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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-04-26

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Time Nick Message
00:28 Zeno` joined #minetest-dev
00:29 Zeno` hmmmm, #2602
00:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2602 -- move particle spawners to env by obneq
00:29 * sofar yells at est31
00:29 hmmmm ah this pr
00:29 * sofar yells at est31 some more
00:29 * sofar yells at est31 some more waving fist
00:30 sofar why does est31 always manage to turn a simple PR into a lesson into C++ object inheritence ? And not because my patch is bad, but he just abstracted things behind another object layer away himself
00:31 hmmmm Zeno`, no, remember that it++ makes a copy of it and increments it, passes that along as the parameter to erase, and then sets it to the copy after all other actions on the line have executed
00:31 Zeno` hmmmm, well the original has the bug as well in that case
00:31 hmmmm foobar.erase(it++) is a common idiom for this
00:31 Zeno` huh
00:31 Zeno` yes, I changed that
00:32 Zeno` m_particle_spawners.erase(it++);
00:32 hmmmm but you can't do for (it = blah.begin(); it != blah.end(); it++) { if it is going to get invalidated at any point within the loop
00:32 Zeno` my revision doesn't
00:33 hmmmm what's wrong with what obneq has there already?
00:33 hmmmm didn't he have the idiom
00:33 hmmmm i think i told him about this too
00:33 Zeno` it's a mess
00:33 Zeno` continue and then 3 conditions
00:33 hmmmm oh
00:34 hmmmm the rest of the loop control is the problem
00:34 hmmmm kinda hard to read the code with all the notes on it
00:34 hmmmm but then you need the notes to compare with your version :D
00:35 Zeno` browser tabs :P
00:36 hmmmm so the original code is supposed to ignore non-expiring spawners, that is, those with a time less or equal to -1.f
00:36 hmmmm then for all that it doesn't ignore, it decrements a second from the timer
00:37 hmmmm if the timer is leq 0 then it erases it, otherwise advances along
00:37 hmmmm then what your revision dos is...
00:37 hmmmm if there's a positive time, (by definition non expiring timers have a negative time so they're never included), you decrement the time
00:38 hmmmm if it's < 0 then, you delete
00:38 hmmmm however if it didn't expire yet, you get caught in an infinite loop
00:38 hmmmm also should it really be < 0.0f?  or should it be <=?
00:39 Zeno` well, if it was <= then that should solve the first issue also
00:39 hmmmm i think obneq's version is clumbsier but what it's written in a more intuitive manner
00:40 hmmmm your version has a slight bug, but looks nicer
00:40 Zeno` I find obneq's version way more confusing heh
00:40 hmmmm well it's more obvious when you say what each block of code is performing out loud
00:40 Zeno` but I don't really mind
00:41 Zeno` maybe.... but it kind of interrupts flow. I don't feel that is *has* to change. I really just wanted to discuss it. Discussion done ;)
00:42 hmmmm also, with your version, an expired timer that wasn't deleted would get stuck in the list
00:42 hmmmm so in other words if arithmetic was done with no floating point error, then you have a bug.  ironically enough.
00:42 Zeno` I don't see how if the < 0 was changed to <= 0 but *shrug*
00:42 hmmmm right, you need to change the <=
00:42 hmmmm i'd change the other comparison with 0.0f to >= also
00:43 Zeno` I'll just leave it. Too hard (and I made that comment a year ago anyway lol)
00:43 hmmmm obneq's version: 0 bugs.  zeno's version: 2 bugs!
00:43 hmmmm gasp
00:44 hmmmm each of them quite fatal and subtle
00:44 hmmmm playing with iterators and floating point arithmetic is serious business
00:45 Zeno` well, hopefully obneqs version never ends up i->second == 0
00:45 Zeno` otherwise it's going to be stuck there
00:45 hmmmm oh whoops, obneq bugs:  1
00:45 Zeno` or hopefully it's never -0.5f
00:46 Zeno` obneq bugs: 2
00:46 Zeno` 1
00:46 Zeno` heh
00:46 hmmmm how can such a simple piece of code have so many problems
00:46 Zeno` well it's lucky that a year ago I decided to refactor it for some reason!
00:46 hmmmm could this piece of code be written in a manner that would make it less error prone?
00:47 hmmmm not without making it bloatier i think
00:47 est31 joined #minetest-dev
00:47 hmmmm it all comes down to cold, hard competence, and peer review
00:49 Zeno` I disagree that mine has two bugs: It has one (the same as obneqs)
00:49 hmmmm ??
00:49 hmmmm what about the infinite loop if there's a timer with 2 seconds
00:50 hmmmm er particle with 2 seconds left
00:50 Zeno` yeah the first condition will get that if it's changed to >=
00:50 est31 never use it++
00:50 hmmmm no, the iterator never advances
00:50 est31 always do ++it
00:50 Zeno` because straight after that it will be -1 seconds
00:50 hmmmm oh wait a minute
00:51 Zeno` (next time the loop runs that is)
00:51 hmmmm oh so the time left to expiry would always be effectively 1 second
00:51 hmmmm but it wouldn't have an infinite loop
00:52 est31 sofar, dont fear, you need no object inheritance knowledge to fix your patch :)
00:53 est31 just look six lines below
00:53 Zeno` so the timer would go 2.0 --> 1.0 --> 0.0 --> -1.0 (erase)
00:53 hmmmm right so to fix you'd need to change the > < to >= <= and then add a else ++it; to the erase if statement
00:53 Zeno` ok
00:53 hmmmm btw
00:53 Zeno` but why is it++ not ok on a line by itself?
