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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-09-22

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Time Nick Message
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11:53 Krock Are the changed Mapblocks updated instantly or is there some delay?
12:01 nrzkt server side or client side ?
12:15 Krock client side
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17:01 paramat can hmmmm or anyone approve #3194 ? i'm fairly sure it's okay but a quick check would be good
17:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3194 -- Mapnode: Add rotateAlongYAxisFull supporting 24 facedirs by paramat
17:01 Calinou ShadowNinja, merged https://github.com/minetest​/minetest.github.io/pull/32 and now top icon is broken :(
17:02 Calinou I know why, will fix it
17:02 hmmmm paramat, sure I'm looking at it
17:02 hmmmm question though, about the index variable
17:02 hmmmm why is it param2 * 4 + rot exactly?
17:03 Calinou pushed fix
17:05 hmmmm the array size is 24 * 4, but they're broken up into 6 chunks of 16
17:07 hmmmm also it would make me feel better if you made that (param2 % 24) * 4 + rot instead
17:23 paramat no it's 24 chunks of 4, i copied the [24 * 4] format from a lookup table elsewhere. each line is the initial facedir (first value) then the 3 resulting facedirs under rotations 90, 180 and 270 degrees
17:28 paramat the 6 chunks visible are just to separate facedirs 0-3 from 4-7 etc, i copied the format from https://github.com/minetest/minetest/b​lob/master/src/mapblock_mesh.cpp#L706
17:30 paramat okay (param2 % 24) in case higher bits are used for something else, will do
17:40 paramat thanks
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19:41 VanessaE nrzkt: are you aware that the public server list does not work (no content) on the android build currently offered on minetest.net ?
19:41 VanessaE (tick the checkbox, nothing happens - list is empty)
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19:53 paramat now merging 3194
19:56 paramat complete
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20:41 VanessaE wtf?  connection timing out while trying to load a SINGLEPLAYER world?!
20:41 nrzkt VanessaE: no i'm not aware est31 tested the build, i only distribute it.
20:41 VanessaE ok.  well now you're aware :)
20:41 nrzkt since the armv7 change i cannot run minetest anymore on myphone
20:43 VanessaE in my case I was playing around on my S4 phone
20:43 VanessaE the timeout issue I just mentioned is on my PC, though.
20:46 VanessaE ok so apparently I can't start a singleplayer game anymore.
20:47 VanessaE not even a "minimal" world works.
20:48 VanessaE seems to work fine connecting to a remote server.
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20:56 est31 VanessaE, cant reproduce
20:56 est31 engine 1adc7bf5c60830cc8dcbab3
20:56 est31 game: ?? dunno, something outdated
20:56 est31 can you reproduce with minimal game?
20:56 VanessaE [09-22 16:47] <VanessaE> not even a "minimal" world works.
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20:57 VanessaE engine is a56aedb4e
20:57 VanessaE it just sits there "connecting to server..." and eventually times out.
20:58 est31 fatal: ambiguous argument 'a56aedb4e': unknown revision or path not in the working tree.
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20:58 VanessaE it's there, I just re-cloned and recompiled to check.
20:58 est31 ah paramat's commit
20:58 est31 lemme see
20:59 VanessaE only thing I can think of is an ipv6 issue
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20:59 celeron55 that happens on my laptop
20:59 celeron55 i have a setup with multiple local networks and whatever
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21:00 est31 recompiling
21:00 celeron55 before i made it, MT didn't have issues
21:00 waressearcher2 where exactly place in source code that is limits world's size ? or its all around source code and not just one variable ?
21:00 est31 waressearcher2, there are multiple limits
21:00 est31 first there is one for world coordinates
21:00 est31 it cant be changed because its inherent to the type
21:01 celeron55 i think what this network set-up causes is that you can't just listen for UDP packets at "any" and send UDP packets to 127.0.0.1; they don't end up in that listening socket
21:01 est31 then there is a second limit to stop the mapgen reach that first limit and do funny things
21:01 VanessaE of course my box does not respond to "ping6 ::1" (but I dunno if it should)
21:01 celeron55 it will work if i modify MT's source to connect to an explicit local address, in this case something like 192.168.0.5 or whatever
21:01 est31 then there is a limit for objects to get spawned, its set to the same as that mapgen limit
21:02 VanessaE come to think of it, I can't ping 127.0.0.1 either.  must be a config problem on my end.
21:02 est31 also, as player, you can't get into non-generated blocks, so the mapgen limit exists for you as well
21:03 celeron55 (i can ping 127.0.0.1 just fine)
21:03 est31 yeah, even on a56aedb4e I dont have problems
21:03 VanessaE ok looks like I just botched something in my routing.
21:03 celeron55 (and run TCP programs that listen at 0.0.0.0 and connect to them as 127.0.0.1 or "localhost"
21:03 celeron55 )
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21:05 est31 waressearcher2, there is the setting map_generation_limit, does that help you?
