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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-06-03

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Time Nick Message
00:01 Fixer related to https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3577
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06:46 paramat please can anyone review #4163 ? hmmmm Zeno` ?
06:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4163 -- Sky: Darker, bluer sky and improved horizon haze at night by paramat
06:46 hmmmm paramat, that PR is all about personal taste
06:56 paramat aesthetic decisions still need to be made, so opinions are welcome
06:57 hmmmm i don't really have an opinion
06:57 paramat ok no problem
07:02 Zeno` paramat: https://www.flickr.com/phot​os/australimage/5469880177/
07:03 Zeno` that's the colour of the milky way
07:03 Zeno` (on a moonless night)
07:03 paramat lovely
07:03 Zeno` Almost froze getting that photo :(
07:04 hmmmm you took that pic?
07:04 Zeno` yeah
07:04 hmmmm sweet
07:04 paramat nice
07:04 hmmmm why'd you put it on flicker though
07:04 Zeno` :)
07:04 hmmmm it does that goofy thing with the image so that you can't save it
07:04 hmmmm and it makes me have to view source and track down the actual image url
07:04 Zeno` gcflora is me. At the time I did a photo a day for 1 year and flickr was convenient
07:05 Zeno` at that time direct links to flickr worked fine (it was before they "improved" it)
07:05 paramat i'm actually half ozzy, although i live in the UK
07:05 hmmmm http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/52​95/5469880177_211740f02d_b.jpg
07:06 Zeno` those pools of water in the foreground were frozen the morning after I took the photo
07:06 hmmmm paramat:  ozzy ozborne?
07:06 paramat lol yes
07:07 paramat english parents, so dual national
07:07 hmmmm garbage collecting flora
07:09 hmmmm sweet
07:10 hmmmm zeno you went on a trip to africa?
07:10 Zeno` no
07:10 Zeno` papua new guinea you're probably looking at
07:10 hmmmm ahh
07:10 hmmmm cause i was gonna say, a friend of mine lived in ghana for a year
07:10 hmmmm it's... quite an experience
07:10 Zeno` yeah I'd love to go there
07:11 Zeno` gc is for Gold Coast btw hhehe
07:11 hmmmm ahh
07:11 hmmmm whenever I see GC i automatically think of garbage collection
07:11 Zeno` hehe, well I do that as well
07:11 hmmmm probably thanks to lua_gc
07:15 Zeno` most likely :P
07:18 paramat Zeno` https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/issues/2685#issuecomment-223508189
07:19 Zeno` paramat, but you can't use the index to do anything can you?
07:19 paramat ?
07:19 Zeno` I mean... what can you do with the invalid index?
07:20 paramat if it's within lvm array size it's just a weird location within the lvm
07:21 paramat if it's outside array size i guess MT throws an error?
07:21 Zeno` yeah
07:21 Zeno` e.g. make up and index... let's say -13013010 and try it
07:21 Zeno` ok not that small
07:21 Zeno` -1300
07:21 Zeno` maybe -13000 ... I dunno something reasonable heh
07:21 paramat will do
07:21 hmmmm that issue is dumb
07:22 hmmmm the person who created it did not bother to do any debugging whatsoever and jump to the conclusion that it must be the fault of the API
07:22 hmmmm LVM is safe... there is no out-of-bounds memory access happening
07:23 paramat good
07:23 Zeno` my point is basically that the lua mod should be making sure it's not sending silly values to s32 index(s16 x, s16 y, s16 z) const in the first place
07:23 paramat that bug happened to me a few times
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07:23 Zeno` just as they should not make up their own indexes like -1300 and expect it to work
07:23 hmmmm i'm pretty sure there's a contains() for the lua implementation of VoxelArea
07:24 hmmmm there's really no excuse
07:24 Zeno` there is, and also all the functions that actually modify something do do bounds checking
07:25 paramat it would be odd though to write a mod and include a check for out of bounds, might as well write the mod properly instead
07:25 Zeno` well, that's up to the mod :)
07:26 Zeno` if someone wants to write a crappy mod that does unnecessary checks I guess that's up to them haha
07:26 paramat logical conclusion: add error checks for absolutely everything in a mod
07:26 paramat so, i feel i was right to close it
07:27 hmmmm hmmm
07:27 hmmmm does the bulk set operations of LVM iterate through each table value, or does it specifically check for index 0 and so on
07:28 hmmmm the latter
07:28 hmmmm yeah, sorry bug reporter guy, LVM looks solid
07:31 nore my opinion on this is that the VoxelArea *shouldn't* do any checks
07:31 nore this was precisely done to get the maximum speed in mapgens
07:31 paramat exactly
07:31 nore and there is no security hole, so it is the modder's responsibility
07:32 nore however, if would be possible to add a setting to do checks, but with the setting enabled, it would be slower
07:32 nore (to help with mod debugging)
07:33 Zeno` the mod can check itself can't it?