00:54 hmmmm what do you mean
00:54 sofar est31: sorry, was the first thing I looked at after I got home from a long day at work :)
00:54 est31 Zeno`, it makes a copy of the iterator, which nobody needs
00:54 hmmmm if (it >= 0.0f) {  // spawners that can expire
00:54 est31 ++it makes no copy
00:54 Zeno` I mean on line 1277 in the original patch
00:55 hmmmm it->second -= 1.0f;
00:55 est31 Zeno`, it++ is less heavyweight
00:55 hmmmm if (it->second <= 0.0f) m_particle_spawners.erase(it++);
00:55 hmmmm else ++it;
00:55 Zeno` ok, so I fix that bug also
00:55 hmmmm } else {
00:55 hmmmm ++it; }
00:56 hmmmm if that "else ++it;" isn't added you'll have this situation:
00:56 est31 commit 34b7a147dcf9831f3b4d81599c473ba01ff5da00 has eliminated every it++
00:56 hmmmm particle with it->second == 2.0 encountered
00:56 est31 @ least i thinks so
00:56 est31 think*
00:56 hmmmm it->second -= 1.0f;, now it->second == 1.0f
00:56 est31 sofar, no problem
00:56 hmmmm it->second <= 0.0f condition isn't satisfied, so it does not increment it
00:56 Zeno` est31, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2602/f​iles#diff-baa4d2d0ffafdec2b86baf065fba252bR1277  <---- obneq added a note 3 hours ago
00:57 hmmmm so the next time it loops around it's stuck at the same iterator
00:57 Zeno` to his original PR (I was just comparing the two)
00:57 hmmmm and it'll again be >= 0.0f, get decremented, now it's 0.0 and will be deleted
00:57 hmmmm so the loop gets stuck at that iterator until it's either expired or was negative to begin with
00:57 Zeno` I have the else!
00:58 hmmmm which means that you can set a timer for 5000 and it'd execute in 1 second
00:58 Zeno` I just need to change it to ++it
00:58 Zeno` instead of comparing the two PRs... this is confusing
01:00 Zeno` Added <= to my code in the comment
01:01 Zeno` oh and updated to ++it instead of it++
01:01 Zeno` second not a bug, but a useless copy so dumb
01:02 hmmmm wait, where is your PR exactly
01:03 est31 he has a branch
01:03 est31 no pr
01:03 est31 linked in the pr by obneq i think
01:03 Zeno` All I did was rebase it because for some reason paramat asked me to
01:04 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/2602#issuecomment-214298812
01:04 Zeno` my rebase doesn't have my changes
01:04 Zeno` it's just rebased
01:04 hmmmm wait
01:05 hmmmm so is the version you're going with the one under "Revised after IRC discussion"?
01:05 Zeno` refresh now
01:05 Zeno` I'm not going to do anything. It's still just a code note question
01:05 hmmmm what about the it->second < 0.0f?  why not change that to <=?
01:05 Zeno` I had no intention of changing it 1 year ago and I have no intention of changing it now
01:06 hmmmm also you're still missing the else ++it;
01:06 Zeno` no I'm not. you imagined it
01:06 hmmmm yes you are
01:07 Zeno` :P
01:07 Zeno` http://dpaste.com/1M01YD7
01:07 sofar est31: I must be blind
01:07 hmmmm yea
01:07 hmmmm that's good
01:08 hmmmm buthold up
01:08 hmmmm if you don't make the it->second < 0.0f into <= that's going to cause an off-by-one error
01:08 hmmmm you add a particle with an expiry of 5 seconds
01:08 hmmmm each dtime of 1.0, 1.0 seconds gets deleted from that
01:09 Zeno` Oh dammit! Now I'm posting the wrong code... getting so confused with all these windows open
01:09 hmmmm in order to finally get deleted, it needs to go another 1.0 seconds
01:09 hmmmm so that it's *under* 0.0f
01:09 Zeno` http://dpaste.com/20VA3RQ
01:09 hmmmm again, assuming that we're on a platform where -= doesn't cause floating pointe rror
01:09 hmmmm so it'd take 6 seconds to expire
01:09 Zeno` I've closed all my browser tabs... it was getting too confusing
01:09 hmmmm yes that's good
01:10 Zeno` ok, the note in the PR is updated as well
01:10 Zeno` my job done!
01:10 hmmmm but i'd still make the first if statement >= instead of >
01:10 Zeno` wtf
01:10 Zeno` it didn't update
01:11 hmmmm because you're effectively changing the convention to "0 or below" instead of "a negative number" to mean a non-expiring particle
01:11 hmmmm so you'd need to update the docs
01:11 sofar est31: alright, sheep still path OK with your patchset
01:12 est31 yeey
01:12 Zeno` that's changed in the PR note as well
01:12 sofar btw, I've caught a few sheep that "fell" into a node
01:12 sofar I doubt it's the find_path code, though
01:13 est31 probably more likely the collision code
01:13 sofar hmm, possibly
01:13 Zeno` hmmmm, code as in comment: http://dpaste.com/2TKWPGP
01:13 sofar wondering whether I should just let the animal die or escape
01:13 hmmmm OK
01:14 Zeno` If someone wants to update the PR with the suggestion they can. My only job was to rebase heh
01:14 hmmmm wait a minute jesus christ
01:14 hmmmm now you're subtracting a double from a float
01:14 hmmmm do you re-introduce minor errors on purpose to test if i'm paying attention??
01:15 Zeno` maybe
01:15 hmmmm or nvm that was there the whole time
01:15 hmmmm please make that 1.0f
01:15 Zeno` done
01:16 hmmmm OK that chunk looks good to me
01:16 hmmmm did you have something else you wanted me to look at with that PR?