21:08 paramat it's because we use s16 (signed 16 bit integers) for world co-ordinates
21:09 waressearcher2 paramat: why not 32 ?
21:10 waressearcher2 est31: yes
21:10 paramat heh
21:10 est31 I guess if we have 32, people will demand for 64
21:10 paramat the discussion to increase world size has been had many times, it's not going to happen =)
21:10 est31 and if we have 64, people will demand 128 etc
21:11 paramat to much work
21:11 waressearcher2 so s16 was choosen on purpose ?
21:11 est31 waressearcher2, some number had to be chosen
21:11 waressearcher2 you could've use s32 but choose s16 on purpose ?
21:11 est31 I think the old world format was somewhat limited to 1000 nodes or so
21:11 est31 so compared to that it was quite an enlargement
21:12 paramat it's just big enough, remember the vertical space for stacked realms
21:13 est31 yeah 30km vertical is really enough
21:13 est31 or even 62
21:13 est31 one idea would be to do it like TBC_x suggested, and to not have absolute coordinates anymore
21:14 waressearcher2 how TBC_x suggested ?
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21:14 VanessaE there, that's sorted.  stupid network manager :-/
21:14 paramat s32 is too big, currently the edge is distant but reachable
21:15 est31 well, we just dont have absolute x,y,z coords anymore
21:15 VanessaE paramat: I've had people tell me they've been way out past +/- 31K on minecrarft before, though I agree that 31/62K for vertical is more than enough
21:15 est31 but instead the position is given relative to a center point
21:15 VanessaE -r
21:15 est31 and ofc there is not just one center point
21:16 est31 so, for example, you divide the map into VAEs of size 62kx62kx62k
21:16 est31 and the moment a player reaches an edge of a VAE, a new VAE is created next to it
21:17 est31 and they are made "attached" so that there are no physics calculations on them
21:17 est31 there would be some need for mapgen magic to blend over between the two
21:17 VanessaE in any case, we should either expand the horizontal limit to some ridiculous amount, or stop using the phrase "near infinite"
21:17 est31 but I guess that would be possible
21:18 paramat yes 'almost infinite' should go
21:18 waressearcher2 paramat: "to much work", consider how much work was done for previous 6 month or a year on minetest, could it be more work than that ? I mean minetest code grows anyway, so why not to implement that is more requested ?
21:18 est31 that idea would bring the mapblock approach to coordinates
21:19 paramat there are much more important things to do, and we are understaffed
21:19 est31 yea understaffed indeed
21:19 paramat and a larger world is not much needed
21:19 waressearcher2 understaffed but not underpaid
21:22 VanessaE some minecrafters will argue that a larger world IS needed. there's other stuff that's needed more, though.
21:22 paramat i consider the smallest dimension of a world more important, MC may be vast horizontally but i consider it much more limited than MT due to world height
21:23 paramat vertical space brings much more interesting things..
21:23 VanessaE indeed, but there's only just so much vertical space people can find a use for
21:23 nrzkt atm using better than u16 is a little bit difficult in core, many concerns
21:24 VanessaE after a couple thousand meters, you've about exhausted what one could do I think.
21:24 VanessaE nrzkt: as I understood it, the biggest concern is how it affects some Lua-facing coordinate hash functions
21:24 est31 yeah
21:24 est31 that would be a problem
21:25 est31 those hashes would need to be stored in userdata
21:25 VanessaE for the code I've written that uses them, it wouldn't affect anything (my code in biome_lib, for example, only cares that there is a unique value, but not how it's hashed)
21:26 est31 well, the problem is that it won't be unique anymore
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21:26 VanessaE it wouldn't be unless you extend the hash format.
21:26 est31 general problem of hashing :)
21:26 est31 yea
21:26 VanessaE what is it now?  z*(4096^2) + y*4096 + x  or some such?
21:26 est31 yea I think so
21:27 est31 and there isnt much space left
21:27 est31 < 20 bits
21:27 VanessaE wait, you're talking about some feature in the map itself?
21:28 VanessaE (or in how it's sent to the client)
21:28 est31 no about the hash
21:28 est31 the hash function outputs a lua number
21:28 est31 and usually its stored as IEEE float
21:28 VanessaE well, I'm talking about internal representation in the engine and how it's passed along to Lua for e.g. the coords-to-hash and related functions
21:29 est31 and floats of this size have a limit of 2 ^ fifty something if you use them as ints
21:29 est31 coords to hash is entirely lua I think
21:29 est31 that isn't the problem
21:30 est31 if we have a position table, its stored as three numbers
21:30 est31 x y z
21:30 est31 all three have each the space of 2^ fifty something
21:31 est31 and only 15 are used
21:31 est31 so lotsa space left there
21:31 est31 but yeah, if we considered 64 bit based positions, there would be a problem
21:32 T4im technically its not a hash function, or the size would not be an issue :P
21:33 est31 yeah just at these small numbers, it is very well possible that a collision occurs
21:33 est31 so not that good of an idea to convert it into a "real" hash function
21:40 VanessaE but what position table are you talking about here, that's my question
21:40 VanessaE if it's something internal to the engine, who cares how it's stored?  change it to something better.  If it's part of the map...well...do the same thing.
