| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:01 |
paramat |
merge complete |
| 00:02 |
RealBadAngel |
#3079 should be merged for it too |
| 00:02 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3079 -- Remove use of engine sent texture tiling flags - theyre no longer needed by RealBadAngel |
| 00:04 |
paramat |
yeah |
| 00:12 |
paramat |
RealBadAngel, shall i go ahead and merge 642 and we can change tree tops later? or are you now updating that PR? |
| 00:12 |
VanessaE |
NOOOOOO |
| 00:12 |
VanessaE |
642 is a no-go |
| 00:13 |
paramat |
because of issues stated earlier? |
| 00:13 |
VanessaE |
yes |
| 00:13 |
VanessaE |
it will break nearly every existing texture pack and some mods as well |
| 00:13 |
RealBadAngel |
it doesnt break anything |
| 00:14 |
RealBadAngel |
texture packs makers shall update their TPs in order to use engine features |
| 00:15 |
paramat |
i don't completely understand the arguments. texture packs without normals means just don't use normalmaps, seems reasonable |
| 00:15 |
VanessaE |
no |
| 00:15 |
VanessaE |
texture packs without normals means they'll end up using these new default normals |
| 00:16 |
VanessaE |
(if the relevant shaders are enabled) |
| 00:16 |
RealBadAngel |
VanessaE, your request means effectively disable parallax mapping |
| 00:16 |
VanessaE |
where did I say that? |
| 00:16 |
RealBadAngel |
it does mean that |
| 00:16 |
VanessaE |
supply normals but don't load them if the matching diffuse/color texture is in a different folder |
| 00:16 |
VanessaE |
what's so hard about that? |
| 00:17 |
VanessaE |
same folder? load them, by all means. |
| 00:17 |
RealBadAngel |
ability to replace one map with the other |
| 00:17 |
RealBadAngel |
you want to break another feature |
| 00:17 |
VanessaE |
better to force those few people to supply copies of the matching texture than to force every texture author to supply 300+ blank normalmap images |
| 00:18 |
paramat |
we already have some normalmaps so a few more in 642 doesn't change anything, whether the implementation is right or wrong |
| 00:19 |
VanessaE |
then fix the implementation before 0.4.13 goes out |
| 00:20 |
RealBadAngel |
fix the feature by disabling it? |
| 00:20 |
VanessaE |
... |
| 00:20 |
RealBadAngel |
every tp out there is incomplete |
| 00:21 |
RealBadAngel |
i should rather remove autogen from core - because its absurdly costly - than implement your request |
| 00:24 |
paramat |
well normalmaps are an optional shader thing, many/most texture pack authors won't be adding normalmaps, using such a pack means players should not enable bumpmaps |
| 00:25 |
RealBadAngel |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8714 |
| 00:25 |
paramat |
certainly the implementation could possibly be improved, we need other's input on this |
| 00:25 |
RealBadAngel |
VanessaE, your proposal would mean above impossible |
| 00:26 |
VanessaE |
RealBadAngel: so? special handling of certain corner cases is not a bad thing. |
| 00:26 |
VanessaE |
that ^^^ is one such place. |
| 00:28 |
paramat |
perhaps *ideally* if a texture pack does not supply a matching normalmap for a texture, the normalmap should be set to flat |
| 00:28 |
VanessaE |
that' |
| 00:28 |
VanessaE |
that's what I was proposing |
| 00:28 |
VanessaE |
hence the "same folder" requirement |
| 00:28 |
paramat |
yeah agreed |
| 00:29 |
RealBadAngel |
while i can agree to use flat normal map i cant for "same folder" |
| 00:31 |
est31 |
ok #3081 is out |
| 00:31 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3081 -- Fix inventory replace bug by est31 |
| 00:32 |
paramat |
sorting this out may have to wait for 0.4.14, how it is at the moment may not be perfect but also not broken |
| 00:32 |
paramat |
(talking about normalmaps) |
| 00:34 |
paramat |
i will merge 642 later since it is just extra normalmaps |
| 00:40 |
paramat |
back later |
| 00:40 |
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paramat left #minetest-dev |
| 00:42 |
Wayward_One |
est31: have you seen my latest comment yet? |
| 00:44 |
est31 |
Wayward_One, yes |
| 00:44 |
est31 |
I can however not reproduce the bug, with that apk |
| 00:44 |
Wayward_One |
Hmm |
| 00:44 |
RealBadAngel |
ive googled a bit for that |
| 00:45 |
est31 |
seems we'll have to hotfix it. |
| 00:45 |
RealBadAngel |
looks like its something about texturing |
| 00:46 |
RealBadAngel |
http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43774 |
| 00:47 |
RealBadAngel |
this seems to be related |
| 00:47 |
est31 |
VanessaE, can you check the new error message in 3058? |
| 00:57 |
VanessaE |
I like the message, but shouldn't you store that in a variable somewhere and print *that* (plus "technical code" bit for the first call)? |
| 00:58 |
est31 |
? |
| 00:59 |
est31 |
"that" |
| 00:59 |
VanessaE |
you print the exact same message twice, with some add-on text in the first case. |
| 00:59 |
VanessaE |
or rather, you supply it twice. |
| 01:00 |
est31 |
Perhaps one can argue that as its two different sentences, all languages can separate |
| 01:00 |
VanessaE |
shouldn't you do something like msg=""Oooops! Seems that mod list download failed. It might be that this is a problem with the website, caused by the descision to take the mod store offline, or a bug in the game." and then fgettext_ne(msg.." The technical code is: ")..result or fgettext_ne(msg) ? |
| 01:00 |
VanessaE |
something like that anyways |
| 01:01 |
VanessaE |
ok, fair enough |
| 01:02 |
est31 |
refresh |
| 01:02 |
est31 |
better now? |
| 01:02 |
VanessaE |
right, exactly that |
| 01:03 |
VanessaE |
I'm good with that, then |
| 01:03 |
est31 |
slightly adjusted the messag |
| 01:03 |
est31 |
e |
| 01:04 |
est31 |
now waiting for hmmmm to approve 3081 and 3058 |
| 01:04 |
VanessaE |
better. |
| 01:04 |
est31 |
(or any other devs) |
| 01:05 |
VanessaE |
he's still taking a shit :) |
| 01:05 |
est31 |
long shit |
| 01:05 |
VanessaE |
lincoln log ;) |
| 01:35 |
hmmmm |
3081 looks good to me |
| 01:43 |
est31 |
seems I'll have to re-apply https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/60f31ad52348c53209701d0112f9f809018f7188 |
| 01:43 |
est31 |
@ least Wayward_One can reproduce a bug with the method |
| 01:45 |
hmmmm |
okay then |
| 01:45 |
hmmmm |
that for the blank menu screen bug? |
| 01:46 |
est31 |
yes |
| 01:47 |
hmmmm |
as for the error message text on 3058 |
| 01:47 |
hmmmm |
that's "friendly" but it doesn't exactly comfort users |
| 01:47 |
hmmmm |
"oops, something went wrong and it could be any number of things" |
| 01:47 |
hmmmm |
how about something like |
| 01:48 |
hmmmm |
"Oops, something went wrong with getting the mod database list!" |
| 01:48 |
hmmmm |
"Try again at some later time." |
| 01:48 |
hmmmm |
"If the problem persists, it may be a bug. |
| 01:48 |
est31 |
no |
| 01:48 |
est31 |
operational issues may be a bug too |
| 01:49 |
hmmmm |
do you want error reports up the wazoo |
| 01:49 |
est31 |
but "try again at some later time sounds good" |
| 01:49 |
hmmmm |
cause this is how you get them |
| 01:49 |
hmmmm |
est any modstore PRs are your responsibility from now on |
| 01:49 |
hmmmm |
problem reports |
| 01:49 |
est31 |
no thank you |
| 01:49 |
est31 |
the easiest way to not get error reports is by just not having that button |
| 01:50 |
est31 |
the "mod store" button |
| 01:50 |
VanessaE |
I tend to agree |
| 01:50 |
hmmmm |
well I don't get it |
| 01:50 |
hmmmm |
did celeron just decide to get rid of MMDB? |
| 01:50 |
VanessaE |
didn't it get lost when xyz gave up hosting the forum? |
| 01:50 |
est31 |
VanessaE, yes |
| 01:51 |
est31 |
(AFAIK) |
| 01:51 |
VanessaE |
plus let's face it, iqual was....rather stubborn about how mods are added and approved. |
| 01:51 |
est31 |
iqual? |
| 01:51 |
VanessaE |
iqualfragilew |
| 01:51 |
VanessaE |
-w |
| 01:51 |
hmmmm |
okay |
| 01:51 |
VanessaE |
the guy who managed the actual website used for submitting mods to the store |
| 01:51 |
hmmmm |
soooooo |
| 01:52 |
est31 |
ok |
| 01:52 |
hmmmm |
what do you two want to do |
| 01:52 |
hmmmm |
are we not confident in the MMDB coming back |
| 01:52 |
VanessaE |
cornernote is working on something that should be usable to replace it |
| 01:52 |
est31 |