01:16 est31 <hmmmm> do you re-introduce minor errors on purpose to test if i'm paying attention?? <----- Zeno` is a bad guy
01:19 Zeno` I don't even know why it was ME who was nominated to rebase it lol
01:24 proller joined #minetest-dev
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01:32 STHGOM joined #minetest-dev
01:38 electrodude512 joined #minetest-dev
02:10 sofar LOL
02:11 sofar Zeno`: est31 does that to me, we're the ones who are getting picked on :D
02:49 DI3HARD139 joined #minetest-dev
03:05 electrodude512 joined #minetest-dev
05:04 paramat joined #minetest-dev
05:04 * paramat reads logs
05:11 Hunterz joined #minetest-dev
05:20 paramat please can anyone review milestone #4031 ? i'll do a code review myself soon
05:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4031 -- Android menu: Unified serverlist by kilbith
05:21 paramat i'll merge #4019 soon
05:21 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4019 -- Make ItemStack with different metadata not stackable by hunterdelyx1
05:22 paramat i'll soon test #4032 then that will be ready for review/merge
05:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4032 -- Mapgen: Make 3D noise tunnels' width settable by paramat
05:25 paramat i'll also merge #4033 soon
05:25 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4033 -- Fix issue #4005 and update depends by MoNTE48
05:27 paramat in fact 4032 could be reviewed now, PR is complete, just needs a test
05:42 sofar paramat: please check out the alternative way of enlarging the boom particle effect :)
05:42 sofar I think you'll like it
05:42 paramat ok
05:43 paramat i'll test it soon
05:44 paramat thanks for working on it
05:46 paramat *** freeze is tuesday night, hopefully ***
05:51 paramat now testing
05:53 paramat seems good but the boom particle is too short lived, it tends to be obscured by the smoke
05:53 paramat i'll try 0.3/0,4
05:55 sofar game#1054 updated - "keys" mod is now a full-fledged API that mods can re-use to add key-functionality to their nodes
05:55 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1054 -- Keys - allow easy sharing of access without commands by sofar
05:55 sofar yeah, 0.2 isn't long, size is OK I think though
05:55 sofar maybe even too big :D
05:58 paramat i actually prefer 0.4 or 0.5, and matching the duration of the lighting
05:58 sofar yes, that needs to be matched
05:58 sofar without light the dark particle looks weird
05:58 paramat this is fun
05:59 sofar try several explosions in a row though
05:59 sofar not sure we want to make them too long
05:59 sofar but, I'll try as well
06:00 paramat well 0.4 is ok for me
06:01 paramat i now have a beach full of holes and drops i can't be bothered to pick up
06:02 sofar my test server is like a nuclear test zone
06:02 sofar I'm actually thinking of doing something even bigger
06:02 sofar later, though
06:02 sofar but here's the idea
06:02 sofar if tnt explodes, take a vmanip and count all tnt in a 5x5x5 radius around the tnt exploding
06:03 sofar make the explosion exponentially larger the more TNT is stacked close together
06:03 sofar then explode them all at once
06:03 paramat aha
06:03 sofar and make the radius larger the more tnt blocks are present
06:03 sofar that will make bigger bangs but less chance of chains, which is good
06:04 sofar you can still get chains but you'd have to place them very carefully
06:04 sofar anyway, 0.4 + 0.4 is ok for me too
06:04 paramat ok
06:07 sofar yesterday I blew some of my sheep away :o
06:07 paramat testing, i prefer size 40, this makes it exactly 3 nodes across, this makes it more visible
06:08 paramat corresponding to a radius 1 which would be the minimum used
06:09 paramat it's more like a decent sized fireball
06:09 paramat everything else is fine
06:10 sofar 40 should be 4 nodes across
06:10 sofar it's sized by BS, so divide by 10
06:10 paramat well the flame pixels don't span the texture
06:10 sofar ah
06:11 sofar well, hm, I already think it's really big
06:11 paramat i set expirationtime 20 and measured it
06:11 sofar I don't want to obscure a ton of other particles in the process
06:11 sofar and, it's already a huge step up from the original size
06:12 jin_xi joined #minetest-dev
06:12 paramat ok well 30 is ok for me
06:12 paramat jin_xi please could you test #2602 ?
06:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2602 -- move particle spawners to env by obneq
06:13 paramat so i'll try to get a mtgame dev to review the tnt PR and hopefully merge it tues night
06:22 paramat sofar have you tested mob damage with that tnt PR?
06:23 paramat oh the sheep
06:23 sofar yes, it works
06:23 sofar I blew a sheep away and it took 8 damage
06:23 sofar which is a lot
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06:28 paramat yeah, i only ask because that's the only thing i didn't test
06:29 paramat good work on tnt it's no longer embarassing
06:29 sofar I'll actually write an on_blast() API for entities as well
06:30 sofar tnt is a riot now :)
06:34 jin_xi paramat: idk what to do with this PR. Given how badly i suck at these i wont open any new ones.
06:34 jin_xi left #minetest-dev
06:45 paramat jin we're taking care of it
06:45 paramat but it needs testing and you're ideal :)
06:48 Zeno` 2602 is fine if my recommendation is added
06:49 Zeno` (because the recommendation contains the bug fix that hmmmm and I discussed)
06:49 Zeno` but it still needs to be all tested i.e. rebase applied, the adjusted code applied and then tested
06:51 Zeno` it wasn't exactly a straightforward rebase is what I'm saying, but I can't see anything incorrect. Someone else must check though
06:52 Zeno` paramat, should I close #2602 and open a new PR?
