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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-08-31

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Time Nick Message
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03:12 VanessaE *sigh*:  https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.ph​p?f=15&t=9196&p=189201#p189200
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05:10 paramat hi hmmmm game#659 is a perhaps temporary fix for issue game#652 any comments?
05:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/659 -- Default/trees: Add not-force-placed tree schematics grown from saplings by paramat
05:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/652 -- Schematic tree trunks destroy existing nodes
05:11 hmmmm ehh
05:11 hmmmm just because somebody reports some behavior they don't like in a bug tracker does not mean it needs to be 'fixed'
05:12 hmmmm trees always destroyed nodes when they grew from saplings
05:12 paramat nah mgv6 ones don't
05:12 hmmmm i think you should get more consensus before doing anything.
05:13 hmmmm are you sure they don't?
05:14 hmmmm maybe is_ground_content can get checked when replacing nodes if a certain option is set
05:14 hmmmm or something like that, i don't know
05:14 paramat yeah sure, they are lua routines designed to only replace air, ignore or leaves
05:15 paramat however i'm fairly neutral because i don't run a server
05:16 hmmmm add a schematic flag
05:17 hmmmm SCHEM_PRESERVE_NONGROUND_CONTENT
05:17 hmmmm or something like that
05:17 hmmmm then in blitToVManip, if ((m_flags & SCHEM_PRESERVE_NONGROUND_CONTENT) && ndef->get(node_being_replaced).is_ground_content) continue;
05:18 paramat ah good idea
05:20 hmmmm i don't know, it's just a suggestion
05:20 hmmmm if you want to go ahead with making a duplicate tree schematic then I guess that's fine too... but it strikes me as being kind of hacky
05:21 paramat well ideally trunks need to replace leaves, but leaves not replace trunks, all without griefing
05:21 paramat it's complex, i suggested as idea in the last comment in the issue
05:21 paramat (an)
05:22 paramat but not sure it's useful enough to add
05:23 paramat and recreating tree schematics in lua is a pain
05:23 paramat anyway will consider all this, thanks
05:23 paramat for the moment the commit is a quick perhaps temporary fix
05:24 hmmmm are things exploding without that patch?
05:25 paramat server owners are a bit horrified due to griefing possibilities
05:26 paramat i feel a bit guilty for not having considered this. VanessaE thoughts?
05:26 hmmmm i would do the elegant solution first
05:29 paramat problem is neither water or leaves are ground content, water needs to be replaced for rainforest swamps
05:31 paramat otherwise cool idea. so yeah hacky but maybe temporary, i will probably merge
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05:46 neoascetic Wow, finally new minetest.net, it is awesome!
05:50 paramat we should get some mgv7 screenshots up there :}
05:52 Calinou working on the site
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05:55 neoascetic btw why doesn't it hosted on github pages? I thought main problem with mediawiki is that we need someone to change the stuff. Now we still need a someone who will rebuild and re-push website when some PR applied
05:56 neoascetic wouldn't it be better to have auto site rebuild ?
05:56 Calinou it is hosted on GitHub pages, neoascetic
05:56 Calinou when I commit something, it is built automatically
05:57 paramat cool
05:57 Calinou http://minetest.github.io redirects to http://minetest.net
05:57 neoascetic Oh, yeah. Great. But it built by whom?
05:58 Calinou me
05:58 Calinou it was a website competition entry, which ultimately won
05:59 neoascetic I think better way is let github pages built without need to do this by hands
06:00 neoascetic If we still need styles/custom jekyll plugins, we may use jekyll for this
06:00 neoascetic * may use travis for this
06:02 Calinou we don't have to do anything by hand for it to be built
06:02 Calinou we can build it locally on our PCs by using "jekyll serve" and connecting to http://localhost:4000/
06:02 Calinou this works even on Windows, provided you installed Ruby + DevKit (gem install jekyll)
06:03 neoascetic 1. install ruby 2. install npm 3. install jekyll and grunt
06:04 neoascetic btw customize -> forum links are broken
06:05 Calinou you can use "npm install" in folder to install packages locally, then run "grunt watch" :)
06:05 Calinou I need to fix package.json to not throw any warnings too
06:06 Calinou neoascetic, right, I'll fix them
06:08 Calinou done
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07:55 est31 should we have merge commits for https://github.com/minetest/minetest.github.io ?