the future of the mmdb is something like that bower thingy |
| 01:52 |
VanessaE |
but it's not ready right now |
| 01:52 |
est31 |
ea |
| 01:52 |
est31 |
yea* |
| 01:52 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 01:53 |
hmmmm |
disable the button if you want |
| 01:53 |
hmmmm |
just remember the entire version is getting shipped like this |
| 01:53 |
est31 |
but enabling untrusted mods needs security to be set on by default |
| 01:57 |
est31 |
kahrl, sfan5, other devs, your opinions on removing mmdb support entirely? Should mmdb ever come back? VanessaE and me say no. |
| 01:58 |
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| 02:02 |
est31 |
Wayward_One, can you try a commit for me? |
| 02:02 |
Wayward_One |
Sure |
| 02:03 |
est31 |
this one : https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/6452db11706a337124d6c485b4a66478bc8b42e9 |
| 02:03 |
Wayward_One |
Ok |
| 02:09 |
paramat |
RealBadAngel i'll merge 642 in a moment |
| 02:11 |
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| 02:22 |
paramat |
now merging game 642 |
| 02:26 |
paramat |
merge complete |
| 02:27 |
est31 |
and, I almost forgot, today's an important date |
| 02:27 |
est31 |
the website competition ends |
| 02:27 |
est31 |
The astounding number of 0 (zero) entries were officially submitted |
| 02:28 |
est31 |
I only have two half-official entries |
| 02:28 |
est31 |
one from Calinou |
| 02:29 |
est31 |
one from srifqi |
| 02:30 |
est31 |
they both lack the "post in topic" requirement |
| 02:30 |
est31 |
but its a very formal one, so I guess both can count as submissions |
| 02:39 |
paramat |
apparently 3079 can go in now that game 641 is in |
| 02:40 |
VanessaE |
#3079 |
| 02:40 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3079 -- Remove use of engine sent texture tiling flags - theyre no longer needed by RealBadAngel |
| 02:41 |
est31 |
game#641 |
| 02:41 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/641 -- Add tiling info for grass nodes by RealBadAngel |
| 02:41 |
est31 |
why does 3079 have a requirement for 641 to be merged? |
| 02:42 |
paramat |
perhaps not, i don't understand the issues |
| 02:44 |
est31 |
3079 is unrelated from how I see it |
| 02:44 |
est31 |
they both cover tiling flags though |
| 02:44 |
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| 02:44 |
paramat |
i misunderstood RBA then |
| 02:45 |
VanessaE |
the way I read it, 3079 removes obsoleted code. |
| 02:46 |
VanessaE |
and 641 adds in node-def-based flags to replace it. |
| 02:46 |
est31 |
also, it seems that 3079 is a speedup |
| 02:46 |
est31 |
however, I wonder whether we should merge it so short before a release |
| 02:47 |
VanessaE |
may as well |
| 02:47 |
VanessaE |
if release has to be put off a day or two as a result, that's not very harmful; it can always be reverted if push comes to shove. |
| 02:49 |
est31 |
no |
| 02:49 |
est31 |
reverting release commits is no good |
| 03:09 |
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| 03:20 |
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| 03:21 |
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| 03:35 |
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| 04:39 |
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| 05:11 |
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| 05:15 |
est31 |
ok plan for today: lets determine what website to chose from the two, then let make celeron55 do the switch, and wait for paramat/other game devs to label the 0.4.13 release |
| 05:15 |
est31 |
also, determine whether to ship with mmdb, or whether to fix it, or what the error messages should contain, if not fixing mmdb |
| 05:20 |
hmmmm |
i really would prefer for mmdb to stay in minetest |
| 05:25 |
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| 05:27 |
est31 |
The current mmdb implementation is very bad. |
| 05:27 |
est31 |
e.g. its fullscreen for some reason |
| 05:28 |
est31 |
which means the tab buttons are right where the minetest version text is |
| 05:28 |
est31 |
also, the mods in mmdb don't reflect the rich set of mods minetest has |
| 05:29 |
est31 |
also, we should have a subgame store as well |
| 05:29 |
est31 |
chosing mods is hard |
| 05:29 |
est31 |
perhaps however the subgames should even be shipped with minetest |
| 05:29 |
est31 |
but then people who count every single bit wont like it |
| 05:32 |
sfan5 |
est31: mmdb needs a lot of work, but i'm not for removing support entirely |
| 05:34 |
est31 |
I don't want to make a release with mmdb not being online. |
| 05:34 |
est31 |
at the end of the day celeron55 says he doesnt want to host mmdb, and our users have a non functional button |
| 05:35 |
est31 |
hmmmm even fears that we would drown in error messages. |
| 05:36 |
hmmmm |
celeron actually said that he's not interested in continuing MMDB? |
| 05:36 |
hmmmm |
ugh |
| 05:36 |
hmmmm |
dammit |
| 05:37 |
est31 |
dunno |
| 05:39 |
est31 |
thats part of the things i want to find out |
| 05:39 |
est31 |
and get cleared |
| 05:39 |
nanepiwo |
who hosts the skins database? |
| 05:39 |
sfan5 |
which skin database? |
| 05:40 |
est31 |
whats the url again? |
| 05:40 |
nanepiwo |
minetest.fensta.bplaced.net |
| 05:41 |
est31 |
seems to be an user named "addi". |
| 05:41 |
est31 |
you can contact them in the forum thread I guess: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=4497 |
| 05:42 |
nanepiwo |
I see |
| 05:47 |
hmmmm |
oh speaking of skins |
| 05:47 |
hmmmm |
est31, you know vanessae's skin compatibility problem? |
| 05:47 |
hmmmm |
is that a blocker or not? |
| 05:48 |
est31 |
yes I know of that backface problem, if it is what you mean |
| 05:48 |
est31 |
I dont think it is a blocker |
| 05:48 |
hmmmm |
yeah |
| 05:48 |
hmmmm |
ok fair enough |
| 05:49 |
hmmmm |
i don't either tbh |
| 05:49 |
hmmmm |
if you get everything in, we can release tomorrow or whatever |
| 05:50 |
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| 05:50 |
est31 |
tomorrow for you |
| 05:50 |
est31 |
I hope to release when paramat gets around next, and we have cleared the mmdb issue |
| 05:51 |
est31 |
before you go offline: what would be an acceptable message for my fix PR? |
| 05:52 |
est31 |
I remember you critizised that the message listed the number of possible reasons |
| 05:53 |
est31 |
my motivation to add that was so that I both can say "it can be because we had disabled mmdb" |
| 05:53 |
est31 |
and not say "forget mmmdb, we have turned it off" |
| 05:53 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 05:54 |
hmmmm |
so the main problem we're trying to solve is to let users know that the MMDB does exist, it might not be working *right now*, but try again sometime in the future before filing a bug report about it |
| 05:54 |
hmmmm |
so it needs to be reassuring |
| 05:54 |
hmmmm |
as well as provide data about real errors if they are real |
| 05:55 |
est31 |
yes |
| 05:55 |
hmmmm |
I honestly don't know |
| 05:55 |
hmmmm |
I agree with your stance against basing the error message off of HTTP error codes now |
| 05:55 |
hmmmm |
it could be a legitimate bug |
| 05:56 |
hmmmm |
if the user gets a 404 how do we know that's caused by the webserver or a bug in minetest requesting the wrong page |
| 05:56 |
hmmmm |
etc. |
| 05:56 |
hmmmm |
dare we ask the users to troubleshoot on their own a little bit first before submitting an error report? |
| 05:58 |
hmmmm |
"Oops! Unfortunately we are having trouble retrieving the MMDB." |
| 05:58 |
hmmmm |
<technical error message here> |
| 05:58 |
hmmmm |
" - The MMDB could be down temporarily. Try again soon." |
| 05:59 |
hmmmm |
" - If you have not been able to load the MMDB after several attempts, check your computer's network connection." |
| 05:59 |
hmmmm |
?? |
| 05:59 |
hmmmm |
or something like that |
| 06:01 |
kahrl |
how about inserting some comment like <!-- mmdb_disabled = true --> into the 404 page for .../mmdb/* |
| 06:01 |
kahrl |
which is checked by the client and changes the error message |
| 06:02 |
est31 |
thats a good proposal |
| 06:03 |
hmmmm |
yeah but we don't control the website |
| 06:04 |
kahrl |
we don't? |
| 06:06 |
est31 |
celeron55 does |
| 06:06 |
kahrl |
yeah, he's been around quite often lately |
| 06:07 |
