Time  Nick         Message
00:02 Obani        RealBadAngel, I really don't understand what's wrong ? 0.o
00:03 Obani        lel RealBadAngel , new menu music ? xD https://up1.ca/#3S5D2-8_DU4HfLOWldypNA
09:16 celeron55    someone is proposing that Minetest could receive a lot of funding (years of full-time work) from a music-related EU project for implementing specifically stuff for staging an opera in MT, generally education-related stuff and for generally improving things
09:16 celeron55    "According to my preliminary understanding, the effort would go towards developing new mods with features to be worked out in the course of the next month or two by the educators, towards expanding the media streaming capabilities of the engine, making Minetest usable with Google Cardboard or something similar, and whatever else you think would be a good idea to work on."
09:16 celeron55    i wonder if this is something worth grabbing onto
09:17 Obani        RealBadAngel, you know what ?
09:18 Obani        I rebooted my PC, and now it works
09:18 Obani        -.-
09:19 RealBadAngel Obani, thats good :)
09:25 Obani        Did you try flat mapgen ?
09:26 Obani        Did someone try flat mapgen ?
09:27 celeron55    i mean, if i or someone else wants to work on minetest as a full-time job, this is pretty much the chance of the century for getting to do that
09:28 RealBadAngel well, im lookin for the job right now
09:28 celeron55    the problem is, this would very strong organization from our part; none of this "maybe someone does something"
09:29 celeron55    +require
09:29 Obani        If I liked to code and was good to it, I would probably do it lel :p
09:29 Obani        celeron55, do as Debian does
09:29 Obani        elect a new representant
09:29 celeron55    and i or someone else would alos have to set up a company to manage the funds
09:30 RealBadAngel i do understand that requirement, i mean to work harder and code more
09:31 Obani        I think you should add a big pop-up on the forum to call to vote
09:31 Obani        And make a 2 weeks voting ime
09:31 Obani        time*
09:31 RealBadAngel doing what you love and get paid for that is more than enough motivation to get in
09:31 celeron55    i need to think about this; anyway, if someone has something to say about this or really wants to take part in this, /msg me or something
09:32 RealBadAngel thinkin of education, i can think of ciruits - basic logic
09:33 RealBadAngel and goals mentioned above - VR
09:34 RealBadAngel i could implement Oculus Rift support if i get dev one
09:34 Obani        There's more important for now IMO :p
09:35 Obani        (As 98% of players on planet don't have an occulus rift)
09:35 RealBadAngel yet
09:35 celeron55    well if we'd receive funding specifically for doing that among other things, then it would have to be done obviously
09:36 RealBadAngel btw, "from music-related EU project"....
09:37 RealBadAngel we dont have any music ;)
09:37 Obani        That can be done :p
09:37 celeron55    i imagine i would be able to slip in something like half of the work being general improvement of minetest
09:37 Obani        RealBadAngel, what musics do we need ?
09:37 RealBadAngel well, i proposed already lotsa tracks...
09:38 RealBadAngel https://github.com/RealBadAngel/mtmusic
09:38 Obani        If that's what I'm thinking too so that's a no ^^
09:38 celeron55    RBA proposed music to be included in the engine; it's a no-no and will always be a no-no
09:39 RealBadAngel those ones can be used by a subgame
09:39 RealBadAngel ive already sorted them out with proposed destinations
09:39 Obani        let me check it out
09:40 Obani        celeron55, I think it shall be included in the engine, not the repo
09:40 Obani        Or not in the engine but so
09:40 RealBadAngel no, not the engine
09:40 Obani        make a way to play musics client-side
09:40 RealBadAngel we can do that already
09:41 RealBadAngel i mean store the files only client side
09:41 Obani        RealBadAngel, do you realize those musics are already used by many games, including inexor ?
