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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-07-18

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Time Nick Message
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03:11 paramat merging game 1190
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03:26 paramat merged
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12:59 everamzah #1205 maybe i like opening them as much as he likes closing them
12:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1205 -- Make config honor build system specified config defines by sapier
12:59 everamzah game#1205
12:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1205 -- Deprecations warnings in default mod
12:59 everamzah maybe it's a simple name switch, easy enough
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14:52 Fixer !tell paramat any progress on get_biome_info function?
14:52 ShadowBot Fixer: O.K.
15:03 Fixer https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3810 this one is rotting away
15:05 Krock and with it 138 other pull requests
15:20 Fixer this one "needs action"
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16:51 VanessaE ok, guys...that static view range thing is NOT working worth a shit.
16:52 VanessaE we need to re-instate the auto-range feature/
16:52 Calinou why?
16:52 Calinou Minecraft uses static view range, works well :P
16:53 VanessaE because it sucks having to flick from 30m in one area to 150 in another
16:53 VanessaE especially if you're hopping between servers and/or switching clients a lot
16:59 celeron55 does there exist feedback about this from other users? i haven't looked
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16:59 VanessaE celeron55: not directly, but I have seen a few vague complaints that peoples' FPS is unreasonably low, with the advice being to adjust the view range.
17:00 celeron55 if it is a common complaint, then i guess just put it back
17:00 VanessaE (recently that is, post-static-range)
17:00 VanessaE I don't think you could "just put it back" though, wasn't it pretty widely accepted among core devs that the previous implementation was unacceptable?
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17:20 paramat Vanessa, remember that many people rightly complained about auto view range, including yourself. having to manually adjust something is not a problem, except one of laziness. auto doesn't work, so it has to be manual. i find it a huge improvement
17:21 paramat Fixer hmmmmm says he will implement 'get biome at point'
17:21 VanessaE paramat: indeed I did.  but I believe I also expressed distaste for the idea of removing it altogether.
17:21 everamzah view_range, then view_range_extended, then bind a toggle key.  additionally, uncache fov, make fov_extended, optionally map to view_range extension = zoom
17:22 VanessaE it does NOT have to be manual.  it has to be automatic because manual ranging sucks when you're actually playing the game.
17:22 VanessaE 30 here, 45 there, 150 in this other area, shit I just turned around and need to drop it back to 50...
17:22 VanessaE this is how it actually is in a production environment.
17:22 everamzah i do find myself hitting +/- a lot
17:23 everamzah better to drop view_range than to drop frames, imo
17:23 VanessaE exactly.
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17:24 paramat a toggle between 2 values could be good though
17:24 VanessaE no, useless.
17:24 VanessaE it needs to be continuously variable.
17:24 sofar doesn't the engine drop blocks that are behind the player aggressively?
17:25 VanessaE sofar: not so agressively that you won't find yourself turning around and seeing too much detail for the current view ranghe
17:29 VanessaE paramat: I recall there being a suggestion that the view range auto-tuner should try, when the player turns, to predict what the range needs to be ahead of time (and err on the side of short range so as not to let the view ever get choppy)
17:30 paramat auto either adjusted too fast or too slow, nothing seemed to work, many players disabled it through settings, i did for over a year. manual adjustment may be a little irritating but it's an improvement. if in a heavy-load area keep it low most of the time
17:30 paramat well that's even more complex and will have it's own problems
17:30 VanessaE if "nothing seemed to work", then the auto-tuner needed rewriting entirely, rather than being disabled.
17:31 VanessaE it's not just "a little irritating", it's "this game sucks, I have to keep hitting this stupid key every 5 seconds"
17:31 VanessaE not that I think that way, but that's what the users are doubtlessly thinking
17:31 VanessaE I mean, that's practically Rule 0.  do not irritate your userbase.
17:32 everamzah where is that written?  i only know about 'comes without warranty, use at your own risk'
17:32 VanessaE everamzah: um, common courtesy? :)
17:34 paramat too bad, i find myself hitting WASD often too, that sucks, it should be automatic ;)
17:35 VanessaE um...
17:35 VanessaE non-sequitur.
17:35 paramat that's also imagining what players think
17:35 * VanessaE sighs
17:37 VanessaE players know the difference between controls you should need, and extra controls you don't need.  besides, tablets don't have +/- keys for them to hit.