21:41 VanessaE i.e. for the map, why be afraid of adding a couple of bytes to something that's gonna compress-away anyhow?
21:41 T4im hash_node_position is also being used as keys in tables, which get serialized
21:41 T4im for example autocrafter
21:41 T4im ;)
21:41 T4im eh sorry I mean tp tubes
21:41 T4im their locations are stored... so are probably nodes of other mods
21:42 est31 VanessaE, the coords of a mapblock aren't compressed
21:42 est31 only its content
21:42 VanessaE est31: what about what the database backend does to it?
21:42 est31 well yeah, that one can indeed do such things
21:43 VanessaE (of course sqlite does nothing in that regard, but leveldb does)
21:44 VanessaE if mods are gonna break, they're gonna break and nothing can really be done to fix that in the engine, but if the map format were to change to accommodate larger coord ranges, what's the big deal?
21:45 VanessaE I mean, it's changed before, what, three times I guess?
21:46 VanessaE and server/client protocol (where it outright breaks) has changed even more
21:46 est31 the problem is that we cant provide mods with a "please do this instead" hint how to stop them breaking
21:46 est31 because there is no better native lua datatype
21:46 est31 none that can store that much data
21:47 VanessaE then introduce a new hashing function that doesn't care about coordinate ranges, and don't worry if the mods break.
21:47 est31 I mean if we really had 32 bit coords, we would need 128 bit integers
21:49 VanessaE I see the problem with the numeric range in Lua though
21:49 VanessaE that just means the hash would have to be returned as a string then.
21:49 VanessaE with a BIG warning somewhere that it has changed.
21:50 T4im it's a fixed index atm, 1:1 based on the size of the map.. there's certainly some way to encode the coordinates a bit "denser"
21:50 VanessaE or new Lua function calls for the purpose, with warnings that the old calls don't return unique values outside the +/-31k range
21:53 VanessaE all I'm saying is that it's not an unsolvable problem.
21:55 est31 agreed
21:57 est31 if we change the format though, we should also consider what to do with VAEs
21:57 est31 eg how to manage those
21:57 VanessaE what is there to even do with them now?  they're vaporware :P
21:58 est31 VanessaE, some people say we should hack around the problem and store them into the "free" space we have thanks to the fact that we stop at 31k and dont go where the data types would allow us to go
21:58 VanessaE fuck no
21:58 VanessaE VAE's ought to be stored as their own entries in the map database.
21:59 est31 Thats my opinion at this as well
21:59 VanessaE trying to use the "free" space at the edges of the map is gonna lead to headaches down the road
21:59 paramat agreed
21:59 VanessaE especially if this same "make the map bigger" argument comes up again
21:59 est31 it will break mods of course
21:59 est31 that has to be kept in mind
22:00 VanessaE fair enough, but you can't break what hasn't been implemented yet
22:00 VanessaE mods don't care where or how data is stored in the map anyway
22:00 est31 ah yeah
22:00 est31 in fact you are right
22:00 est31 it will break mods either way
22:01 est31 just people argue that if you store the blocks in that free space, you already have coords to give them so that you can use existing callbacks for modding on those positions
22:02 est31 that would be an advantage of that approach i admit
22:03 est31 but the more proper solution IMO is to give mods a fourth position argument, or a separate "realm" value.
22:04 paramat wooo 4D
22:05 T4im that would allow for very easy interaction between realms too :D place something in one realm, let it have some fringe effect on another in the same position
22:06 est31 lol
22:07 T4im protection checking etc would be easier for a 4d position then as well
22:08 est31 heh lol these things are all bugs, not positive features
22:10 est31 you would have kinda of a discrete topology on the realm coord
22:12 est31 well, its topology is a bit more complicated
22:13 T4im well, not talking about fading in and out between realms, though that would of course be a very near effect too :P
22:13 T4im neat*
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22:17 est31 but yeah talking with topology terms is quite stupid
22:21 VanessaE another thought: extend the map, damn the torpedoes.  on startup, if the map is the extended variety, then disable all existing lua-facing functions that deal with coord hashes entirely, making only the newer functions available.
22:21 VanessaE i.e. make mods that depend on them fail hard instead of silently fucking up.
22:23 VanessaE all existing maps would be treated as they are now (with those functions available), anything created after that point is "extended" and the API only offers the newer functions
22:23 VanessaE that's the sanest way I can think of, anyways.
