Time Nick Message 04:17 est31 can I push https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/8e83ca4b624a9bcc49087c126993c23504d1a97a 04:38 est31 did a PR 04:46 hmmmm looks good to me 05:21 est31 btw wheather has been FULLY removed, right? 05:22 est31 I mean: do we still need the hack of commit 06cdce1e12? 05:22 est31 I mean 06cdce1e12 05:28 est31 btw why has it been removed? 05:36 OldCoder Has mapformat.txt been deleted? 05:36 OldCoder A vanilla build just failed 05:36 OldCoder file INSTALL cannot find 05:36 OldCoder "/opt/minebest/src/core/server/minetest/doc/mapformat.txt" 05:36 est31 ahhh 05:37 est31 sorry my fault 05:37 est31 OldCoder, yes it has been renamed to worldformat.txt 05:37 est31 because it not just documents the map's format 05:37 est31 but of the whole world 05:38 OldCoder But the build fails? 05:38 OldCoder Generic make && make install gives that error 05:38 OldCoder file INSTALL cannot find 05:38 OldCoder "/opt/minebest/src/core/server/minetest/doc/mapformat.txt" 05:38 OldCoder ? 05:38 est31 well surely it does have to be fixed 05:39 OldCoder So, a recent change? 05:39 OldCoder Nobody but me has compiled recently? Odd 05:39 est31 yes 05:39 est31 well I have compiled but I never do make install 05:40 OldCoder Heh 05:40 OldCoder Well, my bug report is submitted 05:40 OldCoder Presently, MT can't be built 05:41 * OldCoder patches it temporarily by cp -p doc/worldformat.txt doc/mapformat.txt 05:42 OldCoder 05:42 OldCoder BTW VE says mapgen7 does not work with the types of lighting in moretrees 05:43 OldCoder Does anybody know if that is corrected? 05:43 est31 perhaps you have luck and paramat appears 05:43 est31 he's on github at least 05:44 OldCoder One step at a time 05:44 OldCoder Have recently tried mg7 and seems to work 05:47 est31 OldCoder, can you look whether I've done a typo : https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/b3682e7dae87580c91de955ced90c574ddf56925 05:50 OldCoder Hi 05:50 OldCoder est31, Reviewing 05:51 paramat can you link me to 06cdce1e12 ? 05:51 OldCoder paramat, HI 05:51 OldCoder est31, let me repull the code 05:51 OldCoder Moment 05:51 paramat moretrees still has shadow bugs, more common in mgv7, not fixed 05:52 OldCoder Hi; thanks! 05:52 paramat weather was proller's weather and had many issues 05:52 paramat (dynamic weather) 05:53 OldCoder ./CMakeLists.txt:install(FILES "doc/mapformat.txt" DESTINATION "${DOCDIR}") 05:53 OldCoder est31, that is in the code; odd, your change is not present 05:53 OldCoder I see no typo 05:53 est31 ok pushed 05:53 OldCoder The change simply isn't there 05:53 OldCoder Ah 05:53 OldCoder This is new 05:53 OldCoder Repulling 05:55 OldCoder est31, rebuild works 05:55 OldCoder t y 06:20 est31 really, to be honest, the serialisation version is the totally wrong place to send wheather data 06:20 est31 to indicate that 06:20 est31 I mean 06:21 est31 and the serialized mapblock is the wrong place to send the wheather data 06:21 est31 yes, it fits with the client's memory structure 06:21 est31 but that sholdn't be used to design a protocol 06:23 est31 or not? 06:23 est31 I'm not sure 06:24 paramat i'll remove those commented-out lines then merge #3175 06:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3175 -- Firelike drawtype: Improve code by paramat 06:24 est31 okay 06:29 paramat hm actually i can simplify it more by replacing hOffset and hOffsetBot by literals, those were probably variables only for easy adjustment of the drawtype 06:30 est31 yea its better to have variables 06:30 est31 then you can tune easier 06:30 est31 and make less mistakes 06:32 est31 well I guess ill leave the wheather serialisation as it is right now 06:33 hmmmm weather data has not been part of minetest for quite some time now 06:33 hmmmm when we got rid of proller's shit 06:34 est31 it still gets sent 06:34 est31 hardcoded to 0 06:34 hmmmm ugh 06:34 est31 with a comment // deprecated 06:35 est31 look at MapBlock::{DeS,s}erializeNetworkSpecific methods 06:35 est31 they were added by proller's commit 06:37 est31 still I wonder what the actual reason was why we have no wheather 06:37 est31 anymore 06:37 paramat i was just imagining the season changing and all the snow on a mountain melting to water =s 06:39 hmmmm if minetest had stayed in that direction, the season would change and half the snow on the mountain would melt to water, before crashing 06:39 hmmmm and then the water would probably get stuck or something 06:41 est31 yea its a nightmare to get optimized 06:42 