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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-11-28

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07:20 OldCoder
07:21 OldCoder Answer to probably uneducated question is requested: Formspec labels are not stored in the DB, right? Just the data is stored. If you change the labels in a mod, they should change regardless of contents of the DB. Is this so?
07:23 OldCoder Ah
07:23 OldCoder They *are* stored in the DB after all
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09:53 neoascetic Hi everyone. Someone, please, show me the code where leaves removing occurs after tree digged?
09:53 nrzkt neoascetic, look at the ABM dedicated to it in lua
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09:54 neoascetic I am unable to find it. For what should I search?
09:56 neoascetic As I understand this should be somewhere in minetest_game, since it minimum development game leaves are not removed
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10:04 kilbith it's sad to see the git tree so dead these days :(
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10:16 neoascetic Oh, found it, it is ABM for group:leafdecay...
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13:20 paramat PilzAdam when you're around see https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/3402#issuecomment-160294849
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15:33 est31 paramat, the bug you pointed out was only about a new bug, right?
15:33 est31 but basically the thing PilzAdam fixed in that PR is ok?
15:34 paramat correct :)
15:34 est31 soo... merge?
15:36 paramat hm possibly, i thought it might be better to add the extra fix to that PR, since it' sso closely related, less work for PA
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15:36 est31 okay, lets wait a day then
15:37 est31 if he fixes it in the pr, we merge it before the day ends, if he doesnt fix it in the pr, we merge it once the day is over, and you make a new issue
15:38 paramat yes, if PA is busy then we can merge it to avoid conflicts
15:40 paramat i might merge this fairly trivial fix later https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3406 'Dungeongen: Also preserve river water nodes'. highlighting hmmmm just in case you want to look at it
15:43 paramat soon i might finally add the docs for biome definitions
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17:42 VanessaE_ idea:  give each user on a minetest server a unique key (something simple, an ssl hash or something) unique to them - not associated with username or password, and persistent across sessions.
17:42 VanessaE_ something that can be used by a mod to ban a single user in a multi-user household.
17:43 VanessaE_ (I presume the key would be generated and stored by the client and sent to the server along with regular login credentials)
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17:54 Krock VanessaE_, by using the mac address or what?
17:54 VanessaE_ Krock: unique, random key
17:54 VanessaE_ once generated, it's stored and used forever (until deleted)
17:55 Krock but that cache could be cleared somehow
17:55 Krock because it'd be requierd to save it on the client side too
17:55 VanessaE_ yes, unless the key is stored somewhere that the user wouldn't want to delete
17:56 VanessaE_ I know some multiplayer games use a public/private key sort of setup like ssh
17:56 VanessaE_ but that's overkill
17:56 Krock it's always possible to take out a value of a file that's not compiled or encrypted in some way
17:56 VanessaE_ I know.
17:56 VanessaE_ I'm just saying it could be made "inconvenient"
17:56 Krock yup
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18:00 DFeniks what if i play from multiple clients ? (not at the same time ofc.)
18:01 DFeniks how its different from banning username?
18:01 Krock system-wise path...
18:02 Krock it would be possible to a degree to ban a person
18:02 Krock not just an username
18:02 Krock s/wise/wide/
18:02 DFeniks ^dual boot OS , windows linux
18:03 DFeniks i really play from both
18:05 DFeniks and how this would not ban other user from same house? nevermind i got it , you mean if they use different pc
18:05 VanessaE_ DFeniks: that's correct
18:06 VanessaE_ as for playing from multiple clients, well, the key in question would need to be stored somewhere separate from the client itself
18:06 VanessaE_ (e.g. user's home dir. ~/.local/minetest or something)
18:08 DFeniks as long as i still can have client in one folder , like compiled with run in place
18:08 VanessaE_ I mean separate from that, too
18:09 VanessaE_ pick some path 99.9% of linux installs will have (such as ~/.config or ~/.local) and use it
18:09 VanessaE_ let the client stay wherever
18:09 VanessaE_ as long as the key doesn't move around
18:12 est31 we could make it like minecraft and require money to sign up to public servers
18:12 DFeniks yeah i know like blender for example can be run from folder but settings are stored somewhere in home like ./blender (i dont really remember)
18:12 est31 this way we could get some money to run them :)
18:12 VanessaE_ est31: um, no.
18:12 est31 but otherwise I dont think such a key will be effective
18:12 est31 it will just lead to an arms race
18:12 VanessaE_ how so?
18:13 DFeniks isnt it easy to found and delete that folder thought?
18:13 est31 its basically security through obscurity
18:13 VanessaE_ well
18:13 est31 not good, concept wise
18:13 VanessaE_ what other way is there, then?
18:13 est31 ip address, like now.
18:13 VanessaE_ nope
18:13 VanessaE_ that doesn't address the concern I was talking about
18:14 est31 ah I see
18:14 est31 multi user household...
18:14 VanessaE_ yeah
18:14 VanessaE_ this is becoming a problem
18:14 est31 well, what about whitelisting usernames?
18:14 VanessaE_ wouldn't work on a public server.
18:15 est31 I mean you ban the ip, and if somebody complains that their ip got banned because their little sister did grief, then they can get whitelisted
18:15 est31 doable with our current mod system already.
18:15 VanessaE_ that could work
18:15 VanessaE_ I still think a per-user key would be better though
18:17 DFeniks that might work but maybe not against most dedicated offenders
18:17 VanessaE_ the idea is to make it reasonably cumbersome for one user to masquerade as another; more traditional methods like ban-by-ip, or dropping them at the firewall, can be used for people who know how to get around that.
18:23 rubenwardy est32, VanessaE_: most people I ban are just immature kids that know little about computers. They just try a different user name each day, until their ip changes and they get in
18:23 rubenwardy well
18:23 VanessaE_ exactly my point
18:23 rubenwardy from their interactions I guess they are
18:24 VanessaE_ ban by IP is not sufficient in any case.
18:24 VanessaE_ /xban is better than /ban but even THAT isn't enough in some situations
18:24 rubenwardy xban2 is awesome
18:25 Fixer my ISP moved to crap department, everybody has CGNAT :( So many people under 1 IP
18:25 est31 rubenwardy, do you know whether they use mobile clients
18:25 est31 or do they use non mobile ones
18:25 VanessaE_ of course using a key has an extra benefit:  no need for passwords :)
18:25 rubenwardy I haven't installed any stats
18:26 rubenwardy Is it possible to make a stats mod to see the OS/device of people connecting?
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18:26 est31 rubenwardy, only with a debug build, unfortunately
18:26 est31 but OS and device are not possible
18:26 VanessaE_ rubenwardy: or, run a media server for your minetest server.
18:26 rubenwardy the client has to be though
18:26 VanessaE_ and get your stats from that.
18:26 rubenwardy that's good
18:26 est31 there is no user agent like stuff for minetest, unfortunately
18:26 VanessaE_ surely the user agent varies between andr...