06:52 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2602 -- move particle spawners to env by obneq
06:52 Zeno` the author will still be obneq, it'll just be from my repo
06:53 Zeno` although that's not really necessary... the .patch is there in my comment :/
06:54 paramat yeah a new PR seems good, perhaps cleaner
06:54 paramat whichever is easiest for you
06:54 Zeno` ok I'll apply the changes discussed as also
06:55 paramat yeah
06:58 jin_xi joined #minetest-dev
07:01 Zeno` there may be another bug in that file not related to the PR heh
07:02 paramat jin_xi so yes we should obviously wait for zeno's version before testing
07:02 jin_xi please take this opportunity to do one good PR and just close mine, ok?
07:02 jin_xi my repo is still shot. and yes, testing i can do, to some extent
07:03 paramat ok
07:06 Zeno` just building and doing a cursory test etc
07:08 Zeno` actually
07:08 Zeno` hmmmm's comments were wrong :(
07:08 Zeno` // Timers with lifetime 0 do not expire
07:09 Zeno` I need to look at that code more
07:09 hmmmm i don't think it's smart to make 0.0 the cutoff for non-expiring particles
07:09 Zeno` yeah I'm looking at the Lua API docs
07:09 hmmmm floating point error and all
07:10 jin_xi its stupid from the get go to complicate time and expiration
07:10 Zeno` https://github.com/minetest/min​etest/pull/2602/files#r29430826
07:10 sofar right, I'd like to see that set to e.g. -1, and then test for < -0.5 or something
07:10 hmmmm i don't think so, you just need to go about it a smarter way
07:10 hmmmm how about
07:10 Zeno` hmmmm ^--- I'm talking about the comment on 1284
07:10 Zeno` the comment should also be in the expiration code
07:10 hmmmm #define PARTICLE_DOESNT_EXPIRE FLT_MIN
07:11 hmmmm then compare == exact
07:11 hmmmm what is 1284?
07:11 hmmmm #1284
07:11 Zeno` line 1284 in u32 ServerEnvironment::addParticleSpawner(float exptime)
07:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1284 -- Errors appearing while using the chat formspec and pressing up/down arrow
07:12 Zeno` so the "rather serious bug" was more than one bug
07:12 hmmmm oh the thing about the variable time
07:12 hmmmm i don't know man
07:12 Zeno` because if a timer starts at 2.0 it should never expire according to that comment
07:12 hmmmm the particle spawner code and things related to it seem to be some of the lowest quality buggiest stuff
07:13 Zeno` so the true source of the "bug" is that there are bugs elsewhere
07:13 hmmmm perhaps
07:14 Zeno` if I apply the bug fixes discussed this morning to the expiration code then this comment and code in addParticleSpawner() becomes invalid
07:15 Zeno` Can someone at least check the rebase?
07:16 hmmmm i'm thoroughly confused but i'd like to help
07:17 hmmmm can you link me to the specific chunk of code that needs checking?
07:18 Zeno` https://github.com/obneq/minetest/blob​/movespawner/src/environment.cpp#L1284
07:18 jin_xi Zeno i think this comment refers to explain the lua-api rather than what the code does
07:19 hmmmm Zeno`, it's not really clear but it does indeed state that 0 is an infinite particlespawner lifetime
07:19 hmmmm in the docs
07:19 Zeno` hmmmm, now look at our revised expiration code!  The bug we fixed causes: a) all these invincible particles to actually be deleted; and b) if we *don't* fix it as discussed something starting with a timer of 2.0f will go, 2.0 --> 1.0 --> 0.0 (invincible)
07:20 Zeno` and never be deleted
07:20 hmmmm but what about the line of code on 1285
07:20 hmmmm doesn't that resolve the issue?
07:21 Zeno` no because the revised deleted code checks for >= 0.0
07:21 Zeno` revised deletion code*
07:21 hmmmm the way i understand it, internally, a negative number means it doesn't expire.  however an expiry of 0 for the *interface* means infinite lifetime
07:22 Zeno` yes
07:22 hmmmm why would it matter, unless particlespawners somehow got added without calling addParticleSpawner
07:22 Zeno` yeah you're right
07:22 hmmmm if what you're saying is right, then that implies there's some piece of code that bypasses the interface provided
07:22 hmmmm that's bad
07:23 Zeno` yeah I just checked usages of that function
07:23 hmmmm in any case
07:23 Zeno` so you're right
07:24 hmmmm this is why i like obneq's version of that function better
07:24 jin_xi i think given that mt is a game and many beginners make mods it would be easier to just have a field 'expires' in the lua api, default to yes. this is too complicated for such a small gain
07:24 hmmmm it explicitly handles the case of infinite particlespawners
07:24 hmmmm jin_xi:  fair enough, but you still need the old way for reverse compatibility
07:24 Zeno` hmmmm, well apply my rebase and fix jin_xi's (obneqs) version :)
07:25 hmmmm jin_xi is obneq?
07:25 hmmmm oh
07:25 Zeno` make new PR and profit!