07:55 est31 for prs
07:56 Calinou already did two
07:56 Calinou if they're just typo fixes or such, go ahead
07:57 est31 therefore I ask
07:58 est31 I mean we have decided to not use them for the engine, for some reasons, now I wonder whether those reasons apply here too
07:58 est31 but I guess its not important at all
07:58 Calinou merge commits are much cleaner
07:58 Calinou they actually respect how Git is meant to be used
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08:00 sfan5 we do this to keep history linear
08:00 sfan5 that applies to minetest.github.io too imo
08:01 Calinou minetest.github.io isn't something most people will clone
08:02 celeron55 est31: merge commits are fine for me
08:02 est31 thats the reason Calinou why I think its not important
08:03 celeron55 i don't think we need to have a fancy commit history in any of these "minor" repositories
08:03 est31 I agree that merge commits clutter up the history, but the website is such a "minor" repo
08:03 est31 yeah
08:09 celeron55 i'm surprised how much activity this repository immediately got; i guess this is ending up as a fairly good idea
08:11 Calinou most FLOSS projects maintain their site on GitHub these days, it's nothing exceptional
08:26 est31 man, its super ugly how entities handle static data
08:26 est31 if you create an entity from nothing, you not just have no way to pass some static data to it
08:27 est31 you also don't get nil in the on_activate callback
08:27 est31 which means you have to check for ""
08:32 est31 but changing this would possibly break mods
08:36 nrzkt est31: yes it's one of the bloat things in core, and changing it break mods too. You also have another thing like this with mesh entities with empty meshes for some cases...
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09:22 Calinou Piwik was merged into minetest.net
09:23 Calinou please test
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10:08 celeron55 Calinou: it will take an hour to update if i recall correctly; i can tell then
10:09 celeron55 piwik is kind of slow-paced like that
10:10 celeron55 wait, no, actually i can see already that it's working
10:11 celeron55 it's logging specific pages and downloads too
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10:22 Calinou http://www.minetest.net/servers.html is up!
10:22 nrzkt Calinou: i think you should remove more from webpage
10:23 nrzkt else the website only permit to top10 to be shown and be a little bit elitist
10:23 Calinou why? sometimes you want to see all servers
10:23 Calinou if we always expend the list, then the page becomes too long
10:23 VanessaE Calinou: also, it's not necessary to write "Server List" right below "Servers".
10:24 VanessaE I'd say write just "Server List" in the top part, delete the other one, and compact-out all of that whitespace
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10:26 nrzkt Calinou: yes but for a player to search a server, only show the most ranked servers discriminate less ranked servers
10:26 VanessaE the banner across the top should be narrower/shorter-in-height, lots of wasted space.
10:28 Calinou VanessaE, sorry but wasted space is a Web design trend :)
10:28 VanessaE ew. :P
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10:35 kilbith possible to limit/break that ? https://lut.im/xVOWQ9xV/qD01Z2oz
10:35 kilbith it shifts all the column
10:36 Calinou should we make a news post about new website?
10:36 Calinou there is none right now
10:40 Calinou https://etherpad.net/p/minetest-website-post
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10:53 rubenwardy Calinou, seriously, please check before merging :P
10:58 VanessaE bbl
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11:31 est31 can I push https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/​e530e5e75499ccb874b70d7416879d3d2b46df86
11:31 est31 reworded https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/​2c637ce1c26145269b09c62afb451240a8def401
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11:35 est31 will push it later this day
12:11 nrzkt est31: okay for me
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15:43 Megaf Folks, any word on Wayland support?
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15:44 Calinou we depend on Irrlicht for this task I guess.
15:44 Calinou either way, native Wayland won't be ready for the desktop until a few years
15:45 Calinou not even Fedora defaults to it, let alone Ubuntu and Debian
15:46 Megaf Hm, fair enough, I'm just curious about it. On Debian we already have a preview of GNOME on Wayland, it runs well enough for a preview
15:47 Calinou until NVIDIA ports their proprietary driver to use Wayland, there won't be any mass migrations really
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15:47 Calinou and Steam games need to work with it too...
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16:33 celeron55 the way i ran minetest on my jolla/sailish phone was making irrlicht use its SDL2 backend
16:33 celeron55 and SDL2 supports wayland
16:34 celeron55 and whatever driver things on the device supported ES1
16:34 celeron55 some things were partially broken though
16:35 celeron55 in any case that might be the closest MT has gotten to native wayland
16:37 celeron55 and that was... umm... 18 months ago
16:37 Calinou Irrlicht uses SDL 2?
