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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-02-15

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Time Nick Message
00:03 Fritigern joined #minetest-dev
00:20 paramat joined #minetest-dev
00:22 paramat RealBadAngel see new comments in 3695
00:23 RealBadAngel ok
00:26 RealBadAngel paramat, ok with space after "if", but im using brackets for every oneliner if, for or whatever
00:26 paramat ok no problem
00:27 RealBadAngel that makes "harder" to make stupid mistakes when modyfing or reading code later on
00:31 RealBadAngel paramat, fixed
00:31 paramat unit tests failed in one of the builds, lets see what re-triggering the builds does
00:32 rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev
00:34 RealBadAngel those unit tests are pretty funny
00:34 RealBadAngel i saw it starting all over several times one day in a PR
00:34 RealBadAngel once failing once passing
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00:38 Taoki joined #minetest-dev
00:39 Hijiri actually it seems like non-fleshy damage types are working after all??
00:39 Hijiri I'm not sure what's happening
00:42 Hijiri ok
00:42 fireglow joined #minetest-dev
00:42 Hijiri I think I see
00:42 Hijiri the reason I thought it wasn't working was because 3d_armor mod was healing the player before I could notice
00:49 fireglow joined #minetest-dev
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01:12 RealBadAngel paramat, https://travis-ci.org/minete​st/minetest/builds/109250373
01:12 paramat good ok
01:20 RealBadAngel after that please close issue #3702
01:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3702 -- Liquids Rendering issue
01:21 paramat ok
01:35 sofar paramat: you're making the game too easy :)
01:39 paramat could make wheat seeds only dropped by junglegrass, that can be a 5000 node walk
01:40 sofar having them drop from normal grass is fine
01:40 sofar I just don't like that with hands they drop grass nodes
01:40 sofar it would actually make swords useful in minetest_game
01:41 RealBadAngel to harvest seeds? thats indeed fine usage for swords :P
01:41 sofar no
01:41 sofar opposite
01:41 sofar without swords you can't get leaves, grass or junglegrass
01:41 sofar with swords you will never get seeds
01:41 sofar just grass or leaves
01:41 RealBadAngel still
01:42 RealBadAngel better make a machete for that ;)
01:42 sofar I was suggesting something like that
01:42 sofar but swords are already in the game, and that's fine as well
01:43 sofar the actual tool isn't pertinent
01:44 RealBadAngel but nobody saw ever farmers running around with swords to get some seeds anyway ;)
01:44 RealBadAngel or a few leaves
01:45 sofar it's not the important part of the change needed
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01:48 sofar introducing a machete without the other part will never get accepted, anyway
01:51 VanessaE that said, don't most folks who DO go out roughing it use an axe or hatchet to gather leaves?
01:52 sofar why would you? it wears down the tool and hands have the same result
01:52 sofar that's exactly my problem with it :)
01:52 VanessaE not saying you should in-game
01:52 VanessaE rather that it doesn't matter if it's an axe or a sword or something else
01:53 sofar axe is fine too
01:53 VanessaE though I guess one wouldn't even begin to consider using a shovel ;)
01:53 sofar I honestly don't care, as lnog as it's a sharp tool :)
03:13 jhcole sofar: I really like the new doors api but I'm having trouble with backface_culling. It doesn't seem to be working. is this just me?
03:23 RealBadAngel huh, got those nametags ALMOST working
03:24 RealBadAngel i do have all the nametags (pos and text) already on HUD side only
03:25 RealBadAngel now the black magic :)
03:25 RealBadAngel btw, with this i will solve at least 3 issues lol
03:26 RealBadAngel nametags hidden behind water, opaque halo, and all the liquids transparency issues
03:30 sofar jhcole: update minetest
03:31 sofar RealBadAngel: can you fade nametags with distance?
03:31 RealBadAngel sofar, easily if requested
03:32 jhcole sofar: i'm built from commit 3a74b84
03:32 sofar jhcole: what exactly is the problem?
03:34 jhcole sofar: the backface is visible
03:34 sofar on which door?
03:34 jhcole sofar: for wood and steels doors
03:34 jhcole and a door i'm trying to add via the api
03:35 sofar did you make sure to restart the server?
03:35 jhcole yeah
03:35 sofar screenshot (fullscreen pls, with f5 debug enabled)
03:37 sofar well, it's still working for me. did you modify door code or anything? can I see your door registration def?
03:39 sofar updated myself to 3a74b84 and it's still fine
03:39 sofar jhcole: ?
03:40 jhcole sofar: i'm working on getting a good screenshot
03:40 jhcole sofar: just a sec
03:43 sofar you know f12 works, right?
03:44 jhcole sofar: http://imgur.com/kDZeQGu
03:45 jhcole i wanted to get the scene right
03:45 sofar so what version of minetest is running on the server?
03:45 jhcole i just built the latest commit tonight, its running in place
03:46 jhcole latest minetest and latest minetest_game
03:46 sofar and the client is dirty? local modifications to the tree?
03:47 jhcole i think its saying that because there are a few archive files inthe root dir from previous builds
03:47 sofar are you running the client from the same in place location?
03:48 jhcole oh sh*t
03:49 sofar well no, poop is most likely not the reason
03:49 jhcole no my client is out of date, running wrong machine
03:49 sofar yes, old clients will not see culled mesh nodes
03:50 jhcole cool, I wish i would have thought of that :)
03:50 sofar no worries, you're not the first today that claimed my code was broken :)
03:51 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/fWUp96b.png
03:51 * RealBadAngel yawns
03:51 sofar navel name tag
03:52 RealBadAngel its in HUD now
03:54 RealBadAngel ha, it will be possible to make nice screenshots on servers without all those nametags around
03:54 jhcole sofar: I actually think its a great improvement. I'm trying to update the landrush shared_door to use the new api, but i found i need do some checking to see if the door's area is shared, so i modified the door api to accept an on_rightclick in def
03:55 sofar show me those changes, I'd like to see them
03:55 sofar (I have a few door fixes already pending)
03:55 sofar I want to make sure we keep the code cleaned up well
03:55 jhcole sofar: ok, i'll push in a few minutes and link
04:06 sofar jhcole: this for a subgame, I suppose?
