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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-02-02

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03:28 Fritigern Earlier today Fixer shared this pic in #minetest: https://i.imgur.com/S3Toxfh.jpg and I think I know what is causing this. I believe that it's the algorithm that creates the rivers. It continues to carve rivers when it hits a lake or ocean, leading to the formation of these walls.
03:30 Fritigern Oh, forgot to mention, it's the Valleys MG
03:34 Fritigern In this pic you can easily trace the river into the ocean: http://imgur.com/hhKANjq
03:34 Fritigern This one is a little harder, but the river follows the coast for a bit : http://imgur.com/KDwObXh
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05:38 paramat Fritigern that will be fixed soon see #3635
05:38 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3635 -- Mgvalleys: fix riverbeds below sea level by duane-r
05:40 paramat hmmmm can i merge #3630 ? it's fairly simple
05:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3630 -- Mgv5/v7/flat/fractal: Move tunnel noise calculation into generateCaves by paramat
05:41 hmmmm maybe rename bool open to something else
05:41 hmmmm that shadows the function open()
05:42 hmmmm instead of having a comment explaining what it is, why not just make the variable descriptive in the first place?
05:42 hmmmm column_is_open
05:45 paramat ok
05:47 paramat i'll do that now
06:07 paramat hmmmm, done. otherwise good?
06:07 Fritigern paramat: Aw... So I did not make some great discovery? Not solved an enigma that has plagued the devs (well, you)?
06:09 paramat thanks anyway
06:10 hmmmm paramat, yeah, looks good
06:11 paramat thanks
06:11 paramat i'll merge it with the mgvalleys fix
06:13 hmmmm huh
06:13 hmmmm how did duane determine that rangelim -> MYMIN(MYMAX(x, y), z)) is the problem?
06:13 hmmmm ohhhh...
06:13 hmmmm you didn't swap the parameters too
06:14 hmmmm rangelim is rangelim(value, minimum, maximum), whereas MYMIN(MYMAX(... is MYMIN(MYMAX(value, maximum), minimum)
06:18 paramat ok i'll delay merging that
06:18 hmmmm it's not a really big deal, I just wanted to point that out
06:19 hmmmm rangelim is potentially more efficient than MYMIN(MYMAX()) but this might not be the case if the compiler optimizer is smart enough
06:25 hmmmm hmmm okay, I actually checked it out and the answer seems to be that, with -O2 on gcc 4.9.2, MYMIN(MYMAX()) beats rangelim() by one instruction.
06:31 paramat interesting. rangelim is nicer code though. so anyway i'll go ahead and merge it for now
06:31 hmmmm check this website out http://gcc.godbolt.org/
06:32 hmmmm it's actually pretty convenient for doing comparisons like this
06:32 hmmmm http://fpaste.org/317381/14543947/
06:33 hmmmm you still need to know how to trick the compiler into optimizing the code you want but not removing it
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06:34 paramat now merging
06:44 paramat merged
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07:51 Obani https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1908
07:51 Obani https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/817
07:52 Obani https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1843
07:53 Obani https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2355
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07:56 Obani https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3208
07:57 Obani https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2738
07:59 Calinou this one is an one-liner, should be merged: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1908
07:59 Calinou :p
07:59 Obani https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3309
08:00 Calinou maybe with a less drastic value though
08:00 Calinou 60 should be fine
08:00 Obani It's your PR, do it :p
08:01 Obani I'm posting all this for you don't forget it :p
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08:17 red-001 game#602 game#667 game#816
08:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/602 -- Add access privilege that allows players to bypass protection. by red-001
08:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/667 -- Add tnt API. by red-001
08:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/816 -- Make TNT faster by using `VoxelManip()` for removing nodes. by red-001
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11:21 * sofar now in .nl
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15:57 RealBadAngel paramat, http://i.imgur.com/maEUjob.png
15:57 RealBadAngel i think you have messed something with biome blending
16:28 Fixer RealBadAngel, valleys? there were some changes to make it more like in lua version
16:29 RealBadAngel its valleys, yeah
16:29 RealBadAngel but that piece looks like green vomit spreaded around rather than blending
16:29 Fixer lol
16:30 RealBadAngel not to mention a few jungle trees grown on it ;)
16:32 Fixer i've noticed that :}
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16:55 red-001 nodeupdate() seems to be some sort of undocumented function
16:55 red-001 what does it do?