07:25 hmmmm gosh i'd love to but i've got stuff TODO
07:25 hmmmm you should give it to RefactorNinja
07:26 paramat heh
07:26 jin_xi Shadow_Ninja please
07:27 hmmmm as long as you don't perform any arithmetic on a floating point number you'll always be able to make an exact comparison against its literal
07:27 hmmmm float foobar = 5.4f;  (foobar == 5.4f) == true always
07:27 hmmmm float foobar = 5.4; foobar == 5.4f == not necessarily true
07:27 Zeno` https://github.com/Zeno-/minetest/commit/​b619aff7c7339d408e7b2d53d5b47ca03b8eefa7
07:27 hmmmm float foobar = 5.4; foobar == 5.4 == not necessarily true
07:28 Zeno` hmmmm, I think we all know that
07:28 hmmmm so as long as you don't screw up and assign doubles to floats you should be ok
07:28 hmmmm right
07:28 hmmmm so my point is, use an actual constant to represent "this is an infinite particlespawner"
07:28 Zeno` oh I should change that to ++i asl well
07:28 hmmmm not some kind of floaty point comparison
07:28 hmmmm you can use a precise constant value as a flag
07:29 hmmmm if (i->second == PARTICLESPAWNER_NO_EXPIRY) { i++; continue; } ... blah blah blah
07:30 Zeno` https://github.com/Zeno-/minetest/commit/​153006e903ea035f3ffb2f5b5e705ba9b4c16f80
07:30 hmmmm this would avoid the whole ambiguity we discussed
07:30 Zeno` this is the *last* time I rebase a PR for somebody
07:30 hmmmm erofl
07:30 paramat sorry
07:30 hmmmm this is an old pr though
07:30 hmmmm IT SIMPLY CAN'T BE HELPED
07:31 Zeno` I get pulled into fixing stiff that I never properly reviewed in the first place :P lmao
07:32 hmmmm btw why do you keep making commits
07:32 hmmmm why not just amend the last one
07:33 Zeno` Because it's my repo and I want people to be able to SEE what I changed
07:33 Zeno` I will squash once it's seen
07:34 Zeno` because the previous commit is rebase only (I made no changes apart from rebasing)
07:35 Zeno` if I change somebody else's code I want my changes look at and approved of first :)
07:35 Zeno` (i.e. this is not my PR)
07:35 hmmmm ok fair enough
07:35 hmmmm i always hated squashing because i have to actually do editing with vi
07:35 hmmmm with amend you just :w :q
07:36 Zeno` that was just a single commit btw... github changed the hash
07:36 Zeno` (I did amend commit for changing the ++I)
07:37 Zeno` if you an jin_xi are ok with those small changes to the original PR I will squash and open a new PR closing the old one
07:38 Zeno` because jin_xi's repo is messed up and he cannot apply the patch to test :(
07:38 jin_xi please do, i do not care about authorship, but don't mind if you do care about me taking the blame for future issues...
07:38 Zeno` jin_xi, the authorship will be the same
07:39 Zeno` it's just that the PR will be coming from my repo not yours
07:39 Zeno` (and it will be me who opens the PR of course which is a github thing only)
07:42 Zeno` so am I doing this, or not? :)
07:42 Zeno` paramat, how about I make a new patch? You can apply it and make the new PR :)
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07:48 hmmmm ugh i'm upset
07:49 hmmmm i'm having trouble writing this new biome code in a manner that is sufficiently generic
07:51 Zeno` new patch is in original PR
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07:56 Zeno` sofar, paramat, hmmmm, can someone apply the patch, test and open a fresh PR if required?
07:56 hmmmm i'd love to but my bedtime is in 4 minutes
07:56 * hmmmm runs
07:57 Zeno` heh
08:18 paramat uh maybe, sorry i'm incredibly busy with release stuff plus mtgame
08:18 paramat we need help from our elusive devs
08:20 paramat but yeah i'll look at it later
08:21 Zeno` you don't have to merge
08:21 Zeno` (into minetest)
08:22 Zeno` just make a new PR :)
08:22 paramat ok
08:23 Zeno` it's still wrong
08:24 Zeno` oh that's in a different part of environment.cpp not related to the PR
08:24 Zeno` nvm
08:42 Zeno` #4038
08:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4038 -- Handle particle spawners in env and delete expired ids by Zeno-
08:42 paramat nice
08:44 paramat oops didn't mean to remove your label, that was weird
08:44 Zeno` it happens :)
08:44 Zeno` you were probably editing labels at the same moment I was lol
08:44 Zeno` github race condition!
08:45 paramat so to be clear this is apparently good for merge? (according to others)
08:45 paramat i mean the implementation
08:46 paramat ah no, it's mostly unchanged
08:46 paramat ok
08:46 Zeno` I fixed the bug discussed
08:46 Zeno` I will add an additional note to the PR
08:47 paramat no problem we can read IRC logs
08:47 Zeno` better in the comment just in case it's not obvious that I actually did modify the original PR
08:49 Zeno` there, added a reference to the exact line I changed
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08:52 est31 Anybody wants to review #4037 ?
08:52 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4037 -- Pathfinder cleanup by est31
08:53 paramat nope heh
08:53 Zeno` this is what I wanted to avoid
08:54 Zeno` but I fixed est31's comment anyway
08:54 Zeno` est31, I am not going to keep fixing somebody else's PR lol
08:54 est31 hehe
08:54 Zeno` I'll fix any minor comments you make in the next 5-10 minutes though
08:54 Zeno` as long as they're minor
08:54 Zeno` :)
08:55 paramat now should 4037 be in release?
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08:55 paramat we're a bit overstretched
08:56 Zeno` est31, I reformatted your space after for a little differently
08:57 est31 paramat, it adds a great speedup for long paths, and it has another patch for fixing behaviour that most people consider a bug
08:57 est31 esp. stuff like grass being treated non walkable
08:57 paramat hm perhaps it should then ...
08:57 est31 I kept it separated into multiple commits
08:58 est31 you can only review the first two, they require no deep knowledge of the code
08:58 est31 only code style guidelines
08:58 est31 the third commit is also comparatively easy
08:59 paramat ok well lets add it to milestones to at least consider it
09:04 paramat will merge #4019 #4033 in a moment
09:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4019 -- Make ItemStack with different metadata not stackable by hunterdelyx1
09:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4033 -- Fix issue #4005 and update depends by MoNTE48
09:07 paramat now merging
09:17 nrzkt paramat for #4019 are you sure there is no side effect ? this PR is recent, could affect many mods we didn't know
09:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4019 -- Make ItemStack with different metadata not stackable by hunterdelyx1
09:18 paramat no i'm not sure but it was reviewed by another dev
09:19 paramat freeze will show any problems
09:19 nrzkt i'm not sure in two weeks we could see really the mods effects
09:20 jin_xi wouldn't any mod who intents to maintain 'individual' items have stack_max=1 in its definitions anyway?