09:41 Obani        Which is a FPS, so it's way more logical that he includes musics like that :p
09:41 Obani        RealBadAngel, I made a menu music for a space game some days ago
09:42 RealBadAngel no wonder, those tracks are great
09:42 Obani        RealBadAngel, https://up1.ca/#i1ag1FbrGmqMc5eajHYrlQ
09:42 RealBadAngel hard to find better ones that are free at the same time
09:42 Obani        RealBadAngel, a track can be great
09:42 Obani        But include super mario ones in Limbo, that will make a shitty game
09:43 RealBadAngel those are just proposals
09:43 Obani        But still, my music is not made for minetest universe :p
09:43 RealBadAngel on the other hand, if we could have funds
09:43 RealBadAngel i do have friends from demoscene, still active but doing different things
09:44 RealBadAngel i could ask Andrzej Mielcarek for example to compose music for us
09:45 kahrl_       I expect the people from the EU project will be selecting the music for their project by themselves
09:45 RealBadAngel he is for example doing music for tv spots for political parties in poland
09:45 kahrl_       the minetest funds will go towards coding
09:46 Obani        RealBadAngel, would it cost money ?
09:46 RealBadAngel kahrl_, "music-related" fund... so i guess we will have to code some music ;)
09:46 Obani        I can work for free...
09:46 Obani        But what are the needs ?
09:47 RealBadAngel Obani, if you would like to hire professional, skilled musican you will propably will have to pay him ;)
09:47 Obani        RealBadAngel, professional and skilled musician is rare
09:47 Obani        are*
09:47 RealBadAngel he made music for my games in the past
09:47 RealBadAngel in late 80's
09:48 celeron55    kahrl_: would you work on specific MT features if you were paid the same amount you are paid in whatever job you have now or have had at some point in time?
09:48 RealBadAngel ive paid him 20% of my incomes from those games
09:48 Obani        Anyway I'll do musics
09:49 Obani        My studies are shit so I pass time making music
09:50 kahrl_       celeron55: I probably would, but there might be some complications (tax-related etc.)
09:50 kahrl_       PMing details
10:43 Obani        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EtSWs9729s
12:39 rubenwardy   Mceleron55> [...] Minetest could receive a lot of funding (years of full-time work) from a music-related EU project for implementing specifically stuff for staging an opera in MT, generally education-related stuff and for generally improving things
12:39 rubenwardy   very interesting
12:40 rubenwardy   Have they given details on the stuff they'd like, or is it just an initial suggestion?
13:08 celeron55    rubenwardy: well they (or well, this one guy) is asking whether i am interested
13:08 celeron55    it's a very tough question
13:08 rubenwardy   responsibilty XD
13:08 rubenwardy   responsibility XD
13:08 celeron55    i don't know if i want to work on minetest so much and i don't know if anyone else wants either
13:09 celeron55    i am sure i could find a way to handle this but ^
13:12 celeron55    what this guy is asking from me is whether i want to join the project and start figuring out what exactly should be developed in minetest for it and how much work that exactly is; i mean, they won't just tell what to do, they want to plan it together
13:12 celeron55    and also whether the planned work can then be done
13:12 rubenwardy   so like a consultant?
13:14 celeron55    think of their interests; they have a big bunch of money they want to use, and they want to figure out if giving it to minetest would result in something that they can use for their (rather broad) goals
13:14 celeron55    the only way i could promise that is to promise i will do it if i can't get anyone else to do it
13:17 celeron55    >Have they given details on the stuff they'd like
13:17 celeron55    i quoted all the details
13:18 celeron55    it's not enough details for me either though
13:18 celeron55    this is too vague and i have no idea what kind of an experience it would be
13:24 celeron55    i guess my only option is to tell him that i don't have a reason to immediately deny the offer, but i can't promise anything until i know exactly what would be implemented in the project
13:24 celeron55    or, well, the other option is to deny the offer right away
13:25 celeron55    i am not able to imagine what it would be to be paid to work on minetest full-time for a year or something
13:25 celeron55    that's absurd
13:26 celeron55    a year is enough to turn it into something completely different or rewrite it completely or a make a bunch of completely different forks out of it
13:29 celeron55    that kind of work effort doesn't make any sense from the standpoint of how MT is normally developed; what even happens when those funds end, then?