16:59 Calinou red-001, it forces a node update around it
16:59 Calinou eg. for liquid flowing
17:00 red-001 It should be documented
17:00 red-001 doesn't "minetest.remove_node" already update nodes?
17:00 RealBadAngel falling.lua line 187
17:01 RealBadAngel its meant for falling nodes like sand
17:01 red-001 should get added to the wiki
17:01 RealBadAngel i dont think so
17:02 RealBadAngel its internal stuff rather
17:02 red-001 minetest game uses it
17:02 red-001 You can't claim your making an engine and do that
17:03 red-001 does remove_node also update nodes?
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17:04 RealBadAngel this is ONLY for falling nodes
17:04 RealBadAngel i cant see any reason why anybody would like to use it externally
17:04 red-001 to update a falling node?
17:05 red-001 fire in minetest game uses it
17:05 RealBadAngel for what the heck??
17:05 red-001 idk
17:05 RealBadAngel if core.get_item_group(n.name, "falling_node") ~= 0 then
17:06 RealBadAngel it cannot work with anything else but falling stuff
17:06 red-001 default is minetest game too
17:06 red-001 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_gam​e/blob/1d8def5c06346aad7f400156be95f50b6​7ceee48/mods/default/functions.lua#L304
17:07 red-001 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_​game/blob/1d8def5c06346aad7f400156be9​5f50b67ceee48/mods/fire/init.lua#L239
17:07 RealBadAngel ah i see
17:07 RealBadAngel somebody put there check for attached nodes
17:08 RealBadAngel so if you remove stone for example, torch will fall
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17:24 RealBadAngel red-001, hmm it looks like it should be documented
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18:34 Fixer !tell paramat never seen anything like that -> https://i.imgur.com/VSrqawQ.png
18:34 ShadowBot Fixer: Error: Spurious ">".  You may want to quote your arguments with double quotes in order to prevent extra brackets from being evaluated as nested commands.
18:35 Fixer !tell paramat never seen anything like that: https://i.imgur.com/VSrqawQ.png
18:35 ShadowBot Fixer: O.K.
18:35 kaadmy lol
18:35 Obani Fixer, 0.o
18:36 Obani weird xD
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19:09 paramat RBA's biome blend screenshot is mgv6, blend distance is the same as original mgv6, that effect happens occasionally when biome noise hovers on a threshold, nothing new
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19:13 paramat looks like deco schematic doesn't check for air before placing, and we only now notice because we have 2 tree types in a biome
19:14 paramat might work on that
19:21 RealBadAngel paramat, hmm not sure if it was v6 or valleys anymore
19:22 RealBadAngel anyway it doesnt look nice, dont you agree?
19:22 paramat i agree, but we can't change mgv6. all other mapgens have my new 'blobby' blend
19:24 RealBadAngel cant? why?
19:25 est31 nrzkt, somehow the android build bot seems to do weird things
19:26 est31 e.g. fail builds
19:29 paramat the character of mgv6 has to be preserved (not my decision). this dither can be made rarer but at the cost of blend distance being too small
19:29 paramat it will always happen though
19:29 RealBadAngel please dont mess "character" with bugs
19:30 paramat not a bug
19:30 nrzkt est31 do you got link ?
19:30 RealBadAngel if something looks like shit it deserves "bug" label
19:30 est31 nrzkt, https://jenkins.unix-experience.fr/job/m​inetest-Android-OfficialRepository/2123/
19:30 est31 (for example)
19:31 paramat mgv6 has always done this, it's an unavoidable side effect of the blend method
19:31 RealBadAngel and i dont care if its design, character or whatever
19:31 RealBadAngel then fix the method
19:31 paramat i'm not opposed to changing it, i don't think i will be allowed :]
19:31 RealBadAngel then force fixing it
19:31 RealBadAngel youre mapgen guy
19:32 paramat ask hmmmm
19:32 paramat .. if it's allowed
19:32 RealBadAngel we dont ask for bugs being allowed to fix, just fix them
19:32 paramat you haven't noticed this in 4 years?
