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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-07-11

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Time Nick Message
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09:50 rdococ I'm making a simple power mod, kinda like mesecons. Do I need a node for each level of signal?
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15:29 everamzah game#1188
15:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1188 -- Mechanisms (levers & plates) broken
15:29 everamzah wow that was a bad title choice
15:29 * T4im takes a look
15:30 T4im can you add a stacktrace?
15:30 everamzah the output of debug.txt?
15:31 T4im well if xdecor breaks because of that, it'd be nice to see when that happens
15:31 T4im where it happens*
15:31 T4im yea, the last lines of debug.txt stack trace
15:32 everamzah T4im: done
15:32 T4im thanks
15:33 everamzah np
15:44 T4im ah, missing parameters, gonna do a pr, nice catch
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15:47 everamzah glad to help
16:08 T4im everamzah: maybe you could test 1189 and see if that fixes it?
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16:11 everamzah okie doke, will do
16:16 T4im thanks
16:19 paramat will review
16:20 rubenwardy The massiveness of the default mod makes it hard for a mod to depend on certain independent features (eg: books, mese) and makes it painful to make subgames
16:21 everamzah sorry for the delay.  yes, T4im that fixes it
16:21 T4im alright, thanks
16:21 everamzah how can i quickly try out a branch on a different remote?
16:21 everamzah i tried remote add t4im git://github.com/t4im/minetest_game
16:22 everamzah and then git pull t4im:fix/1188 but that didn't seem to do anything hehe
16:22 T4im "git fetch t4im && git checkout t4im/fix/1188"
16:22 T4im no need to pull :)
16:22 everamzah ooh, i had to fetch the checkout
16:22 everamzah okie thanks
16:22 everamzah fetch then* checkout
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16:32 rubenwardy Definite points: https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?p=224527#p224527
16:33 T4im my unit tests don't cover _game api yet :/ I should add that, it could have prevented the last issue and might reduce issues when depending on it, like you said
16:34 T4im or did you mean just gameplay wise?
16:35 rubenwardy Minetest needs to become a game. It's fine to have a basic framework for people to build upon, but that shouldn't be the only game shipped. There should be two subgames, a main one which is actually a game, and another which can act as the foundation of other subgames and mods
16:35 T4im ah, yea, minetest_game and minetest_base?
16:35 rubenwardy yeah, basically
16:36 rubenwardy and minetest_game should derive from minetest_base
16:36 T4im the issue that comes up then, is that people seem really afraid of resolving dependencies :D
16:38 T4im "now I have to check out two games for it to work?"
16:38 rubenwardy The default mod is a mega bloated fucking mess, everything thrown together. And it can't be fixed due to compatibility
16:38 T4im I remember you started trying last year, didn't you?
16:39 T4im pulling it into individual parts
16:39 rubenwardy I opened an issue about it, but that was the wrong method
16:39 everamzah same license?
16:40 rubenwardy all subgames should be the same license, as it makes things easier
16:40 T4im I doubt he meant selling _game :D
16:40 rubenwardy well, same license or lesser (such as WTFPL)
16:40 everamzah definitely agree it makes it way more difficult to do subgames
16:42 rubenwardy I didn't sell the issue on splitting up, as I busy at the time
16:42 T4im well you could do it peace by peace; or nyancat for nyancat, rather; why is that even still in default instead of a mod?
16:42 rubenwardy nyancat should definitely be a separate mod
16:42 everamzah furnace, chests (sorry)
16:43 everamzah player
16:43 rubenwardy ores in default depend on the furnace to be meaningful
16:43 everamzah definitely player.lua.  the creatures mod actually requires you to comment out that dofile line
16:43 T4im then have default depend on "furnaces"
16:43 everamzah https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=9240
16:44 T4im (although I'd say then, that furnaces as part of _base would not actually define a furnace, just provide the api to define one)
16:44 everamzah also, unrelated but new doors break the corrosponding structures mod:
16:44 T4im hm?
16:44 everamzah https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5524 <-- i guess that's the schematics?