18:26 VanessaE_ damn.
18:27 est31 but yeah, media server will work
18:27 rubenwardy what's a light weight media server which will record these things?
18:27 VanessaE_ nginx
18:28 VanessaE_ scrape the logs
18:30 Fixer https://stackoverflow.com/quest​ions/3652271/getting-os-version ?
18:30 rubenwardy not for clients
18:31 rubenwardy mods run server side
18:31 Fixer oh :S
18:31 Fixer damned
18:36 Fixer for example, CS 1.6 anticheat utilizes cookies to ban efficiently (if you block port 80 in firewall, you can avoid the ban)
18:36 Fixer but it is somewhat crude and not safe
18:36 Fixer better avoid the web stuff in mt
18:37 est31 CS what?
18:37 rubenwardy counterstrike
18:37 est31 aha
18:38 est31 well blocking port 80 is one option
18:38 est31 or just deleting cookies is the other
18:38 Fixer nevermind, don't implement web browser in mt, it will open huge security holes :(
18:38 est31 I doubt we should get supercookies like VanessaE_ promotes
18:38 est31 they can be abused like normal cookies too
18:38 VanessaE_ using port 80 isn't really an option anyway; how would it work with several servers on the same machine?
18:38 est31 VanessaE_ is a nice person, and most of the server owners are too
18:39 est31 but things can change, cookies werent invented with ad tracking in mind either
18:39 rubenwardy There's no griefing in CTF, only sabotage - no real loss or destruction.
18:39 est31 most of the server owners == all that I know
18:40 rubenwardy if you were to make supercookies, they'd have to be only for banning. Possibly for linking multi-account users
18:43 Calinou <VanessaE_> idea:  give each user on a minetest server a unique key (something simple, an ssl hash or something) unique to them - not associated with username or password, and persistent across sessions.
18:43 Calinou this is what Quake 3 did with GUIDs, easily fakeable and abusable
18:43 Calinou it almost became a meme, it was so easy to change GUIDs :p
18:43 VanessaE_ heh
18:44 VanessaE_ remember, perfect is the enemy of good :P
18:44 est31 lets add DRM to minetest
18:44 est31 and make it closed source
18:44 est31 then nobody can use cracked minetest clients anymore!
18:44 VanessaE_ :P
18:44 RealBadAngel lol
18:44 Calinou est31, let's reinvent PunkBuster!
18:44 Calinou admin-requested clients of screenshots.
18:44 Calinou 100% cheatproof
18:44 Calinou screenshots of clients*
18:45 RealBadAngel est31, wanna feature request?
18:45 VanessaE_ you guys joke about it, but I'm being serious.
18:46 VanessaE_ it's a problem.  there's gotta be some kind of solution that works well enough.
18:46 RealBadAngel quite easy, all the code needed is here
18:46 rubenwardy Just because it's not fool proof doesn't mean it's not needed
18:46 Calinou yes
18:46 Calinou it is possible to have a GUID-like system, Xonotic does that for its stats system.
18:46 Calinou it is useful.
18:46 rubenwardy However, I don't know if I like the idea
18:46 Calinou but don't think it's reliable for banning
18:47 RealBadAngel est31, do you dare or not?
18:48 Fixer please, no pankbaster
18:49 RealBadAngel chicken :)
18:52 RealBadAngel but seriously, somebody please implement Lua join(rejoin) to the server
18:52 rubenwardy What do you mean?
18:52 rubenwardy redirect, or reconnect?
18:52 Fixer yes, without even unloading everything
18:52 Fixer reconnect
18:52 RealBadAngel merge all the servers
18:53 VanessaE_ you mean like linking books in MC?
18:53 RealBadAngel by walkin thru gate or somethin like that
18:53 RealBadAngel i mean literally merge all the servers into one big web
18:54 RealBadAngel thx to the connections between them
18:54 VanessaE_ right
18:54 Fixer you connect to server it has big tablo with signs that has server info, you punch some and connect to it
18:54 RealBadAngel how to enter the gate is not a problem
18:55 VanessaE_ I guess I meant portals anyway
18:55 VanessaE_ linking book is some other game
18:55 Fixer yes
18:55 RealBadAngel we need reconnect (and failback) funtions
18:55 VanessaE_ it's a good idea
18:55 RealBadAngel we can define rules later on
18:55 RealBadAngel like what player can carry
18:56 VanessaE_ by default, nothing
18:56 VanessaE_ (I would hope)
18:56 RealBadAngel we can have rich mine worlds, just building ones
18:56 RealBadAngel you would like to visit rich world
18:57 RealBadAngel just to dig a lot
18:57 Fixer we heading in wrong direction
18:57 Fixer are
18:58 RealBadAngel with this idea?
18:58 Fixer we need celeron55 finished farmap to unblock the development
18:58 Calinou farmap is overrated.
18:58 Calinou just optimize generic block rendering further
18:58 VanessaE_ farmap is useful but other stuff needs done with it
18:58 Calinou then players can increase their view distance to match's Minecraft
18:58 VanessaE_ like that ^^^
18:58 Calinou (which is pretty far by default)
18:58 RealBadAngel farmesh is something to improve your view
18:58 Calinou I remember when I played Minecraft in 2010, I was amazed by the default "far" view distance
18:58 Fixer yes, but celeron55 asked no touch that stuff until farmap is ready, and farmap branch is 14 days old now
18:59 VanessaE_ if celeron55 isn't going to finish farmap soon, then the other rendering code needs improved.
18:59 RealBadAngel connecting all the worlds is something different
18:59 VanessaE_ RealBadAngel: I think he means that distance rendering is needed so that a given server appears sufficiently far into the distance?
18:59 RealBadAngel its gonna affect the gameplay and community
18:59 Fixer celeron55, hi, any news on farmap, when will it be finished?
18:59 RealBadAngel not just what one folk can see on the monitor
18:59 Fixer RealBadAngel, no it is not
19:00 Fixer RealBadAngel, it is just ingame server browser
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19:00 Fixer RealBadAngel, we have lots of server but few players actually
19:00 RealBadAngel fixer, u got it wrong, totally
19:00 RealBadAngel i meant INGAME
19:00 Calinou could we experiment with defaulting to dedicated_server_step = 0.05?
19:00 Calinou it could result in more responsive gameplay
19:00 Calinou I've set that on my Hunger Games server
19:00 Fixer RealBadAngel, like in MC?
19:01 RealBadAngel Calinou, nrzkt set it to 0.005
19:01 RealBadAngel 0.025
19:01 Calinou well if you have spare CPU, that can be OK
19:01 Calinou but why not default to 0.05? my single-core server does well with that
19:01 RealBadAngel Fixer,mc doesnt have connected world
19:01 VanessaE_ Calinou: throw playlife + biome_lib at it.
19:01 rubenwardy What is it that limits Minetest to ~20 players before lag?