09:23 paramat merged
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09:50 Zeno` est31, see comment in #4038
09:50 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4038 -- Handle particle spawners in env and delete expired ids by Zeno-
09:50 Zeno` does that make sense?
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10:07 est31 Zeno`, i dont think so
10:07 est31 err
10:07 est31 you are right
10:07 est31 sorry you are right :)
10:08 * VanessaE looks at est31 and Zeno` ...  ok you two, shake hands. :P
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10:42 * Zeno` shakes his hands in the air
10:43 Zeno` hokey pokey?
10:43 * Zeno` wonders why he and est31 are doing this silly dance
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10:55 VanessaE heh
10:57 Zeno` have a good night
10:57 Zeno` err day?
10:58 Zeno` oops, wrong place. bbl :)
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12:05 paramat nore the only current milestone for mtgame is ready for review game#1039
12:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1039 -- Tnt+: Changes for TNT mod after #862 by sofar
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13:29 paramat bbl
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15:12 Foghrye4 Hi! Does someone know, why CCraftDefManager has virtual functions? It seems there is no classes, who inherit CCraftDefManager.
15:18 hmmmm it may be the convention to mark implementations or overrides of virtual functions from a base class as virtual only to serve as a reminder
15:18 nore sofar: what happens with your keys patch if you use a stack of several skeleton keys? Shouldn't they have stack_max=1?
15:24 Foghrye4 Got it, thanks.
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15:43 paramat was #4019 necessary since items with metadata usually have 'stack_max = 1'? written books do
15:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4019 -- Make ItemStack with different metadata not stackable by hunterdelyx1
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15:59 sofar paramat: yes, it's necessary because with #3984 you may end up having items that are stackable until the metadata gets modified
15:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3984 -- Turn item metadata into a key-value store while keeping compatibility to the old interface via the empty string field by orwell96
16:00 paramat ok thanks
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17:05 hmmmm oh, paramat
17:05 hmmmm whenever you're initializing a NoiseParams in an initializer list, you do not need NoiseParams() around it
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17:24 Zeno` It looks like I will see the sunrise yet again
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17:25 Zeno` hi hmmmm and hmmmmm
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17:36 hmmmmmm hey paramat, when you get back i have a couple of biome related questions for you:
17:37 hmmmmmm - currently in all biomemanager-supported mapgens, biomes are computed in bulk (calcBiomes) and individually *for each column, not just when there's an overhang*
17:37 hmmmmmm is this intended?
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17:39 hmmmmm - can you explain exactly what all the differences between generateBiomes() implementations are, and why they diverge?
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18:25 Fixer i think I catched the bug with favourites with proc mon
18:28 Fixer anyone wants to see *.csv of file monitoring?
18:35 Krock I want to see a *.csv file about *.csv file monitoring
18:35 Zeno` yeah, sure
18:36 Fixer thread was the same btw
18:36 Fixer let me prepare files
18:36 Zeno` do different threads actually modify the file?
18:37 Zeno` (or read)
18:38 Fixer i think no, in my testing
18:38 Fixer same thread id
18:38 Fixer it was strange
18:44 Fixer Zeno`, https://github.com/minetest/m​inetest/files/237248/log.zip
18:45 Fixer !tell gregorycu https://github.com/minetest/m​inetest/files/237248/log.zip possible loss at 21:21
18:45 ShadowBot Fixer: O.K.
18:48 Fixer Zeno`, loss of file probably occured at 21:21 when joined server
18:50 Zeno` "21:21:24,6027327" and "21:25:20,3477869" doesn't make sense to me
18:50 Zeno` I'll study more closely after I sleep
18:51 Zeno` oh!