est31 |
we will have to not use mmdb if we want to run a moderation less mod repository |
| 06:07 |
est31 |
otherwise people with old clients could install malware with a single click |
| 06:08 |
kahrl |
good point |
| 06:08 |
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| 06:09 |
est31 |
ok made the official announcement in the forum https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=12843&p=187611#p187611 |
| 06:12 |
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| 06:14 |
est31 |
vote your favourite, you have 7 days |
| 06:19 |
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| 06:31 |
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| 06:49 |
celeron55 |
i really can't get the point of srifqi's entry, but Calinou's is surprisingly competent; it's better than the current one in some ways and not awful in others |
| 06:51 |
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| 06:55 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: i haven't said i am not interested in continuing mmdb; not immediately setting it up was a result of many things; but now that it has been away for some time and we are starting to see stuff like minetest-bower, i feel like trying to get mmdb going again is not worth it in the long term |
| 06:55 |
hmmmm |
alright, fine |
| 06:56 |
celeron55 |
or may not be; the way this is implemented needs to be reconsidered |
| 06:56 |
hmmmm |
remove the button |
| 06:57 |
hmmmm |
@ est31 |
| 06:58 |
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| 06:59 |
rubenwardy |
mmdb has been offline for 8 months, i don't think it's coming back |
| 07:00 |
celeron55 |
if it is decided that mmdb is indeed the best choice, i can set it up again, seeing that its authentication has been separated from the forum database and some of the other issues fixed |
| 07:01 |
rubenwardy |
hmmmm: I'd like to see hotbar selection changes in client side lua. Also CAO control |
| 07:02 |
hmmmm |
you'll be able to do some rudimentary CAO manipulations like rotation changes and slight movements |
| 07:02 |
rubenwardy |
celeron55 in it's current state mmdb is not practical. It takes too long to add a mod, it takes to long to release a new version |
| 07:03 |
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| 07:04 |
rubenwardy1 |
I think that client side lua should focus on client side prediction for mods and visual effects. |
| 07:04 |
Guest18502 |
It should be possible to make client only visual objects (like SceneNodes) |
| 07:04 |
Guest18502 |
ffs |
| 07:05 |
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| 07:05 |
RealBadAngel |
with #3079 tiling flags are still here, buts its enough to set material flags in the engine, no point doing the same using other method in shaders |
| 07:05 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3079 -- Remove use of engine sent texture tiling flags - theyre no longer needed by RealBadAngel |
| 07:06 |
RealBadAngel |
but for the flags to be working, they have to be used in tiles that need that, like dirt with grass - 641 does that |
| 07:07 |
Guest18502 |
Minetest is currently too limited as a game engine, really you can only make simple Minecraft clones. I want to see more diverse gameplay. |
| 07:07 |
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| 07:09 |
celeron55 |
rubenwardy_: stuff like custom player controls should be possible at some point too |
| 07:09 |
celeron55 |
and custom player physics |
| 07:10 |
celeron55 |
i mean, i'm not requesting features; just saying this is important in order to support any other things than walking on the ground |
| 07:10 |
hmmmm |
my ultimate goal is to make minetest into an FPS |
| 07:12 |
hmmmm |
not different games, different genres altogether |
| 07:12 |
hmmmm |
we can emulate 2d games by restricting camera angles |
| 07:12 |
celeron55 |
emulating 2d games is dumb in my opinion; there's way too much overhead in all the 3d handling for that |
| 07:13 |
hmmmm |
we can do RTSes by restricting the camera angle and Y position of the local player |
| 07:13 |
celeron55 |
(but i guess it should be possible if somebody insists) |
| 07:13 |
hmmmm |
and units can be selected by punching them :p |
| 07:13 |
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| 07:14 |
celeron55 |
well, ideally "punching" shouldn't really be a non-removable engine thing |
| 07:15 |
celeron55 |
however, by going that way, i feel like minetest will become a worse version of Buildat 8) |
| 07:15 |
hmmmm |
maybe |
| 07:16 |
celeron55 |
but buildat has way too many design issues as where i left it that using it doesn't make sense either |
| 07:16 |
celeron55 |
i guess continuing minetest's iterative history will work out fine enough |
| 07:16 |
hmmmm |
right |
| 07:16 |
hmmmm |
but the point of the iterations are to work toward a goal |
| 07:16 |
hmmmm |
my own personal goal is to have the ultimate flexibility where we can actully tell people it's a game engine with a straight face |
| 07:17 |
hmmmm |
and not look stupid |
| 07:17 |
celeron55 |
i think that's the only way minetest can stay relevant and interesting in the long term |
| 07:18 |
celeron55 |
there's going to be a group of people that still care about punching trees, but it will get very small and be limited to practically only children (because punching trees will always be a new thing to new people) |
| 07:19 |
celeron55 |
and big corporations are better at pushing things to children than us |
| 07:19 |
celeron55 |
and children are bad contributors anyway, and MT can't live without contributors |
| 07:22 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: when are you planning to have an initial version of client-side lua? |
| 07:22 |
hmmmm |
whenever it gets done |
| 07:22 |
celeron55 |
because i'm pretty sure i'm going to end up contributing to it once it exists, but i might not necessarily be starting it |
| 07:23 |
celeron55 |
or, well, i could start it, if nobody else is planning to |
| 07:23 |
hmmmm |
i already started it |
| 07:24 |
hmmmm |
i don't know if you read this anywhere yet but it's basically a separate thread that does nothing but runs lua |
| 07:24 |
hmmmm |
events are asynchronously added to the event queue and then callbacks are run in lua |
| 07:26 |
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| 07:26 |
celeron55 |
sounds interesting |
| 07:26 |
hmmmm |
the way lua works on the server side is that callbacks can be used to filter events before they actually happen |
| 07:27 |
hmmmm |
this is really nice and clean design but it's dog slow |
| 07:27 |
hmmmm |
it's unacceptable for a real time application like a game rendering thread |
| 07:27 |
hmmmm |
so you'll get an event such as CSEVT_PLAYER_PUNCH for example which has the pos |
| 07:28 |
hmmmm |
and then in that event callback you'll create a particle spawner or whatever that spews out a bunch of sparks |
| 07:29 |
hmmmm |
or if you get a CSEVT_INVENTORY_MOVE you'll have to be aware of the fact that this event is telling you that "something happened" rather than "this specific thing is happening" |
| 07:29 |
hmmmm |
which means checking the current state of the inventory before modifying it |
| 07:29 |
hmmmm |
I'm just using these as dumb contrieved examples |
| 07:32 |
hmmmm |
while this does seem like a big problem i don't think it will be too bad in practice because the game rendering loop takes far longer than the lua loop should |
| 07:33 |
hmmmm |
i don't doubt you're going to have 33ms screen updates and for the lua callbacks to finish way before then |
| 07:34 |
hmmmm |
even if a couple frames do pass by, it's not likely that the object or node or whatever you intend to reference is going to magically disappear within that timeframe |
| 07:34 |
hmmmm |
and if it does disappear, then so what |
| 07:34 |
hmmmm |
just abort the operation |
| 07:34 |
celeron55 |
well, just keep in mind that if you do notice that it will become somehow wonky, this is the time to redesign it |
| 07:35 |
hmmmm |
nothing can be wonkier than the way modding currently is |
| 07:35 |
hmmmm |
sorry |
| 07:35 |
celeron55 |
sorry? |
| 07:35 |
hmmmm |
I don't mean to offend you |
| 07:36 |
celeron55 |
