Time Nick Message 00:16 Hijiri are non-player entity nametags compatible with 0.4.13 clients? 00:41 kaeza My questions/concerns are around mods writing to their folders etc. <-- is this still a problem? 00:41 kaeza s/still/really/ 00:43 kaeza all big mods specifically write data to the world directory. if it's a problem for some obscure mod, the author should change it 00:48 rubenwardy writing to the mod folder isn't good 01:52 kaeza hmmmm, looks like it didn't need much change after all. could you review? https://github.com/kaeza/minetest/commit/bda05c527c5ade393a7e163143f6ddfa0495e164 01:55 sofar why are there different mts' for trees vs. trees_from_saplings? 01:59 kaeza one note about my commit: I know "kick" is probably another variant, but not bothering to add CDR_KICK to server.h, probably triggering a compilation of everything and their mother 02:05 paramat mapgen trees use per-node force-place for the trunks to allow trunks to replace leaves but not allow leaves to replace trunk. however force-placed trunks break stuff when you grow a sapling, so sapling-grown trees do not force-place trunk 02:05 sofar ahh 02:05 sofar that's good information for when I add new trees 02:05 paramat a growing sapling was able to grief bult structures 02:06 sofar paramat: thanks 02:06 paramat (built) 02:06 paramat so the sapling-grown trees use per-node force-place to only replace the sapling, nothing else 02:07 paramat this is all visible in my saveschems mod, which is the source of our trees 02:10 sofar paramat: another thing, something that bothers me about default mapgen is the harsh transitions between biomes. Is there a way that could be fixed? 02:10 paramat which mapgen? 02:10 sofar ... perhaps to clarify... fixed without introducing transient in-between biomes 02:11 sofar mgv7 with minetest_game 02:12 paramat that has a blobby form of mgv6 biome blend 02:12 paramat you can customise the mgv7 biome blend to make the transition larger 02:12 sofar ok, how? 02:12 sofar the _blend noise maps? 02:12 paramat yes 02:13 sofar I assume increasing scale works? 02:13 paramat yes increase the 'scale' 02:15 paramat the reason it's fairly low is because there are inevitably areas where the blend covers a large area and that doesn't look so good. you'll find out 02:16 paramat in other places that makes the transition rather small, it's a balance 02:17 paramat however in MT abrupt biome change is not seen as a problem but a characteristic, some people prefer no biome blend at all 02:18 paramat anyway at least in mgv7 the blend distance is settable by players by customising the blend noises 02:18 sofar I set both to 5, and I kinda like the result 02:19 paramat wow 02:19 paramat explore a bit and you'll get huge blobby areas 02:20 sofar yes but the transitions are gentle 02:20 sofar like, 20-40 meter interspersed tree types 02:20 paramat yep 02:22 gregorycu How are we all 02:23 paramat i might consider increasing the default very slightly, 2 or so 02:23 paramat busy dude 02:29 paramat bbl 02:29 sofar paramat: apart from creating a new biome in mapgen.lua, and adding a tree deco 02:29 sofar damn 02:29 sofar he left :( 02:30 sofar I can't seem to have my new tree spawned. 03:30 sofar okay, I'm clearly incapable of adding a biome and a new tree decoration for that biome 03:34 sofar is that not possible? mgv7, editing mapgen.lua 03:35 * VanessaE staples paramat's pants to his chair 03:35 VanessaE hold still G*d damn it :) 03:35 paramat i can't move! 03:37 VanessaE sofar: am I to assume you're basically trying to render plantlife modpack and/or biome_lib obsolete? :) 03:39 sofar VanessaE: no, just want to see how hard it is to add one new tree 03:39 sofar paramat: 03:39 VanessaE well I meant between this and the fallen-logs idea 03:39 sofar paramat: I tried adding a new biome and tree in mapgen.lua, but I can't ever find it in a map 03:40 sofar I did a register_biome(), and added a decoration for it 03:40 sofar it's in between coniferous and dedicious temperature wise 03:40 sofar ... never to be found .... 