16:45 everamzah oh shoot wrong topic
16:45 everamzah no that's it, just weird screenshot
16:45 everamzah anyway, the structures are supposed to have doors, but they're the old ones
16:45 everamzah so they come up as unknown nodes
16:46 T4im yea, doors seems to have had some issues when updating? my old world didn't manage to do that either
16:46 everamzah i assumed it was because the old doors were saved in the schematics when the last update was made to that mod, before doors mod was updated
16:47 T4im yea, but usually you'd have aliases replacing that then, and this time it was done by lbm, which apparently didn't work as planned (not sure about details)
16:47 everamzah i just thought i'd read a discussion about old doors in schems not converting being a known issue
16:48 everamzah still kinda bummy.  i mean, sad to see unknown nodes when i tried the mod again recently.  it's anice one
16:53 everamzah i'm not done reading this guy's rant yet, but, does he want his money back or what
16:56 rubenwardy game'1190
16:56 rubenwardy game#1190
16:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1190 -- Move Nyancats into a separate mod by rubenwardy
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17:21 paramat shaalazin's post on the forum is stupid :P
17:22 rubenwardy it's a bit of an over reaction
17:22 rubenwardy I admit
17:22 everamzah he's ranting about minetest_game and calling it minetest :(
17:23 rubenwardy minetest_game is pretty much Minetest
17:23 rubenwardy That's the problem
17:23 Krock yes, just about 5 characters away from being minetest
17:23 paramat i agree it would be good to have a second more complete game
17:23 rubenwardy great :D
17:26 paramat that post complains about mods, which are not the dev's responsibility
17:27 rubenwardy the post complains that Minetest is not a game, but an engine
17:27 rubenwardy the mod thing is more of a side note
17:27 rubenwardy Yes Minetest should be an engine - but there should also be a game
17:28 Calinou problem is, the game is not happening due to engine devs never playing Minetest as a game
17:28 paramat mtgame devs job is to make a base game for modding, we need more dev time to also make a complete game
17:28 rubenwardy That's why we need MTG devs that focus on the game play
17:29 paramat non-core devs can make new subgames
17:29 Krock I don't feel like Minetest goes into the nowhere...
17:30 rubenwardy can they though, paramat?
17:31 rubenwardy default is such a mega bloat that it's hard to make a game and keep correct compat
17:31 paramat heh, the author was bored in 5 mins, they don't realise it's a base for adding modules
17:31 T4im yea, discovered minetest in 5minuts, overlooked the modding system :D
17:32 T4im learned to drive in 5 minutes, overlooked the ignition
17:32 paramat subgames are not impossible to make, many have been made by non core devs
17:32 rubenwardy I suggest splitting MTG in two / making two copies it. One we'll call one Minetest Foundation or Minetest Base, and will carry on with the base for modding philosopnd
17:33 rubenwardy The other should be Minetest Game and bring real gameplay: progression etc
17:33 paramat seems reasonable
17:33 everamzah i have always wanted to do a stock minetest_game server, because i like stock minetest_game.  but it's impossible without protection and there's always water and lava everywhere.
17:33 T4im rubenwardy has a point, the only way right now to make a "good" subgame is to isolate it completely from _game and then ofcourse most other mods
17:34 T4im or to fork it
17:34 T4im and change it entirely
17:34 everamzah and call it a different name? :O
17:34 paramat but need new devs, i can barely keep up with managing the base game
17:35 Krock just force someone being a dev :P
17:35 Krock or let the users vote
17:35 T4im from what I'm seeing, you seem to keep up better than your predecessor, or not? ;)
17:35 T4im predecessors*
17:35 T4im I mean you're having PRs/Issues down to ~30 each
17:35 T4im wow!
17:36 everamzah i think everything is going swimingly personally.  make the separate, full game, called "Here's Yer Mobs"
17:36 everamzah stock minetest_game is _fun_ i really believe that.  if you start a server with no extra mods, it will fill
17:37 T4im but that's multiplayer
17:37 everamzah it's fast, and that's important.  people can build together, whatever, grief together
17:37 T4im some people might try out singleplayer first and get bored if there is no challenge, no goal
17:37 everamzah oh gosh, it's billed as a multiplayer game.  then hopefully they'll try the client tab
17:37 everamzah that seems like a logical path
17:39 everamzah huh, looks like that description was removed with the new website?  i remember it saying it was a multiplayer open sandbox game
17:39 everamzah ye, if people only play singleplayer, it should probably come with a second, fuller game with a few mobs
17:40 everamzah or just put the mobs in there with a setting
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17:41 rubenwardy My personal opinion is that MTG should for the most part aim for singleplayer / small lan games, and that server owners should customise it for their own usage
17:42 everamzah someone wanting to play a 2-player game, or more, would either have to go to the client tab or the server tab
17:42 everamzah the server tab has that Public checkbox, very tempting
17:43 paramat ugh shaalazins posts :P awful, negative, money-obsessed
17:43 everamzah the client tab, well you pick whatever one but... a lot of them require you to ask for permission
17:43 everamzah or enter a keyword in what may not be your native language