16:38 celeron55 i think it was able to do that and it was the only way i could make it work in that situation
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16:40 celeron55 wait, i think it only supported SDL1 and i had to port it to SDL2
16:40 celeron55 http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/docu/namespa​ceirr.html#ac25d94cf2e1037c7ca18ee79b3bd4505
16:40 celeron55 the end result was full of weird hacks anyway
16:43 celeron55 i'll upload this just for the sake of it
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17:22 celeron55 https://github.com/celeron55/irrlich​t-with-sailfish-hacks/commits/master
17:22 celeron55 i think this is mostly what i did to irrlicht at that time
17:23 celeron55 (it's included in https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/​tree/sailfish/build/sailfish/irrlicht thoughg)
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17:32 Tesseract celeron55: Are you using proxy_pass for the site?
17:32 celeron55 yes; i find it kind of ridiculous but it does work
17:33 Tesseract Have you enabled proxy_cache?  It's pretty much static, just hive it a lifetime of 15m or so.
17:33 celeron55 the only reason is for making the ^/forum/?(.*)$ -> forum.minetest.net/$1 redirect work
17:34 celeron55 no i haven't, i guess i should
17:34 Tesseract Doesn't Jekyll have a way of doing something like that?
17:34 celeron55 it might; i don't know jekyll at all
17:35 Calinou CraigyDavi, thanks for all the pull requests :) merged the pretty URLs one
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17:49 Tesseract Calinou: Why are there like 20 copies if the icon with different names?
17:49 Tesseract of*
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17:49 Calinou Tesseract, responsive favicon :) from http://realfavicongenerator.net/
17:49 Calinou http://realfavicongenerator.net/f​avicon_checker?site=minetest.net
17:50 Calinou it's a terrible hack, but we need it until all browsers support SVG favicons
17:50 Calinou (only Firefox 41+ does currently)
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17:51 Tesseract Calinou: Why can't you just link to one .png?
17:51 Calinou it's not responsive
17:52 Calinou high-DPI screens will have a blurry favicon, mobile browsers won't recognize it properly (= blurry or small icon)
17:52 Tesseract Calinou: And if that's impossible at least move them into a sub-directory and use symlinks so they're not copies.
17:52 Calinou moving to a subdirectory is possible, but not advised
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17:52 Calinou http://realfavicongenerator.net/faq
17:53 celeron55 Tesseract: now it's caching some stuff
17:53 celeron55 umm... at least maybe
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17:57 Tesseract Calinou: It looks like you'll be fine if you just add a symlink/leave favicon.ico and change the lines for IOS devices.
17:57 sfan5 >iPhone and iPad users can turn web pages into icons on their home screen.
17:57 sfan5 well uhh
17:58 sfan5 we don't need to support that imo
17:58 celeron55 i don't undetstand; the cache seems to be missing most of the time
17:58 celeron55 i set nginx to set the X-Proxy-Cache header to indicate what its cache is doing
17:59 celeron55 github's cache is seen in X-Cache and it's obviously hitting all the time
17:59 sfan5 like hm
17:59 sfan5 we dont need to support making the mt website into a "link" app on Android/iOS/W8 at all IMO
18:00 Calinou don't underestimate people :)
18:00 Tesseract celeron55: What's your config?
18:02 Tesseract Calinou: Seems the argument for the -precomposed icon is just "there might be some weird platform out there that depends on it or something".
18:02 Tesseract iOS doesn't use it and I see no reason for anything else to ever use it.
18:02 Calinou precomposed could be removed, I agree
18:03 Calinou few users use < iOS 7
18:03 Calinou maybe I'll make an issue on the RealFaviconGenerator GitHub
18:03 Calinou 80% of iOS users are on iOS 8
18:03 celeron55 Tesseract: essentially this http://fpaste.org/261614/41044214/
18:03 celeron55 it's definitely saving stuff in the cache directory though
18:04 Tesseract Calinou: iOS < 7 doesn't need it either, it can do the precomposing itself.
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18:08 Tesseract celeron55: Your request has no cache-control headers?