"sorry" offended me, but nothing prior to that didn't; why do you assume i take this as a personal thing? |
| 07:36 |
hmmmm |
because the entire premise behind the way current scripting works is a bad idea |
| 07:36 |
hmmmm |
you're relying on incompetent 15 year olds to write code that finishes execution within a finite amount of time |
| 07:36 |
hmmmm |
or else the entire server gets hung up |
| 07:37 |
celeron55 |
that's not a reason why i would take any comments about the current modding system personally |
| 07:37 |
celeron55 |
the current system sucks; but also many other systems will suck |
| 07:37 |
hmmmm |
i feel as if this is the least bad |
| 07:38 |
celeron55 |
let's consider for example this: how are you planning to allow implementing custom player physics in it? |
| 07:39 |
hmmmm |
i haven't considered physics at all |
| 07:39 |
celeron55 |
stuff like that probably has to go to be actually invoked from the physics thread (which is the main thread currently) |
| 07:40 |
celeron55 |
stuff in for example there can probably be completely separate from the other client-side scripts, or if they need to communicate, they could use the event system |
| 07:41 |
celeron55 |
or maybe the global settings or something like that; just anything else than direct calls |
| 07:41 |
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| 07:41 |
hmmmm |
physics would have to handle the way a CAO moves |
| 07:41 |
celeron55 |
same thing for custom player controls; but that might be practically the same thing as physics |
| 07:42 |
hmmmm |
the moment that CAO hits something, that generates an event that that client game scripting can handle |
| 07:42 |
hmmmm |
I don't know, maybe the physics thread like you were suggesting can do soft real-time calculations |
| 07:42 |
hmmmm |
every so many MS |
| 07:43 |
hmmmm |
how about 50 ms |
| 07:43 |
celeron55 |
what i'm saying is that there will need to be client-side scripts that have to be called immediately, getting a result from them immedidately; and they will probably have to be a separate thing assuming the bulk of the scripts are run (probably appropriately) in a separate threaad |
| 07:43 |
hmmmm |
every 50 ms, the physics script executes for some type of CAO |
| 07:43 |
celeron55 |
-a |
| 07:44 |
hmmmm |
well what the client side scripts are mostly intended for are things like |
| 07:44 |
hmmmm |
player punches something |
| 07:44 |
hmmmm |
makes a sound event |
| 07:44 |
hmmmm |
err, makes a punch event, which the script thread then starts a sound for |
| 07:44 |
hmmmm |
or maybe spawns some particles there |
| 07:44 |
hmmmm |
maybe adds a dynamic light |
| 07:44 |
hmmmm |
etc. |
| 07:45 |
celeron55 |
things like what i am describing will be kind of like the next step up from configuration; like configuration settings that are simple functions instead of static values |
| 07:45 |
celeron55 |
maybe they don't have access to anything else than a very strict environment where they can't cause much delays or trouble; but custom player controls and physics probably need those |
| 07:46 |
hmmmm |
physics is going to be difficult no matter what model we use |
| 07:47 |
celeron55 |
well, frankly, not really |
| 07:47 |
hmmmm |
the primary issue is that we're relying on an un-preemptable script that's already dog slow to work in a real time manner |
| 07:47 |
celeron55 |
not much more difficult than anything else in this |
| 07:48 |
celeron55 |
that script isn't doing any of the world generation or pathfinding that generally kills the minetest server timing |
| 07:48 |
hmmmm |
it's okay if the lua scripts process subtracting 10 hp from a player 300 ms later |
| 07:48 |
hmmmm |
but it's not okay if 300ms pass when the CAO was supposed to hit the wall and bounce back |
| 07:49 |
celeron55 |
in any case, this is a thing that has to be implemnted and you can't just sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist |
| 07:49 |
hmmmm |
it would be so much more palatable if this weren't in lua and we could rely on the physics algorithms to be somewhat fast |
| 07:49 |
celeron55 |
we can provide a library of fast algorithms to lua |
| 07:49 |
hmmmm |
sure, no problem |
| 07:50 |
hmmmm |
the problem is the skill of the lua modders |
| 07:50 |
celeron55 |
when something becomes popular, it will be optimized |
| 07:50 |
hmmmm |
no matter how fast your actual functions that do the real work are, they're going to do something stupid and degrade the entire user experience |
| 07:50 |
celeron55 |
those physics things will be rather simple and an easy target to optimization |
| 07:50 |
celeron55 |
and an easy target for profiling |
| 07:50 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 07:50 |
hmmmm |
I noticed that a lot of popular mods are unoptimal right now |
| 07:50 |
hmmmm |
because they work well enough |
| 07:51 |
hmmmm |
enough of those good-enough mods get piled onto something like vanessae's server and they create something horrifying |
| 07:51 |
celeron55 |
you're going to get that kind of problems with the separately threaded ones too; they will block each other from running and cause havoc that way |
| 07:52 |
celeron55 |
you can't prevent stupid |
| 07:52 |
hmmmm |
in any case |
| 07:52 |
celeron55 |
stupid will happen; just make things nice for good modders |
| 07:52 |
hmmmm |
we have to deal with the ramnifications of stupid |
| 07:52 |
celeron55 |
yes, but don't make that your primary goal |
| 07:52 |
celeron55 |
otherwise you'll make Java or something |
| 07:54 |
hmmmm |
i feel like custom physics is an entirely different requirement to be honest |
| 07:54 |
hmmmm |
it's out of scope for what i'm doing right now |
| 07:54 |
hmmmm |
it's nice to keep in mind but if i try to make everything work all at once it's going to fail |
| 07:55 |
celeron55 |
you can probably consider it out of scope |
| 07:55 |
hmmmm |
any complex system that is in a working state evolved from a once unsophisticated system years ago |
| 07:55 |
celeron55 |
just don't try to solve it at all with the separate thread and maybe i'll do it or something |
| 07:55 |
hmmmm |
oh, you're interested in minetest again or something? :/ |
| 07:56 |
celeron55 |
am i not allowed to? |
| 07:56 |
rubenwardy |
client side lua makes Minetest more interesting |
| 07:56 |
hmmmm |
you don't develop things you don't use |
| 07:56 |
hmmmm |
heh |
| 07:56 |
celeron55 |
well what if i would use custom physics and player controls |
| 07:57 |
hmmmm |
i'd be really happy for you to start developing once again but you can't flake out like everybody else does |
| 07:57 |
hmmmm |
there seriously needs to be more than 1 consistently active developer |
| 07:58 |
hmmmm |
else it's going to end up like sapier where half the job got done and then he lost interest and dropped off the face of minetest-dev |
| 07:58 |
hmmmm |
also zeno was supposed to abstract away irrlicht and he disappeared |
| 07:59 |
celeron55 |
well frankly abstracting away irrlicht is very tedious and difficult |
| 07:59 |
celeron55 |
can't blame him |
| 08:00 |
celeron55 |
probably almost stupidly tedious and difficult, but i'm not going to tell that to someone who wants to try |
| 08:00 |
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| 08:00 |
hmmmm |
everybody seems to follow a pattern where they start off with lots of energy and motivation and end up doing great things for minetest |
| 08:00 |
hmmmm |
then they disappear |
| 08:01 |
hmmmm |
then they come back and say "hey i'm going to get involved again!" which happens, for two weeks or so |
| 08:02 |
celeron55 |
well, MT is kind of overwhelming for any of us |
| 08:05 |
nrzkt |
shadowdevs :D |
| 08:06 |
celeron55 |
i think one issue is that people are unable to team up with each other to work on a larger feature |
| 08:06 |
celeron55 |
and then burn out when trying to get it done in any reasonable amount of time |
| 08:06 |
celeron55 |
but that's hard to solve when few people even have enough skills to do anything at all |
| 08:10 |
celeron55 |
but clearly it is not worth it on a personal level to contribute something big to minetest |
| 08:13 |
celeron55 |
or it might be, but it's so long-term that nobody realizes it |
| 08:13 |
