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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-07-22

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 TBC_x that makes sence
00:06 Routh This is weird. I've defined an alternate water block for a biome, and for some odd reason minetest is added a 1 block layer of water on top of the other liquid.
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00:11 * VanessaE peeks in
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00:12 VanessaE Routh: check your "dust" setting for the biome
00:12 Routh VanessaE: Not set
00:18 Routh Werid. I explicitly defined node_water_top with the same liquid and it worked.
00:19 Routh Dunno if that is a bug with biome API or my liquid.
00:19 paramat will look into it, might run your subgame to see
00:21 Routh I think my liquids definition in moreliquids may be lacking, I need to review other liquid defs to see whats possible and what I may be missing.
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00:21 Routh I know it doesn't drown you, seems I missed drowning = 1
00:26 Routh Oh, figured out what I did wrong. Doh. I left depth_water_top = 1 on the biome def when troublshooting, and it added water since node_water_top was left undefined.
00:27 paramat aha =)
00:31 VanessaE paramat: oh btw, moretrees now uses the default acacia nodes (and the pine ones too), in case you're curious.
00:32 paramat good, the previous acacia leaves were ridiculous, didn't even tile
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01:25 paramat now pushing trivial #2947
01:25 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2947 -- Conf.example: Update mgv7 noise parameters by paramat
01:30 paramat complete
02:12 Sokomine has something been changed regarding minetest.serialize? some behaviour seems odd. it wasn't throwing complaints at me for passing a function in a table to it, and the output looks diffrent. or is it just me?
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03:46 est31 hmmmm, have you seen #2941 ?
03:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2941 -- Serialization error
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03:50 hmmmm well, i have now
03:50 hmmmm est31:  that's good
03:51 hmmmm est31:  under normal circumstances that would've flooded the chat window with a bunch of bogus characters and possibly get further into the AOM processing chain
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04:31 VanessaE regression:  now all the wielded items in the wield3d mod are black
04:32 VanessaE i.e. what you see other players carrying
04:34 VanessaE RealBadAngel: ^^^^^^
05:42 RealBadAngel VanessaE, link to that mod?
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05:59 VanessaE https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=6407
06:00 VanessaE RealBadAngel: better to just sign onto VE-Basic and you can see it in use there.
06:00 VanessaE however now it's not doing it
06:01 VanessaE RealBadAngel: I see the trouble - it doesn't react to the ambient light, only to the sunlight level
06:02 VanessaE I'm standing next to a torch at night and it's still solid black
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06:10 RealBadAngel VanessaE, when you drop an item on the ground, next to that torch, is it properly lit?
06:11 VanessaE yes
06:11 RealBadAngel can you check shaders on/off ?
06:11 VanessaE this is without shaders.
06:12 RealBadAngel having them on changes anythin?
06:13 VanessaE no effect.
06:13 VanessaE dropped items look correct but not the wielded item, which is probably an attached entity
06:13 RealBadAngel i see, compiling now fresh sources and will get that mod,  will look for the reason
06:15 VanessaE reference screenshot:  http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanes​sa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/rando​m/Screenshot_2015-07-22_02-14-33.png
06:15 VanessaE that's a block of dirt-with-grass that I'm holding, same as is dropped on the ground in front of me.
06:18 VanessaE (that screenshot was taken with shaders enabled; normally I have them turned off, same effect either way)
06:19 RealBadAngel lol that mod is glitchy as hell
06:19 RealBadAngel items keep disappearing. when you walk it swaps the hands too
06:20 RealBadAngel and the item shows on the other hand
06:20 RealBadAngel with item rotated by 180degs
06:20 VanessaE the hand swap is an engine bug I'm sure of it
06:21 VanessaE but doesn't matter, this is about the lighting on the wielded object, not how the wield is implemented :)
06:24 RealBadAngel https://imgrush.com/upZF7zNLKcaj
06:24 RealBadAngel https://imgrush.com/yG-fEsFNxMPW
06:24 RealBadAngel i cant see anythin wrong with it
06:25 VanessaE now go into a dark cave during the daytime.
