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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-08-23

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All times shown according to UTC.

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18:05 hmmmm hrmm
18:06 hmmmm never really noticed it, but Client and Server are so un-orthogonal
18:06 hmmmm why does the Server manage its own gamedef components while Client does not?
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18:18 celeron55 probably because random
18:18 celeron55 this is one of those questions
18:19 celeron55 i mean, there might have been a reason some years ago, but i'm sure that reason does not exist anymore
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19:21 hmmmm I think it's mostly because Game is messy
19:21 hmmmm sure - the file may have been broken up into lots of simple functions, but that doesn't do anything about the actual interface design
19:23 kahrl speaking of Zeno_, what was the last news about the ogre3d branch?
19:24 hmmmm last time he was here, it works but it's buggy
19:24 hmmmm :-)
19:24 kahrl well that's to be expected
19:24 kahrl like any huge rewrite
19:24 hmmmm i hope it doesn't cause too many conflicts with client side modding
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19:49 paramat yesterday kilbith posted http://irc.minetest.ru/minet‚Äčest-dev/2015-08-22#i_4374313 i'm noticing very short rendering freezes in random bursts of 1 or 2, every second or so. more noticeable when flying. i don't seem to remember this happening before
20:01 OldCoder I've been asked if this is significant: serialize.cpp:161:21: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned [-Wsign-compare]: if (is.gcount() != s_size)
20:02 paramat not a big problem, that's why it's only a 'warning'
20:02 OldCoder The person in question states that compiles fail but I don't see how...
20:02 OldCoder unless he has turned on fatal warnings. One more datum...
20:02 OldCoder He states that he has regular serialization errors at runtime and feels this line may be related
20:03 OldCoder Does the speculation seem unwarranted?
20:03 OldCoder Thank you
20:04 paramat actually i notice these brief rendering freezes in 0.4.12 too, perhaps not as often though
20:05 OldCoder Ah. He adds that the runtime message is: Client::handleCommand_ActiveObjectMessages: caught SerializationError: deSerializeString: couldn't read all chars
20:05 OldCoder If anybody is able to comment, I will work on debugging this with him
20:05 OldCoder This seems to be a power user in Romania BTW
20:09 OldCoder Looking at the code, I'd need to speculate myself it's an internationalization issue
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21:19 est31 OldCoder, doesn't that error output more?
21:19 est31 I've thought it actually outputs an actual size
21:19 est31 either way, the issue is that he might have too much blocks
21:19 est31 or mods
21:20 est31 or too large media files
21:20 est31 but we are still tweaking the size, so it would be interesting to have it
21:20 OldCoder est1, that is all, it appears; I have a screenshot. What I will do is debug it with him.
21:21 OldCoder I suspect internationalization
21:21 est31 np
21:21 est31 no
21:21 est31 that isnt the problem
21:21 OldCoder No? Not into a JSON file?
21:21 OldCoder There is a Serialize Wide routine
21:21 est31 what does this have to do with json
21:21 est31 this is about ActiveObjectMessages
21:22 est31 there is no json for those
21:22 OldCoder Ah
21:22 OldCoder Moment, getting PNG
21:22 est31 seems to be too many mobs
21:22 OldCoder http://minetest.org/serialize.png
21:23 OldCoder Too many mobs might produce that context est1? ^
21:23 OldCoder See screenshot
21:23 OldCoder I have a user who is willing to help debug; what would you like us to try?
21:24 est31 its not precisely a bug
21:24 est31 but I think hmmmm added actual limit printing to the error msg
21:24 est31 seems I'm mistaken
21:26 est31 OldCoder, what version is the server?
21:26 OldCoder Latest git
21:26 OldCoder Moment
21:26 OldCoder Well, recent. Looks like I built it fresh on August 9.
21:27 OldCoder What's the GUI key to report the exact server string?
21:27 OldCoder It just says 0.4.13-dev
21:28 OldCoder est31, ^
21:28 est31 HybridDog gets the error as well...
21:28 est31 OldCoder, type /status
21:28 OldCoder Says 0.4.13-dev
21:28 OldCoder Git date was about 150809
21:29 est31 0.4.13-dev is after the 0.4.13 release
21:29 est31 that cant be
21:29 est31 before we had 0.4.12-dev
21:29 OldCoder Checking sources
21:29 est31 we have 0.4.13 dev since this week
21:30 OldCoder Checking sources
21:30 OldCoder And yet this is what it says :-)
21:30 OldCoder Moment
21:31 OldCoder In fact you made the latest commit...
21:31 OldCoder Author: est31 <MTest31@outlook.com>
21:31 OldCoder Date:   Sun Aug 9 23:49:39 2015 +0200
21:31 OldCoder Continue with 0.4.13-dev
21:31 OldCoder Shall I update?
21:31 est31 ouch
21:32 est31 seems you pulled in those few hours where we had this release at HEAD
21:32 OldCoder Heh
21:32 OldCoder So this is the wrong release?
21:32 est31 and then hmmmm reverted it
21:32 OldCoder What is there now and should I rebuild?
21:33 est31 yes you should
21:33 OldCoder What will happen or should I do with the error message?
21:33 est31 its more likely a server error than a client error
21:33 est31 can you reproduce it?
21:34 est31 perhaps open a bug for it, HybridDog seems to get it as well
21:34 OldCoder Yes with the player's assistance. This is w_laenger in Germany.
