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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-06-14

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Time Nick Message
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01:13 paramat "move the mapgen specific params to mapgen.h anyway, and declare them directly in the mapgenparams" no thanks, so i agree with you
01:16 paramat hmmmm see https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/4216#issuecomment-225747280 and following comment, PR seems ready now
01:28 hmmmm yeah but I mean vs. the old algorithm
01:30 hmmmm also just a tip, if you want more detail with a greater spread value, you can increase the lacunarity
01:30 paramat i've recreated the old behaviour through choice of noise parameters
01:31 hmmmm yeah but i want to actually see a comparison if that's okay
01:31 paramat ok
01:34 paramat i trust the params more than judging it visually, but okay
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01:45 paramat eh ok so it was worth checking after all, need to tune the offset
01:46 paramat not enough moss
01:48 paramat ah that
01:49 paramat what is a good value for content to indicate 'nil' or 'null'?
01:49 paramat here i used '0' for when no alt_wall is wanted
01:50 paramat 'NULL' didn't work because content is an unsigned integer
01:56 paramat replied in the thread
02:05 paramat afk for food
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03:06 hmmmm yeah paramat whenever you make an adjustment to noise params like that you need to actually see the difference you're making
03:07 hmmmm you can use CONTENT_IGNORE for "no content"
03:07 hmmmm of course content_t is not a pointer
03:08 paramat yeah i'll use content_ignore
03:08 hmmmm i wanna change all that stuff soon anyway
03:08 hmmmm cause look
03:09 hmmmm caves are very similar to dungeons and yet their interface isn't consistent at all
03:09 hmmmm with your PR you're now making multiple dungeons inside of DungeonGen::generate() instead of inside the mapgen
03:10 hmmmm whereas if you consider caves, makeCaves only generates one set of tunnels, and to make multiple cave systems in the chunk, the mapgen is the one responsible for doing it more than once
03:11 paramat makes sense
03:11 hmmmm i'm not telling you to go change it, i'm saying consider this
03:11 hmmmm i'm aiming to separate the concerns as best as possible and right now it's not exactly a mess but it could be better
03:11 paramat ok
03:12 hmmmm like for example caves and dungeons shouldn't have logic that determines their frequency or whether they occur above water_level or similar
03:12 hmmmm those are things that mapgens, the objects that actually use cavegens and dungeongens, worry about
03:12 hmmmm all a cavegen should worry about is making a cave at point XYZ
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03:46 paramat hmmmm, PR updated
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04:55 hmmmm btw paramat, https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit​/dacbc47994723a4615ba7060749997c451f0f352
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08:54 NeueMann When following these instructions: http://dev.minetest.net/Compiling_M​inetest#Building_without_Irrlicht_.2F_X_dependency what should one set for cmake?
08:57 Calinou NeueMann: -DBUILD_CLIENT=0 should be enough
08:57 Calinou you can install Irrlicht packages anyway, without requiring a desktop environment
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09:54 NeueMann I'm having trouble when using biome_lib: http://pastebin.com/GNBXp43k
09:54 NeueMann This comes up when I try to join the game.
09:55 NeueMann I also get this when starting up: WARNING[Main]: system-wide share not found at "/usr/local/share/minetest"
09:57 asl97 NeueMann: did you make install it?
09:58 asl97 it seem like you might have build a system-wide built instead of a run_in_place
09:58 NeueMann No. I'm running from the folder. Do I need to?
10:01 * Fritigern uses this script and never has trouble... http://pastebin.com/D0d6hJU2
10:03 Fritigern Oh, you want to build without irrlicht? Never done that.  Perhaps you can use the script as the basis for your own build
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11:05 Calinou asl97: NeueMann: you can ignore that warning
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16:40 paramat game#1137 boats were broken by an innocent looking commit, will fix today
16:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1137 -- Boats sink if they get under water. But they sink through stone too.
16:42 paramat nore i think game#1135 can be closed, any comments?
16:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1135 -- buckets won't run out of water/lava in creative mode by cdqwertz
16:43 paramat nice, no more mapgenfactory
16:43 hmmmm unfortunately it's only a 4 line reduction
16:44 asl97 #4091 is a small fix,  hopefully it didn't gotten forgotten
16:44 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4091 -- mesh tiling bug and possible fix
16:44 hmmmm i never even knew about it
16:45 hmmmm huh i thought grouping up to 2 nodes only was the expected behavior
16:46 asl97 wat... why would that be the expected behavior?