04:07 jhcole sofar: i guess so, what the definition of a subgame? its for the LLM II server at 162.211.32.154
04:09 sofar well if you're patching minetest_game you either submit those changes for merging or you are maintaining a subgame :)
04:19 loggingbot_ joined #minetest-dev
04:19 Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Last release: 0.4.13, Aug 20 2015. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
04:21 RealBadAngel so,http://i.imgur.com/IFoFJRO.png
04:22 RealBadAngel finished, will clean and push that after a nap
04:22 jhcole https://github.com/FozLand/landrush/commit/096​b39518241e594d14e4c73063b766e47600968https://g​ithub.com/FozLand/minetest_game/commits/doors
04:23 jhcole that was supposed to be two separate links https://github.com/FozLand/landrush/commit​/096b39518241e594d14e4c73063b766e47600968 and https://github.com/FozLand/​minetest_game/commits/doors
04:50 loggingbot_ joined #minetest-dev
04:50 Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Last release: 0.4.13, Aug 20 2015. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
05:03 paramat !tell rubenwardy see new comment in #3140
05:03 ShadowBot paramat: O.K.
06:03 paramat now merging #3695
06:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3695 -- Use vertices with tangents only when its needed. by RealBadAngel
06:12 paramat merged, and closed issue 3702
06:20 sofar nice, it feels slightly faster
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06:39 paramat i've just tested with camera offset step of 31000 and made snow nodeboxes 1/16th node thick, i only noticed them blinking at roughly 1000 nodes altitude
06:56 paramat hm with 1/32th node nodeboxes they start to get bad at 200 nodes distance, so the current setting may be necessary
07:00 paramat .. depending on how common 1/32th nodeboxes are
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07:06 paramat retesting, even 1/16th nodeboxes start to get glitchy at 200 nodes
07:08 paramat so setting seems good, closing issue
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07:12 RealBadAngel paramat, if only one specific drawtype is wrong, that means nothing other that theres something wrong with the drawtype not the camera
07:16 RealBadAngel so, what about fading nametags with distance?
07:17 RealBadAngel shall i add it? hmmmm, kahrl, nore, sfan5 ?
07:17 VanessaE RealBadAngel: PLEASE DO.
07:17 sofar yeah man, please do
07:17 RealBadAngel any ideas on actual distance?
07:18 VanessaE fade to the same distance as the current view range
07:18 VanessaE maybe go say 100m past that.
07:18 VanessaE I shouldn't see a player's name 2000 nodes away if I can only see out to 500 or whatever
07:19 VanessaE well, maybe have a fade limit
07:19 sofar I would fade at math.max(camera distance, 100)
07:19 sofar wheps
07:19 VanessaE barely readable once they get out past the fog, but no more faded than that.
07:19 VanessaE (if that makes sense)
07:19 RealBadAngel remember that im fixing rendering distance too with another commit, so actual vRange will be a REAL limit of what you can see
07:19 sofar I would fade at math.min(camera distance, 100)
07:19 sofar the lower of 100 or camera distance
07:20 sofar don't even bother going past camera distance
07:20 sofar or more than 100 nodes
07:20 VanessaE 100 nodes might be a bit short.
07:20 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/YyiUNzZ.png
07:20 VanessaE it only takes a matter of seconds to run that far
07:20 RealBadAngel thats 40 nodes distance
07:20 sofar I don't think you can see players from that far
07:21 VanessaE that's fair - if you can't discern the actual player model, you shouldn't be able to hardly see the name at that point
07:21 RealBadAngel fog here is adjusted to match the view distance
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07:21 VanessaE player models themselves ought to fade too, but I don't think they do (do they?)
07:21 VanessaE (I don't remember)
07:21 RealBadAngel with my changes they do
07:21 VanessaE RealBadAngel: got a before-and-after of that 40m range?
07:21 RealBadAngel without theyre always visible
07:21 VanessaE I'm having trouble mentally comparing it
07:22 RealBadAngel ok
07:22 VanessaE of course there probably should be a config option to disable the fading behavior
07:23 VanessaE (even better:  hide nametags when HUD is hidden)
07:23 RealBadAngel but first: player at edge of 40m http://i.imgur.com/2RC5wel.png
07:23 VanessaE I see it.  barely :)
07:24 RealBadAngel VanessaE, theyre part of hud now, so its obvious theyre gone when you turn hud off
07:24 VanessaE how about the distance limit of a nametag be double your current view distance, or 100m, whichever is more.
07:24 RealBadAngel can try
07:25 VanessaE [02-15 02:23] <sofar> I would fade at math.max(camera distance, 100)  <-- camera distance * 2
07:26 sofar why show name plates for players well outside visual range?
07:26 VanessaE so that you can follow them
07:27 sofar it makes pvp way too easy
07:27 VanessaE maybe.
07:29 RealBadAngel it can be optional, so pvp servers could turn fading on
07:30 sofar well so, the easiest way is to make less configure options that can achieve more ways of configuring
07:30 RealBadAngel also we can toggle it with a key
07:30 sofar don't make it client-abusable
07:30 RealBadAngel if server wont allow it wont work
07:30 sofar allow the server to set it?
07:30 RealBadAngel same as with minimap
07:31 sofar server should be able to set the max
07:31 sofar clients should be able to turn off plates and choose lower range?
07:31 sofar max = 0 -> server forces plates off entirely
07:32 sofar max = -1 -> server allows plates on range at any level
07:32 sofar that way everything is possible (except make it camera distance dependent
07:32 sofar you could reset the client to some camera dependent value, though
07:33 RealBadAngel i think we shall leave that for discussion because it can really affect gameplay
07:34 RealBadAngel im already calculating distance to the point so applying it is easy
07:34 RealBadAngel (code is using same math as waypoints)
07:48 kahrl RealBadAngel: regarding #3705, I have figured out a possible reason where the 1.1 factor came from
07:48 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3705 -- Fix too agressive block culling by RealBadAngel
07:48 kahrl see https://gist.github.com/kahrl/379e39767da95ff16bc7
07:48 kahrl (octave code)
07:49 kahrl fov_x/2 is the angle between the center of the screen and the top center of the screen
07:49 kahrl (or bottom center)
07:50 kahrl similarly, fov_y/2 is the angle between the center of the screen and the left center of the screen (or right center)
07:50 kahrl but the angle between the center of the screen and a *corner* of the screen is larger than both of these
07:50 kahrl my code in that gist computes that angle
07:51 kahrl isBlockInSight uses max(fov_x/2, fov_y/2) with some minor adjustments for culling
07:51 kahrl therefore, it sometimes culls mapblocks that are in the corner of the screen
07:52 nrzkt2 RealBadAngel, kahrl i didn't understand what this PR is for
07:52 kahrl as I computed, the angle to the corner is 1.10421165985322 as large as max(fov_x/2, fov_y/2)
07:53 RealBadAngel kahrl, so it looks like my empirical 1.1 is right :)
07:53 kahrl nrzkt2: load a bunch of terrain, press r to enable full range, then fly above the terrain
07:53 RealBadAngel r is not needed even
07:53 kahrl nrzkt2: sometimes mapblocks in the corner of the screen get culled
07:53 kahrl RealBadAngel: yeah
07:53 RealBadAngel fly up 100 nodes
07:54 RealBadAngel look down
07:54 kahrl RealBadAngel: but without it the culling may be because the mapblock is out of range, so r avoids that
07:54 RealBadAngel and around while still lookin down
07:54 kahrl RealBadAngel: well, the 1.1 is right with the aspect ratio and fov_y I used in that computation
07:54 RealBadAngel ofc
07:54 kahrl RealBadAngel: like I mentioned at the end, with other inputs the factor can get close to sqrt(2)
07:54 nrzkt2 the translation for culling is very strange in fact :p
07:55 kahrl RealBadAngel: but we definitely don't want to multiply the angle by sqrt(2), that's waaay to large
07:55 kahrl too*
07:56 RealBadAngel need to go out now, will you make PR with proper math?