07:33 Zeno` using contains() or whatever it's called
07:33 paramat not a setting, a seperate 'area:' method
07:33 Zeno` so if they want to debug then they can add debug code...
07:33 nore Zeno`: it can, the question is, do we want to add a global setting to help with mod debugging?
07:34 nore yeah, probably
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07:34 nore anyway, final two exams today, see you later!
07:35 paramat actually voxelarea already has 'contains()'
07:35 paramat will update issue
07:36 paramat duh if only i'd looked in the first place
07:37 paramat great last exam day!
07:38 Zeno` sapier's kludge for connection.cpp should probably be merge
07:38 Zeno` d
07:38 nrzkt Zeno`: agreed
07:38 nrzkt nore: gl&hf
07:39 nore Zeno`: agreed too
07:39 nore thanks paramat and nrzkt :)
07:41 Zeno` someone is having an examination?
07:41 Zeno` oh!
07:41 Zeno` gl nore
07:53 hmmmm dammit zeno
07:53 hmmmm you pushed the network patch without fixing the ->
08:00 Zeno` I like the quirky style
08:00 Zeno` lol
08:00 Zeno` the strange this is that the first time I looked at that code the -> was the first thing I noticed :/
08:01 Zeno` you can fix it when you rewrite connection.cpp I guess
08:02 hmmmm we keep saying that connection.cpp needs a rewrite but what actually needs the rewrite?
08:03 hmmmm i guess the basic design is okay
08:03 Zeno` writeU8(&(b[0])
08:03 hmmmm yeah
08:03 Zeno` it's probably worth doing just a style update for that file
08:04 hmmmm hmm
08:04 hmmmm no one particular thing is 'wrong', just the whole thing is wrong
08:04 Zeno` just to get it consistent at leaset and "out of the way"
08:04 hmmmm i'll keep the fundamental design of having a send thread and receive thread
08:04 hmmmm or should I get rid of the separate send/recv threads
08:06 Zeno` Peer* PeerHelper::operator->() const
08:06 Zeno` for some reason that scares me
08:06 hmmmm he tried to make his own smart pointer
08:06 hmmmm but yea
08:06 Zeno` hmm ok
08:07 hmmmm from what i've personally seen, whenever you decide that you need to use a shared pointer for some reason, your object ownership design is probably flawed or you're confused about lifetimes
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08:09 Zeno` probably
08:09 Zeno` and also overloading -> is just something I don't like lol
08:10 hmmmm i don't like overloading any operators except for stuff where it makes sense like vectors or matricies
08:11 Zeno` well yes, but in those cases the *use* of them is obvious even in the src code if you're not aware they're overloaded
08:11 hmmmm overloaded =s are all hidden minefields
08:12 hmmmm yet people keep adding them
08:12 paramat =s
08:12 hmmmm no, you're not making your interface more 'complete' by adding some operator overloading functions
08:12 hmmmm you're just making it more error-prone when somebody who didn't write it tries to use it
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14:11 Wuzzy Okay, people. I am seriously confused. What do you want when you ask for a “rebase” in a PR but there is only 1 commit?