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| 08:14 |
hmmmm |
i think we might eventually overtake minecraft in popularity |
| 08:14 |
hmmmm |
it's an entire genre, i feel, that's about as permanent as FPSes or RTSes |
| 08:14 |
hmmmm |
remember when every FPS was a doom clone in 1993? |
| 08:15 |
celeron55 |
i wasn't playing games when i was four years old but i do know that |
| 08:15 |
celeron55 |
i'm wondering if people generally hated doom and its clones back then |
| 08:15 |
celeron55 |
like they are starting to hate minecraft and its clones now |
| 08:16 |
celeron55 |
or, well, years ago actually |
| 08:17 |
hmmmm |
yeah |
| 08:17 |
hmmmm |
but at the same time doom is considered to be like... the reference for FPSes |
| 08:17 |
hmmmm |
and it being open sourced helps a lot |
| 08:18 |
celeron55 |
well, people get fed up of something and they move on to something else, and then after 10 years they realize the thing they got fed up actually was good, they just had too much of it |
| 08:18 |
celeron55 |
this happens everywhere |
| 08:19 |
celeron55 |
altough, minecraft is still ridiculously popular; just not very much among older people |
| 08:19 |
hmmmm |
when this second wave of popularity comes around, minetest should be well refined at that point |
| 08:20 |
hmmmm |
although at its current trajectory it's more of an OS than emacs is |
| 08:20 |
celeron55 |
the "being fed up" is affecting all of us too, of course |
| 08:20 |
rubenwardy |
<hmmmm> i think we might eventually overtake minecraft in popularity |
| 08:20 |
rubenwardy |
It'll take a lot of work |
| 08:21 |
hmmmm |
might have to fight this urge to feature creep |
| 08:21 |
rubenwardy |
Have you seen this thread? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13061 |
| 08:22 |
hmmmm |
right |
| 08:22 |
hmmmm |
less features, more refinement in general |
| 08:22 |
hmmmm |
less emphasis on new features |
| 08:23 |
rubenwardy |
we do need both |
| 08:24 |
celeron55 |
one of the reasons i'm reluctant in touching minetest is that i'm still not sure what it's supposed to be; it diverged from my original plans so much in 2011 that i haven't been able to define it properly ever since |
| 08:24 |
hmmmm |
it's an OS |
| 08:24 |
hmmmm |
all we need to do is add preemption to lua threads and there you go |
| 08:24 |
hmmmm |
preemption to lua to make threads* |
| 08:25 |
rubenwardy |
It's a fully fledged OS, lacking only a good voxel game |
| 08:25 |
rubenwardy |
content wise |
| 08:26 |
celeron55 |
it's a voxel game and game engine that just lacks a good voxel game and a good game engine |
| 08:26 |
celeron55 |
just a regular open source project, that is |
| 08:26 |
hmmmm |
i think we're doing okay for a small handful of volunteers |
| 08:27 |
hmmmm |
mm okay i can hardly form coherent sentences anymore, i need to go to sleep |
| 08:28 |
celeron55 |
well, MT has to do better in order to stay relevant |
| 08:28 |
celeron55 |
it's a fact |
| 08:30 |
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| 09:01 |
johnwayne1986 |
hey, what about making a kickstarter (or sth) project for making minetest 5.0 with defined goals? ;) |
| 09:15 |
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| 09:18 |
Calinou |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/525 |
| 09:18 |
Calinou |
close maybe? I'm sure there's already an engine issue for it |
| 10:06 |
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| 12:44 |
RealBadAngel |
msg NickServ identify angelxx1 |
| 12:44 |
RealBadAngel |
lmao |
| 12:45 |
nrzkt |
epic fail :D |
| 12:45 |
RealBadAngel |
indeed ;) |
| 12:48 |
Donillo |
huh, you better be using longer passwords |
| 12:48 |
Donillo |
:P |
| 12:51 |
sgtbigman |
or ssl certs :p |
| 13:14 |
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| 13:25 |
VanessaE |
RealBadAngel: your password sucks. :) |
| 13:30 |
exio4 |
RealBadAngel: I hope you already changed your password |
| 13:34 |
RealBadAngel |
i will change it, i have to ;) |
| 13:34 |
RealBadAngel |
anyway i figured out growing of mese crystals |
| 13:35 |
RealBadAngel |
first of all farms would work only at certain depth and below, like -1000 |
| 13:35 |
VanessaE |
I would say underwater, with a mese block as the base and "seed". |
| 13:35 |
VanessaE |
and a LOT of heat |
| 13:35 |
VanessaE |
such as a lava source under the mese |
| 13:35 |
RealBadAngel |
"soil" will be obsidian, turneable to it only by using diamond hoe |
| 13:36 |
VanessaE |
but that probably would conflict with the lavacooling code. |
| 13:36 |
RealBadAngel |
and lotsa lava around instead of water |
| 13:36 |
RealBadAngel |
no |
| 13:36 |
RealBadAngel |
abm will be put on obsidian soil |
| 13:37 |
VanessaE |
that makes no sense to me, really |
| 13:37 |
RealBadAngel |
it will work, believe me :) |
| 13:37 |
VanessaE |
why would obsidian generate anything other than silica or somthing? |
| 13:37 |
VanessaE |
use a mese block for the seed. |
| 13:37 |
VanessaE |
soil* |
| 13:37 |
RealBadAngel |
thats about the seed |
| 13:38 |
RealBadAngel |
not the ground where it could be planted |
| 13:38 |
RealBadAngel |
also a special tool will be needed to cut off a piece of crystal grown |
| 13:39 |
RealBadAngel |
pick will dig all the formation at the time |
| 13:39 |
RealBadAngel |
same as for formation found grown naturally |
| 13:40 |
RealBadAngel |
the tool will reduce growing stage by 1, givin back one crystal |
| 13:40 |
RealBadAngel |
but wont remove minimal growing stage |
| 13:42 |
RealBadAngel |
and the seed can be also made expensive |
| 13:42 |
RealBadAngel |
like 8 mese crystals with obsidian shard in the middle |
| 13:44 |
RealBadAngel |
thats gonna bring whole new level to the game. and kinda unique |
| 13:46 |
Donillo |
what is mese? what is it's legend on generation? :) |
| 13:47 |
Donillo |
pardon my engrish |
| 13:48 |
VanessaE |
it's a crystalline artifact of alien origin, somewhat similar to a (very) hard plastic. |
| 13:48 |
Calinou |
it's on old Minetest wiki... |
| 13:48 |
VanessaE |
electrically conductive, usable as a power source when combined with other materials. |
| 13:48 |
Calinou |
it's something related to a Finnish programming community |
| 13:48 |
Calinou |
the 8 in 8) and 8D smileys are "Mese glasses" |
| 13:49 |
VanessaE |
oh the name? that's a Finnish shorthand for "MSN Messenger" or something |
| 13:50 |
Calinou |
yeah |
| 13:51 |
RealBadAngel |
https://imgrush.com/vxfrNtQojkvy.png |
| 13:52 |
RealBadAngel |
they do glow, more grown, the brighter |
| 13:52 |
Donillo |
aren't first two way too different? |
| 13:52 |
Calinou |
we still need glowmap textures :( |
| 13:52 |
RealBadAngel |
and comparing to mese_in_stone that looks really nice |
| 13:53 |
RealBadAngel |
theyre a bit transparent |
| 13:53 |
VanessaE |
Calinou: glowmap? |
| 13:53 |
RealBadAngel |
the third map.... |
| 13:54 |
RealBadAngel |
you see, modern mapping techniques requitre not just one map |
| 13:54 |
RealBadAngel |
but about 5 of them |
| 13:54 |
Donillo |
I think crystalls alone can coexist with mese in stone |
| 13:54 |
RealBadAngel |
but... that would kill the engine for sure ;) |
| 13:54 |
Calinou |
VanessaE, a texture overlaid over the main one, that constantly glows, even in the dark |
| 13:55 |
Calinou |
could be coloured optionally |
| 13:55 |
VanessaE |
oh |
| 13:55 |
Calinou |
RealBadAngel, https://github.com/kmkolasinski/AwesomeBump |
| 13:55 |
RealBadAngel |
Calinou, thats the tool im using |
| 13:55 |
Calinou |
Diffuse, Normal, Specular, Height, Occlusion, Roughness, Metallic |
| 13:55 |
Calinou |
:) |
| 13:56 |
RealBadAngel |
diffuse is regular texture |
| 13:56 |
RealBadAngel |
occlusion i have no slightest idea what for |
| 13:56 |
RealBadAngel |
rest of them are actually useable |
| 13:57 |
RealBadAngel |
and normal + height are combined into one |
| 13:57 |
RealBadAngel |
that makes 5 |
| 13:59 |
Calinou |
occlusion is rarely used, yeah |
| 13:59 |
Calinou |
you also need a specular map most of the time |
| 13:59 |
Calinou |
even though Minetest doesn't use any |
| 13:59 |
Calinou |
it's used more often than height, in general |
| 14:01 |
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| 14:04 |
RealBadAngel |
Donillo, i dont think that they can coexist |