19:33 hmmmm ??
19:33 hmmmm what's this bug
19:33 RealBadAngel wanted me for example to not fix wielded item glitch because it was for so long here? and propably folks got used to it? ;)
19:34 hmmmm and v6 output can't be changed anymore to preserve reverse compatibility with everybody's v6 maps
19:34 hmmmm if you change v6 output you'll get cut-off map features
19:34 est31 yeah, I think the change is only minimal
19:34 paramat http://i.imgur.com/maEUjob.png RBA has just noticed this
19:34 RealBadAngel better that, than faulty newly generated ones
19:34 est31 and basically nobody used the feature before
19:35 hmmmm what is the problem in that screenshot
19:35 hmmmm this is the expected output
19:35 est31 ahh thats different
19:35 paramat see logs for our conversation
19:35 est31 I've thought it was still the schematic placing thing
19:35 RealBadAngel youre trying to say thats by design?
19:35 paramat yes c55's design
19:36 est31 tbh I dont see anything wrong with it either
19:36 RealBadAngel will i dare to call that design a shit?
19:36 hmmmm what's in that screenshot?  i think it looks bad, but it should be expected given the method used to generate it
19:36 RealBadAngel yeah i think i can do that
19:36 RealBadAngel it looks like shit
19:36 hmmmm and?
19:36 hmmmm so you want to change it and break compatibility?
19:37 paramat all of minetest is 'shit'
19:37 RealBadAngel i wont change it, im asking both of you to fix it
19:37 hmmmm closed as not a bug
19:37 est31 ^
19:37 RealBadAngel because it simply looks like shit
19:38 RealBadAngel and nobody when starting new game with that mapgen will care about story behind it
19:38 RealBadAngel neither will care bout "compability"
19:39 hmmmm that's the story of all your changes RBA
19:39 hmmmm you don't value compatibility.  some others do
19:39 RealBadAngel to some degree i do
19:40 paramat RBA your latest post processing screenshots have potential but have too much DOF, human eyes have a very deep DOF especially at mid to large distance, these make things look miniature. anyway DOF is unusable in-game because it assumes the player only looks at the centre of the screen. players need to look at all parts of the screen, any blur will then stress the eyes
19:41 hmmmm it has to be way more subtle
19:41 RealBadAngel paramat, you havent played with my DoF implementation, just saw a few screenshots. so what really can you tell about it? :)
19:41 hmmmm i agree
19:41 hmmmm RBA, your graphical effects are nice, but you really crank them up way too much
19:41 hmmmm for the bumpmapping you might as well have spikes sticking out of the walls
19:42 hmmmm for the DOF you might as well give the user myopia
19:42 RealBadAngel paramat, and DoF is usable in almost all nowadays games, just because you are "ancient" it doesnt mean we cannot have it
19:42 Fixer DOF effect needs to be realistic
19:42 hmmmm for the minimap you might as well downgrade the end user to an Athlon 64 3500+
19:42 paramat if others use it that's their error
19:42 RealBadAngel i agree it should be finetuned, ofc
19:42 paramat mainstream != good
19:43 RealBadAngel when it will be in fully working state (i mean whole PP)  folks will be able to test it widely
19:43 RealBadAngel then we can set it up properly
19:43 Fixer if a human with +1D vision looks at node from 1 meter away, background will be sharp, at 50cm slightly, and much bigger when 20-10cm...
19:43 RealBadAngel all the math needed is here, just need proper settings
19:43 paramat DOF is okay for screenshots though, to focus attention
19:44 hmmmm not only will realistic DOF look nicer, it'll offer better performance too
19:44 hmmmm less pixels needed for sampling
19:44 paramat but effects for screenshots only are a terasology thing
19:44 est31 where are the screenshots everybody is talking about
19:44 RealBadAngel hmmm, it doesnt work that way...