14:13 kahrl Wuzzy: a rebase on top of master
14:13 Wuzzy ahhhhhhhhh
14:13 Wuzzy I see
14:13 Wuzzy I always thought you are just interested in having commits squashed
14:14 kahrl yeah, that's also sometimes part of what rebasing means
14:14 nrzkt Wuzzy, a commit should be rebased to be mergeable often
14:15 Wuzzy rebasing is kind of dangerous, i don't like to do it often. only when all things are settled
14:15 * kahrl agrees with that
14:16 kahrl I usually don't rebase when it's not clear yet that my PR is wanted
14:17 nrzkt Wuzzy, rebasing is not dangerous except if your PR is too huge
14:17 kahrl (I might rebase if the conflicts are trivially resolved, or if a rebased version is needed for the discussion)
14:19 Zeno` I'm not sure it's dangerous; resolving conflicts might be but that's gotta be done anyway
14:19 Wuzzy why are rebases a thing in minetest, actually? i never understood that
14:19 Wuzzy like, ALL prs must go through this,right?
14:19 kahrl not all
14:20 kahrl only those that conflict with something that happened in master
14:20 Zeno` Wuzzy, If there are no conflicts then it's not necessary
14:20 kahrl and in that case, you'd have to resolve those conflicts in any project
14:20 Wuzzy so basically you are asking the committer to resolve all conflicts on his own?
14:21 Wuzzy isnt that what merges are for...?
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14:21 Wuzzy or did i miss something
14:23 kahrl if a dev resolved the conflicts during merge, then there would be no way to review those final changes before it's too late
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14:25 Wuzzy ah, so thats the rationale
14:25 Wuzzy ok thanks
14:26 Zeno` If they're trivial to fix I will /sometimes/ rebase as I merge but...
14:26 Wuzzy hmmm wait. when you ask for rebase, do you actually ever mean to squash commits as well? or is that not what you want?
14:26 Zeno` no, rebasing and squash are two different things
14:27 Wuzzy fun thing is you can do both in git rebase ...
14:27 Zeno` you'd (well, I) would normally rebase before squashing
14:28 Zeno` yeah, but if there are lots of commits... I dunno. Often it takes a variety of ways/approaches and every situation is usually different
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16:20 paramat #4185
16:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4185 -- Biomes: Add biome-definable riverbed material by paramat
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17:26 hmmmm paramat, I would prefer that you don't get into the habit of adding new biome node types for specific scenarios
17:26 hmmmm this is precisely where i imagined the direction of things will go when you announced "river" water
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17:27 hmmmm what if a river is its own biome?
17:27 hmmmm then it wouldn't need any "special" node definitions at all
17:27 hmmmm the logic right now is looking like this:
17:28 hmmmm we define the abstract concept of biomes, where a biome has a specific amount of filler, a specific type of filler node, a type of rock, a type of liquid
17:28 hmmmm but now you are tacking on top of all this, "but what if there's the special case of a river inside of this biome!"
17:28 hmmmm a river is a non-abstract concept specific to some mapgens that could be defined as a biome to begin with
17:29 hmmmm "but now inside of this special case there's a special type of node!"
17:29 hmmmm big -1 from me.
17:29 hmmmm in fact i want to remove "river water" as well.
17:29 paramat yeah defining it as a biome is another way, but unsure that is better
17:29 est31 okay lets talk about #4173
17:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4173 -- Initial Gamepad support by est31
17:29 est31 what do you think?
17:29 hmmmm this is going way against the entire concept of user-definable biomes
17:30 est31 Zeno`, sofar ready for merge?
17:30 hmmmm this kind of logic is absolutely killing it
17:30 paramat nope
17:30 Zeno` est31, yes
17:30 paramat well, you mean if river was a biome then it's 'water' would be enough?