17:37 paramat yeah i was being sarcastic
17:37 VanessaE sorry, sarcasm isn't really wanted here.  I'm being completely serious.
17:38 paramat we don't care much about touchscreen devices, we're almost dropping android. anyway +/- can be added for touchscreen
17:39 paramat auto range was removed for farmap also
17:39 VanessaE playing the game and having to fuck with the +/- keys so often is like driving your car and having to reach for the radio volume control repeatedly during a song - you're already busy with something important, you shouldn't have to take your eyes off of it.  in the case of car radios, they fixed that issue with automatic velocity-sensitive volume control and the "Loud" (audio range compression) setting.
17:40 VanessaE farmap doesn't even exist...
17:40 paramat it's also like driving with manual transmission, which we europeans do fine
17:40 VanessaE and we DO care about touchscreen devices.
17:40 VanessaE 80% of my userbase uses tablets/phones.
17:41 VanessaE you don't have to take your eyes off of what you're doing to shift gears.....
17:41 VanessaE (and I am quite aware of how to drive a 'stick' as we call it here)
17:41 celeron55 VanessaE: well the previous implementation was made by me for my super-slow laptop
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17:41 celeron55 so it should work
17:41 VanessaE celeron55: you mean the old old implementation that took a long time to auto-adjust?
17:42 celeron55 the one that existed until it didn't
17:42 VanessaE (not trying to disparage, btw)
17:42 VanessaE ok.
17:42 celeron55 i don't even know when this change was done
17:42 est31 early this year i think
17:42 VanessaE celeron55: I don't remember, somewhere just after 0.4.13 went out I think
17:42 est31 during RBA's last period of activity
17:43 Fixer i disliked autorange: it has 1) look back problem 2) fluctuating field of view when going forward making stuff blink
17:43 Fixer better fix pr #3770 that can improve performance a lot
17:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3770 -- Fix superflous shader setting updates by ShadowNinja
17:47 VanessaE if you don't like auto-range, turn it off.
17:47 VanessaE but for those of us who liked it, there's no way to "turn it back on".
17:48 paramat we did, permanently :)
17:48 VanessaE hence removing the feature was a bad idea.
17:48 paramat with huge support
17:48 VanessaE "huge support" being what, three people?
17:48 VanessaE I'm sorry.  it was a mistake and it needs to be corrected.
17:49 VanessaE paramat: you don't play on any servers, do you?
17:49 T4im preferring fps drop to range drop having huge support? O_o
17:49 VanessaE T4im: exactly.
17:49 VanessaE feature disabled for all with no way to turn it back on?  FAIL.
17:49 paramat you complained just as hard about auto range
17:50 VanessaE paramat: I complained specifically about its tendency to be wrong about the needed view distance.
17:50 VanessaE not the fact that it existed.
17:51 paramat on a server people will learn to keep range low in some areas, then it doesn't bounce around
17:51 VanessaE it tended to err on the side of too much range, mainly because it seemed not to take some things into account when calculating it, like how shaders can slow down FPS.
17:51 VanessaE *sigh* you never experience the variation of open terrain versus built-up cities.
17:52 paramat it's only a problem if a player raises range too high
17:52 VanessaE the default is 100, which is too high for a city and too low for open terrain.
17:52 VanessaE and you didn't answer my question.
17:53 VanessaE do you, or don't you play regularly on public servers?
17:53 paramat i rarely play on servers
17:53 VanessaE I believe you've just made my case for me :)
17:53 paramat the default is meaningless, players find their own value
17:54 VanessaE most of my users *can't* find their own value
17:54 VanessaE there's no value to find.
17:54 paramat i understand the issues
17:54 VanessaE but you're not willing to entertain a proper solution.
17:55 VanessaE what good is it to understand then?
17:55 VanessaE sorry to sound bitter..
17:55 paramat they need to set it low enough for city and keep it there when around cities, not difficult
17:55 VanessaE *sigh*
17:55 VanessaE it's far more difficult than you think.
17:56 T4im you assume, they know how to change it
17:56 T4im consider that on many servers you spawn first time in densely settled/built areas, which means the default is usually not low enough for new players: they join, don't know about +/- yet, and just get fps drops and leave minetest entirely
17:56 paramat manual adjustment is not much of a problem, it's a relief to choose the right level, and those keys are easily used without looking
17:56 VanessaE paramat: then re-institute auto-range and keep it locked to something you like.