19:45 paramat http://i.imgur.com/ddaR89K.png http://i.imgur.com/2ZihxAn.png
19:45 RealBadAngel you prepare blurred scene, have focused, and depth map
19:45 RealBadAngel and you pick up to show those in focus (sharp) or out of focus (blurred)
19:45 hmmmm in order to blur you need to sample pixels surrounding the currently shaded pixel
19:45 RealBadAngel theres no sampling at all
19:45 paramat my eyes hurt if i don't look at screen centre
19:45 RealBadAngel no
19:46 hmmmm the bigger the blur effect, the larger the blur radius
19:46 hmmmm the larger the blur radius, the more pixels need to be sampled
19:46 RealBadAngel we prepare whole screen blurred
19:46 hmmmm am I wrong..?
19:46 est31 it can be used with oculus VR or something
19:46 RealBadAngel its faster
19:46 est31 there you know the eye pos
19:46 paramat yeah ok with eye-tracking
19:46 est31 and can do the blur based on where you look at
19:46 hmmmm yes, but I'm saying the strength of the blur has a direct impact on performance
19:46 RealBadAngel hmmm, read that piece, it will explain you the method better
19:46 hmmmm this is how the gaussian blur effect works...
19:46 paramat otherwise unusable in-game
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19:47 RealBadAngel http://pastebin.com/XmMNPuk9
19:48 RealBadAngel Tex1 sampler is depth map for the scene, Tex0 is non blurred (original), Render is gausian blurred one
19:49 RealBadAngel hmmm, there are tricks to process whole screen real fast
19:49 hmmmm yes, but you already gaussian blurred the screen
19:49 RealBadAngel yup
19:50 RealBadAngel thats what we do to make things faster
19:50 hmmmm I know the running average trick, but you can't do that with a shader
19:50 exio4 RealBadAngel: do you have a screenshot that'd show bumpmapping + DOF + all the stuff?
19:50 hmmmm since it works on one pixel at a time
19:50 RealBadAngel split kernel into V and H passes and work on lowered resolution
19:50 RealBadAngel this way we have blurred scene in almost no time
19:50 exio4 paramat: "screenshoot mode" setting ? :P
19:51 hmmmm how can you split the shader into working on passes for entire scripts at once?
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19:51 RealBadAngel hmmm, hold on
19:51 paramat i would say effects for screenshots only have no place in MT
19:52 RealBadAngel hmmmm, http://pastebin.com/aCiTA0XY
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19:52 hmmmm effect chains?
19:52 RealBadAngel hmmmm, yup
19:53 paramat http://i.imgur.com/m6ZuJBS.png cel shading looks good with toony textures
19:53 hmmmm this is an Irrrenderer thing?
19:53 RealBadAngel part of it, irrPP (PostProcessing)
19:53 RealBadAngel it works on quads
19:53 hmmmm video::EPE_BLUR_V_HIGH
19:53 RealBadAngel quad is here a screen
19:53 hmmmm did you even write the shader for DOF or is that included?