03:41 sofar VanessaE: tbh moretrees adds way too many and way too large trees, plus there's nothing wrong with obsoleting "trunks" 03:41 sofar :) 03:41 VanessaE heh 03:42 sofar btw thanks for joining minetest-mods 03:43 sofar VanessaE: this all started as a minetest game. I may decide to keep things I'd like to see as the -game, or push it to minetest_game 03:43 sofar and for some stuff I'd like to see I'll just use biome_lib etc. 03:43 VanessaE you're welcome 03:44 paramat you'll need to shift around the 'biome points' of every biome 03:44 sofar is there a minimum separation needed between them? 03:44 VanessaE sofar: in any case, you don't *have* to use moretrees ;) 03:44 paramat the points create a voronoi diagram of heat against humidity 03:45 sofar right, I knew that. Just wondering how I can verify that there's enough separation between the ones defined 03:45 sofar they're now 15 heat apart 03:46 paramat the points need to be roughly evenly spread. it's a tricky system to tune 03:46 paramat there's no minimum separation 03:47 sofar well I can see heat_points at 15, 35, 50, 65 03:47 sofar so that looks just fine 03:48 paramat best post your definitions somewhere 03:51 sofar well basically 03:51 sofar I added a heat = 50 humidity = 50 biome called "temperate_forest" 03:52 sofar then changed all occurrences of heat_point = 40 to 35 03:52 sofar and changed all heat_point = 60 to 65 03:54 sofar I'm expeting to see my new decoration in between apple trees and pine trees 03:54 sofar as those come from adjacent heat_point biomes 03:56 paramat hmmmm gregorycu has made map:updateLighting much faster, please could you review? core devs are very elusive at the moment https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3523 03:57 paramat sofar maybe start by using a different surface node to check it's not the deco failing? 03:57 sofar yeah, was thinking about that 03:58 sofar ah, well, there's my surface 03:58 sofar so the decoration borks 04:00 sofar ohhhh DERP 04:02 * sofar * 0.01 14:43 kilbith i'm trying to run Lua bytecode on MT, and getting "bad chunk in precompiled chunk" on start-up... this is normal ? 14:44 nrzkt yes 14:48 kilbith ok nvm, SN prevented it with "mod security"... 15:32 sfan5 this guy is funny https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=203546#p203546 15:33 * Krock prepares the "Noob confirmed" stamp 15:42 H-H-H building android is simple lol cd build, cd android make 15:44 Krock on linux 15:44 H-H-H yeah 15:49 red-001 admob??? 15:50 H-H-H some advertisment api for android 15:50 red-001 what??? 15:50 red-001 ohh 15:50 sfan5 he wants to compile minetest and add ads so he gets money 15:50 red-001 good luck to him 15:51 H-H-H from my experience you get a pitifull amount from those add sstems its barely worth the agravation lol 15:51 red-001 I doubt he would be able to make a 100 usd back if he did pay someone 15:52 red-001 it's not like there are no minecraft clones on play store 15:52 red-001 and last time I checked minetest controls on android weren't something that was close to good 17:47 paramat celeron55 please could you consider gregorycu for a core dev? he has been here a year and has done good work on fixing/optimising stuff https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commits?author=gregorycu the dev shortage is a problem now 17:48 red-001 could someone recommend a good GUI for git on windows? 17:49 rom1504 red-001: a vm with a console open on linux in it 17:49 paramat it's difficult to get the necessary 2 +1s to merge something 17:49 red-001 I know 17:50 red-001 but github for windows is just plain bad imo 17:50 Fixer paramat, bad sign, if you need to fight to merge code, something is wrong .__. 17:51 rom1504 well yes, all git guis are bad if you want to do more than looking at the diff and pressing "commit & push" 17:52 Warr1024 red-001: I've used TortoiseGit on windows with some success. 17:53 red-001 warr1024 I will check it out 17:55 paramat heh Fixer i mean it's difficult to even get 2 core dev reviewers 17:57 Calinou red-001, http://git-for-windows.github.io 17:57 Calinou this is command-line, but it's the best libre client 17:58 Calinou and it's not restricted to GitHub 18:05 kilbith i agree with paramat, we really need fresh new blood currently, sofar is another serious candidate (at least for managing minetest_game) 18:05 sofar shush, I break stuff 18:13 kaadmy heh 18:17 sofar kilbith: I'm not necessarily managing minetest_game. I have my agenda and I'm conservatively pushing some changes that some may think are a bit radical, so I'm happy to sit from the sidelines and let everyone judge my submissions 18:18 sofar however, I'm happy to review others' contributions and will regularly look at open issues and others' PRs 18:24 RealBadAngel hi 18:24 red-001 sofar I added support for locked trap doors to my PR 18:24 red-001 hi RealBadAngel 18:25 RealBadAngel ive took a short break from shaders stuff and coded infotext for entities 18:25 RealBadAngel now i do have two questions 18:25 paramat this needs review, much needed lighting optimisation https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3523 18:26 RealBadAngel 1st shall infotext show number of items in stack too? 18:27 RealBadAngel 2nd why the fuck theres dead code here: testCAO and itemCAO is not used at all code 18:29 RealBadAngel paramat, what about those textures you made issue for? 18:30 RealBadAngel celeron55, is testcao and itemcao safe to trash in your opinion? 