07:56 kahrl I might try, not sure if I'll succeed
07:57 kahrl I've yet to understand the math behind adjdist
08:01 RealBadAngel ok
08:03 RealBadAngel just a thought maybe modifying my magic number with aspect ratio will do
08:05 RealBadAngel less math, faster
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08:07 RealBadAngel this is done per each mapblock in range every frame, so less math the better
08:10 kahrl I think in general much of isBlockInSight could be precomputed once per frame
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08:13 kahrl maybe isBlockInSight should first do a very coarse check (that never falsely culls a mapblock, but may fail to cull some mapblocks that could be culled)
08:13 kahrl then if a mapblock passed that test, do a more precise test
08:13 kahrl perhaps something like http://www.gamedev.net/topic/512123-fast-​-and-correct-frustum---aabb-intersection/
08:15 kahrl hrmm, I just noticed that my fov_x calculation wasn't entirely correct
08:16 kahrl the correct one should be: fov_x = atan(aspect_ratio * tan(fov_y / 2)) * 2
08:16 kahrl but if I do the the factor comes out as 1.14423462298424
08:16 kahrl if I do that*
08:18 Megaf ShadowNinja, #3699 =/
08:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3699 -- Use SQLite's R*Tree to store rollback node positions by ShadowNinja
08:19 paramat about nametag distance, we have a 'player_transfer_distance' setting that makes it settable
08:19 kahrl maybe #3705 was "close enough" to 1.14423462298424 if you count in the adjdist stuff and so on, so that it worked
08:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3705 -- Fix too agressive block culling by RealBadAngel
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08:37 Megaf folks, minetest's cmake can't find any jpeg here. Could NOT find JPEG (missing: JPEG_LIBRARY JPEG_INCLUDE_DIR)
08:38 Megaf but I have all jpeg libs it could ask for http://paste.debian.net/plain/388375
08:39 kahrl Megaf: do you have the include files for libjpeg?
08:41 Megaf -DJPEG_LIBRARY=/usr/lib/x86_64-​linux-gnu/libopenjpeg.so.1.5.2 didnt help either
08:41 Megaf kahrl, I don't know, it always worked... well, worked months ago when I last played Minetest, I've been using only my fork, that doesn't have jpeg support at all....
08:42 Megaf -DJPEG_LIBRARY=/usr/lib/x86_64-​linux-gnu/libopenjpeg.so.1.5.2 -DJPEG_INCLUDE_DIR=/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/
08:42 Megaf this seems to have worked...
08:43 kahrl huh
08:43 kahrl why would there be include files in /usr/lib
08:43 Megaf you are the minetest dev, you tell me :P
08:44 kahrl well I guess there aren't, but cmake might skip checking for them if you pass it all the paths and assumes you know what you're doing
08:45 kahrl and you might get a working build since minetest never actually includes jpeglib.h
08:48 Megaf kahrl, IMHO jpeg support could be disabled entirely
08:48 Megaf disabled/removed
08:48 kahrl you typically can't
08:49 kahrl if you install irrlicht through your distro's package manager it includes jpeg loading support, so it has to be linked with the jpeg lib
08:50 kahrl the only way around that would be to compile irrlicht without jpeg support (or let the distro do that, if you're gentoo or similar)
08:50 kahrl you're using*
08:51 Megaf I did in my fork, didn't notice any drawback in any server
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08:52 Megaf <kahrl> you typically can't
08:52 Megaf <Megaf> I did in my fork, didn't notice any drawback in any server
08:52 kahrl well, the server doesn't load images anyway
08:52 kahrl jpeg is only required if you set BUILD_CLIENT=1
08:53 kahrl oh, you mean you built a client without it and it works on any server?
08:54 Megaf sorry, I think I'm not making myself clear. So, I forked Minetest, and removed bits of code related to JPEG, so basically, it will no longer check and use JPEG. Doesn't matter if server or client
08:54 Megaf yep, that's what I meant
08:54 kahrl yeah, almost all textures are .png
08:54 kahrl I wouldn't say that 100% of them are though
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08:55 Megaf sure enough I did in a imprecise and somewhat incorrect way since I'm not a developer and I don't fully understand MT code. But still, works quite well
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10:40 kilbith since 0.4.13 is 6 months old, can we start talking about a new release ?
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12:40 sfan5 Megaf: you'll still need to link to jpeg if irrlicht links to it though
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13:01 RealBadAngel #3712
13:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3712 -- Move object nametags to HUD by RealBadAngel
13:02 RealBadAngel est31, kahrl, nrzkt2  can you take a look?
13:06 est31 what the hell
13:06 est31 object nametags have nothing to do with HUD
13:06 est31 they dont belong there, not at all
13:07 est31 RealBadAngel, is there any actual reason to do this
13:07 RealBadAngel lots of reasons, you will be suprised :)
13:07 RealBadAngel remember water going opaque?
13:07 RealBadAngel or halo?
13:08 RealBadAngel irrlicht text scene node is bugged and is messing with materials
13:09 RealBadAngel thats a). b) is that text is not a part of world geometry. otherwise it will be shaded like everything. and will cause depth frenzy, text dont write to depth buffers
13:10 RealBadAngel even if text node wont be buggy it will have to go
13:10 est31 even if it interfered with shaders, which is a legitimate reason, it should not be managed by HUD
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13:10 RealBadAngel it should, its text displayed on HUD, like everything else
13:10 est31 HUD is for stuff not related to the env
13:11 est31 stuff thats about the player itself
13:11 RealBadAngel its info shown above the player
13:11 est31 yes but other players not you
13:11 RealBadAngel not a texture, not a real object
13:11 RealBadAngel info is show to you
13:11 RealBadAngel *shown
13:12 est31 info is shown to all
13:12 est31 also, when I hide the hud the nametags should stay
13:12 est31 so -1 from me
13:12 RealBadAngel so each player can see it on own hud
13:12 RealBadAngel est31, are you aware how many issues that PR fixes?
13:12 est31 like?