19:01 VanessaE_ that's a good way (imho) to test globalstep speeds.
19:02 RealBadAngel i mean smooth transitons from one server to another
19:02 Calinou VanessaE_, maybe mods could apply a factor to the server step
19:02 rubenwardy plantlife?
19:02 RealBadAngel without exiting to the menu
19:02 Calinou so that, as soon as heavy mods are installed, the server step is doubled (halved FPS)
19:02 RealBadAngel just stepping the gate
19:02 VanessaE_ rubenwardy: I've had as many as 40 on one of my servers without significant lag.  it's all in the network performance really
19:02 VanessaE_ rubenwardy: yeah, because biome_lib by itself doesn't do anything useful.
19:02 Fixer RealBadAngel, that is sooo far ahead, you should better polish PR 3166 that will bring hope to many
19:03 RealBadAngel Fixer, damn, this idea is far simpler to make
19:03 Fixer RealBadAngel, and occlusion culing per block
19:03 RealBadAngel lol
19:03 rubenwardy VanessaE_, you said playlife
19:03 RealBadAngel and what? fix irrlicht?
19:03 RealBadAngel :)
19:03 VanessaE_ rubenwardy: shit. :)
19:03 Fixer yes!11
19:04 VanessaE_ RealBadAngel: "Stay on target.  Stay on target!"
19:04 Calinou would it possible to do occlusion culling on GPU?
19:04 RealBadAngel i do have my own targets
19:04 Calinou using hardware occlusion queries
19:04 RealBadAngel but YOU dont have any
19:04 Fixer RealBadAngel, occlusion is working on per 8*8*8 blocks basis, somewhere on wiki i've seen it needs to be made per each block to improve (maybe celeron wrote it idn)
19:05 VanessaE_ Fixer: it needs to be done on a per-NODE basis I think.
19:05 Fixer yes
19:05 VanessaE_ let the damn GPU do its job
19:05 Fixer per node
19:05 RealBadAngel fixer, im coding candies, rarely something other :P
19:05 Fixer RealBadAngel, candies slow down everything
19:05 RealBadAngel ofc
19:05 RealBadAngel there are no free candies :P
19:05 Fixer smth is wrong with MT
19:05 Fixer too much lags
19:06 Fixer everybody is complaining
19:06 Fixer it is an issue
19:06 Calinou per-node is probably too much, even if on the GPU
19:06 RealBadAngel 3166 is something about it
19:06 Fixer lag or low fps
19:06 Calinou Fixer, yeah, even my new laptop doesn't run Minetest that fast
19:06 VanessaE_ Calinou: per mapblock then
19:06 RealBadAngel but nobody is willing to help me with that
19:06 Calinou there should be a release dedicated to otpimization…
19:06 Calinou both server and client
19:06 VanessaE_ anyway something other than some huge quantity
19:07 VanessaE_ Calinou: 0.4.14 was supposed to be bugfix + optimization release.
19:07 Calinou VanessaE_, well for a start, occlusion culling could be toggleable on client
19:07 VanessaE_ that was the plan but I guess that got thrown out already
19:07 Calinou so that we can see if it actually helps (it might not)
19:07 Fixer it is not even 0.4.13.1 right now :}
19:07 Fixer i lied somewhat
19:08 rubenwardy #3166
19:08 VanessaE_ https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3166
19:08 VanessaE_ Send to clients only changed node metadata instad of whole mapblock
19:08 rubenwardy ah
19:09 rubenwardy thats still not done?
19:09 VanessaE_ nope.  RealBadAngel needs help with it.
19:09 Fixer RealBadAngel, let me view dozens of programming lectures, read python book, c++ book, lua book, and maybe I will help somehow (in this century)... or not :p accountant is too damb for that (actually not)
19:10 Calinou I'd like Minetest to get a fancy UI
19:10 rubenwardy samn
19:10 Calinou Doomsday has awesome UI, made using Qt 5
19:10 rubenwardy * same
19:10 Fixer please fix bugs, make fancy later
19:11 Fixer it is slow as snail
19:11 rubenwardy true
19:11 Fixer it is very slow
19:11 rubenwardy but part of fixing formspecs and HUD is making the UI better
19:11 Fixer MC can handle 100 of players
19:11 Fixer MT becames slow with >10 players
19:11 exio4 \o/
19:11 rubenwardy hudkit mades hud bearable
19:11 VanessaE MC has the advantage that it spreads the load too
19:11 rubenwardy but still not
19:11 rubenwardy good
19:11 exio4 this works
19:12 VanessaE I've been told that the CPU usage on any given machine or server is all spread out across all connected machines, like some sort of basic clustering.
19:12 exio4 Calinou: you were the one saying "boost is nice, wth are we not using C++11?" right
19:12 exio4 VanessaE: er, what, that must be really new
19:12 Fixer when someone goes to explore in multiplayer server starts to lag for everybody
19:12 VanessaE exio4: my info may be wrong.  it's just something I recall reading somewhere.
19:12 exio4 as far as I know the last stable release of minecraft doesn't do that
19:12 exio4 latest*
19:13 VanessaE hm.  wonder where I got that from then
19:13 exio4 minetest should be rewritten
19:13 exio4 it is a lot of work
19:14 exio4 but people have been fighting with the current code for like 2 years
19:14 exio4 dont they realize it's insane to keep going on that?
19:14 VanessaE who's gonna rewrite it?
19:14 VanessaE that's not just a "lot" of work, it's an insane amount.
19:15 exio4 let's see how much we can get with donations and hire some of the current devs?
19:15 VanessaE that's been done.  the answer is "nowhere".
19:15 exio4 i didnt know about that one
19:15 Calinou http://archive.hugo.pro/doomsday-ui.webm
19:15 exio4 VanessaE: let's consider this though
19:16 Calinou (this is Doomsday Engine)
19:16 exio4 VanessaE: how `much` work is it to fix the current bugs?
19:16 Calinou it likes to use fancy transitions for sure :p
19:16 Fixer better hope that irrlicht will not die some day... it is already in a hospital
19:16 VanessaE exio4: I couldn't give you a figure, but "a fuckton" might be close.
19:16 Calinou Fixer, Urho3D could be used for a rewrite :P
19:16 exio4 VanessaE: so you're comparing two insane-level amounts of work
19:17 VanessaE Calinou: wasn't c55 targeting that for his buildat thing?
19:17 Fixer Calinou, i will start the rewrite, will be finished close to "heat death of the universe"
19:18 VanessaE exio4: the way I've seen people talk around here, fixing all of the bugs would be more work than a total rewrite, which would be more work than rewriting, let's say, The GIMP. :P
19:18 Fixer and now Zeno has quit and we stuck on irrlicht
19:18 VanessaE I think the real problem is just time.