17:31 hmmmm exactly
17:31 Zeno` est31 it's a brand new feature... the sooner it's merged the better IMO
17:31 hmmmm and if river was a biome you wouldn't need to define its own "riverbed" node
17:31 hmmmm this is why i think it's silly
17:31 paramat ok worth considering
17:31 hmmmm you keep tacking on special cases on top
17:31 est31 Zeno`, great
17:31 est31 merging it then
17:31 Zeno` cool
17:35 paramat i'll think on it, but i feel it's quite possible my approach works better overall. river as biome may have it's own problems
17:36 paramat i've spent a lot longer on this biome system than anyone else and it seems quite possible i have chosen this direction for good reason
17:37 paramat but i want to consider the alternative too
17:37 hmmmm okay that's a great appeal to authority, but you didn't add any reasons
17:37 hmmmm the biome system as it exists right now is extremely static
17:37 paramat well it might be an intuitive thing, not easy to immediately verbalise right now
17:38 hmmmm i'm trying to fix this as we speak but you keep cementing in special cases that are hard to abstract away
17:38 paramat maybe you're abstracting too much?
17:39 hmmmm my goal is, by the end of the year, have a space mapgen
17:39 paramat =)
17:39 hmmmm not because i like space and i want to make a space world
17:40 est31 in the ideal case one would have voxel area objects for planets
17:40 hmmmm but because i think it represents a lofty goal and a huge departure from the standard minetest world types
17:40 est31 with custom gravity
17:40 paramat heh
17:40 hmmmm right
17:40 hmmmm and you can have "nebulas" as biomes
17:40 hmmmm with a different type of air
17:40 hmmmm (or really, water)
17:40 paramat c55 would approve of this
17:41 hmmmm this is what i want
17:41 hmmmm i don't want more of the same
17:41 paramat ok well i want to investigate the river as biome thing then, i hope to be convinced
17:42 hmmmm i can tell you're probably not going to give it a fair chance
17:42 paramat i will
17:42 hmmmm it takes more effort up front
17:42 paramat btw working on mapgen is lovely now since your changes
17:42 hmmmm god forbid you need to code new stuff instead of adding a new parameter to a Biome object :)
17:43 hmmmm freaking parameters/config/settings should not take up the majority of the code
17:43 hmmmm it's so mundane and trivial of a task - passing around data
17:43 hmmmm why are we spending so much time on this
17:44 paramat well i'm glad you're around and active now, it was scary without you, i became the mapgen authority (!)
17:44 hmmmm that's partly because i got bored with the mapgen
17:45 hmmmm i still haven't achieved what i set out to do but i don't want to be a one-trick pony at the same time
17:45 paramat i'll close that PR then
17:45 hmmmm you could keep it open for discussion
17:45 paramat ok
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17:58 hmmmm i think mapgens are too much like the rendering pipeline of the olde days
17:59 hmmmm you can have any color you want as long as it's black
17:59 hmmmm and then a lua on_generated callback is the equivalent to shaders, except it's not fast at all...
17:59 hmmmm heh
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18:04 * sofar peeks in
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18:24 hmmmm alright so while i was taking a shit i thought about the whole biome thing a bit more
18:25 hmmmm 1).  i've decided on how to implement the biome cache, i'm going to use 3d coordinates.  if a specific biome system happens to be 2d, they can still utilize the biomecache by passing one of the coordinates as a constant
18:26 hmmmm 2).  yes there will be 2d and 3d biomegens, what we currently have is like 2.5D (like overlapping sectors in the BUILD engine!)