13:12 RealBadAngel hold on
13:14 celeron55 i don't think it's actually important whether the dictionary definition of HUD includes those or not
13:14 celeron55 focusing on the quality of the implementation makes more sense
13:15 celeron55 it looks quite straightforward to me which means it might just as well be there; but this isn't a full review
13:17 RealBadAngel cant find the issues, those are years old
13:17 RealBadAngel mainly, it broke everything transparent in multiplayer
13:18 RealBadAngel so water becoming randomly opaque, halo etc
13:18 RealBadAngel kilbith grouped them all in one open issue, just cant locate it now
13:19 RealBadAngel celeron55, my goal atm is to clean world renderer from things that dont belong to it, texts are not a part of the world, whatever one can say
13:20 est31 texts aren't part of the HUD either
13:20 est31 next you want to draw particles via the HUD?
13:20 RealBadAngel imho the HUD is more than a proper place for it
13:20 est31 or meshgen?
13:20 RealBadAngel ofc not
13:21 RealBadAngel particles are world object
13:21 RealBadAngel can be shaded, have depth etc
13:22 RealBadAngel please do try to understand that, its not like i want to move them just for sake of moving
13:22 RealBadAngel i do have valid reasons to do so
13:23 RealBadAngel that , to my suprise, it fixes shitload of bugs meanwhile is just side effect
13:23 est31 it would be cool if you were a bit more transparent
13:23 est31 and if we found a better place to put them than HUD
13:23 RealBadAngel est31, sorry but i explained many times here what im doing and what for
13:24 RealBadAngel im fixing all the stuff that is made wrong way to get deffered renderer workin
13:24 RealBadAngel you can check channel logs
13:25 est31 <RealBadAngel> you can check channel logs <---- sorry its too noisy I want to do other stuff than minetest as well
13:26 RealBadAngel i can make a roadmap of what i have to do if you wish
13:26 RealBadAngel im not forcing anything
13:26 est31 Put it on gist.github.com or somewhere you can edit it
13:26 est31 it would help :)
13:26 RealBadAngel sure, np
13:27 celeron55 i agree with moving the tags out from the world rendering even while i probably disagree with everything RBA is going to do after cleaning it up 8)
13:27 RealBadAngel celeron55, would you disagree with real lighting?
13:27 RealBadAngel it wont be any slower than what we have now
13:28 celeron55 i don't believe you can make it work reasonably for caves and non-outside places
13:28 RealBadAngel im planning to mix both systems
13:28 celeron55 but if you do make it actually work, then i might not disagree with it
13:29 celeron55 but until that happens, i'm going to be your biggest roadblock in getting it upstream
13:29 RealBadAngel we will see, theres lots to do before i can make it real
13:29 RealBadAngel celeron55, sure thing
13:29 celeron55 i'm actually curious in seeing how it works once it does
13:29 RealBadAngel im just coding things the best way i can
13:29 celeron55 because there have been many theories around here about how to go about it, but nothing has been actually done
13:30 RealBadAngel you must admit that im doing also other things on my way, ones that wasnt fixed since ages, so it goes for good, no matter the end result
13:31 RealBadAngel yup, there were many theories, but doesnt it look like i have a plan with what im doing lately?
13:31 celeron55 i don't really care 8)
13:31 RealBadAngel hehe
13:32 RealBadAngel we will see the end result, ok?
13:32 celeron55 i'm just looking at the end results
13:32 RealBadAngel thats a sure thing, but look also at what im fixing going there
13:32 est31 just it would be best to only have end results in master
13:32 est31 not like with stuff like weather
13:33 RealBadAngel atm everything im touching ends with fixing long time issues
13:33 nrzkt2 est31 you follow me :p
13:33 est31 nrzkt2, lol no
13:33 RealBadAngel texture tear, glitched wielded, transparency bugs, too agressive occlusion
13:34 nrzkt2 yes irrlicht devs should switch into github, stop using MANY \r in their code and stopping doing SVN :
13:34 nrzkt2 using*
13:34 nrzkt2 :p
13:34 RealBadAngel also camera fixes gave +10% fps for free
13:34 est31 nrzkt2, I looked up the github mirror because I've wanted to find out something
13:34 est31 nrzkt2, not related to you
13:34 nrzkt2 :p
13:34 nrzkt2 no problem ^^
13:35 est31 nrzkt2, full agree, there are many things irrlicht could improve.
13:35 RealBadAngel est31, but back to HUD or not to HUD ;) what in your opinion is the best place for text floating around the world?
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13:36 nrzkt2 but est31 irrlicht 1.9 is better than 1.8, i use irrlicht 1.9 from april 2014 and it works better than irrlicht 1.8...
13:36 RealBadAngel ive stated my pros, now your turn
13:36 nrzkt2 one of their performance improvemnet in 1.9 !! is to use function with references instead of copy...
13:37 RealBadAngel till now you just said no, because no
13:37 RealBadAngel that not a valid reason imho
13:38 est31 nrzkt2, we release packages for multiple linux distros, thats how most of the "normal" users come from. with "normal" I mean those who use minetest directly not one of its ripoffs (their count is highest).
13:38 est31 nrzkt2, and the linux distros dont have 1.9 packaged
13:38 est31 bc there is no official release
13:39 nrzkt2 est31, i know
13:39 nrzkt2 i only give your my feeling about 1.9 :p
13:43 RealBadAngel est31, so?
13:45 Fixer for people who asking what it should fix: https://cloud.githubusercontent.co​m/assets/16494741/13029821/5b9e831​a-d29f-11e5-8953-fb81bcf8f6ce.png and https://i.imgur.com/RH4AiLP.png
13:46 Fixer also flowing water opacity fix
13:46 RealBadAngel and halo going opaque...
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13:47 est31 Fixer, whats the bug in the second image?
13:47 Fixer est31, correct one is this https://i.imgur.com/vYsSnSr.png
13:47 Fixer est31, windows going from transperent to opaque white
13:47 est31 ah
13:48 est31 RealBadAngel, so you basically work around a bug in irrlicht?
13:48 Fixer est31, you can test it on Liberty Land, coordinates are in those pics
13:48 RealBadAngel est31, i told ya you will be suprised what it fixes ;)
13:49 RealBadAngel est31, basically yes. i did two things at a time. achieved my goal and fixed long standing issues at the same time
13:49 est31 RealBadAngel, congrats for finding the bug
13:49 est31 the reason for it*
13:50 RealBadAngel that was also an open issue about nametags dissapearing behind water
13:50 RealBadAngel fixed too
13:50 RealBadAngel so, good deal or not? :)
13:51 est31 RealBadAngel, if it indeed fixes the bugs, then its really good
13:51 est31 still, HUD is a bad place for it
13:51 est31 RealBadAngel, where does Hud::drawNametags get called?