18:30 paramat this is infotext for a stack of nodes sitting in the world as an object? what's the other info shown? 18:31 RealBadAngel paramat, same way as other infotext 18:31 paramat RBA i thought you'd want to host and maintain the texture pack with normalmaps 18:32 sofar heh, I was just looking at infotext for entities the other day 18:32 kaadmy imo the debug info for the pointed node should be available with mods 18:32 RealBadAngel thats obvious 18:32 sofar glad I didn't 18:32 RealBadAngel question is where 18:32 kaadmy the pointed_thing 18:32 sofar kaadmy: something like this: https://github.com/minetest-mods/inspector ? 18:33 kaadmy sofar: not really 18:34 kaadmy i want something like the debug info from F5 available through the mod api 18:34 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/5MWQNQC.png 18:34 RealBadAngel thats in debug mode, so debug info is also visibkle 18:34 kaadmy RealBadAngel: nice 18:34 paramat ah item name then, obviously 18:34 sofar kaadmy: there's a LOT of info you can display... how much debug info do you want? 18:35 RealBadAngel description 18:35 sofar kaadmy: my mod shows that it can easily fill out a whole page of text on some items 18:35 sofar e.g. chests 18:35 kaadmy just the pointed_thing node name 18:35 sofar that's already in F5 tho 18:35 sofar but, putting it in infotext would be nice 18:35 kaadmy it should be available tho 18:36 RealBadAngel paramat, where do you want this to be hosted? 18:36 kaadmy could be part of infotext, but i was thinking just something like minetest.get_player_by_name(name).get_pointed_thing() 18:36 paramat best personally hosted by yourself? so you can access it easily 18:37 paramat maybe we could make a copy in an official repo 18:37 RealBadAngel paramat, this is essential for default, its not an addon 18:38 RealBadAngel you have just deleted textures which are needed for relief mapping to work 18:38 paramat well it was decided otherwise, sorry 18:39 RealBadAngel not to mention we are about to have shine maps, lightmaps etc 18:39 paramat if you personally host the dev version, we could make regular copies into a new official repo? 18:39 RealBadAngel in modern games textured surface is not made just with one file 18:40 RealBadAngel i think that there should be an official repo within minetest project 18:40 sofar RealBadAngel: one issue you didn't address is that when you added normal maps to the default texture pack, you forced every texture pack maintainer to ALSO make normalmaps, since their textures are different 18:41 sofar that's been my biggest issue with normalmaps in the default texture pack 18:41 RealBadAngel sofar, i know, but that shouldnt be the reason to remove all the maps 18:41 kaadmy imo normalmapping looks bad without dynamic lighting 18:42 RealBadAngel im doing now lignhting 18:42 RealBadAngel and much much more 18:42 paramat nice 18:42 sofar RealBadAngel: it would be fine if normal maps were ever only loaded from the same map folder as the active texture location 18:43 sofar RealBadAngel: the problem is that minetest happily gets the normal map from default but the texture from an optional folder 18:43 sofar it can be fixed in code, and probably still has to 18:43 RealBadAngel idk what could be the best solution 18:44 sofar if texture from location X and normal map from location Y, do not use normal map 18:44 RealBadAngel one thing i know that effects will require at least 3-4 textures 18:44 sofar yeah, that I have no qualms with 18:44 sofar full speed ahead on light ;) 18:44 RealBadAngel light will require all of them 18:45 sofar if they're absent, what happens? 18:45 RealBadAngel flat, dumb shit 18:45 kaadmy heh 18:45 paramat the primary reason for removing is because normalmaps make texture creation much more difficult 18:45 sofar unplayable or... looks like current? 