18:08 est31 Calinou, can i push https://github.com/est31/minetest.github.io/co​mmit/9660badb53b56f6215ec59f954421774e0460758
18:08 celeron55 wait i guess my browser is actually caching all these requests so effectively that i'm unable to make a condition where the browser does not request cache bypass but requests a page that would be cached
18:08 est31 or everybody else :(
18:08 celeron55 well i guess it's working then
18:09 est31 )
18:10 Calinou est31, go ahead
18:10 celeron55 no; this isn't working
18:11 Tesseract celeron55: wget/curl?
18:11 celeron55 i can test this with curl and even if i request http://www.minetest.net/lib/js/bootstrap.min.js seconds apart, it's still a MISS
18:11 celeron55 as indicated by X-Proxy-Cache: MISS
18:13 est31 why not? → <Calinou> moving to a subdirectory is possible, but not advised
18:14 Calinou some stupid browsers won't see them then :(
18:14 est31 stupid ones
18:14 est31 well, thats an argument
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18:45 paramat hi nore sfan5 please can you review game#651 and game#659 ?
18:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/651 -- Fire: Move flame extinguishing to separate faster ABM by paramat
18:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/659 -- Default/trees: Add not-force-placed tree schematics grown from saplings by paramat
18:47 Tesseract Calinou: Here's my idea on how it should be: http://ix.io/kyy/diff
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18:49 Tesseract Basic changelog: http://sprunge.us/XDTL
18:49 Tesseract I actually decided to leave favicon.ico as it was though.
18:50 luizrpgluiz hi all :D
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18:52 celeron55 hmm... i think the cache is working now
18:52 celeron55 i don't even know what fixed it of everything i did but... whatever
18:55 CraigyDavi Calinou, you're welcome :)
18:55 celeron55 what this does in practice is 1) bombard github with considerably less requests, 2) add a 0...5 minute delay to updates from github, 3) make the server usually respond as fast as if it was hosting the site itself
18:56 celeron55 (i thought 5 minutes is probably a good compromise in update delay vs. cache usage)
18:57 celeron55 also if github pages goes down, it will serve stuff from the cache
18:57 celeron55 (probably won't happen but anyway, it's there)
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19:54 nrzkt celeron55 which cache did you use ? varnish ?
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19:55 celeron55 nrzkt: nginx proxy_cache
19:56 celeron55 github seems to use varnish on their end
19:56 Calinou how much visits does minetest.net get, according to Piwik?
19:56 Calinou per day
19:56 Calinou maybe website team could have some access to Piwik :)
19:56 nrzkt celeron55, nginx proxy cache works good for our visitors, it's sufficient :
19:59 celeron55 Calinou: piwik kind of sucks for generating any kind of good reports but here is a graph that lacks precision because piwik: http://i.imgur.com/9KI04sv.png
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20:00 celeron55 the reason why the stats aren't public is because piwik lacks any functionality for limiting what is shown, and we don't want to publish all the stuff that piwik is able to show
20:01 celeron55 i don't even know why piwik is used but oh well...
20:03 Calinou friends don't let friends use Google Analytics :)
20:03 celeron55 well yeah, but the world is a pretty shitty place if this is the best thing when avoiding google analytics
20:03 Calinou did you ask #piwik on how to make it better?
20:03 celeron55 whatever, i guess this works though
20:04 celeron55 oh one thing: that download graph is misleading
20:04 celeron55 it counted viewing screenshots on the dokuwiki pages as being downloads
20:05 celeron55 the actual download number is something like half of that
20:06 celeron55 so that's about 200-300 downloads per day
20:08 celeron55 (also, i think there are plugins for piwik that do some of the stuff i (or we) would like to do; it's really up to Tesseract for installing any of them
20:10 Tesseract celeron55: Anything in particular you want a plugin for?
20:13 celeron55 some kind of a single-page saveable (maybe PDF) report could be useful
20:14 celeron55 then we could set a layout for it and publish it whenever someone asks for stats
20:15 celeron55 here's the same graph, but weekly, from half a year ago when stats started being collected: http://i.imgur.com/QjRijTt.png
20:18 Tesseract Hmmm, I could just use print-to-file for that.
