn't say this is from homedecor
19:21 VanessaE yes it does
19:21 T4im it's falling nodes
19:22 VanessaE first line
19:22 VanessaE doesn't it?
19:22 T4im that's probably just the last mod that was running when it happened
19:24 T4im maybe homedecor happens to do something somewhere down that stacktrace causing a callback, but the stacktrace is too short to know that for sure
19:24 Krock something has the drawtype2 = wallmounted
19:24 Krock and it failed to convert the rotation to a facedir
19:25 VanessaE the homedecor function that was running at the time of the crash is used in so many places that I have no hope of debugging this :-/
19:26 Krock there is a way to debug it
19:26 T4im well that could be one reason, but only if wallmounted is > 5 or < 0
19:26 Krock there's no other possibility
19:26 Krock 1 moment.. writing a diff to debug this
19:27 T4im nothing really catches param2's that are insane
19:27 T4im nothing prevents it either
19:28 T4im VanessaE: how often does it happen?
19:28 VanessaE a param2 that's "insane" sure is the result of either map corruption (unlikely) or maybe a node that had wallmount facedir and is now undefined or not wallmount anymore
19:28 VanessaE (maybe a sign or a ladder)
19:28 VanessaE T4im: first I've seen of it.
19:28 VanessaE homedecor's pretty stable, as is the server this occurred on
19:29 Krock http://pastebin.com/jxB7EHjk
19:29 T4im maybe a voxelmanip gone rogue?
19:29 T4im Krock: that's why I asked how often it happens :p
19:29 T4im if that is rare, that debug statement won't help much
19:29 Krock T4im, that's the way to detect if it happens more often after it crashed the first time
19:30 Krock yes, it could be caused by vmanip or anything else..
19:32 T4im I'll add a few smoketests to check if expected param-ranges are messed up on normal node placements already, maybe that will already show something in homedecor or _game etc
19:33 T4im you could very well never notice it, until you attach it to a falling node
19:33 Krock yeah
19:37 agaran would be nice if on punch or similar node-centric tracebacks contain at least node name..
19:39 VanessaE the only other thing the log has before that crash, aside from showing everyone leaving, was someone placing a bookshelf, and then a block of cement.
19:39 VanessaE (gloopblocks:cement that is, which is afaik a normal node like cobble)
19:40 T4im neither being attached nor falling, iirc
19:40 VanessaE correct.
19:44 VanessaE the only thing in the range of the last placed node that could be "attached" is some homedecor skylights (raillike)
19:44 VanessaE and those have no special code
19:44 VanessaE I'm at a total loss here
19:45 VanessaE T4im: can you sign onto 30008 and teleport to my location?  maybe you can see what I'm not?
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19:56 VanessaE T4im: the aforementioned log, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/21553337/
19:56 VanessaE last ~8 mins worth because I couldn't see a good place to stop :)
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20:50 VanessaE BINGO!
20:51 VanessaE T4im: I reproduced it
20:51 T4im noticed :o
20:51 T4im how?
20:51 VanessaE I placed the dartboard, then executed a worldedit //luatransform to force its param2 to 13
20:51 VanessaE then dug the sand
20:51 T4im ah, ok, yea ok, the question would be, how the player could do that though
20:52 T4im :D
20:52 VanessaE I have no idea.
20:52 T4im we already knew it was an illegal wallmount value
20:52 paramat heh
20:52 VanessaE unless the replacer or the screwdriver somehow rotated it without restriction?
20:52 VanessaE now the REAL question:  who's fault is this? :)
20:52 T4im screwdriver I can't imagine, it really checks for facedir as a paramtype2
20:53 VanessaE what else could do it on that server though?
20:53 VanessaE there's no pipeworks, technic, or mesecons, so no node placers or command blocks.
