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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-09-24

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:34 eugd so, what changes should I be making to https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3199 ?
00:34 eugd restore default setting as a master control
00:35 eugd and someone said something about giving positive and negative axis different values... not sure i see much point in that really
00:35 eugd possibly even desirable to keep sectors 'centered' (as much as they are, which is not really at all) around zero
00:37 est31 still wondering about the use case
00:39 eugd hold on
00:43 eugd as i said before i want to use it for future things especially adding a 'loop' option
00:44 eugd whereby the world will seamless loop back on itself to give the illusion of a spherical world
00:44 eugd http://i.imgur.com/NqXvAKy.png
00:44 est31 also for y?
00:44 eugd it would be possible
00:45 eugd basically it just gives more control
00:45 eugd just another option for users
00:45 est31 options should be useful
00:46 eugd it permits the creation of non-cubic worlds, is the essence
00:46 eugd will be essential for looping but probably would have other uses
00:46 est31 I know what the code does
00:49 est31 btw does the patch respect the new setting as c55 asked?
00:49 est31 err the old one
00:49 est31 does it respect the old setting
00:50 est31 e.g. you say limit_x = MYMIN(limit,limit_x)
00:51 eugd not yet
00:51 eugd i was asking for more input, if anything else was needed
00:51 est31 that would be needed
00:51 eugd yeah
00:51 eugd makes sense
00:52 eugd i think i may be making a mistake in my implementation, now
00:52 eugd but i need to get it uploaded in like 5 min or it's gonna wait till tomorrow
00:53 est31 no need for rushing it
00:56 eugd yeah
00:56 eugd it's not gonna happen
00:56 eugd tonight anyway
00:56 eugd not sure about my types here
00:57 eugd before i was just multiplying what had existed
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00:57 est31 they should be static
00:57 est31 if they arent static, they are read each time
00:57 est31 and reading settings is slow
00:57 est31 therefore, its better to cache them
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02:38 eugd is there a way to change pull request or do i just have to close it and make a new one?
02:39 asl97 define change
02:41 eugd update? new/different commits. they're the same files but with different changes.
02:42 asl97 as in how you want to change the pull request
02:42 eugd oh, right
02:43 eugd https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3199
02:43 eugd i think i have it right to maintain the old setting
02:43 eugd which was celeron55s request before adding it
02:43 eugd can't actually build to test but it's pretty dead simple
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02:46 asl97 what do you mean by change pull request?
02:47 asl97 add more commit?  remove them?  merge them?
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15:41 hmmmm celeron55:  are you around?  I was wondering more about the EmergeThread, like for example why there needs to be an option to disallow generation
15:44 celeron55 that's there so that the server can opportunistically send blocks from longer distances to clients if they happen to exist, but to save resources by not generating them too far
15:45 celeron55 it's definitely a useful feature
15:45 hmmmm all under the presumption that disk access is faster than generation though, no?
15:46 celeron55 i don't think the database should need to access disk in order to check whether a mapblock exists
15:47 hmmmm well that's a database dependent detail
15:47 celeron55 maybe it does, i don't know
15:47 celeron55 maybe you can't assume either way
15:47 celeron55 hmmmm: anyway, currenetly if a block is generated, it will also be saved on disk
15:47 hmmmm i was going to add a splay filter or skip list or some sort of interesting data structure for the purpose of knowing block existence before attempting a load
15:47 celeron55 and it will bloat the database
15:48 celeron55 if you make it so that they aren't necessarily saved if a player doesn't come very close to them, then i guess they could be generated
15:49 hmmmm okay, fair enough
15:49 hmmmm but how do you decide whether or not to allow generation?
15:49 celeron55 even then with the heaviest lua generators the current behavior might be preferred
15:49 celeron55 simply by how far the block is from a player
15:50 hmmmm hrmm
15:50 celeron55 max_block_send_distance, max_block_generate_distance
15:50 celeron55 it's directly controlled by those
15:50 celeron55 it's not complicated
15:50 hmmmm should blocks that have been newly added to the environment be generated if not existing on disk?
15:51 hmmmm it's complicated because this parameter is used differently in different places
15:51 celeron55 what are "blocks that have been newly added to the environment"?
15:51 hmmmm blocks that somehow got added, but are not yet activated
15:52 hmmmm and are getting activated in the next env step
15:52 celeron55 i guess they should be
15:52 celeron55 altough it will open a new can of wormms with broken mods
15:52 celeron55 worms*
15:52 hmmmm what do you mean
15:53 celeron55 is it possible to set any entity to activate blocks around itself?
15:53 celeron55 or was that even added back then, i have never used it...
15:55 celeron55 actually i don't think it was
15:55 twoelk like technik-anchor maybe?
15:55 celeron55 in that case it means that the only situation where what you just referred to can happen is where the server just hadn't been able to keep up with player positions
15:55 celeron55 or the server is weirdly configured
15:56 celeron55 and eventually the blocks that are being activated will be generated; the server just hasn't gotten to it yet
15:56 celeron55 unless the active block range is larger than max_block_generate_distance which is really kind of an invalid configuration but it isn't checked
15:57 celeron55 hmmmm: so, i mean, i think you'll end up in a fine enough design for it if you just think yourself
15:58 hmmmm to be honest I have no idea
15:58 hmmmm I just want to make sure things aren't totally broken when I get done with it
15:59 celeron55 i'm not sure if anything will actually break if active blocks aren't necessarily generated ones
16:00 celeron55 we might or might not want to allow code to make that assumption, i'm not sure
16:02 celeron55 the problem with implementing that is that you need a new queue of blocks that would have to be active, but aren't because they aren't generated yet, and then the server has to generate them and after that it can actually activate them (and the server doesn't even really know when a block is actually fully generated because some things generate after the actual generation has happened)
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17:17 eugd would appreciate some feedback on https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3199
17:18 eugd re: packaging into v3u16 (or v3s16? i don't think that's right though), and making the required new getter function for settings
17:18 Krock just... where's this going to be used?