est31 imagine all loaded blocks being modified by the server all the time 06:42 est31 just because of seasons 06:42 hmmmm lol, not even that 06:42 hmmmm last time i checked, proller's finite liquid is STILL buggy 06:44 est31 the problem here is that we have to do a very unrealistic simulation of nature 06:44 est31 one that doesnt take resources 06:44 est31 in nature however, there is tons of "resources" spent on tons of things 07:02 paramat now merging 3175 07:07 paramat complete 07:26 paramat ~tell sfan5 i'm going through some old PRs for mtgame, are 2 '-1's enough to close an old PR? such as game#165 game#178 07:26 ShadowBot paramat: O.K. 07:32 paramat ~tell sfan5 perhaps it should be 3 '-1's as that's a majority. perhaps you could add your vote to the threads i am updating? 07:32 ShadowBot paramat: O.K. 07:41 est31 game#165 07:41 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/165 -- Add moonflower mod by RealBadAngel 07:41 est31 game#178 07:41 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/178 -- Add tin by Zeg9 07:43 est31 the real big problem of VAEs is lighting 07:44 est31 we can't update our per-node lighting maps every time a VAE moves 07:47 est31 I mean VAEs should influence each other 07:47 est31 when you place a torch at a spaceship or so 07:47 est31 lol a flying problem 08:07 rubenwardy what about collision, est31? That would require a lot of map look ups. 08:10 est31 thats a problem as well 08:12 celeron55 collision isn't impossible at all, but there's not much room for sloppy design or coding in it 08:12 celeron55 any special lighting has to wait for a huge lighting rework; it's useless to even think about that in the current system 08:14 est31 any ideas how the new system could look like 08:14 celeron55 buildat has VAEs and it uses bullet (through urho3d's wrapping of it) for their physics collisions 08:16 celeron55 i don't know; lighting is problematic because people are used to how lighting in minetest works and for example switching to more traditional 3d lighting would really put people off 08:17 celeron55 you need something special to make caves work as well as they do now 08:18 celeron55 and houses and whatever 08:18 waressearcher2 what is VAE ? 08:18 rubenwardy Voxel Area Entities 08:18 rubenwardy see 08:18 rubenwardy ~dev todo 08:18 ShadowBot TODO - Minetest Developer Wiki -- http://dev.minetest.net/todo 08:21 celeron55 basically to get it right we'd need something that is called "global illumination" 08:21 waressearcher2 there is 0.5.0 coming soon ? 08:22 est31 no idea 08:22 rubenwardy versions don't matter that much, waressearcher2 08:23 celeron55 (minetest kind of weirdly has global illumination in its current voxel-based ligting, believe it or not) 08:23 nrzkt waressearcher2: 0.4.13 has been released 1 month ago, wait :) 08:24 waressearcher2 est31: its just I'm reading http://dev.minetest.net/TODO#Big_protocol_changes "The point of this section is to list such features so that they can be merged at once: a one-time incompatibility, perhaps coinciding with the release of 0.5.0, is better than breaking compatibility all the time" 08:25 waressearcher2 I thought its like "embrase yorselves 0.5.0 is coming" 08:26 est31 yea for a time this was how things looked like 08:26 est31 then sb tried to implement breaking changes some people vetoed 08:26 celeron55 it's more like "embrace yourselves, this will take forever to happen" 08:26 est31 now we regard backwards compat as something very important 08:27 est31 lol 08:28 est31 but if there is really a feature that needs a breaking change... why not then 08:28 est31 but right now I haven't seen any feature that was worth it 08:28 est31 and which really needs that change 08:30 waressearcher2 how about a clean slate ? 08:30 rubenwardy as long as there are world convertors, and mods still work, it's fne 08:30 rubenwardy waressearcher2, a rewrite? 08:30 rubenwardy do you realise how much work that would be? 08:31 waressearcher2 right, with all that experience, new fresh start will be better 08:31 est31 there are tons of half finished minecraft clones out there 08:31 rubenwardy ~g hexahedra 08:31 ShadowBot rubenwardy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexahedron | A hexahedron (plural: hexahedra) is any polyhedron with six faces. A cube, for example, is a regular hexahedron with all its faces square, and three squares ... 