13:51 RealBadAngel drawscene
13:51 est31 RealBadAngel, also, can you update the PR description on github with the issues the PR fixes? Then people know in e.g. 6 months what the PR is about
13:52 RealBadAngel sure, i just uploaded it
13:52 RealBadAngel then  got involved in discussion
13:52 est31 drawscene... cant find it in the PR's diff
13:52 RealBadAngel drawscene needs also a small cleanup, theres too much repetitve code
13:53 RealBadAngel ouch
13:54 nrzkt2 RealBadAngel, agree
13:55 RealBadAngel est31, added
13:56 RealBadAngel atm draw this draw that is called here and there
13:56 RealBadAngel there should be just one call to draw all the hud stuff
13:56 RealBadAngel folks adding there different 3D modes were just copying parts of code all around
13:57 RealBadAngel est31, still you havent answered: if not HUD then what?
13:58 est31 RealBadAngel, putting it into drawscene?
13:58 RealBadAngel drawscene is a collection of calls to elsewhere
13:58 est31 idk, there should be a better place for it than HUD
13:59 RealBadAngel that wasnt any good idea just a blind shot
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14:00 RealBadAngel but you are partially right. drawscene makes an order how the things are displayed
14:00 est31 RealBadAngel, for example do it like this:
14:00 RealBadAngel first the world, then all the overlays
14:00 est31 drawscene has a method, like draw_nametags
14:00 RealBadAngel wielded, hud
14:01 est31 and the method has a param which gets the list of Nametag objects
14:01 RealBadAngel following that you shall move there also waypoints
14:01 RealBadAngel infotext
14:02 RealBadAngel drawscene is not a method to draw specific things just to order when they are drawn
14:02 RealBadAngel and how
14:03 est31 its a file
14:03 est31 not a method
14:03 RealBadAngel display world, display overlays, done. or display world for left eye, right, overlays done.
14:04 RealBadAngel not to display a text god knows where
14:04 RealBadAngel im treating it as a method
14:04 RealBadAngel its primary role is to display things in correct order
14:05 RealBadAngel not to draw specific things
14:05 RealBadAngel it will command all the deffered rendering stuff, mrt and pp
14:06 RealBadAngel its simply not a right place for fancy unimportant stuff like nametags
14:07 est31 okay, I think I know now where it belongs
14:07 RealBadAngel go on
14:07 est31 camera.cpp
14:08 RealBadAngel what?
14:08 est31 its not the perfect place for it
14:08 est31 but much better than hud.cpp
14:08 est31 camera.cpp has already drawWieldedTool
14:09 est31 its the place where to put "small stuff" that doesnt deserve its own class
14:09 est31 ermm file
14:09 RealBadAngel and thats one of universe mysteries already why it has it ;)
14:09 est31 so thats where it should go
14:10 RealBadAngel because somebody put an engine in your doors, you will claim that fuel tank should also go there?
14:11 RealBadAngel sorry, but it looks like youre defending your "no" at all cost ;)
14:11 est31 RealBadAngel, sorry but it does not belong into hud.cpp
14:12 RealBadAngel thats your opinion, lets just wait for others, ok?
14:12 est31 RealBadAngel, your opinion is to have it in hud.cpp.
14:12 est31 lets wait for others
14:12 RealBadAngel yes
14:12 RealBadAngel and c55 one is also here
14:13 RealBadAngel i think im makin things consistent, see waypoint are HUD
14:14 RealBadAngel also, have you ever tried to make a screenshot of your structure on skyblock server?
14:15 est31 RealBadAngel, i dont care about that server
14:15 RealBadAngel propably not, because you would be pissed about all those nametags ruinin your nice shot ;)
14:15 RealBadAngel with them in HUD just press F2
14:15 est31 RealBadAngel, nametags have _nothing_ to do with HUD
14:15 est31 HUD means HEAD UP DISPLAY
14:15 RealBadAngel yes, EXACTLY
14:15 est31 man, I dont have any time to pointlessly fight with you
14:16 est31 do whatever you want
14:16 est31 -1 if it goes to hud.cpp
14:16 est31 waypoints dont belong there either
14:16 RealBadAngel and what nametag is? part of players body or what?
14:16 est31 but thats already old code
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14:30 RealBadAngel celeron55_,  could you also state your opionion in nametags PR?
14:31 RealBadAngel asking for it because it seems its gonna be hard discussion
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14:40 RealBadAngel btw, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2778
14:41 RealBadAngel this can propably be closed, its about removed code
14:42 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2687 also outdated
14:43 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2557 same
14:44 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2516 we do have nametags working, can be closed
14:46 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2450 we do have tonemapping
14:49 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2080 halo is here
14:49 est31 joined #minetest-dev
14:50 est31 RBA #2516 is about hover text
14:50 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2516 -- Ability to change hover text for objects and mobs
14:50 est31 not nametags
14:50 est31 hover text is the stuff you get if you hover on the item
14:51 est31 and about #2557 I dont think its outdated
14:51 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2557 -- Wielding items that use minetest.inventorycube causes an error
14:51 RealBadAngel object and mobs?
14:52 RealBadAngel those are nametags
14:52 RealBadAngel check mobg
14:52 RealBadAngel mobf
14:52 RealBadAngel this mod allows you to name your pets
14:53 RealBadAngel please read the issue
14:53 RealBadAngel somebody used "hover" propably wrong way
14:54 est31 lol
14:54 est31 you dont read it
14:54 est31 quoting the issue
14:54 est31 "it always displays "GenericCAO""
14:54 RealBadAngel " it always displays "GenericCAO" and armor/health status"
14:54 est31 thats the hovertext
14:54 RealBadAngel yes exactly
14:54 est31 _not_ the nametag
14:54 est31 the nametag is displayed always
14:54 RealBadAngel but if it has nametag you will see the nametag
14:55 est31 the hovertext is displayed only if you hover the thing
14:55 RealBadAngel not the debug info
14:55 est31 ermm what?
14:55 RealBadAngel generic cao text is only in debug mode
14:55 RealBadAngel in this pr they asked for a way to name an object
14:56 RealBadAngel nametags does it
14:56 est31 no
14:56 est31 nametags is a different system
14:56 est31 the issue is about a different thing
14:56 RealBadAngel i know
14:56 est31 the issue title
14:56 RealBadAngel ok, slightly different
14:56 est31 "Ability to change hover text"
14:56 est31 hover text
14:56 RealBadAngel infotext
14:57 RealBadAngel you know that you can set it, right?