17:43 everamzah or is empty.  i always considered it very nice that it was so easy to just check "Public" and get a few ppl to play with
17:43 * paramat prepares to nuke from orbit
17:44 everamzah posterity
17:44 everamzah gl hf o/
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17:46 rubenwardy My point was that MTG should have interesting enough content to play singleplayer, and if someone wants to host a creative server with the content removed then can
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17:47 paramat yeah having 'base' and 'game' seems ok
17:48 paramat we have been asking for additional subgames but it seems nothing suitable has arisen. so perhaps a more complete 'game' could be made more official and closer to a core-dev thing, instead of waiting for modders to do it
17:49 rubenwardy I do like sofar's idea: https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=50&amp;t=13677
17:49 paramat as always, we have to wait for those interested to work on this
17:50 rubenwardy rebased and updated game#1179
17:50 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1179 -- Add simple fast inventory by rubenwardy
17:51 Calinou why don't we call the Client tab "Join Server", and Server tab "Host Server"
17:51 Calinou it sounds a bit confusing maybe
17:51 rubenwardy Yeah
17:51 T4im +1
17:51 Calinou everamzah: when you host a base minetest_game server, all you'll hear is "can you add this mod" :)
17:52 T4im Or "Play online"
17:52 T4im oh wait, that works for lan too, nvm
17:53 rubenwardy #4294
17:53 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4294 -- Add container[] and container_end[] formspec elements by rubenwardy
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17:58 T4im hm, rubenwardy, what about making "sfinv.make_formspec" varargs (formspec strings passed to table.concat)? that way people might resort less often to string concat's
17:59 T4im although strings.format would be nicer, since that safes a lot of string interning
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18:21 T4im does a nyancat count as decoration?
18:22 paramat i was just thinking about that, yes but can't be placed by current deco code
18:22 paramat not even schematics
18:24 paramat could use lvm but so few nodes 'set node' is probably faster
18:24 T4im was asking because of https://github.com/minetest/minetest_​game/pull/1190#issuecomment-231821022
18:24 hmmmm indeed, implementing nyancat generation in lua using set_node is the optimal solution here.
18:25 hmmmm your only real option is lsystem, but that doesn't exist as a decoration yet
18:25 hmmmm implementing it as a schematic would simply be ... too complicated for little gain
18:26 T4im deco code can just place single nodes?
18:27 T4im expansion on_construct?
18:27 paramat the schematic per-node randomness can't vary tail length anyway
18:29 hmmmm the way to do what you're looking for would be to register a simple decoration that places unforcibly places a single node of air (or ignore, i think you can also use here??) and then receive notifications for that decoration using generate notifier
18:29 hmmmm register_gen_notify() i think it is
18:29 paramat +1 for game1189 i might merge as trivial since it's tested and simple
18:29 hmmmm but i mean what's the point
18:30 hmmmm at that point the only reason you'd be using decorations is for the engine to do the perlin noise, biome filtering, and vector randomization for you
18:30 hmmmm well i guess that does have a bit of value
18:30 paramat it's for easier clearing of that decoration when a mod changes mapgen
18:31 hmmmm game#1189
18:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1189 -- Doors: Fix missing node parameter passing. by t4im
18:31 paramat https://github.com/minetest/minetest_​game/pull/1190#issuecomment-231817669
18:31 hmmmm aahhh
18:32 hmmmm yeah, i agree with separating nyancat into its own mod
18:33 hmmmm now just some code review...
18:35 paramat so i'm closing #4164 since we decided mods will clear and re-register stuff when changing mapgen
18:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4164 -- Setting mapgen in a mod can result in incorrect ore/biome/decoration/nyancat registrations
18:51 hmmmm well, an action that can be taken for that issue is to clarify documentation that the onus is on the mods changing the mapgen to clear out any decorations others might have added, or possibly add and document a wrapper to changing the mapgen to builtin
18:54 paramat hm yeah
18:55 paramat github's font seems to have changed
18:56 hmmmm yeah it did
18:56 hmmmm it's wider.
18:56 hmmmm Cantarell Regular
19:08 rubenwardy celeron55, https://github.com/minetest/min​etest/pull/4297/files#r70316104
19:10 celeron55 huh, what a well commented and documented piece of code we have here
19:10 rubenwardy Lol
19:10 rubenwardy I saw that code, and thought "that's c55's work from the early days"
19:10 rubenwardy :D
19:12 rubenwardy Well, it wasn't bad enough to be sapier's
19:12 celeron55 i guess it's the code that makes the tool raise up at a speed that visualizes the punch interval
19:13 celeron55 ...when being used as a weapon
19:13 hmmmm sorta reminds me of the shakespearian assert i just saw the other day in the codebase at my job
19:14 hmmmm DCHECK(loaded || !loaded);
19:14 hmmmm to be or not to be... that is the question
19:14 celeron55 it's an assert that clearly states that anything goes
19:14 celeron55 otherwise you might not know that it is the case
19:15 rubenwardy the wield item goes in a circle - lower on the way back - is that what the reload animation is?