08:31 rubenwardy hexahedra.net 08:31 rubenwardy it's a project that apparently is based on the idea of Minetest 08:31 rubenwardy [citation needed] 08:32 rubenwardy anyway, this isn't really #minetest-dev quality 08:32 kahrl_ waressearcher2: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html 08:36 paramat yeah i prefer organic evolution of code, mgv7 was almost scrapped but now look at it 08:37 est31 actually I am really impressed by their mapgen 08:37 est31 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uSFLOPTVdE 08:37 est31 those mountains 08:37 rubenwardy have you seen their mapgen specification language? 08:37 est31 no 08:38 rubenwardy 1 sec 08:38 celeron55 that project seemed to die about a year ago 08:39 rubenwardy http://forum.hexahedra.net/t/development-for-0-2/41/13 08:40 rubenwardy no commits since the 4th of December 08:40 rubenwardy https://github.com/Nocte-/hexahedra/ 08:41 paramat for a moment i thought it had voxel-resolution realtime shadows, i like the idea of that 08:41 celeron55 my problem with hexahedra is that it's even more less clear what it's trying to do than in minetest's case 08:41 est31 yea 08:41 celeron55 it's less of a game, and it's less extendable than minetest 08:41 celeron55 so what is it then 08:42 rubenwardy a wip 08:42 celeron55 yes, but what's the goal 08:42 rubenwardy no idea 08:43 kahrl_ it's more infinite than minetest at least :) 08:43 rubenwardy a Minetest-clone 08:43 rubenwardy less of a complicated mess, I guess ;) 08:43 est31 interesting 08:43 celeron55 that's just stupid in my opinion; minetest is already vague enough, why would anyone in their right mind clone minetest, lol 08:43 est31 Tesseract will like this 08:44 est31 their server is hexaedra-server 08:44 est31 not hexaedraserver 08:44 rubenwardy as a rewrite, probably 08:44 est31 minetest did some things right 08:44 est31 cubic mapblocks 08:44 est31 leading to limitless height 08:45 celeron55 hexahedra has a completely different Lua API, right? 08:45 est31 totally dynamic nodedefs (nothing hardcoded) 08:45 rubenwardy limitless, as in 31,000 08:46 est31 we have some uglier things though as well 08:46 rubenwardy The author has been developing the custom made noise library that Hexahedra uses, last at 22 Jul 08:47 est31 like what you say 08:47 rubenwardy Minetest's API isn't faultless 08:47 est31 that limit 08:47 celeron55 minetest is faulty has hell but at least some people find it useful 08:48 rubenwardy it's still being developed, and isn't really a working product yet 08:49 celeron55 the largest issue is that we, and i, don't actually understand why MT is as popular as it is and might just screw up everything like idiots 8) 08:50 est31 not doing anything is bad as well :) 08:51 est31 I like minetest (and all minecraftlikes in general but I only have minetest experience) because it has so many variations. in an RTS you can only place buildings, in a shooter you can only shoot at people 08:51 est31 in minetest you can shoot at people while placing buildings 08:52 est31 well, the shooting isnt as good as in ego-shooters 08:53 celeron55 that's the "ridiculous sandbox" aspect, which i agree is a pretty strong point 08:53 est31 perhaps its only because we live in the 2010s 08:54 est31 its a thing that is popular for a short time 08:54 est31 then vanishes 08:54 celeron55 (i think i actually wrote a blog post about that a year or two ago) 08:54 est31 (regarding voxellikes) 08:54 est31 perhaps I've read that and my brain didnt store it with proper attribution 08:55 est31 stupid brain 08:57 celeron55 i'm referring to this http://c55.me/blog/?p=1491 08:57 celeron55 i don't entirely like what i wrote in that but it still has some merit to it in my opinion 08:58 est31 hexahedron is affero GPL 3 08:58 est31 O-o 08:58 celeron55 oh god why 08:59 paramat i like that post 09:03 waressearcher2 celeron55: why don't you like gpl3 ? 09:03 waressearcher2 torvalds also doesn't like it 09:03 celeron55 Affero GPL is not free enough 09:04 celeron55 LGPL is the least free i personally accept 09:04 nrzkt go to BSD licenced :D 09:05 est31 my thought to this is: if I want to make money with something, why should I not give a part of it to the original creator (you)? 09:06 est31 copyleft just separates the concepts of free software and proprietary software 09:07 est31 but LGPL is OK IMO, we are an engine 09:09 est31 and parts of minetest are even MIT licensed 09:19 rubenwardy by free do you mean permissive? 09:20 est31 me? or c55? 09:23 rubenwardy Affero GPL is not free enough 09:23 waressearcher2 est31: "should I not give a part of it to the original creator", because some people just like Steve Jobs ? 