19:18 VanessaE no one has any
19:18 exio4 time = money
19:18 Fixer yes
19:18 exio4 we thus, need money
19:18 VanessaE exio4: fuck that
19:19 VanessaE I refuse to believe that
19:19 Fixer development is so slow here, look how many PRs out there
19:19 Calinou VanessaE, yes, he used Urho3D for it
19:19 Calinou it's pretty decent IMO
19:19 VanessaE time = money if, and only if, you would otherwise spend that time making money at your job or something.
19:19 Calinou comes with AngelScript, or Lua scripting
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19:20 VanessaE if that time would otherwise be spent in some leisure activity, it does NOT euqate to money!
19:20 VanessaE equate*
19:20 Fixer people has very few time to review PRs
19:20 rubenwardy If you paid the devs so they could work on MT, instead of their (old) job
19:21 exio4 they'd need to accept a not-insane salary though :P
19:21 VanessaE define "not insane"
19:21 Fixer like few dollars per month (from donations)
19:21 Fixer $)
19:21 VanessaE seems the going rate for a good coder is around $150k a year now
19:21 Calinou $150k? wow
19:21 exio4 nah, the idea is to first get the donations, then see how much we get
19:21 exio4 VanessaE: that's an american-salary
19:21 VanessaE 50-60k/year if you're just "so so"
19:21 RealBadAngel what are you talkin about?
19:21 Calinou yeah, usually developers refuse getting less than $50k
19:22 VanessaE Calinou: yeah, it's ridiculous.
19:22 exio4 VanessaE: which, compared to pretty much every other country on earth, is insanely high
19:22 RealBadAngel you mean all those yrs of coding stuff was for money?
19:22 rubenwardy ofc
19:22 Fixer developers got very good salaries in East Europe, others just work for food *cough*
19:22 RealBadAngel i do work just for food
19:22 VanessaE RealBadAngel: an old, stupid americanism.  "Time is money."
19:23 rubenwardy You could make it enough for a part time job, alongside another one
19:23 RealBadAngel but i dont care
19:23 Fixer VanessaE, but it works
19:23 Fixer VanessaE, runs the economy
19:23 VanessaE Fixer: it works if you're a greedy bastard :P
19:23 RealBadAngel my "real" life is coding
19:23 VanessaE "YOu mean I've only been a capitalist for four hours and I already owe $10,000 ??"  "That's what makes our system work -- everybody owes everybody."
19:24 VanessaE (might have botched the quote.  from the movie "One, Two, Three")
19:24 exio4 it's easy, if I want to live with certain standard of living, you need money, one way to get money legally is to work, you thus decide to work, and you spend time on something, for a monetary recompensation
19:24 RealBadAngel its just a point in my timeline when i gen fire up browser, check the forums
19:24 VanessaE exio4: yes, TO A POINT.
19:24 RealBadAngel see what was done
19:24 exio4 VanessaE: capitalism is what the US has given to the world! you should be proud of it!
19:24 RealBadAngel and see if i can do anything more
19:24 VanessaE there's a point beyond which working for money is useless (even in the face of the extra income)
19:25 exio4 yes, obviously
19:25 exio4 you won't hire somebody at random
19:26 RealBadAngel hiring somebody to do hobby work is kinda pointless
19:26 RealBadAngel you will offecnce all the ones doing it for free
19:27 exio4 whatever, I wouldn't feel offended if somebody is being paid to do the nasty work =)
19:28 RealBadAngel nasty work could be made if folk start to cooperate
19:28 RealBadAngel no need for extra payment
19:28 RealBadAngel just a simple kick in the ass ;)
19:28 VanessaE I make my stuff for free because I want to make stuff people will find useful.  Good legacy, I think.
19:29 Fixer exio4, it has its faults, but it works, don't ask me about communist regimes, my country lost millions of people because of it (capitalism with some state regulation is good, law and order must be supported though).
19:29 exio4 VanessaE: how do you spend your time?
19:29 VanessaE (even when I sell hardware, others are welcome to make those things themselves too)
19:29 VanessaE exio4: most of the time? reading or watching movies.
19:29 RealBadAngel Fixer, whats ur nationality btw?
19:29 Fixer ukrainian
19:29 exio4 VanessaE: ok, I mean, how do you get your money?
19:29 RealBadAngel pretty close, im polish
19:30 VanessaE exio4: I am disabled.
19:30 VanessaE (so, federal money)
19:30 Fixer just avoid totalitarian leftist regimes... it sucked too much blood from people
19:30 RealBadAngel fixer, do you know we were one country once?
19:30 VanessaE when I worked, it varied.  labor of some kind usually.  customer service.  did sysadmin work for a while too (not that good at it though, at the time).
19:31 Fixer RealBadAngel, we all changed countries a lot of times, our nation is finally free and independent from Ussr/Russia
19:31 Fixer but it is offtopic
19:31 exio4 VanessaE: ok, that explains your position, nvm
19:31 VanessaE JohnnyComeL8ly: it was.  now it's #capitalist-bitch-session
19:31 exio4 Fixer: any extreme is bad
19:31 VanessaE exio4: when I was working, the same rule applied.
19:32 exio4 (iow, the US and the USSR are bad!)
19:33 Fixer i don't want to live in that
19:33 VanessaE Fixer: unless you say the wrong thing to the wrong person. then expect to have your life financially ruined, here.
19:34 exio4 let's go with a 5-day week, 120 hours, you spend 30 hours working, 10 doing things directly-related to work, 40 hours spent sleeping, leaves you with 40 hours for fun per 5-day week,, assume you have family / friends, reduced to 10/15 hours per week on anything you want
19:34 VanessaE (jail, not usually so much.  but corps love to sue)
19:35 Fixer VanessaE, that is more USA thing, Europe was always more people oriented
19:35 RealBadAngel old times are a thing to bitch on
19:35 VanessaE Fixer: so I assume
19:35 RealBadAngel now we are independent
19:35 Fixer Europe is somewhat left (socialistic)
19:35 exio4 see, this is why I wanted to move the conversation to the main channel VanessaE :p
19:35 RealBadAngel no matter when we live
19:36 rubenwardy except England
19:36 rubenwardy very right wing
19:36 RealBadAngel now its the time to join the worlds
19:36 RealBadAngel also in mt
19:36 JohnnyComeL8ly This is why ppl freak out about -dev being flooded.... :P
19:36 Fixer sometimes i want more right here, populism in socialism can ruin everything
19:37 exio4 populism is the worst
19:37 rubenwardy I'm willing to offer bounties for features, but I only have finite money, and not everyone is motivated by bounties
19:37 RealBadAngel JohnnyComeL8ly, we are talkin now about the ideas that can change the game
19:37 Fixer populism is what was in Greece and many exUSSR countries
19:37 RealBadAngel each server has a few players
19:38 RealBadAngel we do have 20+ servers
19:38 exio4 rubenwardy: that sounds nicer
19:38 RealBadAngel now lets make new player join
19:38 RealBadAngel he will see 100+ folks
19:38 exio4 rubenwardy: have some central entity to pick up money and then setup bounties on things :P
19:38 RealBadAngel on all the servers
19:39 RealBadAngel snowball effect
19:39 Fixer example, in Ukraine heating cost was 5 cent/m^3, while real cost was 9x more, difference was paid by state, there was "cheap" heating for people and costly for enterprises. That was proven to be a disaster
19:39 Fixer state incurret HUGE loss
19:39 Fixer 100 of billion just on heating
19:39 Fixer that kind of economy will ruin everything
19:40 Fixer now they are moving to real price for all with subsidies for poor people
19:40 Fixer before that subsidies were for all
19:41 Fixer yes, it is development channel, sry, I hope celeron will not ban us this day
19:41 RealBadAngel JohnnyComeL8ly, case is to move development forward
19:41 Fixer but please highlight him, he wanted to finish farmap, maybe he waits for some poke :}
19:41 RealBadAngel candies, farmesh wont get us nowhere
19:41 RealBadAngel but fresh and unique ideas can
19:42 JohnnyComeL8ly Yes.