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19:19 celeron55 possibly
19:19 Krock lol, that's a very good check, hmmmm :)
19:19 rubenwardy light bulb: let's disable that code and see what happens
19:20 rubenwardy and by us, I mean me
19:25 hmmmm i don't think sapier is bad at coding per se
19:25 hmmmm it's just that he goes so fast
19:26 rubenwardy He's good at coding, it's just his code style
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19:27 hmmmm i've noticed that the 'code ninjas' who seem to crank out enormous amounts of code really fast make the majority of these boneheaded mistakes
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20:17 Fixer for 99% of people minetest_game = minetest, right now it is sandbox without ambience, survival, mobs, CARTS, whatever...
20:24 Fixer !tell paramat "i agree it would be good to have a second more complete game" ----- rename minetest_game to "minimal dev test", merge all really good stuff (best mods) in minetest_game, ???, maintain!
20:24 ShadowBot Fixer: O.K.
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20:27 Fixer why on Earth isolate new subgame from mods, if you can make minetest great again with minetest_game + best suitable mods, fast and mostly easy (no need to develop from start)
20:30 T4im _game forces certain decisions on you, that might not be applicable for every subgame/game concept
20:30 Fixer right now mtg has no goals, just stupid sandbox :(
20:30 Fixer T4im: and it is moddable
20:31 paramat the base game is not a minimal dev test, and we already have that. perhaps 'minetest_base' or something. if a player doesn't understand the modular form that's their problem, most do and most use mods
20:31 Fixer T4im: it can be made like: fork the game, remove not needed parts, add new parts whatever, modularity
20:32 T4im yes, that's one way to make a subgame, but that automatically makes you incomptible with other mods, not modularity
20:32 paramat 'make minetest great again!' 'build a wall at world edge!'
20:32 Fixer "so perhaps a more complete 'game' could be made more official and closer to a core-dev thing, instead of waiting for modders to do it"
20:32 Fixer i agree with this
20:33 Fixer if you are going to wait for modders to make great subgame, it can happen, but not people will live long enough to see it included
20:33 T4im noone up there talked about an either-or, so far I now
20:33 T4im the idea was to split it up, into a modular base and a game-play oriented game
20:34 paramat 'and make mojang pay for it!'
20:34 T4im heh
20:34 Fixer so 3 games? minimal, base (for modders), game (base + best mods)
20:34 T4im minimal is not a game
20:34 Fixer not a game ofc
20:34 Fixer 3 modes of operation*
20:35 T4im you don't need to be concerned about minimal, that seems mostly an engine playground for core devs
20:35 paramat mtg has a goal of being a base for modding, it's inevitably unexciting
20:35 T4im ^^ and by splitting up the base for modding with the game you can go crazy with the game and modular with the base, it's a win-win
20:35 celeron55 when and by who was that goal set, by the way?
20:36 T4im it wasn't set, just proposed
20:36 celeron55 paramat just said so
20:36 paramat erm
20:37 T4im ah, that, well, the entirety of the minetest community by depending on it?