14:57 est31 RealBadAngel, I dont change an issue so that I can close it
14:57 RealBadAngel thx to that you see name of dropped item for example
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14:58 RealBadAngel so if you want the spinning dirt to be named "cow: pregnant" here you go
14:59 kahrl on a semi-related note, is the automatic debug infotext actually useful to anyone?
14:59 kahrl if not, I would suggest to remove it
15:00 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/87291ea44a61614d5bd9efc0657926da3f867b5f
15:00 RealBadAngel that allowed to set infotexts
15:00 kahrl it makes minetest seem less polished IMHO when compiled in debug mode (which quite a number of people seem to do)
15:01 RealBadAngel est31, so either he meant nametag or infotext both are possible already
15:01 kahrl same with the default debug f5 mode, but changing that might be more controversial
15:02 RealBadAngel kahrl, i find that more annoying than useful, so i agree
15:03 est31 kahrl, release builds are not defaulting to f5 mode
15:03 est31 only debug builds
15:03 kahrl est31: I know
15:03 kahrl but lots of people use debug builds anyhow
15:03 RealBadAngel wonder what for? to slow down the game? :)
15:04 est31 because we dont release often enough I guess
15:04 est31 last release is a half year ago
15:04 kahrl http://irc.minetest.ru/minet​est-dev/2016-02-15#i_4534171
15:04 RealBadAngel we do have shitload of new code, lotsa fixes
15:05 est31 yea seen it
15:05 RealBadAngel new release would be nice. and is expected
15:05 est31 if somebody wants to be release manager, fine with me as well
15:05 est31 any day
15:05 est31 just I wont be the release manager :)
15:08 RealBadAngel ha!
15:08 RealBadAngel found one issue that my pr fixes :)
15:09 RealBadAngel #1404
15:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1404 -- water opacity bug with irrlicht 1.8.x
15:09 RealBadAngel look at the date :)
15:09 RealBadAngel and in this one you have a list of related ones :)
15:09 est31 they are mostly dupes
15:10 RealBadAngel propaby yeah
15:10 kahrl now it makes sense why it would depend on irrlicht version :)
15:11 Fixer https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/3192173​/4872765/0783bbde-61f2-11e4-88b8-0920c4edeabb.png this water bug is of different nature
15:11 est31 RealBadAngel, you were right about #2516 sorry about that
15:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2516 -- Ability to change hover text for objects and mobs
15:11 est31 I have mixed it with some other change
15:11 est31 by blockmen
15:11 kahrl Fixer: yep
15:12 kahrl Fixer: that's missing transparency sorting
15:12 RealBadAngel est31, i may be known of being full mouth, but lately i rather try to code first then talk ;)
15:13 RealBadAngel also when im not sure about something i would rather shut up
15:19 est31 RealBadAngel, sorry for not reviewing every single commit thoroughly.
15:20 est31 RealBadAngel, when you referenced the commit I have seen that I was wrong
15:20 est31 hrmm I seem to have terrible mesh gen lag
15:20 est31 collisions already working and selection boxes
15:20 est31 but not showing up in world
15:20 est31 classical meshgen problem
15:20 RealBadAngel est31, do you have latest commit in?
15:21 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/7ea40e45b1bf893aa693c179cbe8612ede86faee
15:21 RealBadAngel that speeds up shaders one
15:23 Fixer est31, lag when placing/digging blocks? you should update to latest git
15:24 est31 Fixer, RealBadAngel yup I have that one
15:24 est31 lemme see whether I can reproduce it in minimal development test
15:25 RealBadAngel ok
15:25 Fixer lol
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15:25 Fixer crap
15:25 RealBadAngel est31, im balancing now between making both cases fast
15:25 RealBadAngel i believe that last one shall be good enough
15:25 darkrose left #minetest-dev
15:27 Fixer PR 3695 fixed lag problem for me, but I tested before some changes to it
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15:28 est31 hrmmm it really is reproducible
15:29 RealBadAngel est31, first of all, shaders or non shaders?
15:29 est31 mesh lag of multiple seconds
15:29 est31 I have shaders
15:29 RealBadAngel seconds??
15:29 est31 yes, when I dig fence i can walk into it
15:30 est31 and when I go to unloaded area I can walk around in nothing
15:30 est31 RealBadAngel, tone mapping disabled, bumpmapping enabled, parralax enabled, waving stuff disabled
15:31 Fixer o.O
15:31 Fixer i will compile too
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15:35 est31 I'm on singleplayer with technic mod
15:35 est31 but server lag should not influence meshgen
15:35 est31 if collision stuff works the mapblock is on the client already
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15:37 kilbith for the next release manager, paramat could take this role as he actively supervises 2 repos and ensures a good tracking for issues
15:37 est31 he is comfortable with mtgame yeah
15:38 RealBadAngel est31, bump and relief are the only cases to enable tangent space
15:38 est31 and he doesnt reject attempts from the release manager to fix bugs in mtgame
15:38 RealBadAngel please do check if you have lags without those 2 options enabled
15:39 RealBadAngel theres one costly thing run recalculate normals (and tangents and binormals)
15:39 RealBadAngel but that we had before for all the cases
15:39 est31 as long as he doesnt start "adjusting" default values in minetest to "reduce processing" because the "release has to be fast", I'm okay with paramat.
15:40 RealBadAngel so maybe is that all other cases have speeded up you call the other slow
15:40 kilbith nobody is perfect
15:41 est31 RealBadAngel, no speed up even with shaders disabled
15:41 RealBadAngel if this method will turn up too slow i will write my own vector calculations
15:41 est31 I'll restart
15:41 est31 some settings can be static
15:42 est31 nope nothing after restart either
15:42 RealBadAngel i will try to profile it
15:42 RealBadAngel it shall be faster no matter what
15:43 RealBadAngel only thing come to my mind are external calls to irr
15:44 RealBadAngel Fixer, have you tried the current master?
15:44 RealBadAngel kahrl asked for some changes before PR went into master
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15:48 RealBadAngel est31, is gameplay smooth or it is stuttering for you?
15:50 est31 as in?
15:50 RealBadAngel it may be related, ive also experiencing it lately for a short period of time then it was mysteriously gone
15:50 RealBadAngel choking movement for example
15:50 RealBadAngel as higher peakk
15:51 RealBadAngel that maybe in fact related to meshgen at all, some folks are reporting it for long time already
15:51 Fixer RealBadAngel, compilation near 100%
15:51 RealBadAngel but thats not a new problem
15:51 RealBadAngel it just seems to be popping up randomly
15:51 est31 I dont really have stuttering gameplay
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15:52 RealBadAngel cpu?
15:52 est31 idk
15:52 Fixer est31, i was proposing to generate meshes more slowly per rendered frame, you said there is a queue, but it needs improvement, right?
15:52 RealBadAngel you have rather fast one?