| 14:05 |
RealBadAngel |
ofc they could be made so, but why? |
| 14:05 |
RealBadAngel |
mese is special |
| 14:06 |
VanessaE |
it used to be. |
| 14:07 |
VanessaE |
then diamonds were added, which sorta diminished that |
| 14:25 |
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| 14:26 |
RealBadAngel |
diamonds, mese, metals.... |
| 14:26 |
RealBadAngel |
theyre not different atm |
| 14:27 |
RealBadAngel |
just a different colour |
| 14:27 |
rubenwardy |
RealBadAngel, are those diamonds smooth growing? |
| 14:27 |
RealBadAngel |
not yer |
| 14:27 |
rubenwardy |
are there different nodes? crystal_1, 2, etc |
| 14:27 |
RealBadAngel |
yes |
| 14:27 |
rubenwardy |
s/diamonds/crstals |
| 14:28 |
RealBadAngel |
4 stages are different nodes and drops |
| 14:29 |
RealBadAngel |
stage one gives one crystal |
| 14:29 |
RealBadAngel |
most rare stage 4 gives 4 |
| 14:29 |
Brains |
y |
| 14:29 |
Brains |
(wrong window, sorry) |
| 14:30 |
RealBadAngel |
crystalline bell will be able to take out one crystal without destroyin the seed |
| 14:35 |
RealBadAngel |
you could be able to use it on natural ones, but they wont regrow |
| 14:41 |
RealBadAngel |
i do have code almost done, propably will merge it tomorrow |
| 14:41 |
RealBadAngel |
its up to mt to get it or not, imho its worth it |
| 14:47 |
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| 16:06 |
est31 |
okay I'll push a commit that removes the modstore button |
| 16:07 |
nrzkt |
ps ax |
| 16:07 |
nrzkt |
oops :p |
| 16:07 |
rubenwardy |
missing - as well |
| 16:08 |
rubenwardy |
nevermind |
| 16:08 |
* est31 |
does ps -Al |
| 16:09 |
Calinou |
I'm hardcore, ps a |
| 16:15 |
rubenwardy |
ps -aux for me |
| 16:15 |
nrzkt |
i don't need users then no u :D |
| 16:16 |
rubenwardy |
I don't actually know what each does. I don't need users either |
| 16:17 |
est31 |
Wayward_One, have you tested the commit? |
| 16:21 |
nrzkt |
Jenkins Android builds will be offline for a moment because i'm migrating my server to a new machine and the Android VM needs some things to be migrated |
| 16:22 |
est31 |
ok |
| 16:28 |
Wayward_One |
est31: yes, it worked fine |
| 16:37 |
est31 |
ok then gonna push the commit then |
| 16:59 |
est31 |
okay, mmdb disable commit is pushed |
| 17:05 |
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| 17:23 |
est31 |
ok, as we reach the release, we need somebody to write a changelog. |
| 17:23 |
est31 |
any volunteers? |
| 17:28 |
nrzkt |
Calinou go ! |
| 17:30 |
|
wischi joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:31 |
* est31 |
looks at the issues with the blocker label... all fixed. |
| 17:31 |
est31 |
seems we can make the release |
| 17:31 |
sfan5 |
does this mean that i can make builds soon? |
| 17:32 |
est31 |
we need to wait for paramat to make the game release |
| 17:32 |
est31 |
last week he expressed his wish that he wants to do it |
| 17:33 |
est31 |
but from the engine side everything is ready |
| 17:34 |
nrzkt |
then tag the branch now |
| 17:34 |
nrzkt |
and do the version modifications |
| 17:35 |
est31 |
lets do it. |
| 17:36 |
nrzkt |
est31 |
| 17:36 |
nrzkt |
before tagging |
| 17:37 |
nrzkt |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/5622fb2cee6d86f0220ea5773ec78f5f2f6714c3#commitcomment-12790406 |
| 17:37 |
nrzkt |
can you do this ? |
| 17:37 |
nrzkt |
the translation choosen is very bad |
| 17:39 |
est31 |
hrmmm... |
| 17:39 |
est31 |
might conflict weblate, dunno |
| 17:40 |
est31 |
lets try it |
| 17:41 |
est31 |
can you push a fixing commit? |
| 17:41 |
|
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| 17:41 |
nrzkt |
est31 sorry but i'm at work, cannot :s |
| 17:42 |
kilbith |
as i said, "JcJ" is a very unclear acronym |
| 17:42 |
kilbith |
don't be so nitpicky |
| 17:43 |
nrzkt |
JcJ is know by all RPG gamers |
| 17:43 |
nrzkt |
known* |
| 17:43 |
kilbith |
our players are kids, bear in mind |
| 17:45 |
est31 |
lets push two other very trivial prs |
| 17:46 |
est31 |
3077 and 3063 |
| 17:47 |
|
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| 17:49 |
kilbith |
rubenwardy: can you write the changelog ? |
| 17:49 |
Donillo |
what is JcJ? |
| 17:50 |
kilbith |
PvP |
| 17:50 |
kilbith |
the most efficient option for the changelog would be a selective grep of #minetest bot messages |
| 17:51 |
est31 |
you can generate such logs with git too |
| 17:51 |
est31 |
the point of a changelog is to filter the list for important changes |
| 17:52 |
est31 |
not all commits should appear in changelog |
| 17:52 |
kilbith |
ideally it should fill a .txt whenever the bot announces a commit |
| 17:52 |
est31 |
also, the bot has been offline during some times, making commits not getting recorded |
| 17:53 |
est31 |
and you'll have to filter jeja's mesecon commits out, and other repos that also log to the bot |
| 17:54 |
kilbith |
right, and we have no way to sort by level of importance |
| 17:54 |
est31 |
nice, the release commit will be the 4900th one :) |
| 17:57 |
|
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| 17:58 |
rubenwardy |
I was considering it, kilbith |
| 17:58 |
rubenwardy |
I guess I could |
| 17:59 |
est31 |
ok, lets push the button, there were no new blocker issues the last days, everbody had enough time to declare what they deem blocker. |
| 17:59 |
est31 |
I'll have to do a clean clone build of minetest, to assure its working as intended |
| 17:59 |
rubenwardy |
when was the last release? Feb? |
| 17:59 |
est31 |
rubenwardy, yes |
| 18:00 |
rubenwardy |
okay, I'll start the changelog |
| 18:00 |
est31 |
builders: don't build yet, wait for mtgame to be released |
| 18:03 |
kilbith |
est31: meanwhile can you blast that "0.5.0-dev" in releases ? |
| 18:03 |
est31 |
? |
| 18:03 |
kilbith |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/releases |
| 18:04 |
est31 |
dunno why nrzkt did that release |
| 18:04 |
nrzkt |
i didn't do it |
| 18:04 |
nrzkt |
github make a release for each tag |
| 18:04 |
nrzkt |
this is automated |
| 18:05 |
est31 |
perhaps no tag then? |
| 18:05 |
kilbith |
the 0.5 tag existed before nrzkt and there was no such release |
| 18:06 |
kilbith |
unless i'm mistaking with flag |
| 18:06 |
|
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| 18:10 |
hmmmm |
oh wait |
| 18:10 |
hmmmm |
don't forget to update the contributors |
| 18:10 |
rubenwardy |
Are nerzhul's commit messages always too long? |
| 18:11 |
hmmmm |
a commit message can never be too long, just too many columns in the same line |
| 18:11 |
est31 |
hmmmm, good catch |
| 18:11 |
est31 |
hmmmm, can you make a commit? |
| 18:12 |
est31 |
otherwise I do it |
| 18:12 |
hmmmm |
yeah i'll do it |
| 18:13 |
est31 |
RealBadAngel, last chance to be not listed in "previous core developers" |
| 18:13 |
hmmmm |
also last call for changes |
| 18:22 |
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| 18:22 |
hmmmm |
oh wait a minute |
| 18:22 |
hmmmm |
I realize this is probably a moot point because you can just look at the commit logs, but... |
| 18:23 |
hmmmm |
do you think it might be a good idea to remove contributors' emails from the credits? |
| 18:23 |
rubenwardy |
bored shitless, someone else can continue: https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/e9e832cbf6216635b610 |
| 18:24 |
hmmmm |
I mean, I don't think people who don't look at commit logs are going to email them anything intelligent |
| 18:24 |
rubenwardy |
yeah, I say remove it |
| 18:24 |
hmmmm |
hehe, my name is so absent from the changelog |
| 18:24 |
est31 |
some people only get the binary, and not the source |
| 18:25 |
est31 |
but I guess this is the internet age, everybody can find this out |
| 18:25 |
hmmmm |
also i thought there were way many more changes than that |
| 18:25 |
est31 |
so I'm ok with it |
| 18:25 |
est31 |
its incomplete |
| 18:25 |
hmmmm |
est31: yeah, like I said.. people who get only the binary probably don't have business emailing anybody |
| 18:26 |
hmmmm |
I mean what are they going to say |
| 18:26 |
hmmmm |
"Uhhm I really like minetest but you need to add kangaroos to the game" |
| 18:28 |
hmmmm |
when I originally re-did the credits tab, I added email addresses because that's what other credits tabs in FOSS do |