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20:40 celeron55 maybe let's not bother 8)
20:40 celeron55 but if you have a lot of time to spare, setting up something isn't the worst of ideas
20:40 celeron55 it's just that the stats are rather boring
20:40 celeron55 it's just those same numbers over and over again, months and months in history and future
20:41 celeron55 there's nothing to see
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20:56 Megaf celeron55: I have been using stat counter
20:56 Megaf and they have native public stats (but is not self hosted)
20:57 Megaf Anyway, they seem good enough
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21:56 paramat now merging game#654
21:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/654 -- Default: Allow papyrus growing on default:sand by paramat
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22:01 paramat merge complete
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22:02 est31 hrmmm #3127 looks good, but why wasn't the error triggered before?
22:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3127 -- Fix syntax error. by jh10001
22:02 est31 or what are the conditions of the triggering?
22:06 paramat nore and all i might merge game#659 later since it's an urgent bugfix, maybe temporary, and is fixing my own work
22:06 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/659 -- Default/trees: Add not-force-placed tree schematics grown from saplings by paramat
22:14 paramat my many improvements to fire mod are here for testing game#651 it was a real mess, no wonder it locked up servers
22:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/651 -- Fire: Move flame extinguishing to separate faster ABM by paramat
22:21 paramat (fire spread is made a little faster than in 0.4.13)
22:31 est31 bad bad trend https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=minetest
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22:35 est31 hi RBA, how are you?
22:35 RealBadAngel howdy
22:36 RealBadAngel im about to finish signlike drawtype, it was pain in the ass to complete
22:36 RealBadAngel i havent imagined whats needed to make it real
22:37 RealBadAngel what ive coded could be called either most ugly hack or most brilliant code, up to who reads it ;)
22:38 est31 A graph comparing open source minecraft clones (mostly minetest forks): https://www.google.com/trends/explore​#q=minetest%2C%20multicraft%2C%20voxe​lands%2C%20Terasology%2C%20freeminer
22:38 RealBadAngel but what ive noticed already, side effect of this code is realtime tinting of nodes
22:38 est31 tinting?
22:38 RealBadAngel grass foliage
22:39 RealBadAngel ive made realtime modifications to textures possible
22:39 est31 okay
22:40 RealBadAngel and its per node, not per def
22:40 VanessaE sounds useful.
22:40 est31 yea
22:41 RealBadAngel ive extended client side (only) meta to hold texture modifiers
22:41 est31 ok
22:41 Tesseract est31: Yikes!
22:43 RealBadAngel atm im holding there textrures with text
22:43 RealBadAngel but i can have there transparent faces with colour
22:43 est31 Tesseract, ?
22:43 Tesseract est31: MultiCraft statistics are way off: http://www.multicraft.org/
22:43 est31 ah
22:43 rickmcfarley joined #minetest-dev
22:44 RealBadAngel so i can easily tint grass depending on biome for example
22:44 est31 yea
22:44 est31 thats a really good application
22:45 RealBadAngel anyway, the request
22:45 est31 if we have client side modding, we could save tinting information or such in the param1, then mods can provide functions that return texture modifiers for the param1.
22:45 est31 but thats something for later
22:45 RealBadAngel somebody should make ladder stop using NDT_SIGNLIKE in minetest game
22:46 est31 param1 is more efficient storage than meta
22:46 RealBadAngel and make it using nodeboxes or whatever
22:46 VanessaE est31: param1 is needed for any non-solid node and anything that propagates sunlight.
22:47 est31 VanessaE, I know, but dirt doesnt propaggate it :)
22:47 VanessaE true :)
22:47 RealBadAngel im making now proper signlike drawtype and i really dont want to care about misuses of previous inclomplete code
22:47 VanessaE RealBadAngel: how close are you to superseding signs_lib?
22:47 est31 in the worst case we just add a NDT_SIGNLIKE_NEW or such
22:48 RealBadAngel i do have it almost done, not colors yet, but whole basics
22:48 RealBadAngel including freetype
22:48 VanessaE thought you weren't gonna consider freetype?