15:52 est31 RealBadAngel, sorta yes
15:52 RealBadAngel it may be more visible on slower boxes
15:52 RealBadAngel so game jams
15:53 RealBadAngel i will examine whole meshgen for time spent there
15:53 est31 RealBadAngel, I see the CPU go up during meshgen
15:53 RealBadAngel it cant be like that im making it faster and it chokes
15:53 RealBadAngel theres something real wrong in here
15:55 Fixer RealBadAngel, it is slow again, testing more
15:57 RealBadAngel kahrl insisted on adding reserve
15:57 Fixer RealBadAngel, hold on
15:57 kahrl RealBadAngel: no, that wasn't me :P
15:57 RealBadAngel oops?
15:57 Fixer RealBadAngel, wait, maybe i'm wrong let me look more
15:57 RealBadAngel somebody did :) sorry kahrl :)
15:58 kahrl but reserve() shouldn't cause meshgen slowdown anyway
15:58 RealBadAngel just trying to find a difference
15:58 RealBadAngel est31 says its common for shaders/non shaders, so recalculating normals is not the reason
15:59 Fixer est31, normals enabled or disabled in bumpmap?
15:59 RealBadAngel it will be something equally obvious as textnode for water transparency i bet
16:00 Fixer est31, post your config
16:00 Fixer RealBadAngel, in singleplayer i don't have any problems
16:00 RealBadAngel it may be broken drawtype or something like that
16:00 Fixer RealBadAngel, let me recheck Just Test multiplayer, maybe that was server lag
16:01 est31 Fixer, I can reproduce with shaders disabled
16:01 Fixer est31, no problems with shaders disabled
16:01 RealBadAngel lol
16:01 Fixer est31, are you sure you are at minetest-0.4.13-7ea40e4-win64 ?
16:01 est31 Fixer, I have no win :)
16:01 est31 otherwise probably yes
16:01 Fixer 7ea40e4
16:01 Fixer probably?
16:01 est31 latest master commit
16:02 Fixer i have no problems with shaders disabled
16:02 Fixer hmhm
16:02 RealBadAngel guys, have to go now, cooking lunch, be back in an hour (but will be reading from time to time)
16:02 est31 happy eating!
16:03 Fixer est31, post your config
16:06 RealBadAngel est31, try to disable mapblock_mesh.cpp line 1109 - all the extra drawtypes, see if it changes anything
16:07 RealBadAngel you shall have there only solid nodes
16:07 est31 RealBadAngel, I'm bisecting now
16:08 Fixer lol, when place some block my draw speed makes spike from 0.01 to 0.03 and back to 0.01
16:08 Fixer or even to 0.04
16:10 Fixer est31, still no regression for me, only usual meshgen stutter :(
16:11 Fixer smooth curve at 0.01 s and big bump after placing just 1 block
16:22 Fixer https://i.imgur.com/erdbo5l.gif gif illustration of stutter when placing one block
16:25 Fixer in ultra quite multiplayer environment
16:32 est31 okay RealBadAngel the faulty commit seems to be really the last one
16:33 est31 7ea40e45b1bf893aa6 has introduced the slowness
16:35 RealBadAngel est31, kinda impossible :(
16:35 RealBadAngel it replaced way slower method to get tangent space vertices
16:36 RealBadAngel without shaders even you have exact same method even as used way before, the one thx to which paramat has gained back 20% fps
16:37 RealBadAngel there has to be some stupid bug that is causing unexpected slowdowns
16:38 RealBadAngel i need to force that stuttering to pop up once for all to eliminate it
16:39 RealBadAngel theres no logical explanation why same methods are once faster for some, slower for others
16:40 RealBadAngel and i afraid its deeply burried there, because the meshgen lag is not a new issue, it pops up from time to time
16:43 RealBadAngel and i wont be suprised if it will be something related to minimap and threads
16:45 est31 hah
16:45 est31 you still would like it at 100% wont you
16:45 est31 man I miss these old discussions
16:45 est31 "on intel its only 70%"
16:45 RealBadAngel just a guess ;)
16:46 RealBadAngel but i admit it needs optimization
16:46 RealBadAngel lets try to disable it and see how it affects meshgen lag, ok?
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16:48 Fixer disable what?
16:49 RealBadAngel minimap
16:49 Fixer ah, no meshgen lag for me, it was fixed, i was talking about stutter, it has different nature
16:49 RealBadAngel it seems to be connected
16:49 RealBadAngel something is stopping meshgen
16:50 RealBadAngel i can see it on minimap actually, new blocks are appearing there at very slow ratio
16:50 RealBadAngel so, meshgen is slow
16:50 Fixer RealBadAngel, sometimes when i walk in singleplayer it seems 3-4-5 meshes generated, which is fine, but sometimes HUUUGE 50 meshes thing popups %)
16:50 Fixer thing=spike
16:51 RealBadAngel i can see that too
16:51 RealBadAngel they come in packets
16:51 Fixer yes
16:51 Fixer my suggestion was to limit number of meshes generated per rendered frame
16:51 RealBadAngel theyre not prepared in main thread, neither per frame
16:51 Fixer so instead of 50 one you will get 2-2-2-2 over big period
16:52 Fixer just spread them out somehow
16:52 RealBadAngel once mesh is ready, updating it is fast
16:52 RealBadAngel something is holding them from being rdy
16:54 est31 RealBadAngel, client.cpp line 177
16:54 est31 ScopeProfiler sp(g_profiler, "Client: Mesh making");
16:54 est31 change that to
16:54 est31 ScopeProfiler sp(g_profiler, "Client: Mesh making", SPT_GRAPH_ADD);
16:54 est31 then press f5 to see the graphs
16:54 RealBadAngel est31, thats not minimap slowing it
16:54 RealBadAngel just checked
16:57 RealBadAngel est31, what are numbers there?
16:58 RealBadAngel 0.6 - 2.3
16:59 est31 one number is the average
17:00 est31 the other is I think the "last" one
17:00 est31 idk
17:00 est31 doesnt really use that subsystem
17:00 RealBadAngel they seem to be the same for tangent/regular vertices
17:00 est31 but for before your patch I notice the value going up really high
17:00 RealBadAngel and the lag is here in both cases
17:01 RealBadAngel disabling now special drawtypes
17:02 RealBadAngel the value is now 0.022
17:02 RealBadAngel no lags at all
17:02 est31 yeah
17:02 est31 thats fine
17:02 est31 I get values up to 4
17:03 RealBadAngel lemme bring the minimap back in
17:04 RealBadAngel 0.040
17:05 RealBadAngel so, its special drawtypes that slowing it so much
17:06 RealBadAngel going to disable drawtypes one by one now
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17:11 Fixer another classic example of stutters (not related to est31 thing probably): https://imgur.com/8Zz4woj (in gifv)
17:11 RealBadAngel btw, can see that all the time:
17:11 RealBadAngel 2016-02-15 18:09:36: WARNING[Main]: Map::getNodeMetadata(): Block not found
17:11 RealBadAngel 2016-02-15 18:09:46: WARNING[Main]: Map::getNodeMetadata(): Block not found
17:11 RealBadAngel 2016-02-15 18:10:00: WARNING[Main]: Map::getNodeMetadata(): Block not found
17:12 Fixer RealBadAngel, seen those warnings too
17:12 Fixer have no idea why
17:12 Fixer RealBadAngel, week ago or more
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17:17 RealBadAngel ok we have a winner i think
17:17 RealBadAngel those are leaves
17:18 est31 leaves?