09:23 est31 yeah, thas his definition. I can understand him 09:24 est31 what does this have to do with steve jobs? 09:24 waressearcher2 est31: he lied to wozniak about bonus money 09:26 celeron55 rubenwardy: in my head free and permissive are quite the same things 09:27 rubenwardy okay 09:27 rubenwardy It's just that GNU defines free as copyleft, which is confusing 09:27 celeron55 but there might be some language barrier in there 09:27 rubenwardy *FSF 09:28 celeron55 oh, that too; i don't really listen to anything FSF says 09:38 est31 btw about the VAE phyics implementation in buildat 09:39 est31 how do you give the VAE's shape to bullet? 09:42 celeron55 buildat constructs a bullet object thingy (i don't remember what they are called) and just adds a lot of boxes to it 09:42 celeron55 not one box per node but it optimizes them somewhat 09:43 celeron55 the whole ground in it is actually just VAEs put next to each other 09:49 celeron55 est31: http://i.imgur.com/MHCP2UP.jpg 09:52 est31 cool 09:54 celeron55 those physics get kind of weird if you for example fall really fast into the ground 09:55 celeron55 you might fall into the ground and get weirdly squeezed in between of some boxes 09:55 celeron55 then you have to walk and jump and wiggle yourself out from there 8) 09:59 waressearcher2 celeron55: is that screenshot from minetest ? 09:59 celeron55 no, it's from this crazy experiment https://github.com/celeron55/buildat 10:01 est31 I think a good goal for minetest would be to be modular 10:02 est31 e.g. what zeno does 10:02 est31 (that we can use multiple renderers) 10:02 est31 not as modular as buildat 10:03 est31 also not as generic as it 10:09 est31 also, we should federate minetest's data formats 10:09 est31 minecraft is the big player here with extra wikis created just by people who create minecraft compatible minecraft clones 10:10 est31 but I think devs should adopt minetest's formats because they are better in many regards 10:11 est31 minecraft is very simple compared to us 10:11 est31 but yeah, perhaps they are the HTTP/1.0 and we are the HTTP/1.2. who implements us as a hobby project xD 10:17 celeron55 minetest's formats aren't that great, but if they are revised some day, then i imagine people might want to use them 10:17 est31 what do you think are problems 10:18 celeron55 they are full of legacy crap 10:18 est31 yea there is some of it agreed 10:36 est31 most from the days there was no mt_game 10:39 OldCoder celeron55 I have observed a puzzle for weeks. If ABMs have the same chance, they seem to trigger often on exactly the same nodes. But the C++ code seems to iterate through the ABM list and call myrand for each one... 10:40 OldCoder How is it that one node gets triggered a bunch of times simultaneously? 10:47 celeron55 OldCoder: based on the information you just gave, what you said isn't possible 10:47 OldCoder All right; will continue to debug... but... 10:48 celeron55 i don't remember anything that could cause that 10:48 OldCoder What I've observed is that mobs are created by ABMs... even ABMs that are unrelated end up with them clumped together 10:48 OldCoder Will look again at the Lua code 10:48 OldCoder But this is highly consistent 10:48 OldCoder It is not visible in most worlds because 10:49 OldCoder People set active object count limit low 10:49 OldCoder If the limit is increased, the issue becomes visible 10:49 OldCoder Based on what you just said, the issue must be somewhere at the Lua level, but I've traced it down 10:49 celeron55 oh, well that could be for example because the iteration order is constant, and the ABM implementation maybe doesn't add a mob if there already are many, in which case the mobs end up in the beginning part of the iteration? 10:49 OldCoder One moment; it is this line of C++ code that is of interest: 10:50 OldCoder for(std::vector::iterator 10:50 OldCoder i = j->second.begin(); i != j->second.end(); ++i) { 10:50 OldCoder if(myrand() % i->chance != 0) continue; 10:50 OldCoder 3 lines, excuse me 10:50 OldCoder Doesn't this mean that each ABM gets a separate myrand call? 10:51 OldCoder Note that I'm referring to multiple distinct ABMs 10:51 celeron55 yes; and i do not believe there are any such problems on the C++ side 10:51 OldCoder triggering at the same time on the same nodes 10:51 celeron55 oh, well that can happen of course 10:51 OldCoder Well, I'll continue to trace through the Lua code, then. But different ABMs, different mods, are triggering up to 64 times at once on the same node 10:51 celeron55 the nodes are iterated only once, right? 