22:48 RealBadAngel you have made me consider it :P
22:48 VanessaE heh
22:49 RealBadAngel i made signlike using the same font as GUI
22:49 RealBadAngel i will make terminal code later on
22:50 RealBadAngel frankly i found rendering text to texture quite easy
22:51 RealBadAngel but only from main thread
22:51 RealBadAngel anyway code is nice
22:51 VanessaE as long as the rendered images are cached and re-used (rather than constantly re-rendered per frame) I see nothing wrong with that
22:52 RealBadAngel something like that: http://pastie.org/10388406
22:52 RealBadAngel no cache
22:52 RealBadAngel textures are made when meta changes (on demand)
22:52 VanessaE right
22:52 VanessaE I just meant no realtime re-rendering
22:52 RealBadAngel and droped when block is unloaded
22:53 RealBadAngel i was googling for solutions and spotted nice comparission
22:54 RealBadAngel somebody compared each frame text rendering to displaying prepared texture
22:54 RealBadAngel kinda 25x faster
22:54 VanessaE I found a possible memory leak with the minimap btw: it doesn't drop cached imagery when the client discards the relevant mapblocks
22:55 RealBadAngel now i have valgring and i know how to use it, i will test the minimap with it
22:55 VanessaE ok.
22:56 MinetestForFun joined #minetest-dev
22:56 RealBadAngel its surely broken by now
22:56 RealBadAngel at least radar mode is
22:57 RealBadAngel i will try to reorganize logic for it
22:57 VanessaE test procedure is easy though:  set client_mapblock_limit = 200 (or something else small) in minetest.conf.  fly around some world that's substantially generated (i.e. some public server).  compare the loaded, rendered mapblocks in the world with the ones shown in the minimap.
22:57 VanessaE (the default is 5000, it's possible to notice it then, too, but a smaller value makes it easier)
22:57 RealBadAngel what i was doing before was comparing nr of loaded blocks to number of cached minimap ones
22:57 RealBadAngel it was steady same number
22:58 RealBadAngel now its not
22:58 RealBadAngel thx to "fixes"
22:59 RealBadAngel also, i was playing skyblock a lot recently
22:59 VanessaE I know.  that's where I noticed it :D
22:59 VanessaE I was flying around exploring that ocean you created.
22:59 RealBadAngel damn, there are so many critical errors thats alomst unbeliveble they went unnoticed
22:59 VanessaE you mean like the water flickering?
22:59 VanessaE :P
23:00 RealBadAngel thats nothing
23:00 VanessaE what else?
23:00 RealBadAngel how about switching picked item from inv and swap it randomly with other one?
23:00 RealBadAngel annoying as hell
23:01 VanessaE that happens to me a lot too
23:01 VanessaE it's a mouse-drag-drop sensitivity issue
23:01 VanessaE there's no threshold.
23:01 RealBadAngel no
23:01 VanessaE no?
23:01 RealBadAngel it just swaps indexes
23:02 est31 <VanessaE> as long as the rendered images are cached and re-used (rather than constantly re-rendered per frame) I see nothing wrong with that
23:02 est31 thats the first requirement
23:02 RealBadAngel it can be easily reproduced
23:02 est31 second one is that cache shouldnt leak
23:02 RealBadAngel est31, there wont be any cache
23:02 est31 you want to re-render it on every frame?
23:02 est31 or only meshgen?
23:02 RealBadAngel ofc not
23:02 RealBadAngel on demand
23:02 VanessaE that's a cache.
23:03 est31 yea
23:03 RealBadAngel then stored in memory
23:03 VanessaE you create the image as-needed and then just re-use the image until it has to change.
23:03 RealBadAngel or dropped, so begone
23:03 VanessaE *nod*
23:03 VanessaE in any case, only one call ever, to the rendering code -- when the text changes or disappears.
23:04 RealBadAngel per node (infotext) texure is nothing that should be cached
23:04 RealBadAngel not a fucking way
23:04 RealBadAngel other way is to render that each frame, which is even worse
23:05 RealBadAngel when server sends meta change, i can see that
23:05 RealBadAngel and i can update the texture
23:05 RealBadAngel drop the old one, create new one
23:06 VanessaE that's what we're saying, RBA.
23:06 RealBadAngel and im confirming that
23:06 VanessaE ok.
23:06 RealBadAngel ;)
23:06 RealBadAngel but no cache i repeat
23:06 RealBadAngel such textures are dynamic
23:07 Icedream joined #minetest-dev
23:07 VanessaE saving a single texture somewhere in memory is still cacheing.
23:07 VanessaE even if you delete/rewrite it periodically.
23:07 est31 ah you mean that if two grass nodes are tinted the same way, you still generate two textures?