06:26 VanessaE the wield will be full bright
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06:28 RealBadAngel nope.avi
06:28 VanessaE well it's broken for me.
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06:31 RealBadAngel can i see a screenie how it looks for you?
06:33 VanessaE reference screenshot:  http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanes​sa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/rando​m/Screenshot_2015-07-22_02-14-33.png
06:34 VanessaE compare the dirt-with-grass block I dropped on the ground with the one in my hand
06:34 VanessaE (the dropped one is just above the hotbar in the screenshot)
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11:09 VanessaE https://github.com/VanessaE/hdx-16/issues/3
11:10 VanessaE one of the oddest messages I've gotten in recent times, but he's right.  Can this be remedied at some point?
11:13 rubenwardy some texture packs store alternatives in subdirectories
11:13 VanessaE right, but I think he's talking more like "default" in one dir, "coloredwood" in another, and so on
11:14 rubenwardy yeah
11:14 rubenwardy For compatibility, you'd need to add a meta data file which says look in sub directories
11:14 VanessaE yeah
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11:18 TBC_x I hate reference counted memory leaks
11:18 TBC_x but I may have come up with a way to hunt them
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11:28 kilbith first at all, find out a memory free-er for the distant mapblocks
11:29 kilbith this is insane that they're always kept in RAM
11:29 TBC_x you know... caching
11:30 kilbith caching ad nauseum, yeah
11:31 TBC_x how are mapblocks sent? on client request or are just sent by the server?
11:31 VanessaE I'd say unload based on distance from the nearest client, multiplied by time since loading.  if the result exceeds some arbitrary threshold, unload the block
11:32 VanessaE TBC_x: by the server based on which way the client is looking
11:32 TBC_x i mean client-side right now
11:32 TBC_x if that makes sense
11:33 VanessaE it does.
11:34 TBC_x I know, that mapblocks have their lifetime defined by timeout value
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11:48 TBC_x this is annoying, when I WANT it to leak memory it does not leak
11:54 nrzkt TBX_x timeout is not sufficient
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14:04 TBC_x http://sprunge.us/HAgC leak sanitizer report from inside of running minetest
14:07 VanessaE only 7.6MB of leaks?  throw dreambuilder at it and see what happens ;)
14:08 TBC_x well... we're keeping 4k mapblockmeshes around
14:09 TBC_x I got the output so I could see how many objects there are hanging out
14:09 VanessaE hm, you should sort the output by leak size
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14:09 TBC_x grep " leak " leaks | uniq |less
14:09 VanessaE that's cheating :P
14:11 Krock lol
14:11 TBC_x I needed a way to count objects
14:12 VanessaE 2015-07-22 15:09:04: ERROR[main]: generateImage(): Could not load image "door_steel.png" while building texture
14:12 VanessaE so I'm not the only one who gets that error huh?
14:12 TBC_x I thought you're aware of that
14:13 nrzkt i didn't know we sell tshirts.... http://www.cafepress.co.uk/mf/83297301/​mt-hdx-logo_tshirt?productId=998795960
14:13 VanessaE nope.  Id I've seen any such report, I've forgotten about it :)
14:14 * kilbith would like a t-shirt autographed by RBA :3
14:14 nrzkt is this somebody who want to earn money on minetest community ?
14:14 VanessaE nrzkt: that's rubenwardy's cafepress store.
14:14 VanessaE been there for a couple years now I think
14:14 rubenwardy yeah
14:15 rubenwardy there's $6 there, I can't withdraw until there's $25
14:15 Calinou is the quality of the mug good?
14:15 nrzkt okay
14:31 RealBadAngel VanessaE, i cant reproduce that black wield3d issue even when using old server and new client
14:32 est31 I've seen it on VanessaE's server too
14:33 VanessaE so clearly it ain't unique to my client :P
14:33 VanessaE and the mod is just a normal, unmodified install
14:33 RealBadAngel is your server still an older ver or you have it updated?
14:33 VanessaE nope
14:33 VanessaE it's up-to-date as of 6am this morn.