18:45 kaadmy ugly/flat nodes 18:46 RealBadAngel paramat, lack of skills is no exuse when creating GFX 18:46 sofar most people are just intimidated 18:47 RealBadAngel you could say, i cant paint "mona lisa", down with that shit 18:47 paramat textures are meant to be simple, core MT principle 18:47 RealBadAngel gfx is not simple 18:47 RealBadAngel even at 16px 18:47 sofar oh there are so many mods with insanly bad textures 18:47 kaadmy agree 18:48 RealBadAngel leave gfx to folks that know what theyre doing 18:48 paramat we can have new lighting without bumpmaps they're not essential 18:48 sofar my Aspen tree patch was 5 minutes of coding and 1.5 hours of tweaking texture pixels :) 18:48 kaadmy yep 18:48 kaadmy trees are especially hard 18:48 sofar but, I've come to like making textures 18:48 kaadmy so is cobblestone 18:48 sofar I'll have a texture pack out soon 18:48 RealBadAngel each texture you happily deleted just took me 2-3 days to make 18:49 paramat so you want most players to be unable to make textures 18:49 RealBadAngel think about it 18:49 RealBadAngel PLAYERS are not supposed to do textures 18:49 red-001 @paramat most player don't mind 18:49 red-001 players* 18:49 paramat modders i mean 18:49 RealBadAngel modders neither 18:50 RealBadAngel they hire artists 18:50 sofar I WISH 18:50 sofar lol 18:50 red-001 'hire' 18:50 sofar nah man, nobody hires artists 18:50 RealBadAngel or ask them kindly 18:50 sfan5 could be part of infotext, but i was thinking just something like minetest.get_player_by_name(name).get_pointed_thing() 18:50 sofar I'd consider it, though 18:50 paramat good grief, textures should be beyond modders ability =/ 18:50 sfan5 thats difficult because the server doesn't exactly (and not always) know where the player is looking 18:50 sofar maybe we should do a gofundme thing 18:51 RealBadAngel paramat, shit texture anybody can make 18:51 sfan5 this would give modders the ability to say "it will remove the block you point at" 18:51 sfan5 then people use that 18:51 kaadmy sfan5: that's why i think it should be client-side 18:51 sfan5 and say "it doesnt work, it removed a differrent block!!!!" 18:51 RealBadAngel good lookin, especially with demand of 16px is REALLY hard to make 18:51 paramat these fine detail bumpmaps are hideous, the lead devs dislike them and they're unsuitable for the roadmap 18:51 sfan5 kaadmy: that would require client-side modding 18:52 RealBadAngel paramat, GFX has nothing to do with roadmap 18:52 RealBadAngel as for the roadmap you can talk about code goals, not the look 18:52 paramat wrong 18:52 sfan5 RealBadAngel: it does, but afaik the roadmap does not say wheter we should have better graphics/bumpmaps/etc. or not 18:53 RealBadAngel thats my opinion ofc 18:53 paramat 'not about making fancy looking things at the expense of freedom' 18:53 paramat 'don't mind the lesser visuals..' 18:53 sofar there's some middle ground here... 18:54 sofar let's not try and see the worst of both ends 18:54 RealBadAngel youre minimalist guy paramat 18:54 paramat new lighting with flat textures is fine and much wanted 18:54 RealBadAngel some wants the world to look better 18:54 sofar and RBA is maximalist 18:54 sofar you guys are like salt'n'peppa 18:54 paramat i'm quoting the roadmap 18:54 RealBadAngel im just waiting for my VR headset 18:55 RealBadAngel we will see how the world will look like then 18:55 sofar we need both - minetest development should stay fast paced, but we also need some major changes to the core engine (lighting) 18:55 kaadmy ;) 18:55 sofar the obvious choice is branched development 18:55 kaadmy imho the two most needed changes right now are faster networking, and better lighting 18:56 paramat your normalmaps are wanted, but independently maintained by you 18:56 sofar there's much more than that 18:56 RealBadAngel ive ordered occulus rift googles, cant wait to put my hands on them :) 18:56 sofar RealBadAngel: selfie with them when you get them or we don't believe you 18:56 RealBadAngel paramat, but you are pushing this content out of the mainstream 18:56 paramat you should fork, you will get frustrated and blocked otherwise 18:57 kaadmy "occulus rift googles" sounds wrong :) 18:57 RealBadAngel i can fork, sure 18:57 paramat however much or your work will still be welcome in MT 18:57 paramat (of) 18:57 RealBadAngel i will end up with HD mt, and you will get shit without shaders 18:57 RealBadAngel deal? 18:57 kaadmy personally i wouldn't mind, others might 18:58 kaadmy shaders are too slow for me, i play withiut 18:58 paramat you can still contribute suitable stuff to MT, we want you to, you so some good