13:36 exio4        celeron55: the code will still be there, so? :)
13:48 celeron55    i figure the way to organize that project would be to set it up as a project alongside minetest that contributes to minetest whenever possible just like any contributor, and whatever it can't contribute it will fully maintain and develop itself
13:48 celeron55    it would probably be called just "minetest for education" or something
13:49 celeron55    it might or might not end up maintaining its own fork depending on all the details
13:50 celeron55    anyone working on it would use their excess work hours for regularly developing minetest
13:52 celeron55    so now if i would ask someone whether they would join this, it would not be about paid work on minetest, but paid work on "minetest for education", which makes things a lot more clear
13:53 celeron55    and completely retains the existing organization of minetest (well, other than some people having a shit ton of time to spend on it)
15:46 est31        cool thing, this proposal.
15:47 est31        I'd say let's not miss the oppurtunity.
15:47 est31        Not a job for me though, I am uni student.
15:53 est31        And yeah its better done as a fork of minetest, that has its own game and contributes back code to the engine if there is something interesting to share.
16:13 paramat      if it happens at all (and i'm not sure it should) yes it should be another project/fork, otherwise i would be very concerned about money/contract type pressures and influence
16:15 celeron55    the reason why i am possibly interested in it is that it would give a lot of time for general minetest work too
16:16 celeron55    assuming all the specific work that isn't wanted in minetest is kept separate, it would be a big help
16:17 celeron55    and at the same time i'm kind of worried because it might be hard
16:19 Obani        [off] paramat, do you think valley mapgen c++ could enter minetest_engine ?
16:30 paramat      Obani yes i would like that added
16:31 paramat      mapgens are great because they are small files that add entire new worlds
16:31 Obani        paramat, so you know that duane-r did a c adaptation of it ? :)
16:32 paramat      btw mgflat is ready to be unhidden, just waiting for a settings fix by PilzAdam
16:32 paramat      yes
16:33 Fixer        new mapgens are nice additions
16:34 Fixer        please look at moretrees blackshadows bug on mapgen v7 please
16:34 Fixer        if you have time
16:36 Obani        Fixer, I think we know them
16:36 Obani        That's why mapfix was created
16:36 Fixer        no, it is dirty workaround
16:36 paramat      heh that's somewhat down to a risky use of l-system trees, each tree gen has it's own lighting update so that mod really shouldn't be using l-system during mapgen
16:37 Obani        paramat, flat seemed very strange to me
16:37 Obani        Maybe because I shall tweak MT_game for it
16:38 paramat      strange?
16:38 Fixer        btw, mapfix is very slow, try using /mapfix 100 and that will take pretty big time to compleat
16:39 paramat      mgflat is just a flat mgv7, same biomes
16:39 Obani        Fixer, of course it is slow
16:39 Fixer        /mapfix 200 took me ~200 seconds to process (fixing shadow problems on old coders red crab)
16:39 Obani        Fixer, at least it did fix them
16:39 Obani        You shall not be abled to fix an area of 200, excepted if you are admin
16:40 Obani        On our server, it's limited to 40
16:40 Fixer        yes, but it is still a dirty hack :}
16:40 Obani        And is way enough
16:40 Obani        So fix it if you really are a Fixer
16:40 Fixer        ofc
16:41 paramat      however, we do have a lighting update that in some situations causes shadows, so there is a problem somewhere
16:41 paramat      also shadow bugs at y = 63 now in mgv5/v7/fractal
16:41 Fixer        i've installed dreambuilder and right after the start i found shadow problem few nodes away :}
16:42 Fixer        it is not rare problem
16:42 paramat      indeed
16:42 Obani        paramat, is it normal that fractal only generates an island ?
16:42 paramat      yes an island 8000x10000x1000 high
16:43 paramat      in a shallow sea
16:43 Obani        Ok
16:43 Obani        And is it normal that flat as caves ?