14:34 VanessaE (4 1/2 hours ago)
14:34 RealBadAngel ok, going to waste some of my limits and join it ;)
14:34 VanessaE heh
14:35 RealBadAngel which one?
14:35 VanessaE Basic
14:35 VanessaE (30005)
14:38 VanessaE ssssshhh I'm hiding from the legion of n00bs over there. :P
14:46 TBC_x I think it is driver-dependent issue
14:46 VanessaE I'd be inclined to blame irrlicht first
14:47 VanessaE seeing as how all other lighting seems to work like it should
14:48 RealBadAngel VanessaE, ok, im in
14:48 RealBadAngel where are you?
14:48 VanessaE I'm not online at the moment.  hiding from the legions of n00bs
14:49 VanessaE you caj ust hit f7 and check in that mode, it's the same
14:49 VanessaE can*
14:56 RealBadAngel i think we shall look for the bug in code that set player->light_color
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14:56 VanessaE so you can reproduce it?
14:56 RealBadAngel by joining your server yes
14:57 VanessaE ok
14:57 RealBadAngel locally i cant
14:57 VanessaE that's what made me think it's network-related.
14:57 VanessaE that's surely the only difference between local client+server instances and going online.
14:57 RealBadAngel you also wasnt able to reproduce it on local right?
14:57 VanessaE yeah, locally it worked for me, too
15:00 RealBadAngel anyway, i think best way to fix it is making wield3d mod obsolete anyway
15:00 VanessaE agreed
15:00 VanessaE but until then..
15:00 RealBadAngel if we have it done properly, client side, we simply wont have such problems
15:00 gravgun Hum I can't create an account on the mt-dev wiki due to some "Incorrect or missing confirmation code.", is anyone else experiencing this issue?
15:00 VanessaE gravgun: everyone has that problem.
15:00 VanessaE Calinou:  ^^^^
15:00 gravgun Alright...
15:01 RealBadAngel VanessaE, so, im going now to code wielded engine and client side
15:01 RealBadAngel not so hard i think
15:01 VanessaE no
15:01 RealBadAngel i do have all what i need
15:01 VanessaE whatever it is that's causing the problem needs fixed first.
15:02 VanessaE because you can't fix old clients
15:02 VanessaE and I'll be using this mod until at least the point where old clients can safely be ignored.
15:03 RealBadAngel many of our bugs are caused by thinkin this way (offtopic)
15:03 est31 actually I agree with rba on this point
15:03 VanessaE yeah
15:03 RealBadAngel "stfu and get client up to date"
15:03 est31 yea
15:03 VanessaE old clients can't be updated easily.
15:03 VanessaE think tablet/phone users
15:03 RealBadAngel just dl new one
15:04 est31 we have to maintain actual backwards compat, but wield items being shadowed is a "luxury bug" for me
15:04 RealBadAngel whats so hard?
15:04 VanessaE there isn't a new one.
15:04 VanessaE that's what's so hard.
15:04 VanessaE tablet clients are slow to update.
15:04 VanessaE (the maintainers I mean)
15:04 RealBadAngel are you kidding me?
15:04 RealBadAngel check out "HayDay"
15:04 VanessaE no, I'm talking from experience here.
15:04 RealBadAngel without client up to date youre not able to connect
15:05 RealBadAngel and are FORCED to get new one
15:05 VanessaE someone the other day produced a disturbing chart of current-in-use clients.  at least half of the Minetest userbase is out of date.
15:05 est31 no
15:05 gravgun How to make something good: 1. Solid and flexible protocol 2. Code 3. Done
15:05 RealBadAngel which is circa 50mb
15:05 RealBadAngel and they do updates at least once a month
15:05 VanessaE this isn't HayDay.,
15:05 RealBadAngel but philosophy is correct
15:05 gravgun This isn't 2000's either
15:06 VanessaE this is minetest with its ongoing problem of clone clients.
15:06 RealBadAngel sure, lets think on the code to provide compability with all the versions around including fm :)
15:06 VanessaE I'm still getting users who haven't updated enough to see mesh nodes, for crying out loud.