23:07 est31 because then I agree its no cache
23:07 RealBadAngel under term of "cache" i understand media sent to client and stored on hdd
23:07 VanessaE RealBadAngel: nononono
23:07 VanessaE RealBadAngel: in-memory cacheing
23:08 VanessaE like in top(1)
23:08 RealBadAngel in my code server wont be even aware of that
23:08 VanessaE est31: I should hope that if the source textures, tinting, etc all is identical between two nodes, the same resultant texture would be re-used then :-/
23:09 RealBadAngel so newer client will show the signs even with old server (just the signs mod updated)
23:09 RealBadAngel you would want to compare two infotexts to see if they can have identical textures?
23:10 RealBadAngel no go
23:10 VanessaE nah, but some kind of hash might be in order.
23:10 est31 yea
23:10 VanessaE hash the texture + markup, store that somewhere
23:10 VanessaE compare the hashes
23:10 est31 hash with reference counting
23:10 VanessaE reference counting, whatever
23:10 VanessaE hah, ninja'd
23:10 RealBadAngel maybe in the future, not now
23:11 est31 okay
23:11 est31 but we should not build large obstacles into the way
23:11 RealBadAngel stop requestin stuff like that when even basic functionality is not yet in :P
23:11 VanessaE RealBadAngel: for now, it's probably fine, but such a thing will need to be implemented before tinting is offered to the modding community
23:12 est31 yea
23:12 est31 otherwise servers will implement tinting and it will be super lag
23:12 MinetestForFun joined #minetest-dev
23:12 RealBadAngel est31, point is to let clients do it
23:12 VanessaE est31: or memory leaks from hell.
23:12 RealBadAngel as with the text
23:12 est31 also, we should implement that idea with the param1 or param2 extraction
23:12 est31 for tinting
23:13 RealBadAngel no no no
23:13 est31 its pointless for signs
23:13 RealBadAngel hands off params :)
23:13 est31 but for tinting its very helpful
23:13 RealBadAngel you have meta
23:13 est31 meta is inefficient
23:13 est31 its a string
23:13 RealBadAngel ofc not
23:13 est31 param1 is an int
23:14 RealBadAngel one of possible usages of meta is to store strings
23:14 est31 also, imagine having a super long modifier string
23:14 RealBadAngel i keep there pointers :P
23:14 RealBadAngel next to strings ;)
23:14 est31 ermmm
23:14 est31 pointers?
23:14 VanessaE for tinting, use param1 as an index into a palette, like with gif.
23:14 est31 seriously?
23:15 RealBadAngel to textures
23:15 RealBadAngel but only client side
23:15 RealBadAngel i do not attempt to send them
23:15 est31 erm...
23:15 est31 using meta this way is a hack
23:16 RealBadAngel when i get the block, deserialize it
23:16 RealBadAngel i know when i should make a new texture
23:16 est31 RealBadAngel, what exactly do you mean with "pointer"?
23:16 RealBadAngel so i do and store it on the client side meta
23:18 RealBadAngel i mean client side meta can hold extra data which server doesnt need to know about
23:18 est31 it can
23:18 est31 but its not the intended use
23:19 RealBadAngel theres no other way im afraid
23:19 est31 its cleaner to have an extra helper structure somewhere
23:19 RealBadAngel textures cannot be made in a thread other than main
23:20 est31 no problem with that
23:20 RealBadAngel thats out of discussion
23:20 RealBadAngel so, we have left content mapblock and mapblock mesh
23:21 RealBadAngel only possible way is to do that on deserialize got content
23:21 RealBadAngel now think about storing the texture you have made
23:21 RealBadAngel where?
23:21 RealBadAngel meta is the only solution
23:21 est31 perhaps we should have client_content_mapblock
23:21 est31 or so
23:21 RealBadAngel otherwise mapblock mesh wont get it
23:21 est31 and then store the pointers there
23:22 RealBadAngel content mapblock is client side only already
23:22 RealBadAngel but not main thread
23:22 est31 but?
23:22 RealBadAngel you cant run there any image or texture routines. read cannot invoke driver
23:23 RealBadAngel irrlicht is not thread safe and will propably never be
23:24 RealBadAngel such simple thing as creating new image in a thread is impossible
23:24 est31 which thread creates content mapblock?