20:37 T4im :D
20:37 Fixer you can put a vote on forums
20:37 paramat mtg devs sort of decided on that goal a year or two ago
20:38 paramat but we have been adding lots of new stuff recently
20:38 paramat thanks to sofar etc
20:38 paramat it seems we're making some effort to make mtg a little more rich in features
20:39 paramat because other subgames haven't appeared
20:39 Fixer there some subgames, but nobody include them for some reason
20:39 celeron55 i'm asking just to make sure you actually have a grounded plan and don't just repeat some phrases out of nowhere 8)
20:39 Fixer thats why I said do not wait for it
20:40 paramat heh
20:40 paramat the goal is rather vague
20:41 paramat anyway sofar has lots of ideas so perhaps can manage a new subgame
20:41 rubenwardy Afaik, it all started in the dark ages of ever long feature locked MTG
20:42 celeron55 this is a bit of a mess in my opinion
20:43 rubenwardy I'm willing to help develop MTG and MTBase, as I have more time now (being summer and no uni)
20:43 rubenwardy but meh
20:43 celeron55 at this point we more like need less subgames, not more
20:43 nrzkt celeron55, agree
20:44 paramat anyway, we need a basic game as a core for modding, and for low power devices, so mtg has this purpose
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20:44 rubenwardy although Voxel Legends / rpgtest is taking up much of my time
20:45 rubenwardy and Game of Thrones
20:46 celeron55 if i wasn't lazy as fuck, i might just dictate a "minetest: full edition" or something with the sole goal of just integrating as much stuff as possible in a subgame plus a few other subgames as-is
20:46 celeron55 but i am, so i am not doing that
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20:46 sofar lol
20:46 celeron55 so, good luck, lol
20:46 rubenwardy more stuff doesn't mean better gameplay :P
20:47 celeron55 for some people it does
20:47 KaadmY eg. dreambuilder
20:47 celeron55 but i specifically chose the word "integrating"
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20:47 celeron55 not "piling up"
20:49 paramat we can have a 2nd subgame, we waiting for those who want to work on it
20:49 paramat (we're)
20:49 paramat i would of course be interested in the mapgen side, but am not interested in directing or managing
20:51 celeron55 i could direct it, as long as people somehow magically manage themselves and do all the work
20:51 celeron55 but in my opinion that would be kind of ridiculous
20:52 celeron55 i mean, i would *certainly*
20:52 celeron55 but it involves stuff like me just saying "make carts that actually work well"
20:52 celeron55 not going to happen, so who cares
20:52 paramat sofar you seem to want to get a new subgame going?
20:53 paramat btw we're planning on adding carts to mtg
20:53 celeron55 in my opinion the engine isn't ready for those
20:54 paramat indeed
20:54 sofar I'm not so sure I really need or want a subgame, but it will certainly help to get some items done that are in my list of things that it needs to do
20:54 paramat but if they're no worse than boats we're thinking of adding carts anyway
20:55 paramat and krock has been perfecting his carts mod for years
20:55 sofar I'd consider carts for riding if we add them to the player model
20:55 sofar that's the only way I can see it work well
20:55 paramat ahh
20:56 sofar it'll still lag in corners, but at least straight travel should be better
20:58 T4im add the notion of paths to the game? like nodemetadata that the client can use to predict movement, even if not straight?
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21:02 Fixer made a simple vote on forum, good enough? https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=3&amp;t=15128
21:09 rubenwardy I find that boost_carts works rather well in singleplayer and on my 1-3 player MT server in a different country
21:10 Fixer rubenwardy: try new update of it, i think it fixed reversing direction problem after all
21:11 Fixer rubenwardy: it is very usable right now, I play it on server in USA, i live in Europe, PilzMans original carts were jiggling as hell even on a fast server close to me :/
21:12 Fixer some Krock's optimisations helped it seems
21:12 Fixer i did a lot of railcarting with it and i was pleased
21:13 paramat correction: we do have a grounded plan, it's not vague, mtg is going well
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21:18 Krock Fixer, the case is clear. 100% want option 2
21:18 * Krock hides
21:20 Fixer as usual 7.5 forum users will vote within first year
21:20 KaadmY <Krock> Fixer, the case is clear. 100% want option 2
21:20 KaadmY nah, 67% now
21:21 KaadmY i voted for option #4 >:}
21:21 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4 -- cppcheck warnings
21:26 Fixer good news everyone!11
21:26 Fixer https://github.com/xeranas/weather_p​ack/issues/6#issuecomment-231557553 this may help reproduce some updatelight issues
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22:22 est31 being late to the discussion, I still want to express my support for rubenwardy's idea of splitting up mtgame into a base for modders and a full complete game
22:22 est31 of course quality is important
22:23 est31 but as long as that is provided, i think its good if there is a more extended version of mtgame around
22:23 est31 it requires more attention thats true, but lacking completeness is one of the main critique points by people judging minetest
22:24 est31 if we want to become better in their eyes, we need to add more stuff to a default game
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22:31 T4im well spoken
22:32 est31 <celeron55> when and by who was that goal set, by the way?
22:32 est31 idk, by you?
22:32 est31 http://www.voxelands.com/about.html
22:32 est31 http://irc.minetest.ru/minet​est-dev/2014-01-06#i_3536010
22:33 STHGOM joined #minetest-dev
22:33 est31 (maybe you think different now)
22:53 est31 joined #minetest-dev
22:54 est31 btw celeron55 do you know whether there is still a weblate hook on github?
22:54 est31 if no, I'll tell nijel and ask him what then the cause for the still happening attempts for the merges are
22:55 est31 because he said the cause for the updates is the hook
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