stuff 18:58 RealBadAngel thats no excuse also 18:58 sofar RealBadAngel: the trick is to branch and get others to help you review/write code, I think 18:59 kaadmy tho it does seem like RBA's stuff keeps getting rejected 18:59 red-001 sofar so fragment minetest even more? 18:59 RealBadAngel lemme manage official branch within mt 18:59 RealBadAngel not an obscure fork 19:00 sfan5 ^ 19:00 RealBadAngel this way i can handle all the code and needed resources 19:00 sofar RealBadAngel: I agree you should attempt to make it a branch in the official git tree 19:00 paramat i don't think you'll be accepted as a core dev again 19:01 RealBadAngel paramt, if not i will ultimately create my own fork, and move away 19:01 RealBadAngel but then you wont get anything from me back 19:02 paramat well you could share some stuff if you want, that's up to you 19:02 RealBadAngel nvm 19:03 RealBadAngel i will just code things for my own pleasure 19:03 sofar never anything wrong with that 19:03 paramat some of your stuff is much wanted and appreciated in MT 19:03 sofar but I'd prefer a more collaborative location 19:05 Fixer who wants to be hero and fix liquid over gnore, texture tear problem and stutter insp and mp problem? %) 19:05 RealBadAngel me too 19:06 red-001 anyone is welcome to fix the liquid over ignore 19:06 red-001 I might work on it if no else does 19:07 red-001 but I'm not good at c++ 19:08 paramat gregorycu might be working on liquid/ignore soon 19:09 paramat also i'm working on that function currently so conflicts would arise 19:14 sofar I'd be very happy just seeing https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3529 fixed at this point 19:16 paramat well i'm studying water flow right now, but don't get your hopes up it's complex 19:16 red-001 very 19:18 red-001 the problem you showed looks like it's easier then the ignore problem 19:18 red-001 I solved the problem of water spreading like this on ignore 19:18 red-001 but not how to make the water flow down again 19:22 red-001 paramat what part of water are you working on? 19:22 paramat https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3501 almost done 19:23 paramat finding another core dev to +1 it will be difficult though :} 19:30 sofar maybe it'll help to remove the uneeded coding style fixes in that patch, that should make it a bit smaller 19:31 paramat RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3530 any help is much appreciated 19:31 paramat nah style fixes are trivial to review 19:43 blaze red-001: tell me how to reproduce your issue 19:47 paramat nore sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/759 'Place tree logs as decorations' 19:49 sfan5 paramat: how rare are those logs? 19:50 paramat well i'm going to test that again in-game, they have been made rarer on my request 19:50 paramat they can't be too common because too many can make cliffs look weird 19:52 paramat if there's too many we can adjust it later 19:53 sofar sfan5: common enough to be able to find one in a minute of walking around in the dense forest biomes 19:53 sofar sfan5: but rare enough that they're usually far apart 19:53 sfan5 ok 19:53 sfan5 paramat: i'm ok with the pull 19:53 red-001 blaze what issue? 19:53 sofar e.g. they're usually 20+ nodes apart easily 19:54 paramat thanks for looking 19:54 sofar they're even hard to find in jungles, since those are so dense 19:54 red-001 this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3507? 19:55 paramat nore sfan5 also https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/742 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/743 19:55 sofar sfan5: quantitatively, trees are at least 10x more common than trunks, I'd say 19:57 sfan5 paramat: i'm ok with game#742 19:57 paramat i'll merge game 755 later 19:57 paramat ok 19:58 paramat fences are more controversial i know 20:06 paramat i'll merge game 772 also since it's a trivial fix 20:17 RealBadAngel paramat, ive commented your request out 20:17 RealBadAngel still im lacking the motivation to do so 20:18 paramat ok no problem 20:18 RealBadAngel you want me to fix things but be an outsider at the same time 20:18 RealBadAngel gimme HD branch and i will work for both 20:21 RealBadAngel this way i can develop HD stuff being close to mainstream 20:21 RealBadAngel and if others decide to move stuff to master there wont be any problem 20:22 RealBadAngel im with the project for circa 4 yrs already, i know that my ideas can be controversial 20:23 RealBadAngel but