16:49 hmmmm i approve of the change though
16:50 hmmmm paramat:  http://i.imgur.com/NtHJVtc.jpg  this is how big a river valley actually is lol
16:50 paramat nice
16:51 paramat i'm not keen on mgvalleys, lumpy and too small-scale
16:51 hmmmm mgvalleys is like a bunch of creeks
16:51 paramat but it's very popular
16:52 hmmmm well, at least it's adjustable
16:52 hmmmm i wish you could modify the river depth too
16:52 hmmmm noise based rivers kinda suck though
16:53 hmmmm i think millersman has the right idea; global map generation should be the way forward and there's really no way to do this without persistence
16:53 hmmmm i was going to do a similar thing except with a low-res bitmap image stored in the map directory, not a database
16:56 hmmmm in any case, if you want noise-based rivers similar to valleys except without all the extra math, log(x^2) seems to work well
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17:18 diemartin celeron55, ShadowNinja, anyone else with permissions, would it be possible to add a mobile-friendly theme to the forums?
17:18 diemartin excuse the offtopic
17:18 Krock is it really the theme or would it need a forum software upate too?
17:19 celeron55 do you have a theme suggestion or what action do you think needs to be taken?
17:21 celeron55 i can add a secondary non-default theme if someone knows a good one; it would be nice if it would be customized a bit first though; generic themes give a cheap feel
17:22 diemartin I'm not entirely sure on what needs to be done, but there's this: https://www.phpbb.com/community/vi​ewtopic.php?f=73&t=2138277
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17:23 diemartin I don't really care about the colors but looking at the forums on mobile is a pain
17:24 paramat confirmed the fix for game#1136 will fix today
17:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1136 -- Searching blocks/items glitch, in new creative interface. In version 0.4.14
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17:27 paramat not really a theme then, more an alternative simplified layout
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19:00 hmmmm you know what
19:00 hmmmm i think i wanna get rid of the flags
19:00 hmmmm flags are an implementation detail of an array of booleans, and users shouldn't be directly exposed to that
19:00 hmmmm does anybody agree?
19:02 celeron55 of course they are
19:03 hmmmm i mean agree to get rid of them in favor of a bunch of booleans
19:03 celeron55 however, it doesn't directly imply flags should never be used in an interface
19:03 celeron55 but it could
19:03 celeron55 you might have noticed that in no part of the Lua API that i designed there are any C-style flag fields
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19:05 celeron55 (altough... there might be none in the implementations either)
19:05 celeron55 s/either/also/ (how does this even work)
19:05 DI3HARD139 Question. How do I change the release setting to debug when compiling from github?
19:06 celeron55 you pass -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Debug to cmake
19:06 celeron55 (it's a standard cmake thing)
19:07 DI3HARD139 So just add it to the end of  cmake . -DRUN_IN_PLACE=1 -DENABLE_GETTEXT=1 -DENABLE_FREETYPE=1 -DENABLE_LEVELDB=1;?
19:07 celeron55 assuming of course that you are not using visual studio, which cmake handles specially
19:07 celeron55 yes
19:08 DI3HARD139 I'm compiling using the 1-line script from Calinou
19:11 DI3HARD139 ty. I just reimaged my server using the base build of ubuntu-server and added the xfce
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19:25 Hijiri If I set the metatable of a LuaEntitySAO, will it have the same metatable when the object is fetched again e.g. from a punch callback?
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19:47 paramat hmmmm, about flags: the 'trees' and 'flat' flags were moved from mg_flags to mgv6_spflags, but to maintain backwards compatibility i had to leave them duplicated in mg_flags, just not documented. this can be confusing because they still show up in map_meta.txt in mg_flags. so it might be good to sort this mess out by breaking compatibility flagswise
19:48 paramat obviously we need to support old mgv6 flat worlds, but the mgv6 'trees' flag could be replaced by the new global 'decorations' flag
19:50 paramat as for flags vs bools i have no opinion so far
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19:53 paramat personally i would rather users are forced to change a flag or two than continue with this flag mess i created
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19:56 Ambistic I'd like to help translate the wiki to french, is there a core dev that may help me ?