18:51 Zeno` ok, cool. I may have a clue
18:51 Zeno` let me sleep first, (it's 5AM)
18:51 Zeno` thanks for the logs
18:51 Fixer np :}
18:51 Fixer finally catched it
18:52 Fixer gn
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19:28 paramat hmmmm i'll answer your questions in a moment
19:29 paramat nore sfan5 ShadowNinja please can anyone review game#1039 ? last milestone PR
19:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1039 -- Tnt+: Changes for TNT mod after #862 by sofar
19:29 paramat sofar and i have tested it
19:30 paramat freeze will be pushed back
19:31 paramat still a few engine milestones being worked on
19:31 paramat oh i chased SN away
19:33 sofar he's been swamped I guess
19:34 sfan5 paramat: game#1039 code looks good to me
19:34 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1039 -- Tnt+: Changes for TNT mod after #862 by sofar
19:34 sfan5 didn't test it though
19:35 paramat thanks
19:35 sofar it's all very small changes
19:35 Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Feature freeze (2 weeks): sometime later than 2016-04-27. Last release: 0.4.13, Aug 20 2015. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.net/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
19:35 paramat heh thanks
19:35 kaadmy :}
19:35 paramat hopefully in a couple of days
19:35 paramat weekend at latest
19:36 paramat hmmmm, calcBiomes calculates the 2D biomemap at the heightmap surface, the highest surface in the mapchunk. the biomemap is used when decos are placed because decos are only placed on the heightmap surface
19:37 paramat however
19:39 paramat in generateBiomes the biome surface material and biome stone and biome water is placed. see the notes in the function, while working down each column biome is (re)calculated for each surface encountered (air-solid, air-liquid, liquid-solid)
19:41 paramat so that biome materials respect biome y-limits. multiple layers of biomes within a mapchunk are possible, essential for beaches, ocean biomes etc
19:41 paramat so yes it's intended
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19:45 paramat for dry land with no overhangs we could theoretically use the biomemap entry in generatebiomes, but to do that we would need to know that there are no overhangs, which would involve searching through a column
19:46 paramat it's simpler to just calculate it as it's currently done as surfacces are encountered
19:46 paramat (surfaces)
19:47 paramat during the actual biome material generation
19:48 paramat generateBiomes is identical for mgv5, mgv7, mgflat, mgfractal
19:48 paramat but different in mgvalleys because of river_water
19:49 paramat and mgwatershed has a generateBiomes similar to mgvalleys due to river_water, but probably different again due to other additional features
19:50 paramat :)
19:53 paramat i'll merge tnt PR soon
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19:55 Fixer added more data to issue #4023, log of file operations when bug appears (i hope I catched it)
19:55 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4023 -- New unified favourites can disappear after game exit
19:55 paramat good
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19:56 hmmmm yea but biomes are being calculated twice though
19:57 paramat hm, i guess if a surface is at heightmap we can use the biomemap result instead
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19:59 paramat ok something to consider
19:59 paramat i can work on it after release
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20:00 hmmmm the biomemap is used in decorations, ores, caves, and dust
20:00 hmmmm all of which come after generateBiomes()
20:00 hmmmm paramat, I'm working on it
20:01 paramat ok
20:02 hmmmm just need to remove bmgr->calcBiomes and have generateBiomes construct the biomemap
20:02 paramat it could be a 3D biomemap
20:02 hmmmm as i understand it, biomes in generateBiomes go from the top down, so the last biome to be selected should be the surface area
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20:03 hmmmm erm i mean the surface level
20:03 paramat it could be seabed
20:04 Fixer offtop, but could you guys add more lakes on different heights than 0?
20:05 paramat the last biome selected is not necessarily significant
20:05 paramat Fixer mgwatershed does that
20:05 paramat as part of the rivers
20:07 paramat i worked for ages on various methods for highland lakes, very difficult
20:12 paramat hmmmm the first biome calculation in a column (in generateBiomes) would be equivalent to the current biomemap as that would be the highest surface
20:13 hmmmm the seabed is considered the surface level
20:14 paramat yes heightmap records seabed
20:14 hmmmm what you're thinking of is surface elevation from sea level, which is essentially MIN(heightmap[i], water_level)
20:14 hmmmm err, MAX
20:14 hmmmm but my point is
20:15 hmmmm the last biome calculated for a given column will always be equivalent to the results of calcBiomes() with the heightmap generated by generateTerrain()
20:15 paramat yes for generateBiomes an air-liquid surface triggers a biome recalculation, because we have biome-specific water
20:16 hmmmm right, so the only exception to this rule is if the seabed is below the current chunk
20:16 paramat no the first, generateBiomes works top-down
20:16 hmmmm right it works from the top down
20:16 hmmmm so the highest ridge would be the first biome
20:17 hmmmm so on and so forth
20:17 hmmmm then it might hit the air-water boundary
20:17 hmmmm then it might hit the water-stone boundary
20:17 hmmmm in either case, as long as the seabed is contained in the current chunk that'd be the last biome calculated for that specific column
20:17 paramat yeah
20:18 paramat heightmap is the highest surface in a mapchunk, so that's the first biome calculation
20:18 paramat oh apart from sea
20:18 hmmmm the heightmap generated by generateTerrain works purely off of noise (not probing) so the results will always be the absolute terrain height
20:18 hmmmm so let's say we're really high up in the sky
20:19 hmmmm the biome for that column, according to calcBiomes(), would be the same biome as at surface level
20:19 paramat no, updateHeightmap is used which searches down through columns
20:19 hmmmm oh you're right, i didn't realize updateHeightmap was run before calcBiomes
20:20 hmmmm but doesn't updateHeightmap keep the previous result if it can't find a node in the current chunk?
20:20 paramat erm
20:20 hmmmm so if the heightmap has -50 for one of the columns, the current chunk is ranging from y=200 to y=150, updateHeightmap will scan through that column from 200 to 150 and find no node
20:21 hmmmm so because it can't find a node it'd trust the old result of -50
20:21 paramat not sure
20:21 hmmmm that is, unless you changed it since i wrote updateHeightmap
20:22 paramat Returns -MAX_MAP_GENERATION_LIMIT if not found
20:22 hmmmm you changed it
20:22 hmmmm :|
20:22 hmmmm okay this blows away some of my assumptions
20:22 hmmmm see what happens when you have two chefs in the kitchen
20:24 hmmmm and you never updated calcBiomes
20:24 paramat i changed it, but before it returned ymin
20:25 paramat https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/d463000595ee2b8bce94e5b99e764be6e1fd52f6
20:25 hmmmm so this means calcBiomes is computing incorrect biomes if part of the ground level is outside of the current chunk
20:25 hmmmm yes, and you changed it in a commit before tat too
20:26 paramat where? can't find it
20:26 hmmmm idk but that's not important right now
20:26 hmmmm so in other words, everything that relies on the biomemap got the wrong biomes
20:28 hmmmm okay before all this manipulation happened, the heightmap would always have the results from the perlin noise, and thus the biomes would be partially correct every time a chunk is generated in the air
20:28 hmmmm i say partially correct because in the same situation before the change was made, this didn't account for the 3d noise
20:29 paramat i guess an incorrect biome is not a problem if the terrain is not found in a column
20:29 hmmmm paramat, i think the current setup is too complicated
20:29 paramat nothing is generated
20:30 hmmmm it's not that we're too dumb to understand it, it's just that nobody is smart enough to get it right and keep it right without errors throughout the entire SDLC
20:30 hmmmm lots of regressions
20:30 paramat it works fine
20:30 hmmmm i'm sorry but it works fine right now but it's a bitch and a half to maintain
20:31 paramat not for me, i understand it well
20:32 paramat i spent a year of full time work finishing and tuning the system you started
20:32 hmmmm then how come calcBiomes returns bogus results for chunks in the sky
20:32 hmmmm my point is that nobody can get every detail 100% right'
20:32 hmmmm now i hate to keep referring back to minecraft, but seriously, what about minecraft?