23:25 RealBadAngel mapblock mesh invokes it
23:25 est31 okay
23:25 RealBadAngel which is called by client.cpp and mesh update thread
23:25 est31 yea
23:28 RealBadAngel at the time youre analyzing the nodes to get the meshes you read only defs
23:29 RealBadAngel so each node of the same kind is the same
23:29 RealBadAngel only way to store data that differs them is meta
23:30 VanessaE considering this is the client handling that meta, and the server never sees or stores it, I don't see a HUGE problem with the idea.
23:30 est31 VanessaE, can you open a bug report with that minimap leak
23:30 est31 so that we dont forget it
23:31 RealBadAngel my idea is to server send the text as it does already
23:31 VanessaE I can't confirm if what I saw is accurate, better to let RealBadAngel do whatever rework he has in mind first.
23:31 RealBadAngel then client on receive creates the texture
23:31 RealBadAngel and stores it as long block is in use
23:32 RealBadAngel so its transparent, no send action needed
23:32 RealBadAngel on unload texture got trashed
23:33 RealBadAngel same would apply to foliage
23:34 est31 VanessaE, I dont think that deletion is implemented
23:34 est31 so its a half-confirm from me :)
23:34 RealBadAngel just make random generator work the same on both sides and apply that on client side to the base texture
23:35 RealBadAngel so server will know only the seed, client will apply
23:35 est31 ?
23:36 RealBadAngel i mean transitions in grass colour between biomes for example
23:37 RealBadAngel so on the server side grass node is the same, but on the clients it can look different way
23:38 RealBadAngel but thats just a sidenote
23:39 RealBadAngel btw, ive switched to full hd monitor
23:39 est31 well, texture packs modifications with tinting could be done with that param1 trick
23:40 RealBadAngel its pretty weird that this 80 chars limit makes the code occupying just a margin of my display lol
23:40 est31 you just provide your own function get_texture_modifier(node_name, param1)
23:40 RealBadAngel like 1/4th of the screen
23:40 est31 yea
23:40 est31 its useful though, because you can open multiple windows simultaneously
23:41 est31 no more single tasking :p
23:41 RealBadAngel hehe
23:41 RealBadAngel but
23:41 RealBadAngel what i have noticed
23:41 RealBadAngel now im at much higher resolution
23:41 RealBadAngel no change in speed
23:42 RealBadAngel i mean in game
23:42 RealBadAngel and THATS pretty weird
23:44 RealBadAngel also, another thing, not related
23:44 RealBadAngel inventory has to be given option to split stacks
23:44 est31 you can split stacks already
23:45 est31 into n - 1 : 1
23:45 RealBadAngel what we do have now (touching a stacks with two fingers) is a joke
23:45 est31 1 : n-1
23:45 est31 n/2 : n/2
23:45 est31 n - 10 : 10
23:45 est31 10 : n -10
23:45 est31 that are the options
23:45 RealBadAngel have you actually tried to do that on a small scren?
23:46 est31 you mean touchscreen?
23:46 RealBadAngel yes
23:46 est31 ah yeah
23:46 RealBadAngel there should be two slots to split input
23:46 est31 Tesseract, small question regarding security. does the minetest.something API also get included into the table returned by minetest.request_insecure_environment()?
23:46 RealBadAngel most easy solution
23:46 est31 and if this api gets included, is it the same table as the "official" insecure minetest.something API?
23:47 est31 I mean if a mod overrides minetest.get_player_privs
23:47 est31 and you have something like worldedit chat commands
23:47 est31 which checks for server priv for arbitrary lua command entry
23:48 est31 then the evil untrusted mod could fake server privs, and decide which players to also give arbitrary lua command entry
23:49 est31 and possibly that entry isn't sandboxed
23:49 est31 the mod could even bypass the whole chat mechanism I guess
23:50 est31 just call minetest.registered_chatcommand​s["/lua_cmd"].func(admin_name)
23:50 Tesseract est31: No, it isn't included.
23:54 est31 do secure trusted mods get loaded before or after untrusted mods?
23:54 est31 or unordered?
23:56 est31 ouch https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?p=189354#p189354
23:56 est31 one way to fix it would be to load all trusted mods first
23:56 est31 but ofc if a trusted mod depends on an untrusted one, we have a problem
23:57 est31 the sandbox isnt ready for opening the floodgates
23:57 est31 except we dont execute any trusted mod
23:58 est31 (with "opening the floodgates" i mean adding unmoderated mod repos like minetest-bower to  the client's functionality)

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