19:42 Fixer nobody will code it anyway
19:42 Fixer :}
19:42 RealBadAngel Fixer, code for that is already in the engine
19:42 JohnnyComeL8ly I think that the game should be simplified before it is advanced.
19:42 RealBadAngel you are using it each time you join the server
19:42 Fixer minetest lags... it add to my depression
19:42 Fixer adds*
19:43 RealBadAngel lags, srags or whatever
19:43 RealBadAngel shit happens
19:43 Fixer first you need responsiveness boost
19:43 RealBadAngel its your shit and get used to it
19:43 Fixer lol, yes
19:43 RealBadAngel at least you can yell at others
19:44 RealBadAngel its your sandbox :)
19:44 Fixer liquid bugs are horrible please fix!!1
19:44 Fixer that hanging water columns...
19:44 Fixer they are on every server
19:44 JohnnyComeL8ly MT isn't responsible for infrastructure... it is too bad not everyone is able to just connect to the same lan....
19:44 JohnnyComeL8ly That would be awesome!
19:44 RealBadAngel not the same lan
19:45 RealBadAngel all the servers around and you can WALK to join another
19:45 RealBadAngel thats the point
19:46 JohnnyComeL8ly Yeah!
19:46 RealBadAngel server admins can set up gates, with rules
19:46 RealBadAngel in no time we can have all connected
19:46 Fixer look at LinuxGaming2 server, after moving to other VPS and to 0.4.13 it has huge max_lag from time to time, and admin can't mitigate it (mod profilier is too hard for him)
19:47 est31 joined #minetest-dev
19:47 Fixer and I get up to 15 fps in stable (thats without technic or mesecons iirc)
19:47 Fixer in spawn*
19:48 Calinou some people just use too many mods
19:49 VanessaE "too many mods" really shouldn't affect FPS
19:49 Fixer they have only 79 mods that are quite simple
19:49 VanessaE especially if those mods are on some remote server.
19:50 exio4 entities have to be rendered by the client
19:50 VanessaE (the wrong *choice* of mods can, such as that ^^^)
19:50 exio4 and nodes need to be known by the client too
19:50 * Fixer .oO(also ... Inventory lag problem!)
19:52 est31 well yeah VanessaE is right
19:53 est31 there is only this meta change stuff
19:53 est31 but that shouldnt affect
19:53 * est31 hopes we store GUI outside of meta one day
19:53 RealBadAngel est31, meta stuff is affecting developed servers a lot
19:54 RealBadAngel more than you can imagine
19:54 est31 well yeah, this has to be fixed
19:55 RealBadAngel it can be fixed, with some help
19:55 RealBadAngel ive made most of the work
19:55 VanessaE hence #3166...
19:55 RealBadAngel and i dont mean here whities comments
19:55 VanessaE I still say merge it now and fix the double-send glitch later.
19:55 VanessaE 2 nodes' worth is better than 7 whole mapblocks' worth.
19:56 RealBadAngel sesnding logic is quite fixed
19:56 est31 <VanessaE> I still say merge it now and fix the double-send glitch later.
19:56 RealBadAngel i dont have an idea how to resolve it
19:56 est31 you are the one that cries "stability" dont you?
19:57 RealBadAngel est31, that commit is tested for 2 month already
19:57 Fixer granted fixing lags is not stability issues -_-
19:57 VanessaE est31: I am, but I've tested that code in the past.  it was stable for me, though it didn't offer my as big an improvement as others may see.
19:57 RealBadAngel and it fucking workss
19:57 VanessaE offer me*
19:57 RealBadAngel its a part of epixel
19:57 est31 nrzkt's changes were "tested for 2 months" too, and they introduced tons of regressions either way
19:58 VanessaE est31: fair enough.
19:58 RealBadAngel maybe
19:58 VanessaE but we're gonna get nowhere if no one tests and helps complete the code
19:58 RealBadAngel but that one reduces load a lot
19:58 RealBadAngel think for chirst sake
19:58 est31 RealBadAngel, just fix the bug, its so trivial, and you still dont fix it
19:58 Fixer can developers focus on helping RBA with 3166?
19:58 RealBadAngel bug?
19:58 VanessaE RealBadAngel: the double-send glitch?
19:59 Fixer you should be a team
19:59 est31 and the send-to-completely-remote-clients bug
19:59 est31 which is far worse
19:59 VanessaE oh yeah, I forgot about that one
19:59 RealBadAngel double send glitch is lack of queue
19:59 est31 you stand at spawn, get the metadata changes for the whole fucking server
19:59 est31 double send isnt that much of an issue
19:59 RealBadAngel est31, ah i see
20:00 VanessaE est31: is that a regression?
20:00 est31 VanessaE, yes.
20:00 VanessaE eepo
20:00 RealBadAngel that can be resolved in the same queue
20:00 VanessaE eep*
20:02 RealBadAngel damn, i just cant figure how to make that queue properly
20:02 RealBadAngel this is where im stuck
20:02 RealBadAngel dont u get it?
20:02 est31 hrmmm
20:03 est31 its basically just a bitset, not a queue
20:03 est31 really huge bitset
20:03 RealBadAngel its tick time
20:03 est31 can be done via hashmap I guess.
20:04 RealBadAngel collect all the meta changes, remove duplicates, and send them as list
20:04 RealBadAngel farplayers can be used to remove clients that should not receive the update
20:05 RealBadAngel and just get setBlockNotSent instead
20:05 est31 exactly
20:05 est31 so do it, no queue needed
20:05 RealBadAngel atm 3166 has a single meta change send
20:05 RealBadAngel but it can be a list
20:05 RealBadAngel theres code to process lists
20:06 RealBadAngel so we can bunch them
20:08 RealBadAngel theres a loop already, to process all the events, map update ones
20:08 RealBadAngel far players is declared just before
20:09 RealBadAngel i feel like some of the logic should be made inside this very loop
20:09 RealBadAngel to send blockNotSent
20:10 RealBadAngel and the rest oustide
20:10 RealBadAngel this way i can get rid of far players
20:10 RealBadAngel and maintain compability with older clients at the same time
20:18 VanessaE so what's gonna be?