15:07 est31 well thats their fault then
15:07 RealBadAngel because you let them in
15:07 est31 but at least you can tell them "update your client"
15:07 VanessaE just yesterday for example. fortunately that guy was able to update
15:07 RealBadAngel if they were told, go get new one... everybody would be happy
15:07 RealBadAngel after a single download
15:07 VanessaE no
15:07 est31 I have done a PR to check the clientside version clientside
15:07 VanessaE I'd lose like 80% of my userbase
15:07 est31 but it has been muted in a shitstorm
15:07 RealBadAngel thats what you think
15:08 VanessaE that's what I know!
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15:08 RealBadAngel its totally wrong
15:08 VanessaE I lost half of it just by changing my G*d damned server name
15:08 est31 #2508
15:08 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2508 -- Pass version information to joinplayer callback by est31
15:09 est31 even displaying a hint "please update your client" is too much for some people
15:09 VanessaE I'm afraid so
15:09 VanessaE don't get me wrong, I am not saying DON'T do in-client 3d wields.
15:10 nrzkt VanessaE: phone users should use official version and shut up
15:10 VanessaE I'm saying you can't expect most server owners to rely on it so quickly when there's an existing solution.
15:10 VanessaE nrzkt: yes they should, but they won't/
15:10 VanessaE good luck getting them to switch.
15:10 VanessaE I have tried
15:10 VanessaE and tried
15:10 VanessaE and tried,.
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15:10 nrzkt VanessaE: we can add a fuction in minetest server when they connect to insult them
15:10 est31 consult is a more polite term
15:11 VanessaE nrzkt: and make them turn away from minetest entirely?  that's hardly a good idea.
15:11 nrzkt xD
15:11 VanessaE these are 8-10 year old kids
15:11 nrzkt it was a joke
15:11 nrzkt :p
15:11 VanessaE well 8-15, average seems to be about 12.
15:11 nrzkt fucking kid, please update your minetest or i hit your ass
15:11 nrzkt this is a good message no ? :p
15:11 VanessaE no :p
15:11 nrzkt :(
15:12 nrzkt but i really think we could tell users to update their clients
15:12 VanessaE I don't disagree with telling users to upgrade
15:12 nrzkt when they connect to server, server can tell them to update to newer version
15:12 VanessaE but there's no way to do so that they'll actually listen to.
15:12 nrzkt you can do it with a mod no ?
15:12 VanessaE nope.
15:12 nrzkt i do it in my server
15:12 nrzkt how i do it...
15:13 est31 you can do it with a mod, but only if you compiled in debug mode
15:13 RealBadAngel age doesnt matter
15:13 nrzkt https://github.com/nerzhul/minetest/blob/nrz​forked_experiment/src/contrib/server.cpp#L38
15:13 nrzkt oh i do it natively
15:13 est31 minetest.get_player_information(player_name)
15:13 VanessaE RealBadAngel: sure it does.  the smaller the kid, the less likely they'll be to understand "get the official client"
15:14 RealBadAngel just show message "updating your client. please stand by...."
15:14 RealBadAngel and fuckin do it
15:14 nrzkt we can add: if you are a kid, tell you father to di it
15:14 VanessaE nrzkt: these are *american* kids.  ergo, equally stupid parents :-/
15:15 nrzkt tell your brother ? :p
15:15 nrzkt tell your grand ma ?
15:15 est31 perhaps we need better marketing
15:15 nrzkt not marketing but communication
15:15 VanessaE est31: we do.
15:15 nrzkt and the first thing is to tell players to upgrade their clients
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15:15 nrzkt we should add this function in core or buildint before next release
15:15 nrzkt builtin*
15:15 VanessaE nrzkt: the problem is still getting out from under 4 million old,outdated clones
15:15 VanessaE and kids just won't do it
15:15 VanessaE I have trieed
15:15 RealBadAngel such ways used in HayDay effects in millions of players worldwide miliking stupid cows
15:15 nrzkt clones are not our problem
15:16 RealBadAngel can be done?
15:16 RealBadAngel ofc it can
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15:16 est31 RealBadAngel, we arent hayday
15:16 nrzkt the main thing is to have an automated message for update
15:16 nrzkt each time they connect they will see it, they will learn to update their cleints
15:16 VanessaE nrzkt: which doesn't exist in old clients.