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20:56 Flear i may get be laughed at for asking this, ... oh well, ... new to programming, wanting to start off with a voxel game, ... minetest seems as good a place to start as anywhere, ... except in any situation i've come across, learning programming, everywhere seems (and i could be wrong) to all say "start like anyone else, with books, materials, and building source that has nothing to do with
20:56 Flear what you really want to accomplish"
20:57 VanessaE Flear: this is more a #minetest question but the answer is:  learn Lua from the PiL or the Programming Lua tutorial, and read up on the minetest API reference.  you can get started easily from minetest_game content
20:57 Flear so grabbing the source from git-hub, ... in there any simpler way to figure out what each thing is or am i being redirected to "start with the basics, like we did, that have nothing to do with what you really want to accomplish
20:57 VanessaE try copying the definition for cobble, and modify it to suit
20:58 Flear first thing i was thinking was switching from cube to docecahedron
20:58 Flear i'd still have to know what file(s) have the code for cubes
20:58 celeron55 :D
20:58 T4im :D that would require massive changes in the entire engine, Flear
20:58 VanessaE minetest_game/mods/default/nodes.lua
20:58 celeron55 sorry but this is ridiculous
20:59 paramat yeah start with modifying mods, this will help you learn lua
20:59 VanessaE but yeah, you're not gonna get anything but a cube-based world in MT but you CAN make meshes in any shape you want
20:59 VanessaE so you can make it look like it's composed of dodec's or whatever else, but it won't truly be.
20:59 paramat with lua mods you can make huge changes to Minetest easily
20:59 jin_xi learn to read code and use grep, its a fun thing but you need to take it slow
20:59 VanessaE yup
21:00 celeron55 Flear: minetest is heavily optimized for a cubical world and almost all code depends on the assumption that the world is made of cubes
21:00 Flear so can change the visual voxel, but not the actual one without rewriting the entire game, ... hmmm, ... well, that's a good place to start, ... not rewriting the entire thing, but going back to vanessa's idea
21:00 celeron55 Flear: it would be a massive project to change that
21:00 VanessaE Flear: that's correct.  the whole world is a rectilinear grid, but you can put any shapes you want in the cels.
21:00 VanessaE cells*
21:00 T4im yea
21:01 jin_xi you could just have loosely packed whatevers in the same grid for an airy feeling
21:01 VanessaE Flear: there's a mod on the forums that uses meshes to create smooth landscapes using slopes of various kinds, for example.
21:01 Flear i assume changing the size of the voxel is going to be a mix of camera only
21:03 Flear having the world wrap around is far smarter an idea than building an actual round world i guess as well
21:03 VanessaE T4im: I'm still at a loss as to what ordinary-user-accessible tool could set a node's param2 like that...
21:03 VanessaE Flear: the world doesn't wrap.
21:03 VanessaE (though this has been proposed before)
21:03 T4im paramat actually generated planets with mapgen iirc, but gravity won't change around it
21:04 T4im so you'd actually fall if you were in australia
21:04 paramat i have gravity changing per planet now
21:04 T4im oh?
21:04 T4im how :o
21:04 paramat well changing in strength
21:04 T4im ah
21:04 paramat sorry
21:04 Flear vanessa, no, but it should be relatively easy to do
21:05 VanessaE Flear: it's been assumed that this would be rather difficult, actually.  but you're welcome to try
21:05 VanessaE (I figure X/Z wrap is all that would be needed)
21:05 paramat Flear https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=50&amp;t=12889 see screenshots, all lua
21:05 Flear vanessa, its easy enough, ... ya, far beyond my current skills,
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21:06 Flear most discussions out on the net about getting worlds to wrap around are assuming crazy insane complexities, ... i found one talk of how simple it is, ... i don't remember, but i agree (even without knowing how) it's easy enough
21:06 paramat for world wrap you'll need a custom lua mapgen and clever use of perlin noise
21:07 paramat there's lots of discussion in the forum on this subject
21:08 Flear to get seemless wrapping is simple, been done by many over the years with basic graphics (for those who make the attempt) long before voxel games exists,
21:08 OldCoder I've noticed a hard lockup of perhaps 2 minutes for server announce to list in 0.4.14. Is this now normal and expected?