20:33 hmmmm their biome system is vastly less complicated and works fantastic
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20:33 hmmmm just a simple 2d map over everything, no concern given to ridges or anything of the sort
20:33 paramat i doubt it's less complex, and it's inferior
20:33 hmmmm and if you're concerned about beaches or whatever
20:33 hmmmm i have a solution for that
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20:42 paramat oh poo i did remove the fallback to previous heightmap when ground is not found, sorry
20:43 paramat just saw it
20:45 paramat hmmmm please don't trash a good system in a huge change, we can improve it in small steps
20:45 hmmmm i don't want to trash anything
20:45 hmmmm if it's done right, it'll be one option of several others
20:45 hmmmm that's why it's BiomeGenOriginal
20:45 paramat good
20:46 paramat so yes we should fallback to the original heightmap, i'm not sure why i changed that
20:47 paramat i really don't like the idea of long-lived biome caches
20:48 paramat that's overcomplex in anticipation of overcomplex needs in the future
20:48 hmmmm i'm not even thinking about biome caches right now
20:48 hmmmm i just wanted to go forth with an idea so i'm not required to rewrite everything once i do add it
20:49 paramat i see
20:49 hmmmm so here's what i want to do:
20:49 hmmmm put generateBiomes() into BiomeGen
20:49 hmmmm like DungeonGen places its own nodes, generateBiomes will do the same
20:50 hmmmm this makes it so that choosing a different biome gen selects a different way of placing the biomes, in addition to figuring out which biome goes where
20:50 hmmmm so you could in theory have a 3d biome system in addition to a 2d one
20:50 paramat with the option of generateBiomes being different if needed for a certain mapgen?
20:50 hmmmm no
20:50 hmmmm why does it need to be different?
20:51 paramat i explained in my 2nd answer earlier
20:51 hmmmm the more exceptions you make, the more difficult things become to code and maintain
20:51 hmmmm let me read up.
20:51 paramat that would be very inflexible and would make more specialised mapgens impossible
20:52 hmmmm is mgwatershed part of minetest right now?
20:52 paramat it will be very soon
20:52 paramat and mgvalleys is different
20:53 paramat the ability to have generateBiomes different if needed is very useful
20:53 paramat however yes it is identical in 4 maogens
20:53 paramat (mapgens)
20:54 paramat (chairman mao gens)
20:54 hmmmm oh i agree, it's just that it's hard to work with when you have a potentially different generateBiomes for each biome generator && each mapgen
20:54 hmmmm so that implies number_of_mapgens * number_of_biomegens is the number of different generateBiomes there'd need to be
20:55 hmmmm most of them should be the same, it's just the instance where one specific combination of mapgen and biomegen is different
20:55 paramat although generateBiomes differs, they all still just call getBiome(x, y, z)
20:55 hmmmm yes but
20:55 hmmmm getBiome(x, y, z)
20:56 hmmmm what if a different biomegen gets implemented, and this getBiome only takes (x, z)
20:56 hmmmm what if it takes a new type of input that isn't height, heat, or humidity
20:56 hmmmm maybe mapgen is too ambitious
20:57 hmmmm modularizing is always good, but maybe i ought to scale back the scope of my plans
20:58 paramat this is what i mean by 'trashing' in anticipation of a distant ideal that may never happen
20:58 paramat it's better to gradually work with what we have
20:59 paramat in an effort to generalize we would be throwing away the good things we have now
21:00 hmmmm honestly, i can't help but look at the current architecture and look at how incredibly limited it is
21:00 hmmmm there's so much wasted potential
21:00 hmmmm if you creep by with marginal changes forever, though, there will never be any kind of big development
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21:00 hmmmm nothing noteworthy, or compelling, rather
21:01 paramat over time the mapgens and systems you started have become awesome because i gradually refined them
21:02 hmmmm yea, that's what refinement does
21:02 paramat i don't mind new potential but we should preserve what we have
21:03 hmmmm on another note i do way too much talking and not enough development
21:05 paramat so anyway, my request is, the ability for generateBiomes to be different for a mapgen if desired
21:21 paramat hmmmm here's why i changed updateHeightmap https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2451 possibly not a good move, sorry. i'm happy to work on returning to the previous functionality
21:28 paramat now merging game 1039 at last
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21:39 paramat merged!
21:40 paramat TNT is really good now. all game milestones closed :D
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22:08 Fixer MTG ones?
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22:18 sofar Fixer: yes, mtg
22:28 hmmmm paramat:  i don't think reverting it will help that much
22:28 hmmmm the regular heightmap is still going to be wrong due to the lack of 3d noise so what's the difference?
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22:46 paramat hmmmm, heh yeah i just realised that
22:56 paramat milestone #4032 is tested and ready for review, but hmmmmm i don't expect you to, since you're busy and focussed :]
22:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4032 -- Mapgen: Make 3D noise tunnels' width settable by paramat
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