even you have used to some of them 20:25 paramat thanks for the comments. you may be best qualified to help with this, and attempting to fix past work is sort-of expected. anyway if at some point you are happy to do so it will be very appreciated by many players 20:28 red-001 the delete mod button in the built in modmanger doesn't work 20:32 RealBadAngel paramat, past, present or the future, its all combined, im developing particular stuff since years 20:32 RealBadAngel most of my engine commits are having in mind future stuff 20:33 RealBadAngel and many things were on hold until ive solved problems on the way, see water shaders 20:34 RealBadAngel commits that make one and the only thing are rare from me 20:34 RealBadAngel most of them are just steps 20:35 paramat yes 20:36 RealBadAngel you are having very simplistic vision, and i on the other hand can see all the future candies 20:36 RealBadAngel and work hard for them 20:39 RealBadAngel some of my ideas may not work (as 3d plants) 20:40 RealBadAngel but i would love to make them as fast to be useable 20:40 paramat maybe you can convince c55 to give you a HD branch, i'm fairly neutral about that 20:40 RealBadAngel im not demanding, but asking 20:41 RealBadAngel it could be right solution imho 20:41 RealBadAngel easy to sync, easy to grab 20:42 RealBadAngel i wont be messing in master 20:42 RealBadAngel but if you will want to move something to master it will be far easier for you 20:44 RealBadAngel if you (devs) wont agree on that, i will ultimately will make my own fork, but i dont want to 20:49 RealBadAngel somebody please close issue #3536 20:51 sofar red-001: the delete mod button in the built in modmanger doesn't work 20:51 sofar red-001: file an issue? 20:52 red-001 I will 22:53 paramat a HD branch maintained by RBA seems a potentially good idea to me now 22:56 sofar glad to hear that! 23:14 Fritigern Not that my opinion in this would matter (i'm no dev), but I think I have missed what the purpose of that branch is. The way it sounds to me is that it could incorporate stuff that is considered too demanding of the average user's hardware. If so, then I would be for such a branch because developing those features could lead to finding ways to make those work on lesser specced hardware. 23:15 paramat ok will merge game 710 742 755 772 in a moment 23:22 paramat see irc logs for the discussion earlier 23:23 rubenwardy Even if it doesn't work on lesser hardware, it's good for those with better hardware 23:24 paramat now merging to game.. 23:24 RealBadAngel see commodore c64 or zx spectrum first titles 23:25 RealBadAngel and then whats done later 23:25 RealBadAngel hardware was the same, only coders evolved 23:26 RealBadAngel so having two branches can be benefit for both of them 23:27 sofar it benefits the developers as well as the code 23:27 RealBadAngel mainly the code 23:27 sofar you'd instantly have 20 developers looking at your branches 23:28 sofar at least, much higher chance of that 23:28 RealBadAngel code doesnt remember the fights 23:28 RealBadAngel more eyes, more opinions and ideas 23:30 RealBadAngel but on the theme.... 23:31 RealBadAngel what i really hate is comment without any knowledge behind 23:33 RealBadAngel but still with 20 voices you can get something helpful, thats absolutely right 23:34 RealBadAngel no coder is perfect, no idea is flawless 23:36 RealBadAngel im going to take a nap, will push two PRs later on, in the morning, need to play with them a bit, just for testing 23:37 paramat merged 23:39 paramat phew 23:49 sofar paramat, good work, have a beer 23:49 sofar also, go saw some logs while you drink that 23:52 paramat i was just now testing logs.. 23:54 sofar FYI, I left the pine tree logs at a slightly higher rate 23:54 sofar the geologist in me says: pine trees are colder climate trees 23:54 paramat yes noticed 23:54 sofar and in colder weather, logs decay slower 23:54 sofar so there are more dead trees on the ground naturally 23:54 paramat ah i see 23:55 sofar that kind of reasoning is all over my sedimentology mod as well 23:55 sofar also, recently in Oregon 23:55 sofar a study confirmed that fallen logs in pine forests generally don't decay much for the first 70 years 23:56 sofar especially in the non-coastal regions behind the cascades 23:56 sofar this causes big problems when fires move through, obviously :) 23:56 paramat will merge it in a moment 23:56 sofar this is relevant, since I live in Oregon and have a 10acre forest property :)