19:54 RealBadAngel some shaders were here, some i wrote
19:54 hmmmm i mean the shader for gaussian blur
19:54 hmmmm not dof
19:54 RealBadAngel it was included
19:55 RealBadAngel but thats basic math, splitting gausian kernel into V and H parts to speed up the process
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19:55 hmmmm yes i know that, i've done that before
19:55 RealBadAngel also theres a neat trick used
19:55 hmmmm it's just that i wasn't aware you were able to chain entire strips of pixels together into a single operation
19:55 hmmmm in a pixel shader
19:56 RealBadAngel thats whole point of post processing
19:56 Obani paramat, I don't think those effects are "screenshots" effects, even if they intend to make them prettier
19:56 RealBadAngel the whole chain you can see here is blazing fast
19:57 hmmmm hopefully
19:57 RealBadAngel because most of the work is done by GPU
19:57 RealBadAngel not the cpu
19:57 RealBadAngel with everything enabled im still getting 60fps usually
19:58 RealBadAngel only thing to slow it down are damn leaves
19:58 RealBadAngel but that we can make faster by enabling VBO finally
19:58 Fixer_ and fixing stutter /me runs
19:59 paramat Obani i mean DOF is only usable for screenshots
20:00 Obani paramat, I don't think so
20:00 RealBadAngel paramat, youre totally wrong
20:00 RealBadAngel you have to play with it to understand
20:00 paramat what if you want to look at a part of the screen that is blurred? eye strain, trying to focus but not being able to
20:01 RealBadAngel it gives immerse 3d effect to the world
20:01 paramat yes, if looking at screen centre
20:01 RealBadAngel no
20:01 RealBadAngel you have to play with it to understand
20:02 paramat the player needs to be able to look at every part of the screen and see it clearly, this is obvious without playing with it
20:02 RealBadAngel but anyway, i think i may have the ultimate shader for you
20:03 RealBadAngel lemme prepare a screenshot
20:03 paramat ASCII?
20:03 Fixer_ paramat, except when you looking at something very closely
20:03 paramat no, why assume the player's vision is looking at a certain part of the screen?
20:04 paramat without eye-tracking it's unusable
20:05 paramat but yes it's good for screenshots to focus attention on a certain distance
20:06 RealBadAngel paramat, here you go http://i.imgur.com/dToCnLw.png :)
20:06 paramat but terasology is a screenshot game, it promises much but can't deliver fps
20:06 Fixer_ paramat, place a finger near your eye close to it, look at it, ???, blurred background, that's how I vision it working
20:07 RealBadAngel no fancy shmacny shit, just pure geometry :)
20:07 paramat sure, but that assumes you're looking at the finger
20:08 red-001 wow
20:09 red-001 how hard would it be to add cel shading to that a few seconds after loading the game?
20:09 RealBadAngel lets call it "Paramat's spirits shader" and put there option to use it ;)
20:09 paramat heh. that would look good with a super-simple texture pack, 1px
20:09 RealBadAngel cel shader is on the fly effect
20:09 RealBadAngel you need to just turn it on in options nothing more
20:09 red-001 that could looks so cool
20:10 red-001 I mean can it start will the game is running?
20:10 red-001 as in when the world is already loaded?
20:13 RealBadAngel you could, but we do change settings in menu
20:14 RealBadAngel this is shaders stuff, its on the fly
20:14 paramat yes it's realtime per-frame
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20:16 Fixer_ paramat, in MT if + looks at anything beyond 1 node, don't blur anything, but if it looks say at wall at 0.3 node distance, with some view of background -> blur the background
20:17 Fixer_ easy and not aggresive
20:17 Fixer_ looking glass will need some workaground though
20:17 Fixer_ at glass*
20:18 RealBadAngel glass is not a problem
20:18 RealBadAngel depth is taken from surface
20:18 RealBadAngel idc if its transparent or not
20:18 Fixer_ RealBadAngel, from surface? o.O
20:18 RealBadAngel we do have depth map of the scene
20:19 RealBadAngel each pixel processed records its depth to form depth map of the scene
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20:19 RealBadAngel we store it for later use, in cel, dof, ssao or other shaders
20:20 RealBadAngel we do also have normals map for whole scene
20:20 Fixer_ it is very hard to find any data about average eye hyperfocal distance, but 1 citation is 25cm, focusing less than that will start to produce blur
20:20 RealBadAngel basically what im doing here is not only postprocessing but deferred rendering