10:51 OldCoder Hm? 10:52 OldCoder Yes but each gets its own C++ myrand call, right? 10:52 celeron55 yes but that doesn't mean they couldn't activate at the same time, especially if they have a relatively high chance and a big interval 10:52 OldCoder They could, yes; but they activate in clumps spread far apart 10:53 celeron55 i believe people usually use too big intervals and and too big chances in their ABMs 10:53 celeron55 -and 10:53 OldCoder Yes; but even so, there should not be clumps. Go on. 10:53 celeron55 well, dunno then 10:53 OldCoder Comment on too-big chances, do you mean chance too large? 10:53 OldCoder I.e. low odds? 10:53 celeron55 too high odds 10:53 OldCoder All right. No, I have things at chance 50000 10:54 OldCoder Interval 30 10:54 celeron55 okay that's more or less intended usage 10:54 OldCoder And they still appear in clumps. Almost certainly a bug at some level. I will report back. 10:54 OldCoder The thing is, the ABMs go right down to the minetest.register_abm level 10:54 OldCoder So there isn't much Lua to debug 10:55 celeron55 wait, chance of 50000... 10:55 OldCoder Is there a limit of 32767 or something? 10:55 OldCoder The myrand code seems to support unsigned long long arithmetic 10:55 celeron55 isn't the return value of myrand() something like int16 or uint16 10:55 OldCoder Checking; moment 10:56 OldCoder No it is u32 10:56 OldCoder There was a known bug in the past 10:56 OldCoder Where range size could not be too large for PseudoRandom 10:56 OldCoder But myrand seems to support u32 10:56 OldCoder Not enough for you to comment further, probably 10:57 OldCoder I can add some printf's to the C++ code 10:57 OldCoder and see if it is in the myrand code or a different level 10:57 celeron55 well the C standard rand() returns int but the reutrnvalue is actually 0...RAND_MAX and RAND_MAX is often 32767 10:57 celeron55 i don't even know what this PcgRandom::next() exactly does; it's not documented properly 10:57 OldCoder Reviewing code 10:58 OldCoder It is an attempt at a higher quality pseudo-random generator 10:58 celeron55 that i know 10:58 OldCoder Hm; I could replace it in my copy and see 10:58 celeron55 just add a dstream< 30912 19:23 nrzkt k 19:23 asl97 VanessaE: 16 is the chunk size isn't it? 19:23 VanessaE yes 19:23 VanessaE (well it's the mapblock size, I think a "chunk" is 5x5x5 mapblocks) 19:25 asl97 ah yea, iirc, there no way to change the mapblock size through the conf 19:25 VanessaE in ANY case, it's clearly unsafe to let anyone or anything get near the map edges. 19:27 VanessaE here's the backtrace from the crash that worldedit caused when I tried to select the area: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/12411552/ 19:27 VanessaE (in worldedit, you can select an area and do stuff like //clearobjects to just operate in that area) 19:30 VanessaE meanwhile, I did a /deleteblocks in that area, radius 5 and then did a global clearobjects 19:30 asl97 how does it fall all the way down though 19:31 VanessaE they looked like sand monsters (from carbone_mobs); there is a long, vertical shaft going from there on up past where I could see, so they probably spawned in a surface desert and then fell down at some point. 19:33 VanessaE and yes, somehow those mobs managed to *punch* me while both they and I were floating in the out-of-bounds void. 19:36 VanessaE and furthermore, my client crashed when it tried to display the server shutdown/crash screen. 19:44 VanessaE plus to top it all off, I'm starting to see those "suspiciously large amount of entities in block" and "block already has more than X objects, forcing detele" 19:45 VanessaE with object counts into the 70'000 range 19:46 VanessaE ...forcing delete* 20:27 OldCoder VanessaE, //deleteblocks won't delete entities, right? Only solution is /clearobjects ? 20:28 OldCoder Is there a way to do clearobjects just for the region below -32000 ? 21:28 hmmmm /deleteblocks does delete any entities statically stored in those blocks 21:28 hmmmm no objects that are currently active on the map however 21:34 everamzah yeah that's a bummer 22:05 paramat now merging game#442 and game#601 22:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/442 -- Change obsidian glass drawtype to glasslike_framed_optional by MT-Modder 22:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/601 -- Remove beds/Changelog.txt & farming/API.txt by CraigyDavi 22:12 paramat complete