17:20 T4im by any subgame concepts, that might require smaller maps?
17:20 Krock can be done with a square map
17:21 eugd use is for something else down the line
17:21 eugd multiple other things
17:21 T4im Krock: perhaps, perhaps not..
17:21 eugd most immediately looping world
17:22 T4im from the top of my head: simulate a big tree for players to live in, you would want more y-map than x/z/ there
17:23 eugd that's the big issue exactly
17:23 Krock https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3199/​files#diff-d9fcb7408652f56a0f66984c0d13d278R643 is there a * BS missing?
17:23 T4im make it a halo/ring around a planet, and you have high x, small y/z
17:23 Krock oh no nvm
17:23 eugd where krock?
17:23 eugd the first one?
17:24 eugd i want to do small worlds but will with appreciable interiors
17:25 Krock No, it's good. Haven't looked exactly
17:25 eugd v3u16 is correct, right? not v3s16 as suggested on that page?
17:25 T4im you will eventually have to squash those commits though :)
17:25 eugd 'squash'?
17:25 T4im and give them a better commit message
17:25 Krock imagine negative lengths
17:25 Krock so, use u16 ;)
17:26 eugd yeah it doesn't make sense as i said there
17:26 eugd the code uses absolute values anyway, checks both - and positive
17:27 T4im squashing means to combine commits that add or change the same thing
17:27 eugd s16 can also store value "31000" and lower
17:27 eugd right?
17:27 eugd T4im how do i do that? that's what I wanted to do to start with
17:27 Krock using _x, _y and _z instead of v3u16 might be confusing because it's actually the width, height and depth
17:28 T4im eugd: may I assume, based on the commit messages, that you have been editing the files through the github web interface?
17:28 eugd yes
17:28 eugd ha
17:28 eugd switching back and forth between linux and windows pcs
17:28 Krock T4im knows the shocking truth behind the commit
17:28 eugd also i know nothing about git anyway
17:29 Krock Git GUI software ftw
17:29 T4im https://try.github.io
17:29 T4im there are also plenty of free ebooks and websites offering tutorials ;)
17:30 Krock Youtube.
17:30 T4im probably too, yes :D
17:31 eugd should i use v3u16 (and make a new 'getter' function in settings.h/settings.cpp) or just use v3s16?
17:31 eugd as far as i can tell they will both work
17:33 eugd well gtg
17:33 eugd please comment on the git page
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17:56 hmmmm eugd:  use v3s16
17:58 Krock <eugd>please comment on the git page
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18:08 paramat hi proller did you ever get this bug in fractal mapgen? https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/3088#issuecomment-134002097 any idea what causes it?
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19:23 red1 is a  mapchunk called a sector in the code?
19:24 Krock line?
19:25 red1 ?
19:27 Krock nvm. No, it's something different because there are functions like: Map::getSectorNoGenerate(v2s16 p)
19:27 Krock and mapchunks require a 3d position
19:28 Krock Sorry, can't tell you more - hopefully it's documented somewhere
19:28 Krock ^ red1
19:30 red1 There used to be a page about how mapblocks are organized   in sectors, but i can't find it
19:30 red1 *on the dev wiki
19:31 red1 nvm
19:31 red1 found it
19:32 red1 what is m_sectors used for?
19:32 red1 I though it was for loading sectors form the map database
19:33 asl97 red1: did you mean this page when you said `found it`?  > http://dev.minetest.net/Core_Architecture
19:33 red1 but there is m_sectors_cache
19:33 red1 asl97
19:33 red1 yes
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20:56 waressearcher2 does minetest's code use some thing deemed unspecified or undefined by the C++ standard ?
20:58 sfan5 what kind of question is that?
21:02 waressearcher2 that is from chapter "6.1 The ISO C++ Standard" from C++ book: "It is worth spending considerable time and effort to ensure that a program does not use some thing deemed unspecified or undefined by the standard. In many cases, tools exist to help do this."
21:03 waressearcher2 for example "unsigned char c1 = 64; is well defined: a char has at least 8 bits and can always hold 64" but "unsigned char c2 = 1256; is implementation-defined: truncation if a char has only 8 bits"
21:04 waressearcher2 "const int size = 4*1024; char page[size]; void f() { page[size+size] = 7; // undefined }",      "Plausible outcomes of this code fragment include overwriting unrelated data and triggering a hard ware error/exception. An implementation is not required to choose among plausible outcomes. Where powerful optimizers are used, the actual effects of
21:04 waressearcher2 undefined behavior can become quite unpredictable. If a set of plausible and easily implementable alternatives exist, a feature is deemed unspecified or implementation-defined rather than undefined."
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21:17 rubenwardy waressearcher2, we aim not to do that, however:
21:18 rubenwardy it may have been missed when reviewing code additions
21:18 rubenwardy following standards is essential to cross platform programs
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23:54 turtleman_ hi, dont know if here is the place to ask. is there a plan to rename "regular" trees to something more interesting?
23:54 turtleman_ i find it weird now that jungle, pine, and acacia trees are common.
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