| 18:29 |
rubenwardy |
hmmmm, most of your changes up to that point are reverts |
| 18:29 |
hmmmm |
hah! |
| 18:30 |
hmmmm |
serves them right for making bad commits |
| 18:30 |
rubenwardy |
I got up to 16th of March |
| 18:30 |
hmmmm |
makes sense then, I took a minetest break around that time |
| 18:30 |
est31 |
ha lol |
| 18:31 |
est31 |
every time hmmmm does a break, things go awry |
| 18:31 |
rubenwardy |
true |
| 18:31 |
hmmmm |
I remember the last time I returned everything was broken again |
| 18:31 |
hmmmm |
FPS regressions, doesn't even compile, etc. |
| 18:31 |
hmmmm |
maybe it's just a coincidence that it seems that way because I'm not aware of the current problems |
| 18:34 |
rubenwardy |
surely there's an app which allows you to go through a commit list and click "feature", "bug fix", "discard" etc |
| 18:34 |
rubenwardy |
"rephrase" |
| 18:35 |
rubenwardy |
s/app/program/ |
| 18:36 |
hmmmm |
is sokomine a core dev? |
| 18:36 |
est31 |
no |
| 18:36 |
hmmmm |
hm okay |
| 18:36 |
hmmmm |
I lost track |
| 18:36 |
|
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| 18:36 |
est31 |
https://github.com/orgs/minetest/people |
| 18:37 |
hmmmm |
yeah the thing about that is you need to hover over everybody's names |
| 18:37 |
hmmmm |
there's no plain list |
| 18:37 |
hmmmm |
so i hate doing it |
| 18:37 |
rubenwardy |
maybe I'll write an app for it |
| 18:37 |
hmmmm |
lol |
| 18:39 |
|
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| 18:39 |
luizrpgluiz |
hey devs,I liked the news from minetest release candidate, will put more to this new version? |
| 18:53 |
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| 18:58 |
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est31 joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:18 |
est31 |
hmmmm, before we have asked every dev whether they wanted their email to be mentioned |
| 19:20 |
est31 |
so those people might complain now |
| 19:20 |
est31 |
e.g. blockmen or paramat |
| 19:22 |
RealBadAngel |
my actual email is maciej.kasatkin o2.pl |
| 19:23 |
RealBadAngel |
just for the record ;) |
| 19:23 |
hmmmm |
whoops |
| 19:23 |
hmmmm |
should we get rid of it |
| 19:23 |
hmmmm |
RealBadAngel: that came from the commit log |
| 19:24 |
hmmmm |
est, I'll remove blockmen and paramat |
| 19:24 |
est31 |
and nrzkt |
| 19:24 |
est31 |
& sapier |
| 19:25 |
nrzkt |
you can let my mail |
| 19:25 |
est31 |
TeTpaAka and gregorycu too |
| 19:25 |
hmmmm |
oh |
| 19:25 |
hmmmm |
gregorycu isn't around though |
| 19:25 |
hmmmm |
we can't ask him so we'll have to assume that's a no |
| 19:26 |
est31 |
well, he didn't actually object I think |
| 19:26 |
nrzkt |
offtopic: zfs send|zfs recv is gorgeous for cloning a dataset with a bhyve VM on FreeBSD :D |
| 19:27 |
est31 |
hrmm RealBadAngel wants to get #3073 fixed before release |
| 19:27 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3073 -- tileable_{horizontal,vertical} flags cause fps decrease |
| 19:27 |
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| 19:28 |
hmmmm |
alright |
| 19:28 |
hmmmm |
if it fixes the problem though |
| 19:28 |
rubenwardy |
changelog pretty much done: https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/0522aebc5265233ea45d |
| 19:28 |
hmmmm |
there's so much mixed up information and misinformation |
| 19:28 |
rubenwardy |
Just need to go through and check for mistakes |
| 19:28 |
est31 |
we can wait a day or two for him to fix the bug, no? |
| 19:28 |
hmmmm |
yeah what the hell. |
| 19:29 |
hmmmm |
it is a pretty nasty bug. i wouldn't want to release with that. |
| 19:29 |
hmmmm |
RealBadAngel, do you want your email updated? |
| 19:29 |
hmmmm |
er not updated, changed to the real one |
| 19:32 |
rubenwardy |
I used this to sort the commits: http://pastebin.com/LRcUgWMX |
| 19:38 |
rubenwardy |
okay, edited this a bit: https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/0522aebc5265233ea45d |
| 19:38 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmmm, yes i would like it to be changed |
| 19:39 |
rubenwardy |
How can I find out who jeanpatrick.guerrerogmail.com is? |
| 19:39 |
kilbith |
its me |
| 19:40 |
rubenwardy |
thought so |
| 19:40 |
Robert_Zenz |
RealBadAngel, how can I be of help? |
| 19:40 |
RealBadAngel |
est31, hmmmm about 3073 im talkin to author of the issue right now |
| 19:40 |
RealBadAngel |
Robert_Zenz, lets talk in private |
| 19:41 |
rubenwardy |
was utf support actually added, or was just some commits done towards it? |
| 19:46 |
hmmmm |
it was added, we use libiconv |
| 19:46 |
rubenwardy |
for the record, these commits were discarded from the changelog: https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/07f6c105b13b35a3f8be |
| 19:46 |
est31 |
rubenwardy, chat isn't done with utf-8 yet, but we added conversion routines |
| 19:46 |
hmmmm |
the UTF-8 change commit deprecates wide characters in the chat messages |
| 19:46 |
est31 |
also they are used |
| 19:47 |
est31 |
not yet hmmmm, unfortunately. |
| 19:47 |
est31 |
but some bugs got fixed with encoding issues |
| 19:47 |
est31 |
also, the "narrow" encoding which has been system dependent, became utf-8 |
| 19:48 |
est31 |
proller wants his email to be removed as well |
| 19:49 |
rubenwardy |
okay, the change log is done on my end, you may want to go through and remove / modify messages to what you think are relevant |
| 19:50 |
Donillo |
about encodings, no more that crap when I can't see russian text from Windows players anymore? |
| 19:50 |
est31 |
perhaps unify the "Loic Blot"/"Ner'zhul" |
| 19:51 |
rubenwardy |
yeah |
| 19:51 |
Donillo |
huh, very nice :) |
| 19:52 |
rubenwardy |
done |
| 19:52 |
est31 |
wow quite a list |
| 19:53 |
rubenwardy |
these didn't make the cut, not sure if you agree with me https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/07f6c105b13b35a3f8be |
| 19:53 |
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| 19:54 |
rubenwardy |
yeah, it's pretty big |
| 19:54 |
rubenwardy |
I wrote a script to help me through it |
| 19:55 |
rubenwardy |
I'm tired, time to go to sleep o/ |
| 19:55 |
est31 |
Perhaps translators should be attributed somehow too |
| 19:55 |
est31 |
only with a list of their names |
| 19:56 |
rubenwardy |
yeah |
| 19:56 |
rubenwardy |
and minetest_game needs to be done |
| 19:56 |
rubenwardy |
it's a good release when "bug fixes" is longer than "features" |
| 19:56 |
hmmmm |
alright |
| 19:56 |
hmmmm |
https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/5009d31a333a8e1fff8c97bed69873164c72c600 |
| 19:57 |
hmmmm |
look good? anybody else want their details in the credits tab modified? |
| 19:57 |
est31 |
lgtm |
| 19:59 |
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| 20:01 |
est31 |
okay, lets wait one or two days on the engine side for RealBadAngel to fix the fps bug with the tileable flags. |
| 20:09 |
nore |
hmmmm: I'd like an update for me on the website if possible (I already updated the credits however) |
| 20:10 |
hmmmm |
i can't change the website, sorry |
| 20:10 |
nore |
nvm, it's not that urgent |
| 20:11 |
nore |
since there is the website competition anyway, I guess it will be easy to change it after the new website is used |
| 20:19 |
|
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| 20:19 |
rubenwardy |
nore, I have access to the website |
| 20:21 |
rubenwardy |
is that okay: http://www.minetest.net/contributors |
| 20:21 |
nore |
yep, thanks! |
| 20:35 |
|
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| 20:37 |
paramat |
hi nore sfan5 last thing for release game#640 shall we merge something like this? |
| 20:37 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/640 -- Fire: Slow down spread and reduce lua load by paramat |
| 20:40 |
hmmmm |
i want to be able to use fire but it consumes the entire serverthread |
| 20:40 |
paramat |
don't forget #3079 |
| 20:40 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3079 -- Remove use of engine sent texture tiling flags - theyre no longer needed by RealBadAngel |
| 20:40 |
hmmmm |
would really like to time limit abm processing |
| 20:42 |
sfan5 |
paramat: the pr should include a comment why that ABM was disabled |
| 20:42 |
paramat |
yes ok |
| 20:43 |
sfan5 |