17:56 VanessaE don't spoil it for the rest of us.
17:57 VanessaE T4im: exactly.
17:57 paramat no loss if stupid players leave
17:57 T4im not stupid players, players new to the game
17:57 VanessaE are they stupid?  or are they uneducated-about-minetest?
17:57 VanessaE should they also leave if they can't figure out that T, / or F10 brings down the chat console?
17:57 T4im or maybe uneducated *and* stupid players :D
17:59 paramat anyway if a good auto can be found it could be an option sure
18:02 Calinou if Minetest can't handle view range 100 on today's low-end hardware, or yesterday's mid-end hardware, there definitely is a problem.
18:02 Calinou Minecraft could handle view range over 200 with the same hardware
18:02 paramat +/- should certainly be presented clearly as an essential control known from the start
18:03 paramat well the load is due to built-up areas
18:03 paramat with lots of nodeboxes etc
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18:07 Fixer_ 1) PR #3770 or 2) disable shaders by default after all
18:07 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3770 -- Fix superflous shader setting updates by ShadowNinja
18:07 Fixer_ disabling shaders greatly improves performance
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18:18 Fixer_ without shaders can achieve reasonable fps in cities with vrange 160
18:18 Fixer_ on hd6870
18:18 paramat shaders should be disabled by default yes
18:19 paramat i'm surprised they're not
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18:20 paramat i guess you mean the basic nodes shader, with no options enabled
18:21 Calinou right now, you get the same look of the same with and without shaders for most things
18:21 Calinou ...save for water in caves that can flicker, IIRC
18:27 paramat as far as i understand the basic shader just adjusts day/night/artificial colours and brightness
18:30 Fixer_ disabling them doubles my vrange, roughly
18:31 Fixer_ Calinou: water flicker (in squares) was fixed, but some flickering of torches underwater or other parts of water still appears
18:31 paramat that might be translucecy issues?
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18:39 paramat closed game#1195
18:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1195 -- Sapling height check before growth by tenplus1
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18:54 Fixer_ paramat: " basic shader just adjusts day/night/artificial colours and brightness" yes, but more I think about this I think the price is too high...
18:56 paramat so you think disable by default?
18:58 Fixer_ yes, let me look fps penalty
18:58 Fixer_ I remember it was quite big
18:59 paramat perhaps open a PR for this for more discussion?
18:59 paramat i +1 this
19:00 Fixer_ paramat: i even created forum topic long ago: https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=6&t=13763
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19:02 Fixer_ paramat: you loose 30-35% of fps with just basic shader enabled
19:03 Fixer_ with literally the same picture
19:03 Fixer_ except for transition of night and day
19:03 Fixer_ I will check the difference on new version with vbo
19:04 paramat ok i think let's do it. many new players complain of low FPS and we end up advising shaders be disabled
19:05 paramat if you make a PR i'll +1
19:05 Fixer_ i can create issue fast, but not pr, even for one line i will need to study manuals and it will take ages
19:05 Fixer_ let me play without shaders a bit
19:05 Fixer_ too study possible problems
19:07 Fixer_ tested one scene on actual server, my last standing position: 38 fps (default shader setting) vs 63 fps (shaders off), default config
19:08 Fixer_ pic of scene: https://i.imgur.com/bEuAVVx.png
19:09 VanessaE Fixer_: you want an acid test, go to my Creative server (30000) and look north from the spawn.
19:09 Fixer_ VanessaE: can do that
19:09 VanessaE You will have a very hard time exceeding 30 fps there, even at very short view ranges
19:10 Fixer_ VanessaE: does it have technic or mesecons?
19:10 VanessaE it does.
19:10 paramat ok issue is fine
19:11 VanessaE but bear in mind that nearly all mods that used "tons of nodeboxes" as paramat described before, have long since been updated to use meshes
19:12 Fixer_ rendering difference: https://i.imgur.com/bEuAVVx.png (shaders off), https://i.imgur.com/lw7FAzA.png (basic shader on, default)
19:13 Fixer_ shaders "on" version has slightly brighter shadows
19:14 Fixer_ VanessaE: i will go to your spawn
19:15 VanessaE I noticed the slight difference in brightness.