15:17 est31 yea
15:17 RealBadAngel est31, no we are not. but idea of having client and server in sync is valid
15:17 VanessaE you can't detect the client version from the server
15:17 est31 VanessaE, you can
15:17 est31 minetest.get_player_information
15:17 VanessaE est31: I mean in Release builds.
15:17 est31 yes
15:17 est31 that has to be changed IMO
15:17 nrzkt what doesn't exist in clients ?
15:17 nrzkt it said the server send the message
15:17 nrzkt i*
15:17 VanessaE nrzkt: an automated way of checking versioning and offering to update.
15:17 nrzkt then it's not a problem with clients :)
15:18 nrzkt oh, i don't talk about offering an update
15:18 est31 at least one should be abled to check the protocol version
15:18 nrzkt but telling them how to do it
15:18 nrzkt ti's the minimum to do, and we don't do it atm
15:18 RealBadAngel also theres another problem with the sync, minetest_game is in continuos async mode
15:18 Tesseract hmmmm: Does my threading PR look good now.  I've fixed everything you mentioned (except for the pthread leaking thing, which was really a question).
15:18 nrzkt i don't agree with automated updating because we are packaged in distros
15:18 VanessaE nrzkt: android.
15:18 kilbith VanessaE: it's not our problem if android players don't get the official release on android
15:18 VanessaE kilbith:  it IS our problem.
15:19 nrzkt no
15:19 VanessaE it *shouldn't* be
15:19 VanessaE but it is.
15:19 nrzkt because we are not maintainer
15:19 VanessaE it's a problem we have to deal with in the most graceful way possible to avoid alienating our userbase.
15:19 est31 VanessaE, automated updates are forbidden by play store AFAIK
15:19 nrzkt it's the problem of maintainers of clone if their client doesn't work with servers
15:19 nrzkt they will be forced to update they stupid outdated forks
15:19 VanessaE est31: even *offering* an update?
15:19 kilbith that's wrong, i do have auto. updates everyday from the play store
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15:20 kilbith but it's configurable
15:20 RealBadAngel what i do think we should forbid connecting different versions. put the game in sync with engine. make the official releases come out more often
15:20 nrzkt kilbith, i  think est31 talks about app updated itself
15:20 nrzkt not playstore checking update
15:20 kilbith i talk about app update too
15:20 nrzkt RBA : not 1 server with 1 version, but 3 versions is sufficient i think
15:20 nrzkt not 20
15:21 nrzkt i looked at stats and we can drop Minetest 0.4.7 and lower
15:21 RealBadAngel if we had chosen syncing we would have anything in the statistics other that last official
15:22 nrzkt yes, but it's too late
15:22 VanessaE nrzkt: drop everything before 0.4.12 if anything is dropped.
15:22 nrzkt now we should do it smother
15:22 RealBadAngel cut the rope
15:22 est31 man
15:22 nrzkt wtf VanessaE, i don't understand
15:22 nrzkt i looked at master server stats with graphs
15:22 est31 why do you not want to give server owners freedom?
15:23 est31 server owners can enable strict protocol checking
15:23 kilbith VanessaE: if some player complain about the outdated homedecor on launchpad, that's not your problem either
15:23 nrzkt est31: agree, but with limit, a maximum version supported
15:23 est31 if they think its so great
15:23 est31 how many have done it
15:23 RealBadAngel if i can hear folks are complainin about meshes?
15:23 VanessaE kilbith: that's not my problem because I don't maintain those packages, but at the same time it IS my problem because I have to field support requests.  thankfully not too many in that instance.
15:24 est31 nrzkt, RealBadAngel my offer is still there, if you get me 8 of the top 10 server owners on the public list to agree to dropping protocol, we can do it.
15:24 RealBadAngel damn how old is meshnodes drawtype?