21:34 OldCoder So, the issue is observed but the cause is not known? It is not too many mobs?
21:35 est31 no
21:35 est31 something else
21:37 OldCoder Recompiling. I will report back. Thank you.
21:38 OldCoder It will not be rapid progress; I need to coordinate with a player in Germany but he is interested.
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23:20 hmmmm [05:24 PM] <est31> but I think hmmmm added actual limit printing to the error msg
23:20 hmmmm I did, but only if the error is actually "the message is too big to (de)serialize"
23:20 est31 yes, realized that later
23:20 hmmmm that error in the screenshot clearly says "couldn't read all chars"
23:20 hmmmm i.e. you've got an invalid pascal string
23:21 est31 pascal?
23:21 est31 dont know pascals memory layout
23:21 hmmmm a string where the length is prefixed to the actual string data is a pascal string
23:21 hmmmm as opposed to a C-string
23:22 est31 arent c++ strings this, too?
23:22 hmmmm C++ std::string?
23:22 est31 I guess its called pascal strings because pascal is older
23:22 hmmmm no, it's an opaque class
23:22 est31 but C hasnt invented that way of strings either have they?
23:22 hmmmm C invented C-strings
23:23 hmmmm null terminator indicates the end of a string
23:23 hmmmm this makes string manipulation functions very simple to write, at the cost of an O(n) length lookup, O(n) concatenation, buffer overrun horror stories, countless off-by-one errors, etc.
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23:24 est31 and you can have arbitrarily long strings
23:25 est31 hmmmm, does pascal actually specify the memory layout?
23:25 hmmmm yes
23:25 est31 and c++ doesnt?
23:25 hmmmm absolutely not..
23:25 est31 then it makes some sense to call them pascal strings
23:26 est31 but it would be interesting to have an implementation of c++ that implements std::string as C-strings
23:26 hmmmm why..?
23:26 est31 because if it doesnt implement them as c-strings it has to store the length some way
23:27 est31 so the only way the spec can be fulfilled is by doing it c-string way, or with similar costs
23:27 hmmmm storing the length along with data doesn't make it a pascal string
23:27 hmmmm pascal strings have definite memory layout
23:28 hmmmm there is absolutely nothing stopping you from writing a class that stores a char array with a length field
23:28 hmmmm if that's non-POD, which std::strings are not, that's not going to have a well-defined memory layout...
23:29 hmmmm some std::string implementations have a built-in buffer for small strings
23:29 hmmmm then above a certain length threshhold they use memory allocated with new[]
23:29 est31 pascal doesnt store strings, it stores arrays
23:29 hmmmm some std::string implementations also have COW
23:29 hmmmm std::string says absolutely nothing about a memory layout
23:30 hmmmm pascal does
23:30 hmmmm it's built into the compiler
23:31 est31 where is the pascal spec?
23:31 hmmmm somewhere on google i suppose
23:31 est31 there are tons of pascal flavours
23:36 est31 ok lets stop this
23:36 est31 perhaps include the actual counts that differed?
23:36 est31 "read 5, but claimed to get 10"
23:37 hmmmm lol no
23:37 hmmmm it's more like "read 2, but claimed to get 0xD74C"
23:37 hmmmm it's clearly memory corruption
23:37 hmmmm because it mostly seems to work, i'm not too concerned with it
23:37 est31 you have to be very sure until you give hardware the fault
23:38 hmmmm ??
23:38 hmmmm i never claimed the hardware was at fault..
23:38 est31 <hmmmm> it's clearly memory corruption
23:38 hmmmm how does that sentence imply a hardware problem
23:39 est31 ah
23:39 est31 nvm
23:39 est31 still, why are you that sure
23:40 hmmmm there's no other actual explanation
23:40 hmmmm somehow something overwrites that memory
23:41 hmmmm it could be a use-after-free
23:41 est31 from how I get it, memory corruption is this kind of thing that can happen if you use undefined behaviour
23:42 est31 but there can be other parts that cause problems too
23:42 est31 e.g. is the size written the right way?
23:42 hmmmm it's useless to speculate on the exact cause
23:42 est31 perhaps only one active object message type is affected?
23:42 est31 and thats super seldomly used
23:42 hmmmm it's not
23:43 hmmmm this happens at the networking layer somehow
23:43 hmmmm i had vanessae capture logs of raw AOMs before sending
23:44 est31 it still would be interesting to have the actual count
23:44 est31 if its a memory corruption as you claim, the number will likely be very high
23:45 est31 if its another bug, it might perhaps be related to the number, e.g. always higher by two
23:46 hmmmm it happens only on vanessae's server where the number of objects is very high
23:46 hmmmm VERY high
23:46 hmmmm my client gets DDoSed with active object messages from vanessaes server
23:46 est31 I have found a fix for a related bug also by simply looking at the size, seeing that its as double as much than the actual payload, and then correctly speculating that the size gets +=ed twice
23:47 hmmmm maybe
23:48 hmmmm as that bug doesn't actually affect gameplay and it only happens rarely, it's on my backburner
23:48 hmmmm you can chase it if you'd like
23:48 est31 as long as you dont wait until 2 days before release until you give it the blocker labell
23:49 est31 only to stall the date
23:50 est31 either way, I'm right now doing non-core engine stuff, so wont help too much with the engine
23:52 hmmmm it's not a blocker, but it would still be nice if non-blocking bugs got solved...
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