20:18 VanessaE hem and haw over 3166 or fix it?
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20:23 celeron55 stability comes first; it's the only sane way of doing things based on the experiences this year
20:24 celeron55 i'm really worried again now that hmmmm isn't around again
20:29 VanessaE at least he's around.  we lost zeno (lack of interest)
20:29 celeron55 i know; zeno /msg'd me when he left
20:30 est31 and hmmmm 's at vacation, so he isnt really around either.
20:30 celeron55 he was quite absent anyway for a long time already so it's not very surprising
20:34 celeron55 also yes, my farmap schedule is a train wreck
20:35 celeron55 i just rebased it on upstream/master though so that's somethting
20:35 celeron55 -t
20:37 celeron55 my priority is to get it stable before asking it to be reviewed for merging, and frankly the rule of the last 10% being the another 90% applies here
20:37 VanessaE heh
20:37 celeron55 i'm not going to even pretend otherwise
20:39 celeron55 to those arguing about regular mapblock rendering having to be faster: yeah probably; i'm laying some possible groundwork for doing that when doing this so the future of that isn't probably completely hopeless
20:40 celeron55 GPU-based occlusion culling isn't some kind of magic bullet like some poeple seem to be thinking
20:41 celeron55 urho3d can do it easily and i tested the performance when developing buildat; it's not a trivial solution in voxel environments
20:41 VanessaE celeron55: perhaps not, but can it really be argued that a GPU would be slower at that task than regular software?
20:42 celeron55 you need to take into account the amount of work required for making changes and also the inflexibilities of irrlicht
20:42 VanessaE (assuming a modern, still-supported-by-OEM GPU of course)
20:43 celeron55 the amount of skilled work required*
20:45 Fixer what about per node software oclusion?
20:45 est31 Fixer, that would be against how stuff works currently
20:45 celeron55 per node occlusion culling immediately shows that the person doesn't know what they are talking about
20:46 rubenwardy per node occlusion wouldn't be good, that implies you draw nodes individually
20:46 VanessaE sure it does.  why wipe entires mapblocks of content off the screen if the GPU can render them at a given frame rate?
20:46 VanessaE -s
20:46 Fixer for example, if I stand 50 nodes away from spawn and looking at wall in direction of spawn, my fps goes down a lot
20:47 VanessaE (the converse as stated by fixer applies as well)
20:47 VanessaE maybe calling it "per node" is the wrong way to think of it then
20:50 est31 per node occlusion would make sense, yes, but do it via a vertex shader please.
20:50 VanessaE point is, you've got X number of polys going into the rendering pipeline, and somehow you gotta keep them below Y number of polys for them to render at some given FPS.
20:51 celeron55 VanessaE: your hardware isn't poly-limited; it's almost purely number-of-drawcalls limited at least when VBOs are used
20:51 VanessaE whether you divide them into nodes, mapblocks, or chunks or some other measure, Y needs to be as close as possible to X without distorting your view.
20:51 celeron55 and GPU occlusion culling requires more drawcalls
20:51 RealBadAngel celeron55, whatever you gonna say about occlusion, forcing client to regen meshes for several mapblocks is just wrong
20:51 VanessaE celeron55: ok.  well I'm just being a bit simplistic here, I'm sure you understand.
20:52 RealBadAngel with a single meta change... i mean
20:52 VanessaE of course with MT not using VBO right now...
20:52 celeron55 RealBadAngel: wrong? well it's wrong if you can fix it properly; not otherwise
20:52 VanessaE celeron55: he needs help to fix it.
20:53 RealBadAngel celeron55, its total waste of resources. move somehthing in a chest == regen of 9 mapblocks
20:53 RealBadAngel its your design?
20:54 celeron55 the design is rather KISS; it doesn't special-case anything
20:54 RealBadAngel well that particular KISS KILLS ant complex server...
20:55 RealBadAngel *any
20:57 RealBadAngel celeron55, and thats the problem, once it was chosen to send whole mapblock
20:57 RealBadAngel and it is like that since always
20:57 VanessaE or more to the point, it is detrimental to any client, particularly slow-CPU ones, who is connecting to a complex server.
20:57 RealBadAngel now mods plays a lot with meta
20:57 RealBadAngel entering complex world kills the clients
20:57 celeron55 RealBadAngel: you don't need to talk about it to me
20:58 celeron55 RealBadAngel: so you shouldn't
20:58 RealBadAngel celeron55, so are you aware of how it is important or you just dont care about it?
20:58 celeron55 RealBadAngel: special casing it probably makes sense; it's out of scope for me
20:59 RealBadAngel so dont care, right?
20:59 celeron55 make it, and make it not buggy, and make it compatible and otherwise good too
20:59 celeron55 don't bug me about it
21:00 celeron55 i am not your caretaker
21:01 VanessaE guys, stop..
21:01 RealBadAngel ofc not
21:02 RealBadAngel im just asking here for some help to finish that damn task
21:02 RealBadAngel if i do realize where the problem is it doesnt mean i can code the solution
21:05 celeron55 the thing is, if i dig into it enough to help you, i might just as well just fix the whole thing myself
21:06 celeron55 it's almost the same amount of work, maybe even less
21:06 RealBadAngel most of the work is already done i think
21:06 celeron55 i'll rather use my time to focus on what i last started doing and didn't finish yet
21:07 RealBadAngel ok. i wont push it anymore and will try again to do it on my own
21:07 RealBadAngel peace?
21:09 celeron55 this is not a special occasion; this is generally the case when people ask for help; and yes, i don't hold a grudge about this if you understand this
21:09 sfan5_ joined #minetest-dev
21:10 RealBadAngel celeron55, ok
21:15 JohnnyComeL8ly joined #minetest-dev
21:26 RealBadAngel celeron55, on your farmesh code youre using VBO, have you found a reliable way to make sure that unused meshes got deleted?
21:28 RealBadAngel thats raher important question, moving mapblock meshes to hw buffers doubles the framerate
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21:31 celeron55 at least it never re-creates the meshes in the way mapblock meshes are completely re-created
21:31 celeron55 but i'm not sure if it has the same problem or not
21:31 RealBadAngel if they got uploaded theyre stored
21:32 RealBadAngel so the same problem
21:33 RealBadAngel youre usin  static flag, meaning uploading once
21:34 celeron55 it would seem that if nothing else works, creating a VBO mesh pool would work, because irrlicht will update them in-place when you mark them dirty (i mean, god help us if it even then creates a duplicate (it won't))
21:34 celeron55 there's also IVideoDriver::removeHardwareBuffer
21:34 RealBadAngel we were playin already with VBO code
21:35 RealBadAngel flushing the buffers was the problem
21:35 celeron55 what does "flushing the buffers" even mean?