19:15 Fixer_ yes
19:15 Fixer_ need to compare in dark areas too
19:15 VanessaE heh, RBA would shit a brick if he were still alive, talking about disabling shaders by default
19:16 Fixer_ VanessaE: yeas, because I talked to him about this iirc
19:16 Fixer_ VanessaE: but fps price can be too high
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19:16 VanessaE yeah.
19:16 Fixer_ 38 vs 63 in just this scene is a big difference
19:17 VanessaE that's been my experience as well.  something like 15% difference in FPS.
19:17 VanessaE and that's with a very fast video card.
19:17 Fixer_ in this scene it is 40% diff
19:19 paramat nore sfan5 sofar Tesseract do you agree nyancat texture names should be corrected? game#1201
19:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1201 -- Nyancat textures incorrectly named
19:20 VanessaE paramat: don't change the texture names.
19:24 VanessaE this is change for the sake of change.  don't mess with it.  naming textures according to their mods is not a rule.  it's a strongly-encouraged guideline.
19:26 Fixer_ VanessaE: still pretty big difference in fps
19:27 Fixer_ default settings: https://i.imgur.com/pJgmKZV.png, shaders off: https://i.imgur.com/09YIbb7.png
19:28 Fixer_ up to 50% fps down
19:29 Fixer_ VanessaE: i rarely exceeded 30 fps with shaders off btw, ati hd6870
19:29 Fixer_ VanessaE: smth strange with fog, compare two screenshots
19:29 VanessaE toldya.
19:29 paramat dev activity attracting attention is a ridiculous argument, there's already been much discussion and PRs, might as well just do it quickly with no further discussion then. this is also lazy, changing names is quick and texture packs already need regular updating. retaining names for a minor saving of effort will result in a mess later
19:30 VanessaE paramat: while the style varies from one server to another, that ^^^^ is about what most of my servers look like around their spawn areas.
19:31 paramat i know
19:31 VanessaE paramat: suit yourself.
19:33 VanessaE it won't take me more than a few mins to rename the textures in my packs, I just ...don't think it's a smart move.
19:33 VanessaE nor was moving the nyan to its own mod.
19:33 VanessaE is/was
19:34 paramat shaders off looks fine to me, no worse
19:35 paramat i'll open a PR
19:35 VanessaE the copyright/attracting attention argument is precisely why the images are as they are now - I redrew them in my own, similar style, from scratch, with different colors, just enough to help keep MT off of the original author's radar.
19:35 VanessaE (meanwhile in HDX, they're derived from actual Pop Tarts and a photo of a cat I used to have)
19:37 sofar meow
19:39 VanessaE woof.
19:40 paramat cool good move
19:40 paramat #4315 should be closed, opinions?
19:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4315 -- Prevent falling nodes from getting stuck by tenplus1
19:42 Fixer_ I'm embaraced
19:42 VanessaE ?
19:42 Krock close until there might be a better fix come
19:42 Fixer_ from PR standpoint
19:42 Fixer_ public relations
19:43 Fixer_ you can word it differently
19:43 Fixer_ by disabling shaders performance increased by 100%
19:43 Fixer_ or
19:43 Fixer_ after enabling shaders performance decreased by 50%
19:44 Fixer_ i like first one :)
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19:46 paramat heh
19:47 VanessaE I'd say that it's about 50% faster for me without shaders, now.
19:47 VanessaE not sure why the difference is so much more now than before, unless shaders interfere with VBO or something.
19:56 Fixer_ https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4335
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20:11 hmmmmmm vanessae:  realbadangel's normal mapping changes
20:11 hmmmmmm i hate to say it but switching to tangent vertexes really slow stuf down
20:12 hmmmmmm paramat:  yeah that's on my list, i'm just bogged down by workie work right now
20:12 hmmmmmm plan on getting this done soon though
20:13 paramat cool
20:13 VanessaE hmmmmmm: I guess that explains it.
20:13 VanessaE RBA's work was always good, but usually half-finished :-/
20:14 Fixer_ paramat: water is blinking in both modes, so it is non issue to disable shaders at least in this regard
20:14 paramat tangent vertices are only used when normalmaps are enabled
20:14 hmmmmmm really?  i thought for some technical reason or another they were used when shaders were enabled
20:14 hmmmmmm at one point they were always enabled
20:14 paramat oh erm ..