seems good otherwise |
| 20:45 |
paramat |
the way sounds are done may be making it heavy too, something to work on after release |
| 20:46 |
nrzkt |
~tell est31: Jenkins slave for android is back. |
| 20:46 |
ShadowBot |
nrzkt: O.K. |
| 20:56 |
RealBadAngel |
paramat, please hold on with 3079 |
| 20:57 |
paramat |
sure, i was leaving the merge to others anyway |
| 20:57 |
RealBadAngel |
theres something wrong with clamping, im workin now with author of the issue https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3073 |
| 20:57 |
RealBadAngel |
to find out whats wrong |
| 21:11 |
paramat |
credits tab is fine for me thanks |
| 21:17 |
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| 21:21 |
RealBadAngel |
paramat, i have found the reason, going to update 3079 soon |
| 21:21 |
paramat |
ok |
| 21:22 |
RealBadAngel |
i will test it for a while if everything is ok now |
| 21:23 |
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| 21:31 |
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| 21:31 |
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| 21:47 |
RealBadAngel |
ok #3079 is updated |
| 21:48 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3079 -- Remove use of engine sent texture tiling flags - theyre no longer needed by RealBadAngel |
| 21:48 |
RealBadAngel |
issue 3073 can be closed |
| 21:50 |
paramat |
cool |
| 22:07 |
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| 22:37 |
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paramat left #minetest-dev |
| 22:52 |
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damiel joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:09 |
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Zeitgeist_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:23 |
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est31 joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:23 |
est31 |
RealBadAngel, what did you change with #3079? |
| 23:23 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3079 -- Remove use of engine sent texture tiling flags - theyre no longer needed by RealBadAngel |
| 23:24 |
RealBadAngel |
i removed checking tileable flags for constructing fast faces |
| 23:24 |
RealBadAngel |
that was a reason for the slowdown |
| 23:25 |
est31 |
hrmmm, seems sb will have to test it... |
| 23:25 |
RealBadAngel |
i did |
| 23:25 |
RealBadAngel |
it is working ok now, theres no drop |
| 23:25 |
|
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| 23:26 |
RealBadAngel |
but first to test will be propably Robert_Zenz, the one who reported it |
| 23:26 |
est31 |
yea |
| 23:27 |
RealBadAngel |
anyway this PR has to go in .13 |
| 23:27 |
RealBadAngel |
this is more bugfix than cleanup |
| 23:27 |
est31 |
if it does the speedup, I'll merge it. |
| 23:28 |
RealBadAngel |
it does by two things |
| 23:28 |
RealBadAngel |
fixing a bug and removing obsolete code |
| 23:29 |
RealBadAngel |
anyway i do have crystalline bell ready, testing it now :) |
| 23:32 |
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| 23:33 |
est31 |
man the new grass is ugly without bumpmapping |
| 23:34 |
est31 |
but for the sake of peace, it should be kept this way |
| 23:34 |
RealBadAngel |
lol |
| 23:35 |
RealBadAngel |
i do really love how grass looks like with bumps and displacement, especially the sides |
| 23:36 |
RealBadAngel |
but i do agree its a bit to bright now |
| 23:36 |
RealBadAngel |
before it was more juicy green |
| 23:37 |
RealBadAngel |
i will propably revert that commit |
| 23:37 |
est31 |
its not your fault |
| 23:37 |
est31 |
its paramats |
| 23:38 |
est31 |
he promised a compromise, what he took was the barf texture |
| 23:38 |
est31 |
but lets not talk about it |
| 23:39 |
RealBadAngel |
compromises are worth shit |
| 23:40 |
RealBadAngel |
you will never fit all the tastes around |
| 23:40 |
est31 |
^ |
| 23:40 |
|
est31 joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:40 |
est31 |
oops wrong button :) |
| 23:41 |
est31 |
whats again the default for the tileable flags? |
| 23:41 |
RealBadAngel |
better to have some1 with good taste to decide whats good lookin |
| 23:41 |
RealBadAngel |
seamless is default |
| 23:41 |
RealBadAngel |
only some nodes need that flag, like dirt with grass or snow |
| 23:42 |
RealBadAngel |
sorry, tiles, not the nodes |
| 23:42 |
est31 |
tileable_horizontal = true or false which is default? |
| 23:42 |
RealBadAngel |
both true == texture seamless |
| 23:42 |
RealBadAngel |
both true are default |
| 23:42 |
est31 |
ok |
| 23:43 |
RealBadAngel |
you can define true in tiledef but that makes no sence while theyre default |
| 23:43 |
RealBadAngel |
so you should do that only with false case |
| 23:43 |
est31 |
interesting, I cant reproduce what robert zenz can reproduce |
| 23:43 |
est31 |
you know the displacement bug |
| 23:44 |
est31 |
what do i have to turn on? |
| 23:44 |
RealBadAngel |
parallax mapping |
| 23:44 |
est31 |
in the gui whats the option there? |
| 23:44 |
RealBadAngel |
parallax mapping ;) |
| 23:44 |
est31 |
there is only bumpmapping and parallax occlusion |
| 23:44 |
RealBadAngel |
ouch |
| 23:44 |
RealBadAngel |
occlussion |
| 23:45 |
RealBadAngel |
but thats the same |
| 23:45 |
est31 |
ah now I see the bug |
| 23:45 |
est31 |
ok |
| 23:45 |
RealBadAngel |
its very nature is to move the texture |
| 23:45 |
est31 |
around 30 fps |
| 23:45 |
est31 |
err |
| 23:45 |
RealBadAngel |
if its not seamless, then houston we have a problem ;) |
| 23:45 |
est31 |
around 20 |
| 23:45 |
RealBadAngel |
apply now the patch |
| 23:46 |
RealBadAngel |
with lotsa grass around your fps should double basically |
| 23:46 |
est31 |
I see |
| 23:46 |
est31 |
when the tileable flags are true, I get ~14 fps |
| 23:46 |
est31 |
while I get ~30 fps with the tileable flags being false |
| 23:46 |
RealBadAngel |
thats not the problem with flags themselves |
| 23:46 |
est31 |
err |
| 23:47 |
est31 |
other way round |
| 23:47 |
est31 |
RealBadAngel, I know |
| 23:47 |
est31 |
I only want to see the difference |
| 23:47 |
RealBadAngel |
problem was i disabled fastfaces for grass with them |
| 23:47 |
est31 |
because thats the bug |
| 23:47 |
RealBadAngel |
and that was the mistake |
| 23:47 |
est31 |
now lets try your patch |
| 23:49 |
RealBadAngel |
btw, parallax occlusion is now rather incorrect |
| 23:50 |
RealBadAngel |
we are using relief mapping |
| 23:50 |
est31 |
okay your patch works |
| 23:50 |
RealBadAngel |
we do have still code for parallax occlusion mapping but i think its obsolete. too low quality of the method |
| 23:51 |
est31 |
I agree with you now, we can merge it IMO. |
| 23:52 |
est31 |
perhaps also remove the part where the texture flags are sent to the shader? |
| 23:52 |
RealBadAngel |
nononono |
| 23:52 |
RealBadAngel |
no way :) |
| 23:52 |
RealBadAngel |
i need that code |
| 23:52 |
est31 |
for what |
| 23:52 |
RealBadAngel |
to send to shaders anything |
| 23:52 |
est31 |
well thats ok |
| 23:52 |
RealBadAngel |
irrlicht lacks of setting vertex attributes |
| 23:53 |
RealBadAngel |
ive spent months figuring out working way to do so |
| 23:53 |
est31 |
just remove the part where you send the g and b values for the tileability flags |
| 23:53 |
RealBadAngel |
this code is an absolute MUST HAVE |
| 23:54 |
est31 |
its a very neat trick, but we should send only what we read at the other side |
| 23:54 |
est31 |
I dont mean that you should remove all attribute sending code |
| 23:54 |
est31 |
only the part that sends the tileability h and v flags |
| 23:54 |
RealBadAngel |
so lets leave only R part |
| 23:54 |
est31 |
yes |
| 23:54 |
RealBadAngel |
i will save a copy of the code |
| 23:55 |
est31 |
its in git, nothing is lost :) |
| 23:55 |
RealBadAngel |
i prefer my own ways |
| 23:55 |
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sloantothebone joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:56 |
est31 |
no problem with that |
| 23:56 |
RealBadAngel |
shall i update the pr then> |
| 23:56 |
RealBadAngel |
? |
| 23:56 |
est31 |
yes |
| 23:57 |
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wischi2 joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:57 |
RealBadAngel |
gimme a few minutes then |