21:36 RealBadAngel clear the GPU memory used? idk, VBO idea was killed because of it
21:36 Supertanker2 joined #minetest-dev
21:37 VanessaE celeron55: in the old code, over time outdated VBO entries would pile up as mapblocks are changed, and never get cleared out
21:37 VanessaE effectively creating a memory leak
21:37 celeron55 yes i know that was the diagnosis back then
21:38 celeron55 and it will happen now too if you enable VBOs AFAIK
21:38 RealBadAngel you did
21:38 RealBadAngel thats why im askin
21:41 RealBadAngel have you solved memleaks issue with VBO or just put the problem away to be solved later on
21:42 celeron55 checking it is one of the tens of entries on my far map to-do list
21:42 celeron55 it hasn't seemed like a huge issue when i have been testing it though
21:42 celeron55 not sure why, but anyway
21:43 RealBadAngel that issue was here before your farmesh code
21:43 RealBadAngel solution to it could be of great surplus
21:44 RealBadAngel twice fps doesnt walk the street for free ;)
21:45 RealBadAngel celeron55, ive also havent seen any issues when testing VBO push code (i would like to get and see memleaks about it)
21:47 RealBadAngel all the sources i read mentioned forced delete with removeHardwareBuffer after some time (not used, timer or whatever)
21:49 Darcidride joined #minetest-dev
21:49 RealBadAngel if it is problematic, couldnt it be pushed mainstream for more folks to test it?
21:50 RealBadAngel we can always revert single change
21:50 RealBadAngel but feedback is priceless
21:51 celeron55 if you could link said changeset here, it would be helpful
21:51 RealBadAngel it was initially PilzAdam's code
21:52 celeron55 i don't care whose it was or where it originally was; i care where it's available currently
21:52 RealBadAngel he forgert about setting mesh to dirty in animation
21:52 RealBadAngel so it was its visible flaw
21:53 celeron55 many things have changed since then so it might just work for whatever unknown reason now
21:53 RealBadAngel i can prepare quickly a PR with it
21:53 celeron55 like, irrlicht 1.8 could have fixed it
21:53 celeron55 or whatever
21:53 RealBadAngel thats a few liners
21:54 VanessaE https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/tree/vbo
21:54 VanessaE last two commits in that branch by the look of it
21:55 RealBadAngel ah, he really introduced the timer
21:55 celeron55 if you make a PR, label it as "request for testing, not for merging"; that should give us some information we need
21:55 RealBadAngel from what ive read thats good
21:57 RealBadAngel in this case request for testing should be screamed out loud
21:57 RealBadAngel on every platform
21:57 Obani Guys, I've got a problem
21:57 celeron55 a windows build could be made possibly
21:57 RealBadAngel oh, NO
21:57 Obani I compiled Minetest with latest commit
21:57 celeron55 i'm sure people will test it if you suggest it might give more FPS 8)
21:57 Obani An got this error at launching http://pastebin.com/M9rQhpqi
21:57 Obani (I cannot launch the game because of a segmentation error)
21:58 RealBadAngel celeron55, it doubles the fps, believe me
21:58 celeron55 RealBadAngel: tell it to testers
21:58 RealBadAngel oke doke, i will
21:59 Fixer i will test it, just give me windows binary
21:59 nrzkt Fix should be backported to current minetest
22:00 RealBadAngel not yet, hold on please. maybe tommorow
22:00 nrzkt using the branch as is is not a test :)
22:00 JohnnyComeL8ly Fixer, use Linux... that is the best way to test.
22:00 RealBadAngel celeron55, i do have another question: https://github.com/Jeija/mi​netest/tree/clientside_mods
22:01 RealBadAngel why that was not in?
22:01 RealBadAngel asking because i do need that funcionality
22:01 RealBadAngel at least on startup
22:02 RealBadAngel you have mentioned lately client side mods
22:03 Obani "Audio: Vorbis extension NOT present"
22:03 Obani What does it mean ?
22:04 Obani A missing package ?
22:04 Obani lib ?
22:04 JohnnyComeL8ly Maybe you didn't compile with Vorbis support....
22:04 JohnnyComeL8ly Yes, something like that.
22:04 Obani ok...
22:04 JohnnyComeL8ly Didn't you install all the deps?
22:05 Obani ???
22:05 Obani It crashes becaus ether is no main_menu music ? 0.o
22:05 JohnnyComeL8ly No.
22:06 JohnnyComeL8ly What did you install?
22:06 RealBadAngel main menu file can show you just a warning
22:06 RealBadAngel cannot be a reason to crash
22:06 JohnnyComeL8ly The exact same list as in https://github.com/minetest/mi​netest/blob/master/README.txt
22:07 Obani Look, it as been working for 3 years
22:07 Obani Why should it crash now ? xD
22:09 JohnnyComeL8ly Obani... did you install all the deps?
22:09 Obani I'm doing it right now
22:09 Obani Some were added :p
22:09 Obani (since last time)
22:09 JohnnyComeL8ly Well, that could be our problem.
22:11 Obani Let's recompile it... yay !
22:12 JohnnyComeL8ly I'm excited too.
22:15 RealBadAngel celeron55, whats your word on jeija's PR ?
22:17 Obani Still got the same errors
22:17 Obani After installing the depencies and recompiling
22:18 JohnnyComeL8ly Did you do a complete rebuild or were there things that didn't get rebuilt?
22:19 JohnnyComeL8ly Obani ^^
22:19 Obani I did a complet rebuilt
22:19 Obani complete*
22:19 Obani JohnnyComeL8ly, yes ?
22:20 JohnnyComeL8ly I'm not able to explain it properly, but there are things that are built before it is all tied together, and some of those things might be "old"
22:21 Obani JohnnyComeL8ly, I should reclone the git repository ?
22:22 rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev
22:29 JohnnyComeL8ly Obani, I'm thinking more about the  git clean -xf  cmd
22:29 Obani too late
22:29 Obani already compiling
22:29 JohnnyComeL8ly Oh, well.
22:44 Obani Still doesn't work
22:46 Obani (And still same errors)
22:48 JohnnyComeL8ly Try getting a completely fresh clone... I don't know for sure how to get a clean source.
22:48 RealBadAngel make new folder
22:48 JohnnyComeL8ly (So that is what gives 'til somebody helps)
22:48 RealBadAngel and grab the sources
22:49 RealBadAngel unzip them there
22:49 RealBadAngel and make sure youre compiling with -DRUN_IN_PLACE=1
22:50 RealBadAngel this ways each folder you will get working mt
22:51 Obani RealBadAngel, still doesn't work
22:51 RealBadAngel paste bin output you get
22:51 Obani Already did it
22:51 Obani It was this http://pastebin.com/M9rQhpqi
22:51 Obani (I used --trace
22:53 RealBadAngel skip trace
22:54 Obani lol
22:54 Obani Ok xD
22:54 RealBadAngel idk just a guess
22:54 Obani Loaded texture: /home/obani/minetest/games/m​inetest_game/menu/header.png
22:54 Obani :D
22:56 Obani (no offense to you, I just tell that I have those same errors since some hours)
22:58 JohnnyComeL8ly I'm gonna switch to Xubuntu and try a fresh compile.