20:14 Fixer_ i remember RBA did something to make them enabled when only certain options were used
20:15 hmmmmmm maybe
20:15 hmmmmmm idk
20:15 hmmmmmm i haevn't been keeping up
20:15 Fixer_ i remember this because i helped test it
20:15 paramat need to check the PR
20:15 Fixer_ there was big slowness bug that day
20:15 Fixer_ slow block rendering, and he fixed
20:15 hmmmmmm i think that was something different
20:15 Fixer_ and paramat ranted about tangent thing near that days
20:16 hmmmmmm like i think est told him to add reserve() calls to the vertex vectors
20:16 hmmmmmm and they made things unbearably slow
20:16 hmmmmmm so then he switched it back
20:16 hmmmmmm shrug
20:16 paramat https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/bf884e37a06e0a8dd6c31789a69921f07ec5a9a9
20:17 hmmmmmm this proves my point
20:17 hmmmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit​/bf884e37a06e0a8dd6c31789a69921f07ec5a9a9#d​iff-c2f90db5de8c33a259c27113939c63c5R1243
20:17 Fixer_ yeah, this one
20:22 paramat my issue was https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3530
20:23 hmmmmmm yup
20:23 Fixer_ that water blinking drives me crazy, and I love building underwater tunnels
20:23 hmmmmmm that was the huge regression i noticed when i came back to minetest after taking a break for a while
20:23 hmmmmmm and i got real upset about it
20:24 hmmmmmm like wtf every time i take a break and come back there's like 10 things broken and at least one huge performance regression that's near impossible to track down
20:25 paramat thing is, is tangent space really needed for basic nodes shader? i doubt it
20:25 hmmmmmm it's really hard to decouple now
20:26 hmmmmmm the old code used to calculate tangents from a big set of if statements
20:26 hmmmmmm now i think it actually calculates it using the mathy calculating way
20:27 hmmmmmm you need to basically revert part of his normal mapping commit
20:28 paramat mtgame no longer uses normalmaps but custom texture packs and subgames do
20:28 hmmmmmm i'm sure we can fix it, it just takes some effort
20:28 hmmmmmm everybody's busy though :/
20:30 Fixer_ anybody cares about this underwater-glass-whatver blinking mess? https://i.imgur.com/LrLlnsa.gif
20:31 Krock it's a shooting
20:33 sofar is that a US-based server?
20:34 paramat that's the inherent translucency issue surely? #95
20:34 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/95 -- Seeing more lava through see-through lava (no translucency depth-sorting)
20:34 paramat because water is translucent?
20:34 Fixer_ sofar: it is, why asking?
20:35 paramat heh
20:35 hmmmmmm hahaha
20:35 Fixer_ gif itself blinks funny, but it is not funny at all
20:35 hmmmmmm there must've been black ppl in that other room
20:35 Fixer_ i build that underwater tunnels
20:35 * hmmmmmm hides
20:35 Fixer_ and for what?
20:36 Fixer_ every time i increase fps or vrange, some shit creaps in
20:36 Fixer_ like blinking
20:36 Fixer_ torch blinking in water, doors whatever
20:37 Fixer_ paramat: it is some kind of translucency problem?
20:38 paramat translucent lives matter!
20:41 paramat well issue 95 occurs when viewing translucency through other translucency, so i guess viewing seperate volumes of water triggers it. but not sure why it blinks
20:50 Fixer_ but glass is not translucent, it is transperent?
20:51 Fixer_ water is transperent or translucent?
20:51 T4im transparent, but that's what he meant
20:52 hmmmmmm we define translucent as a material with an opacity of less than 255 but greater than 0
20:52 hmmmmmm a pixel with an alpha of 0 is considered transparent
20:53 hmmmmmm or, if the color matches the color key when blitted with color key transparency
20:55 T4im so an opaque node with sunlight_propagates = true isn't translucent for you? ;)
20:55 T4im slabs and such
20:56 hmmmmmm we're talking in the context of material rendering
20:56 T4im ah, ok
20:56 hmmmmmm because that's what actually matters here
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21:35 paramat i was referring to water when i said translucent
21:38 sofar "translucent" and "lets light through below nodes" are not the same thing in minetest
21:52 paramat will merge soon game#1206
21:52 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1206 -- Default/trees: Update to 'get_mapgen_setting()' by paramat
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22:39 paramat merging games 1198 1200 1206 1207
22:54 paramat done
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