18:26 hmmmm a pure 3d biome system will be necessary for a space biome
18:27 hmmmm 3).  we can't reasonably expect biomes and terrain to be divorced from each other because much of the time it's necessary for them to correlate.  minecraft solves this by generating biomes first, and then determining terrain shape from the biome
18:27 hmmmm since we don't have this luxury, instead what we can do is tell the biomegen about the terrain we created
18:28 hmmmm i had ideas about this in the past such as sending an edge detection map as the "terrain variance" to be a factor in determining biomes
18:28 hmmmm this can still be done in a separate biomegen
18:28 hmmmm but what i think would be the best solution is to have a mechanism where the mapgen (or really anything that uses a biomegen) can tell the biomegen that it wants certain nodes to be certain biomes
18:29 hmmmm so the mapgen can generate rivers, caves, etc. like it does normally, and then tell the biomegen "hey btw this node is supposed to be part of a river" and so it (depending on biomegen implementation) could allow this additional information to either influence in part or determine in whole the biome at that pos
18:30 hmmmm now i'm not saying that we should hardcode rivers and caves in the biomegen, but rather come up with a generic mechanism for directly assigning a certain biome id to a certain node based on the presence of a certain voxel flag
18:31 hmmmm this way the concern of what a "river" or a "cave" is still made the responsibility of the mapgen, not some other component
18:38 * sofar tries to follow
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18:40 sofar est31: did you manage to fix the player animations in the gamepad patch?
18:40 est31 yes
18:40 sofar nice
18:40 sofar so I think it's just inventory/formspec stuff left, then
18:40 est31 yeah
18:48 sofar hmmmm: it sounds like an improvement, but I'm wondering if allowing biomes to generate their own terrain wouldn't be the solution you'd actually want
18:50 hmmmm sofar:  that was my earliest attempt and it was a total wreck
18:50 hmmmm i'd need to interpolate all the bits of terrain together
18:50 sofar doesn't surprise me
18:50 sofar right
18:54 hmmmm i think it might be doable though
18:54 paramat reading
18:55 hmmmm here's an idea for a mapgen that doesn't fit the standard mold:  makeChunk generates biomes, calls an on_biome callback, a lua-defined terrain function will generate a column of terrain, then the core mapgen will interpolate that piece together :)
18:56 hmmmm will be extremely slow until script locking gets 'solved' though
19:27 paramat any comments or reviews for #4163 ?
19:27 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4163 -- Sky: Darker, bluer sky and improved horizon haze at night by paramat
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21:21 Fixer who has ubuntu 16.04? anyone can compile newest debug 64bit build to help tenplus1?
21:22 Fixer network patch did not help
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23:39 Calinou est31: :( can we stop overcaring about legacy?
23:39 Calinou https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/issues/4184#issuecomment-223714393
23:39 Calinou this is how you create another OpenGL or Windows
23:40 est31 Calinou, i dont overcare
23:40 est31 i dont care for stuff that isnt installed in the wild
23:40 est31 if sb wants to remove compat to clients that are installed by less than 5% active users, fine
23:41 est31 but I want to avoid major breakages
23:43 est31 Calinou, its also totally contrary to how minetest was built
23:43 est31 minetest has lots of backwards compat features inside
23:43 est31 I'm just taking the legacy and trying not to fuck up everything :)
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23:47 est31 But maybe we can now default send_pre_v25_init to false
23:48 Calinou [01:43:16] <est31> minetest has lots of backwards compat features inside
23:48 Calinou way too much IMO
23:48 Calinou only map format really needs to be compatible
23:48 Calinou that's about it
23:48 Calinou nobody cares if we can connect to Linux 0.1-running servers
23:51 est31 agreed, we should not give compat for too old versions
23:52 est31 but the way godot does it is IMO totally wrong
23:52 est31 devising new formats every version
23:52 est31 then breaking them in between
23:52 est31 etc
23:53 est31 Calinou, the more interesting question in that thread is whether we should use that library or not
23:53 est31 do you know of any projects using it?
23:57 est31 Calinou, part of why many minetest servers are so popular is because any client can connect to them
23:58 est31 Calinou, what would you say if 90% of your players can't connect to minetest CTF?
23:59 est31 Calinou, also it would split the community between users of the nightly builds and users of the stable versions

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