19:56 paramat since you're making big changes to mapgen this would be a good time to do it and break flags compat at 0.4.15
20:03 hmmmm celeron55:  i wish you would've stopped me when i tried to add the first flags field
20:03 hmmmm the way i envisioned it, it was like the flags on a command line
20:03 hmmmm --fno-foobar --something-else --etc
20:04 hmmmm but that's not very intuitive i guess
20:04 celeron55 well, you can always add a compatibility converter from flags to something that will be used for the foreseeable future
20:04 hmmmm paramat:  i am not implying anything about what you did, just a question about design in general
20:05 hmmmm yeah in fact I had an idea for making a SettingsMigrator class
20:05 Ambistic I'd like to help translate the wiki to french, is there a core dev that may help me ?
20:05 hmmmm you hard code a list of old names, a list of new names, then when Settings loads a config file, it does the conversion silently
20:05 hmmmm and then it removes any instances of the old names on save
20:06 hmmmm Ambistic:  either nrzkt or Calinou could probably help here
20:08 paramat also we have mg_flags = dungeons in defaultsettings.cpp for some complex compat reason
20:08 hmmmm ANYWAY THE POINT IS we can easily do settings name and type changes in a reverse-compatible manner and I can't figure out any reason why we shouldn't
20:09 paramat if you set mg_flags = nocaves for a world that will bizarrely disable dungeons
20:09 paramat you have to end up doing mg_flags = nocaves, dungeons
20:09 hmmmm yeah that's an unintended consequence
20:09 hmmmm this is pretty messy.
20:10 hmmmm but that's not what i'm talking about
20:10 hmmmm i'm just talking about the whole concept of exposing flags to the end user
20:10 hmmmm it's actually not that great of an idea
20:10 hmmmm it should be an internal thing only
20:10 hmmmm what do you think, do you like flags?
20:22 paramat i don't mind them, they have been a little confusing, maybe docs are unclear
20:23 paramat i might prefer a set of seperate bools, having the one string of many flags is perhaps not ideal
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20:24 paramat a bool is clearer than using a 'no' prefix
20:27 paramat ok so i'll put it this way, i think the system could be better and clearer
20:30 paramat but more important to me is to, at least, sort out the 'trees' and 'flat' mess
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20:40 sapier hello
20:42 Fixer hi sapier
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20:43 est31 hello sapier
20:43 est31 how are you doing
20:43 est31 long time no see
20:44 sapier true I've been extremely busy in my paid work ;-/ ... well not much better now but I'm gonna try to answer questions ... maybe I remember whats required to know
20:53 nore hi sapier :)
20:54 paramat our android dev! we have been looking for a new one
20:55 hmmmm i'm of the opinion that we should pluck android support for mt if we don't have any android developers
20:55 hmmmm it's in a very sorry state right now and shows no signs of getting fixed
20:56 paramat i've suggested that too. android seems to cause lots of grief
20:56 est31 hmmmm, cant that be said for whole minetest
20:56 Fixer hmmmm: critical bugs? it kinda works at least
20:57 sapier guess it did never evolve beyond the state I left it?
20:57 est31 not much
20:57 est31 almost not at all
20:57 est31 kept on life support basically
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20:57 est31 I've done some fixes to the build system
20:57 est31 and monte has done some smaller improvements
20:57 est31 thats it
20:57 sapier sad ... I was hoping this would turn into some sort of self running thing after the initial work is done
20:59 paramat we're really understaffed recently
20:59 est31 We are better staffed than irrlicht
21:00 est31 basically one person project atm
21:00 est31 with second person sending patches now and then
21:00 paramat nore sfan5 i'll merge this later, trivial fixes for 2 bugs game#1139
21:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1139 -- Fix boat falling through world and grey screen in creative search by paramat
21:01 sapier one person at irrlicht? ... explains why it's android support is that buggy
21:01 est31 at least right now.
21:03 sapier I'd like to say I'm gonna have a look at it but I'm quite sure I'm not gonna have enough spare time till september to do any really productive work
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21:13 hmmmm yeah like sapier said it "works" but it's not "evolving
21:13 hmmmm it barely works
21:13 hmmmm let's face it, people who develop for mobile platforms are usually have a profit motive
21:13 hmmmm they are not interested in developing open source
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21:14 sapier1 sad to admit it but you could be right hmmmm
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21:15 est31 hmmmm, agreed, for >= 95% this is the primary and only motive
21:15 est31 monetisation
21:15 est31 but still there is the 5%, maybe less
21:15 hmmmm fwiw you can make a shitton of money on mobile
21:15 hmmmm ads are like 0.003 cents per view or whatever
21:15 hmmmm but you scale that by millions and it's still a lot
21:15 est31 there are many many open source apps
21:16 Fixer adaway installed :}
21:16 sapier1 well if nothing changed our main issue is we don't have anyone really capable of designing a really good mobile ui
21:16 hmmmm that one guy who ripped minetest and changed some default settings and w/e made like $100k off of it
21:16 hmmmm lol :(
21:16 est31 hmmmm, https://f-droid.org/
21:16 Fixer hmmmm: no way, proof?