22:59 RealBadAngel Obani,  i cant see any errors just warnings
23:00 Obani Yes, I noticed that
23:00 VanessaE current HEAD builds and runs fine for me on xubuntu 15.10.
23:00 VanessaE sound too.
23:01 RealBadAngel maybe deps then
23:01 Obani I'm not on xubuntu
23:01 Obani NO IT'S NOT DEPS
23:01 VanessaE it still may be, if some lib is too old or too new for MT to use.
23:02 Obani sorry night affects me
23:02 Obani VanessaE, So MT is not abled to work on Debian stable
23:02 RealBadAngel are you a vampire or what? :P
23:02 VanessaE Obani: I could easily go check that...
23:03 VanessaE clone...
23:03 RealBadAngel github check will fail then....
23:04 VanessaE building...
23:04 RealBadAngel obani can you pastebin output of cmake . -DRUN_IN_PLACE=1  ?
23:05 Obani RealBadAngel, do I have to recompile it again ?
23:05 VanessaE no probs compiling.
23:05 RealBadAngel delete cmakecache.txt
23:05 RealBadAngel and call cmake again
23:05 VanessaE (not gonna run it though, too lazy to set up a proper test environ)
23:06 Obani http://pastebin.com/SjG0daMP
23:06 Obani Ah
23:06 Obani ok wait
23:07 RealBadAngel VanessaE, btw have you saw mt logo as mesh?
23:07 VanessaE no
23:07 Obani RealBadAngel, here it is http://pastebin.com/1szuA5vi
23:09 RealBadAngel Obani, now compile it again and log please
23:09 VanessaE lgtm
23:09 RealBadAngel VanessaE, it was posted on the forums lately
23:09 VanessaE RealBadAngel: link?
23:10 Obani VanessaE, WIP mods
23:11 RealBadAngel im still lookin, some weird place it was
23:12 RealBadAngel https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=9&amp;t=7034
23:12 RealBadAngel yeah
23:13 RealBadAngel the problem is the model is textured somehow weird
23:13 VanessaE ah
23:13 RealBadAngel i need the mesh as an obj and with texture
23:14 RealBadAngel i want it to spin in main menu, in the background
23:14 Obani This model ?
23:14 Obani That would look a bit weird IMO
23:15 RealBadAngel and yes, i do have code for meshes in the formspecs
23:15 VanessaE RealBadAngel: pulling from the textures the current texture pack uses, I hope ;)
23:15 * VanessaE imagines an HDX version of that logo
23:16 RealBadAngel main menu should be something bigger than hard to point set of burried options
23:17 RealBadAngel what we do have atm is nothing like a main should look like
23:17 Obani I agree with that, but a single mesh turning in the background would look a bit special ^^
23:18 RealBadAngel Obani, im a demoscene coder
23:18 RealBadAngel leave that to me, please
23:18 Obani BUT
23:19 VanessaE no buts :)
23:19 Obani a 3d land like MT mesh with animated things on it looping would be cool ;)
23:19 Obani But much more difficult to make :p
23:19 RealBadAngel i havent said that mesh will be everthin
23:19 RealBadAngel i said i just need it
23:20 Obani Also, what are the plans for graphical enhancements on MT ?
23:20 RealBadAngel client side mods
23:21 Obani "graphical"
23:21 RealBadAngel before that you can try server side ones
23:21 RealBadAngel like water or lava
23:21 Obani client-side mods : mods are requested by server and then used by client ?
23:25 Obani RealBadAngel, still the same http://pastebin.com/3XkKtk3s
23:26 RealBadAngel Obani, client side mods means, chosen by client and server indenpenent
23:27 RealBadAngel like texture packs
23:27 VanessaE RealBadAngel: it also means server sends mod code to be run on the client.
23:27 Obani RealBadAngel, so that would enable cheat ?
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23:28 RealBadAngel for starters i think once executed mods, on startup should be enough
23:28 RealBadAngel just to modify nodedefs
23:29 RealBadAngel security is another problem and i dont have any opinion on that atm, not my focus
23:29 TeTpaAka joined #minetest-dev
23:30 RealBadAngel jeija's proof of concept allows dtime run mods
23:31 Obani Well, add a server security in MT.conf would be the first step
23:31 RealBadAngel i really wonder why that code went unnoticed for 2 yrs
23:31 Obani enable_mods = default wool fire ... ...
23:32 RealBadAngel Obani, i wont talk about securtity, i do care only what i can alter client side regarding rendering
23:32 RealBadAngel i do need that code for client side shaders
23:33 RealBadAngel what ive coded water and lava shaders propably wont go in into main repo
23:33 nrzkt VanessaE i think first step is only customizing things like gui, it's better to have a separated world first time before having an API permitting to hack every client without restriction :p
23:34 RealBadAngel its much of an artistic vision than a voxel one, so i need to make a way clients use it on their choice
23:34 RealBadAngel client side modding is just a proper way to achieve that goal
23:35 RealBadAngel and not only me will use it
23:35 TeTpaAka Is there anyone around who could help me with https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2738 ?
23:36 RealBadAngel make Taoki test it
23:37 RealBadAngel hes the one to wash it out
23:37 TeTpaAka I don't know if he tested it. I already showed it to him and he commented on it.
23:38 RealBadAngel commented that he would love it to have
23:38 RealBadAngel make him test it actually
23:38 RealBadAngel Creatures mod will benefit that change a lot
23:39 RealBadAngel also players crouching too
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23:39 TeTpaAka That would be out of scope for the pull
23:39 RealBadAngel but will allow that
23:39 TeTpaAka And the pull works, that is not the problem
23:39 TeTpaAka The problem is the hackiness of the code
23:40 TeTpaAka It enlarges a problem of the positioning of the player
23:40 TeTpaAka The player model has an offset to the mob models
23:40 TeTpaAka It doesn't stand on (0, 0, 0) has that point in the chest area.
23:40 RealBadAngel if it works as intended thats not a hack
23:40 RealBadAngel just a black magic ;)
23:41 TeTpaAka The problem is, that for the mod programmer it is completely opaque, why he needs to offset the player model when he uses the same model as for mods
23:42 TeTpaAka Ideally he would use the same models
23:42 TeTpaAka But this would break every existing mod that relies on these features.
23:42 RealBadAngel docuemnt the differences
23:42 RealBadAngel and mark whats needed as TODO
23:42 TeTpaAka I didn't introduce any differences. These differences already exist.
23:43 RealBadAngel so mark them
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