21:09 * OldCoder has asked this a few times
21:11 Flear k, ... anyway, more related to what i am looking for, ... the individual files in the minetest source, ... is it trial and error to figure out what all the files pertain to, or anything to get me a gentle push in the right direction ?
21:12 paramat all you can do is stare at it for years
21:12 VanessaE paramat: and then go insane? :)
21:12 jin_xi again, grep is a tool to search text and can be used to great advantage and cut the for years part down
21:12 OldCoder to mere months
21:12 paramat then one day i suddenly understood the mapgen code
21:13 VanessaE Flear: now, to be fair, I learned to code on an old 8-bitter, using mostly magazines and programming manuals that were available for the platform.  of course, that was BASIC, with line numbers, yet.  Lua is at least as easy though.
21:13 OldCoder Lua=easy C++=nope
21:13 VanessaE so really, the "read the manuals, do it the way we did" as you put it, really is about the only way to go.
21:14 VanessaE indeed, forget C++ for now.  start with Lua./
21:14 Krock or load a C module in Lua :3
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21:15 paramat well, i learnt lua through experimenting with mods, never looked at a manual
21:15 paramat so you can do it that way
21:15 Flear i'm hoping for a 50/50 of that, ... have the minetest code, then going through "read the manuals" like you all did, so i know what i'm looking at, ...
21:16 jin_xi ugh. i found lua to be very weird coming from other languages. manual absolutely needed. idioms like reverse table, very weird at first
21:17 VanessaE jin_xi: the only thing I found weird about Lua, and handy at the same time, was the way it handles values passing between functions
21:17 VanessaE (pass-by-reference don't they call it?)
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21:25 Flear would i sound overly annoying if i asked for help on compiling ? ... going through things now so i'm not asking for a step-by-step
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21:29 Flear minetest is (sounds like) programmed for x86, any known issues building for x64 ?
21:31 VanessaE compiling is pretty easy - cmake . <various options> ; make ; sudo make install
21:31 VanessaE the various options are stuff like -DRUN_IN_PLACE, -DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX, etc.
21:31 Flear i would think those are explained, just have to find them while i read
21:32 VanessaE here's how I build, for example:  http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/21563648/
21:32 Flear i'm a windows user :/ ... i wish i was familiar with linux, despite certain frustrations that amount to "get with the times"
21:32 VanessaE (line 9 is just a thing to let me force a full rebuild)
21:33 VanessaE ew.
21:33 VanessaE Linux isn't hard to use these days, certainly no worse than Windows :)
21:34 Krock compiling on Linux is quite easy but you'd have to spend some hours in setting it up on Windows :3
21:34 Flear it's the changeover, ... what i am familiar with is all in windows, ... and dual-boot means shutting down one to go to the other, ... or going to an emulator
21:35 Flear krock, ... tell me about it, ... :(, ... hours, or days if things just aren't working & you don't know why you can't find a particular thing, ... so the GCC ported over in MinGW
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21:35 VanessaE Flear: I always advise Linux for the underlying OS, and a virtual machine for Win if you really must have it
21:36 Flear currently a partition layout and sandbox environment in windows to isolate programs so i maintain stability (windows is crap for stability)
21:36 Flear well windows is great for stability, ... till you install a program, any program, any one at all, then windows is crap
21:37 Flear i've found a way to keep my stability
21:37 Flear it just locks me into windows that little bit more :(
21:37 celeron55 http://dev.minetest.net/Category:Core
21:38 celeron55 i don't know about you others but i would say this is a good first read if someone wants to understand the engine
21:39 Flear thanks :)
21:46 Flear i'm better off going through an emulator with linux installed aren't i ?
21:52 paramat for minetest, yes
21:55 Flear now i need a high-end emulator, ... ones i have (for sandbox compatability) don't support x64
21:55 Flear dual boot, ... argg
21:56 Flear yes, i know, wrong room, ... ideas for low resource consumption linux distro's, ... rather specifically so i can run an emulator for windows in ?