21:17 hmmmm i don't have any proof but after looking at the math i actually do believe it's possible
21:17 Fixer people play with ads? mazohists
21:17 est31 Fixer, indeed they do
21:17 est31 many players join servers
21:17 est31 and say
21:17 hmmmm most people are normies and they think ads are just part of life
21:17 est31 "your game is shit, it is full of ads"
21:17 Fixer ads should die
21:17 hmmmm ad injection
21:18 est31 they think the game is called "mine builder" or something
21:18 hmmmm because we use udp for file transfer we're vulnerable to get MITMed
21:18 hmmmm I bet the next step in advertisement evolution is to silently replace the regular textures with advertisement images when it passes through their router
21:18 hmmmm rofl
21:18 est31 lol
21:19 est31 wait for google fiber to start with it
21:19 est31 free internet, but your minetest blocks will have ads on them
21:19 Fixer i don't mind, people want join isis or watch ads? fuck em, thats their choice
21:19 est31 nodes*
21:20 Fixer i will not go like Stallman trying to stop people eat shit %)
21:20 est31 its their choice to join isis and its the choice of the usa to send drones to kill them
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21:21 hmmmm ISIS recruitment mod
21:21 Fixer i wonder are there any ISIS ads?
21:21 est31 lol
21:21 sofar there's a solution to all this
21:21 sofar just block forks from connecting to servers
21:21 hmmmm play as a jihadi militant and slaughter as many innocent villagers (mobs) in a randomly procedurally-generated sand village
21:22 hmmmm ace of spades meets terrorism
21:22 est31 sofar, thats the totally wrong approach
21:22 sapier1 @zeno thanks for pushing https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/7ea4a03c835d68a6fb58aa55aa6a6315ec80b79f I don't know why I missed to push this obvious error fix to minetest myself
21:22 sofar est31: sure, it's not a nice approach :)
21:22 est31 sofar, the problem is equivalent to "prevent people from saving the online video to their disk"
21:22 est31 requires DRM essentially
21:23 sofar if we want to "protect" the minetest community (and game), we should consider all methods available seriously
21:23 hmmmm sorta reminds me of warcraft 3
21:23 est31 another good way would be to go GPL
21:23 sapier1 come one wc3 is way to new ... :-)
21:24 sapier1 wc1 rocks
21:24 hmmmm the client will refuse to connect to a server if the signature doens't match the IP address padded with a bunch of NULs
21:24 est31 and create a special licensing organisation or something
21:24 est31 which gives play store exceptions to selected forks
21:24 sofar or trademark enforcement....
21:24 Fixer sapier1: i'm not totally sure, but i've noticed smth interesting on mt with this patch (can't say before patch), from time to time (rarely) received packets go in big spikes of 50-100-200-400
21:24 Fixer sapier1: at least on Extreme Survival Minetest server
21:24 Fixer not sure if mod problem or patch problem or fubar in general
21:25 sapier1 fixer could you try to find out if this is a counting issue? e.g. maybe droped packets are counted as "received"
21:25 nrzkt i agree with sofar
21:26 est31 nothing against registering a minetest trademark
21:26 Fixer sapier1: not a dev, but i think i didn't noticed much dropped packets on f5 graph
21:26 est31 but what would it help against an app that calls itself "mine builder pocket edition"?
21:26 Fixer sapier1: occasionally there are 1 or 2 dropped packets
21:26 est31 and is essentially re-branded minetest
21:26 sapier1 maybe the ones dropped due to client timeout are counted as received
21:27 Fixer sapier1: maybe i need to observe this more, people often go in and out
21:27 est31 but shrug, I think re-branded versions of minetest aren't something really bad
21:28 est31 minetest is open source this is what happens
21:28 est31 and it brings in new users
21:28 est31 there were many players who started with one of these adware infested apps
21:28 est31 and then switched to the official app
21:28 est31 or got minetest for the desktop
21:29 sapier1 fixer at least by looking at the code I see no reason how this patch could cause it ... but that doesn't rule out it somehow triggers another flaw in code which was hidden
21:29 Fixer est31: maybe servers should say that "If you see ads on your game, you are scummed, download official client"
21:30 est31 sapier1, you know why the client first sends a packet with two 0 bytes?