16:43 Obani        has*
16:43 paramat      but you can scale and stretch mgfractal with parameters
16:44 paramat      yes mgflat has tunnels and large caves below y = -32
16:44 Obani        paramat, no
16:45 Obani        I meant : caves that arrives to y=0 :p
16:45 paramat      yes i mean tunnels come to the surface
16:45 Obani        oh, ok
16:45 paramat      grammar :)
16:45 Obani        :x
16:46 Obani        0.4.14 will be the flat servers update :p
16:46 Obani        flat PvP, flat creative (more logical), flat survival ^^
16:47 Obani        paramat, can c++ mapgens disable nodes generation ?
16:47 paramat      do try the lakes and hills in mgflat
16:47 paramat      erm singlenode mapgen?
16:48 Obani        paramat, why is flat so full of trees ? :p
16:49 paramat      you can disable decorations now. yes the biomes can get big
16:50 Obani        Is there some kind of "mapgen configuration guide" ?
16:50 paramat      conf.example
16:51 Obani        no, I mean a real documentation
16:51 paramat      no, only my posts in the forum
16:52 paramat      not much fun writing docs
16:54 paramat      you can ask me questions in the forum though, then it's there for everyone to see
17:17 paramat      nore sfan5 shall we close mtgame issue 1 'READ THIS: File engine issues on minetest' since it's rarely seen at the end of the list?
17:29 sfan5        paramat: yeah
17:34 paramat      ok
19:29 Obani        RealBadAngel, I would really like to try out your shaders, but how ?
19:29 Obani        Do I have to clone your repo ?
19:29 Obani        Or can I merge some parts of it with my clone ?
19:50 Obani        RealBadAngel, how to activate your water shaders ?
19:50 paramat      https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3407 'Lua_api.txt: Add documentation for biome definition'
19:51 paramat      Obani instructions are in the PR
20:08 est31        hrmm anybody there who can build on windows??
20:11 RealBadAngel Obani, have u read instructions in the pr?
20:13 RealBadAngel est31, i forgot about compability, will fix that (testing the code on different servers
20:13 est31        okay great
20:14 sfan5        est31: me
20:14 sfan5        but i'll have to check whether my setup still works
20:14 est31        hrmm might not be needed after all
20:15 est31        I've thought there was a bug in irrlicht and wanted to ask sb to test it on win
20:15 est31        but it seems to work, just my testing setup had problems
20:18 Obani        RealBadAngel, what pr ?
20:19 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3391
20:19 RealBadAngel in the last post u have all the files needed to test water shaders
20:22 Obani        Thanks :)
20:23 RealBadAngel when u get it to work, please do comment it
20:23 RealBadAngel i need feedback
20:24 Obani        RealBadAngel, I want to see how it looks like, but I really have a weak computer :p
20:25 RealBadAngel Obani, that shader is not resources demanding at all
20:25 RealBadAngel its lighter than default one
20:26 RealBadAngel side effect of using it - problem with different animation frame for the mapblocks wont apply
20:27 RealBadAngel all the water is just single surface at the rendering time
20:27 Obani        RealBadAngel, when I tell my computer is weak
20:27 Obani        It REALLY is
20:27 RealBadAngel what are specs of your box?
20:28 Obani        ? my box ?
20:29 RealBadAngel your PC
20:30 RealBadAngel cpu, gpu, system and ram aviable
20:30 RealBadAngel and firtst of all do try the code
20:31 Obani        let me compile it first :p
20:33 Fixer_       RealBadAngel, you said yesterday you will maybe compile some build for windows for me to test, any results?
20:34 paramat      will merge https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3406 'Dungeongen: Also preserve river water nodes' in 15mins
20:35 Fixer_       paramat, is there any posibility to add setting to control water/lava in caves: depth/probability?