20:21 RealBadAngel DOF is caluculated different way
20:21 Fixer_ RealBadAngel, point is... blur background if game crosshair is pointing < 0.3 nodes away from the camera
20:21 RealBadAngel atm focus point is crosshair
20:21 RealBadAngel then +- 10 nodes distance from it
20:21 Fixer_ too large
20:21 RealBadAngel everything else gets blurred
20:22 RealBadAngel further from focus zone, more blur
20:22 Fixer_ that's just wrong, average humans don't view like that %)
20:22 RealBadAngel can be changed
20:22 RealBadAngel terasology was using +-15
20:22 Fixer_ RealBadAngel, you should get blur only if you are looking with crosshair at something that is closer then 0.3 nodes from camera %)
20:23 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/ddaR89K.png
20:24 Fixer_ RealBadAngel, that one is against optic rules, that effect should kick in <0.3 nodes away %)
20:24 RealBadAngel therre no eye tracking, we cannot guess that
20:24 Fixer_ RealBadAngel, determine by crosshair
20:24 RealBadAngel thats what im doing
20:25 Fixer_ RealBadAngel, right, but blur is superstrong
20:25 RealBadAngel as light as it can be
20:25 RealBadAngel fullsized input, 1 pass
20:26 RealBadAngel theres no less blur possible
20:28 RealBadAngel also please do note that blur is not the same for the whole image
20:28 RealBadAngel it gets mixed with sharp image
20:29 RealBadAngel anyway, fine tuning it should be rather easy, theres only a few variables to control the effect
20:30 RealBadAngel once the code is cleaned i will put there explanations what each one is doing and you will be able to play with settings
20:30 RealBadAngel i wont be propably able to finetune this all on my own alone anyway
20:34 Obani Fixer_, a game might not always represent reality
20:34 Obani We're talking about a world made of voxels
20:39 Fixer_ RealBadAngel, that is artistic blur then, nothing close to reality
20:41 kaadmy then it's artistic
20:41 kaadmy is there anything wrong with some people liking the effects?
20:42 Fixer i have problems with blur... usually, some games has such blurs that my rage level goes over the roof
20:43 Fixer big ass graphics, HBAO, HDAO, rays of sun, bla-bla, and now this out of reality shitty blur
20:43 kaadmy aaand so?
20:43 kaadmy these are easily disableable
20:43 Fixer game ruined by blur
20:44 Fixer hope so
20:44 kaadmy what if say, your favorite game ran at 2 fps because the developer dislikes higher framerates?
20:44 Fixer why you asking me >_>
20:45 kaadmy because you're the one that dislikes it?
20:45 Fixer real life blur is even easier to make imho, main thing is start slight blur when focusing at objects closer tha(e)n 0.3 meters
20:46 Fixer 99% of the game you won't anyway %)
20:46 Fritigern Fixer: RealBadAngel already and repeatedly stated that all the effects are highly configurable, so if you don;t like it, change it.in
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23:08 red-001 game#708 <-- would  it be ok to save the puncher as metadata and if a puncher isn't set to use the current code?
23:08 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/708 -- The TNT mod does not use obj:punch(), but obj:set_hp()
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23:22 RealBadAngel ive just compared super duper DoF shader with bokeh and extra physics
23:22 RealBadAngel (to simplified one with just one blurred image)
23:22 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/TqaS23H.png -> with bokeh
23:22 RealBadAngel and the one im using right now: http://i.imgur.com/wqWkOZq.png
23:23 RealBadAngel which one is nicer?
23:24 Fixer RealBadAngel, 23H one, and is less glitchy on edges
23:24 RealBadAngel sure
23:24 RealBadAngel now look above
23:24 RealBadAngel at FPS
23:24 est31 yeah 23H is better
23:24 Fixer :(
23:25 RealBadAngel now you get it? ;)
23:25 Fixer RealBadAngel, look at cactuses at left
23:26 Fixer RealBadAngel, whatsup with dirt block?
23:26 RealBadAngel small glitch im working on atm
23:27 RealBadAngel bumpmapping and postprocessing shaders are fighting for the materials used somehow, some problem with callbacks
23:33 paramat joined #minetest-dev
23:35 paramat red-001 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_​game/pull/799#issuecomment-178884402
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23:43 EvergreenTree joined #minetest-dev
23:44 paramat RBA i will support these post-processing shaders, despite my issues with in-game DOF
23:46 paramat i'm much more concerned with making vertextangents optional :}
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