21:30 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/bl​ob/423d8c1b0d3841f6ce9756ab0d6b2e10408f​c89b/src/network/connection.cpp#L1742
21:31 est31 I've wondered about it when I did https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/423d8c1b0d3841f6ce9756ab0d6b2e10408fc89b
21:31 est31 not really important, if you dont know its no problem
21:31 sapier1 that code was modified past my changes but if I remember correct this is regular join
21:32 sapier1 client doesn't know it's own peer_id by that time so there's not much it can tell to server
21:32 est31 thats not the part I am wondering about
21:33 est31 i mean the client sends its peer id in order to speed up packet routing
21:33 est31 on the server side
21:33 est31 thats the only reason, otherwise one could just use the ip address and port
21:33 sapier1 sorry I don't really know the new style login mechanism, the old style one was suboptimal
21:34 est31 its before any login
21:34 est31 btw, I implemented the new style login mechanism, so I know it well
21:34 est31 if you have any questions, ask
21:34 est31 :)
21:34 sapier1 there hasn't been information about ip adress and port in original networking code
21:35 est31 it may have been added later on
21:35 sapier1 maybe it's just "legacy"
21:35 est31 as a security fix
21:35 est31 sapier1, because if there is no ip address based check, a malicious client can fake the peer id e.g. of an admin
21:35 est31 and fake a chat command packet with /grant <playername> all
21:36 sapier1 most likely I completely rewrote that low level code but as my goal was to write a compatible solution till a decision is made for a better one I couldn't fix all issues
21:36 est31 sapier1, nobody is blaming you.
21:37 Fixer sapier1: hmm, joined server, for 2 minutes observed it, no people left in this period, i've observed rare 150 packets spikes
21:37 sapier1 est31 wouldn't bother anyway it's more then a year old, I've learned quite a lot since then ;-)
21:37 Fixer what are those <invalid UTF-8 string> guys?
21:37 sapier1 fixer did anyone connect?
21:38 Fixer sapier1: yes
21:38 Fixer sapier1: randomly, no correlation for me
21:38 sapier1 spikes in sending or receiving?
21:38 est31 Fixer, they have a different charset than the server
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21:38 Fixer sapier1: received
21:38 est31 Fixer, and they send special chars
21:38 est31 Fixer, the server converts it to utf-8, and then back
21:38 Fixer est31: ah
21:38 sapier1 that's really strange
21:39 est31 but if the charset doesnt match it will make the utf-8 string broken
21:39 sapier1 fixer maybe it's a reliable packet beeing lost
21:39 est31 wchar is platform dependent
21:39 sapier1 e.g. one packet is lost but following packets are received
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21:40 sapier1 once the lost packet is retransmitted all follow up packets can be processed immediatly
21:40 Fixer sapier1: it is just i never noticed this before patch, maybe it was, but I have not noticed :(
21:41 sapier1 if this explanation is true it should've happened before too
21:42 sapier1 if you find a way to reproduce that error in an environment where you can do packet capturing that'd help
21:42 sapier1 but you can't do packet capturing on a production server
21:43 paramat hmmmm #4216 is updated
21:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4216 -- Dungeons: Generalise. Add new parameters by paramat
21:43 sapier1 sorry have to get some sleep now, hope to see you soon
21:43 Fixer sapier1: you want server side? doubt it, while he hosts it on his PC, he is not completely crazy to debug it
21:44 sapier1 yes a server side dump could help, but of course not if there's any real user data in it
21:44 sapier1 minetest port only of course
21:44 sapier1 another option would be a description how to reproduce the issue
21:45 sapier1 sorry have to go now good luck
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21:47 Fixer i really miss that celeron server days
21:47 Fixer with actual dev in game
21:47 Fixer and his c55.me server
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22:22 paramat merging game#1139
22:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1139 -- Fix boat falling through world and grey screen in creative search by paramat
22:23 paramat and game#1120 , almost forgot
22:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1120 -- Mossy cobble slab and stairs. by sofar
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22:36 paramat merged
22:38 Glorfindel I noticed that in #minetest lol
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23:54 Fixer Glorfindel: thats expected, no worry

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