21:56 agaran hmm I recompiled minetest on 32bit machine.. server works fine..
21:59 Flear ya, ... it's the compiler part i am having issues with, ... well this time visual studio is actually installing instead of giving up right away
22:00 Flear maybe, ... seems to be stuck at net framework 4.6.1, ... which was the same issue it had before >:(
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22:04 Flear i can do a lot with my computer, ... i could do much more if i was willing to sacrifice my OS stability and speed, ... because i am stubborn about my speed and stability, it imposes restrictions on what i can do
22:06 Flear i would have switched to linux long ago if i still had access the the applications i am familiar with
22:06 VanessaE that's why you use it as your base OS and use a virtual machine for the windows stuff, until you get used to the Linux equivalents.
22:08 VanessaE T4im: abrac managed to cause that crash again
22:12 Flear previously, every time i wanted to get into linux the installers made little distinction on informing me on what i was installing, ... dependancies vs. the actual programs, and little information on what the actual programs were, ... leaving me putting in everything from the installer, and then running it was now confusing as i had no idea what anything was and there was way too many
22:12 Flear programs to pick through, ... every few years i made the attempt, every time i gave up in frustration, ... i would say the installers have gotten smarter. but "smarter" is a relative term, ...
22:13 Flear i know there is a huge importance in the linux community about fairness and equality about not promoting any particular program over others, ... but come-on, give me a place to start, even if it's a crap program so i want to find something better, at least it's a place to start
22:14 Flear needless to say i still use windows
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22:17 Flear closed wrong box :)
22:21 T4im VanessaE: does he know how? O_o
22:22 paramat please can non-mt-dev discussion (linux/windows/emulators) move to #minetest channel? thanks
22:23 VanessaE T4im: no, but actually he was trying to remove the nodes you and I placed, so the last time I triggered the crash, they weren't removed.  Same thing two times after, so I worldedit'ed them out.
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22:33 nolsen Lightning bug: http://imgur.com/a/xR5gc
22:34 paramat moretrees in mgv7?
22:34 nolsen paramat: Yes.
22:34 nolsen Why?
22:34 nolsen Is moretrees already added?
22:35 paramat https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3421
22:36 paramat l-system's use of 'updateLighting()' causes shadows, worse in non-mgv6 mapgens
22:36 paramat bugs in both l-system and updateLighting
22:37 paramat no moretrees is not added to mtgame
22:39 paramat l-system causes subtle shadows in mgv6 too
22:44 paramat sofar game#1220 ? also i'm considering merging your coral PR so i/we can start improving it (extra colour(s) tune distribution)
22:44 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1220 -- Move paper, books and book shelves into separate mod by rubenwardy
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23:42 nolsen 2016-07-30 19:42:12: WARNING[Server]: active block modifiers took 412ms (longer than 200ms)
23:42 nolsen Normal behavior?
23:46 paramat just a warning of an intensive ABM, some ABMs might be slow
23:46 nolsen Is there anything I can do about it?
23:46 VanessaE get a faster CPU? :)
23:47 T4im when you start up the profiler you should even see, which one it is
23:47 nolsen VanessaE: Okay, let me yell at digitalocean
23:47 nolsen "DigitalOcean, Y U NO 2GHZ?
23:47 nolsen "
23:47 paramat it's not necessarily a problem, but if possible try makng the ABM simpler
23:47 VanessaE nolsen: otherwise, check into the code you're running and see if you can rewirte some slow ABM
23:47 VanessaE rewrite*
23:47 nolsen I actually have no clue what could it be
23:47 nolsen I have like 120 mods installed.
23:47 T4im the profiler does
23:49 nolsen lag
23:49 nolsen er
23:49 nolsen hm, strange
23:49 nolsen no output
23:49 T4im profiler.load = true -- then you can use /profiler print
23:50 T4im but you'll have to restart the game for it to take effect
23:50 T4im and I am assuming you have a recent build, otherwise you'd have to wait a bit, I guess :/

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