22:24 est31 or just make it a setting
22:24 est31 it can work with both extended and non extended maps
22:24 T4im expose some sort of map version to builtin, then adapt lua behavior accordingly?
22:25 VanessaE T4im: that was my thought, yeah
22:25 est31 and then if you flip the switch the mods will fail
22:25 est31 but I think I dont want to extend it to 32 bit as well
22:25 est31 because I think its better done with VAEs
22:25 VanessaE then extend it to 64 bit ;)
22:25 VanessaE um, VAEs are supposed to be for big stuff that moves around I thought?
22:25 est31 and then its only limited by the VAE id counter
22:27 est31 I'd like to have a second non physically interacting VAE type that's position,rotation etc can either freely modified by lua without a physics engine asking it do do things, or be "attached" to other VAEs, or the "main root" map
22:27 VanessaE mmh
22:27 est31 so if you walk into one direction for a long time, the server creates VAEs with new blocks
22:28 VanessaE that just seems super-hacky
22:28 est31 and it allows the map to be far more larger
22:28 est31 because
22:28 est31 because you aren't limited in xyz per se
22:28 est31 you are only limited by the VAE id
22:28 T4im why not solve the "Infinite world size" problem by letting people pop up on the other side of the map? :P
22:28 est31 which can be e.g. 32 bit
22:28 VanessaE T4im: that would help to a small degree
22:29 est31 T4im, mods can already do this
22:29 T4im by teleporting you mean?
22:29 est31 yea
22:29 T4im nah, I mean tiling it seamlessly
22:29 VanessaE but it doesn't do much to address the larger concern:  as much as it pains me to say it, minecraft beats the shit out of minetest on this front.
22:29 T4im as if minetest would provide a sphere as map
22:29 T4im (at least horizontally)
22:30 est31 T4im, you mean a cube?
22:30 est31 there are no spheres in minetest
22:30 est31 :)
22:30 VanessaE technically it would be a torus wouldn't it? :)
22:31 est31 no
22:31 VanessaE sure it would - north wraps around to south
22:31 T4im but west to east too..
22:31 VanessaE with a globe topology, you'd have to "bounce" off of the "pole" and end up somewhere further east or west
22:32 VanessaE if only X wraps, it's a cylinder.  if X and Z both wrap, it has to be a torus.
22:33 est31 VanessaE, the difference between torus and sphere (or cube xD) is that on spheres you can contract every circle into a single point
22:33 est31 on a torus this isnt possible
22:33 VanessaE fair enough
22:34 T4im a hollow sphere
22:35 waressearcher2 speaking of spheres toruses and cubes as map http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJr4QlDxEME#t=60s
22:35 T4im unless digging through the bottom should end weirdly :>
22:37 est31 I like how the renderer shows the landscape if the voxels aren't loaded
22:38 T4im or better yet, est31 will rewrite the physics entirely and we let the player end up on a kleinbottle
22:38 est31 lol
22:38 T4im i.e. if he walks far enough, he'll be upside down to the other players :p
22:39 VanessaE hah
22:40 est31 http://media.indiedb.com/images/do​wnloads/1/69/68101/thumb0.1.6.jpg
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22:41 est31 this is way better than fog
22:41 T4im nice
22:42 est31 (not for the fire, but about how it renders only part of the map as voxels)
22:42 T4im certainly hart to mod/game change though
22:42 T4im hard*
22:42 cg ok guys, in .13 and .12 dev builds i cant save into the (worldpath)/player dir, is that now locked out or?????
22:42 T4im from a mod you mean?
22:42 cg yes
22:42 T4im do you have security enabled? if so, then yes
22:43 T4im probably that is
22:43 waressearcher2 est31: you said there is a mod that teleports player when he reaches edge, don't you think that mod could've achieved the same by just turning player 90 degree left or right ?
22:43 cg it seems to have broken my mod again lol
22:43 cg ive got it disabled
22:46 cg http://pastebin.com/iqKKXq6T
22:46 cg that code works untill 0.4.12dev
22:48 T4im you show me read code there, not save-into-directory code
22:49 T4im btw, you might want to look at some of the comments in https://github.com/minetest/​minetest_game/pull/669/files
22:49 T4im it applies to your code too ;)
22:50 T4im oh, wait you're talking about the erase?
22:51 cg it wont read or write inth the dir
22:51 cg into*
23:02 T4im cg: lets move that somewhere outside of -dev, I don't think it's an engine issue, so lets not bother this fine people; and perhaps send more context, it might help (is that part of cg72_game?)
23:04 T4im (at least I can't reproduce any issue like that locally in a dev build)
23:05 VanessaE sounds like the result of that mod security patch, if not a simple permissions issue.
23:06 paramat http://i.imgur.com/fRA61E9.png mwahaha, a new option for mgv7
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