20:37 Fixer_       mtg water/lava are not dangerous at all, and hard to find :p
20:37 RealBadAngel Fixer_, sorry, ive had a busy day today
20:38 Obani        RealBadAngel, https://up1.ca/#YZPZ2a2kvlBtXvASIQ7G3w
20:38 Obani        This is what I have :/
20:39 RealBadAngel im going tommorow to travel 300km+
20:39 RealBadAngel have to
20:40 RealBadAngel Obani, you havent read the instructions...
20:40 RealBadAngel enable damn bumpmapping please :P
20:45 RealBadAngel Obani, any difference? ;)
20:46 Obani        RealBadAngel, this definetely works well
20:46 Obani        But I can't make waving water work with it
20:46 Obani        And also, animation continues through pause
20:47 Obani        But this is a very nice feature, and lag-less !
20:48 RealBadAngel waving wont work with it
20:49 Obani        Why ?
20:49 RealBadAngel i just simply removed that code
20:49 Obani        :/
20:49 RealBadAngel it was causing more problems than its worth
20:49 Obani        The problem is it lacks of reliefs :/
20:50 Obani        that*
20:50 RealBadAngel that is not a problem
20:50 RealBadAngel you may want to check lava shader that is using relief mapping
20:51 RealBadAngel ive made the surface melt and freeze continously, changing height of flowing pieces
20:52 RealBadAngel i can apply the same to waves on water surfaces
20:53 RealBadAngel hmmmm, and thats what i needed tangent space for
20:54 Obani        RealBadAngel, that will be for another day, I have to go ;)
20:55 Obani        Also, maybe check http://sauerbraten.org/ shaders ;)
20:58 RealBadAngel Obani, i dont have to
20:58 RealBadAngel step by step im coding all what i need
20:59 RealBadAngel damn water took me 1,5 yr to be possible
20:59 RealBadAngel but im not a youngster, i can live with that
20:59 Obani        bb :)
21:16 paramat      anyway good you mention rarity of large caves, i'll rethink their density
21:18 Fixer        paramat, more lava and water = more fun and challenge (just my guess)
21:19 paramat      except in mgv6, lava caves only appear below y = -256
21:20 celeron55    generally there needs to be quite an unnatural density of caves and ores if you try to optimize for gameplay
21:20 celeron55    it's not good if it looks good
21:21 paramat      yes i notice mgv6 is packed with caves
21:22 paramat      i think i need to make large caves more common in the other mapgens
21:22 Fixer        i have hard time finding any caves and lava in mapgen 7, if unlucky you can dig up to -500 never finding anything (happened to me)
21:23 paramat      when digging underground the density of caves seems much lower than when you're flying underground judging it visually
21:24 Fixer        yes
21:24 Fixer        they usually spiralling down
21:24 Fixer        DNA like
21:24 Fixer        it feels
21:25 Fixer        there are some bigger, horizontal caves
21:29 paramat      mgv6 has on average 1 large cave per chunk, mgv7 etc have a 1 in 4 chance of 1 or 2 large caves, too low i think
21:31 paramat      ok will increase
21:35 celeron55    generally if you want to have good time digging around underground, there needs to be a cave at like 50 nodes to any direction from any point
21:35 celeron55    it's like... if you see any kind of distance when flying underground with noclip enabled, there are too few
21:38 Fixer        this issue is debatable ofc
21:38 celeron55    it's a matter of personal preference and gameplay habits of course
21:38 est31        well its quite easy with minimap enabled
21:38 celeron55    should be configurable when creating a world
21:39 celeron55    minimap is boring
21:41 Fixer        could be nice to have option to select: cave density, lava/water in caves start depth, lava/water probability... other
21:42 Fixer        right now mining is not challenging at all, just put a rock on a mouse and go eat
21:50 RealBadAngel celeron55, "minimap is boring", what do you mean by that?
21:52 paramat      now merging 3406 3407
21:55 rubenwardy   minimap ruins the surprise, I guess
21:55 rubenwardy   but it's useful above ground on servers
21:55 rubenwardy   where you can get lost
21:58 paramat      merge complete