17:18 est31 that can be it
17:20 RealBadAngel est31, please change leaves style to simple
17:20 RealBadAngel and see if lag is still here
17:20 RealBadAngel that will change drawtype to glasslike
17:21 est31 yup that's it
17:22 est31 with simple leaves the meshgen lag is gone
17:22 RealBadAngel now lets find out whats wrong with allfaces
17:26 RealBadAngel cant see anything wrong there
17:26 RealBadAngel but, we had issues with leaves before didnt we?
17:26 RealBadAngel premesh buffers and indices
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17:28 est31 RealBadAngel, created bug #3714 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3714
17:28 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3714 -- Meshgen slowdown regression with fancy leaves
17:29 RealBadAngel ok
17:29 RealBadAngel but we dont know yet if allfaces is the reason itself
17:30 RealBadAngel im checking now premesh buffers
17:30 Krock joined #minetest-dev
17:34 RealBadAngel ok, theres something interesting in here
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17:35 RealBadAngel looks like from time to time meshgen loops itself
17:35 RealBadAngel est31, find first meshcollector append
17:35 RealBadAngel at the end of mapblock_mesh.cpp
17:36 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/b​lob/master/src/mapblock_mesh.cpp#L1411
17:36 RealBadAngel and put dstream<<pp.indices.size() + numIndices<<std::endl;
17:36 RealBadAngel just before if
17:37 RealBadAngel you will see number growing up to several k, then from time to time serie of something close to 65k
17:38 est31 which if?
17:38 RealBadAngel the link
17:38 Obani kaadmy, you put Pixture under © ?...
17:39 RealBadAngel some blocks gets enourmous number of indices comparing to others
17:41 est31 yeah rba it goes pretty high
17:41 est31 I have to go, keen on hearing more on that bug
17:41 est31 bye!
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17:54 kaadmy Obani: i don't really care if it is :)
17:54 kaadmy i could remove that
17:57 Obani kaadmy, the problem is not for you, it's for the others
17:58 Obani Also this can seem kinda cheap to put under copyright your work as everybody is using free software licenses
17:58 sofar are we talking about https://github.com/kaadmy/pixture ?
17:59 sofar Obani: ?
17:59 Obani yes
18:00 sofar what's the problem? it's perfectly OK to have OSS licenses AND a copyright statement
18:00 sofar that's completely normal
18:00 Obani It's not a legal problem
18:00 Obani It's just ethical :)
18:00 sofar no, it's ENTIRELY ethical to put copyright on top
18:00 Obani NO IT'S NOT
18:00 sofar yes it is
18:01 Obani Copyright is the error of the society
18:01 sofar the GPL even RECOMMENDS putting it there
18:01 sofar Copyright is the ONLY way to enforce the GPL
18:01 Obani Copyright is proprietary license
18:01 sofar NO
18:01 sofar that's completely wrong
18:01 Obani So what ?
18:01 Hijiri copyright isn't proprietary license
18:02 Obani tudutudutududududuuuu
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18:02 Obani Really ?
18:02 sofar Copyright does not mean that something is proprietary
18:02 Hijiri if you use FSF definition of proprietary
18:02 Hijiri and OSS definition for that matter
18:02 sofar Copyright means that you assert distribution control. If you pair it with an open license, you retain the rights to enforce that distribution control
18:02 Hijiri Copyright is automatic in most countries anyway also
18:03 Hijiri if you don't put a copyright statement you are implicitly licensing it under a very restrictive license
18:03 sofar Hijiri: that's also not true
18:03 Hijiri you have to explicitly license it more nicely
18:03 sofar omitting a copyright statement does not imply restrictive licensing, either
18:03 Hijiri ok, sorry
18:03 Hijiri I mean if you don't license it explicitly
18:04 sofar Obani: it's also perfectly normal to have contributors *add* copyright lines when they contribute large pieces
18:04 sofar so sometimes in OSS projects you see several (C) lines underneath eachother
18:04 Obani But are we really talking about the © ?
18:04 sofar yes, the (C)
18:05 Obani 0.o
18:05 Obani My life is a joke
18:05 sofar lol no, let's not go that far :)
18:05 sofar remember, this is important, the GPL is enforcable through copyright laws
18:05 sofar and so are other licenses (MIT etc)
18:06 Obani well, MIT is quite a permissive license :p
18:06 sofar so stating that you are the author, and claiming copyright, is a way to help enforcing the license
18:06 sofar it still requires the authorship to be retained
18:07 sofar if someone removes it, you can use copyright to prevent them from doing so if they distribute it
18:09 Obani So © is just an "additionnal" license ?
18:11 sofar it actually is NO license
18:11 sofar it is just a claim of authorship
18:11 sofar omitting it does not mean you are not the author
18:12 sofar (it's just a bit harder to prove, legally)
18:12 sofar in the USA, copyright is implied
18:12 sofar but claiming it is useful
18:12 Fixer please move into #minetest
18:12 sofar just like omitting a license statement doesn't help you
18:15 Obani sorry Fixer, I think the conversation is over :)
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18:31 RealBadAngel that is really annoying
18:32 RealBadAngel leaves when drawn as glasslike are fast, so i replaced ALLFACES code with glasslike code
18:32 RealBadAngel and theyre slow as were before lol
18:36 RealBadAngel hmmm
18:38 RealBadAngel no, actually its the same
18:39 RealBadAngel allfaces has simply more visible faces -> so more vertices
18:39 RealBadAngel back to buffers then
18:40 Fixer .__.
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19:05 kaadmy Obani: the main reason i put that there was to prevent people from copying Pixture and distributing it without any credit
19:05 kaadmy mainly on the Google play store
19:16 Obani kaadmy, well, I think a GPLv3 would be enough
19:16 Obani But I admit, with that definition of ©, that it is a simpler way to tell it, and to make it understand
19:16 Obani able
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19:59 ShadowNinja #3347 look good?
19:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3347 -- Fix jumping at node edge by ShadowNinja
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