15:24 est31 but not until then
15:24 kilbith VanessaE: we don't maintain the wacky android forks either
15:24 hmmmm ugh
15:24 est31 if server owners thought it would be so great, they would have done it
15:24 est31 but they dont do
15:24 VanessaE RealBadAngel: that's exactly my point - I had to tell someone just yesterday to update their client for meshnode support.  they were still using 0.4.10.
15:24 est31 we have to follow our users here
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15:24 VanessaE kilbith: and yet, we have to deal with the fallout from them.
15:24 hmmmm why are you being so pushy about dropping reverse compatibility
15:24 est31 NONE of the servers has enabled strict protocol checking AFAIK
15:24 hmmmm is there an actual technical reason why this needs to be done
15:25 nrzkt est31: supporting the two last years versions is sufficient, no need to support minetest before that
15:25 VanessaE est31: for a while, my two dreambuilder servers had that.  then I realized it cut off too many people./
15:25 est31 nrzkt, why is there need to drop support
15:25 hmmmm i asked this question before, there is no need, he just wants to 'clean up' the code
15:25 est31 thats not worth it
15:25 nrzkt 1. users update their clients. 2. have a clear code well supported and well known
15:25 RealBadAngel one thing i know its extremaly hard to solve issues not only in current code but also in all previous ones
15:25 hmmmm of course
15:26 hmmmm i dunno about you but i'm not in the business of forcing users to do things they don't want to do
15:26 nrzkt 3. can evolve minetest
15:26 hmmmm optionally executed code is not holding back minetest
15:26 nrzkt if we support minetest 0.3 we cannot add some features because they don't support it.
15:26 est31 nrzkt, if you have spare time to evolve minetest, document the protocol on the wiki. Then people can do clean re-implementations
15:26 VanessaE there's surely a limit of how much backward compat to retain.
15:27 VanessaE the argument here is where that limit should be and what we do uip to that point.
15:27 VanessaE up*
15:27 hmmmm vanessae:  unless there's an actual reason for doing so I still don't see why it needs to be dropped
15:27 nrzkt the net protocol works like it does now. But it's very very very very hard to evolve the protocole because we should have many conditions to handle, and some has bugs.
15:27 hmmmm the discussion about what the limit should be is how far back reverse compatibility is necessary
15:28 hmmmm i.e., if there is a technical reason for cutting out reverse compat beyond that point, we can do so safely
15:28 est31 but only if there is a technical reason
15:28 hmmmm right
15:28 nrzkt this can take 1 year, but 1 not wait 1 year to do it smoothy
15:28 est31 nrzkt, tell us more about those bugs.
15:28 nrzkt look at minetest 0.4.10 which send u16 for u32 to clients
15:29 est31 ?
15:29 nrzkt when i looked at the code, 7 month ago i see some packets sending u16 to clients but the variable was u32 serverside and client side.
15:30 nrzkt i also see that the server has a race which permit to crash it. It's fixed now, and packets are properly read
15:30 est31 what variable was it?
15:31 nrzkt search my first commits on the repo
15:31 nrzkt when i started to design protocol v25
15:31 VanessaE well this sure went off-topic fast at any rate.
15:32 est31 I know protocol v25, I've done most of it.
15:32 nrzkt you do authentication
15:32 nrzkt and i fix many protocol problems with datas.
15:32 nrzkt you don't do most of it. We worked together.
15:33 est31 I see you did TOCLIENT_DELETE_PARTICLESPAWNER
15:33 nrzkt yes, it was the packet which has u16 problems
15:33 est31 TOCLIENT_ACCESS_DENIED was done by you too
15:33 est31 and parts of the new init packed
15:34 est31 packet*
15:34 est31 also TOCLIENT_HELLO
15:34 nrzkt we are not talking about a recompense for the devel which has many lines to code here.
15:34 nrzkt please come back to the initial discussion.
15:34 est31 but rest was auth, which was done by me
15:34 nrzkt RBA: what are your arguments ?
15:35 nrzkt i also patched the Packet handling, changed the packet reading mode
15:35 nrzkt and improve performance in some low layers, but it's not the problem here.
15:35 VanessaE what does all this got to do with fixing attached entity lighting?  or client-side wielding?
15:35 VanessaE what has*
15:35 est31 nrzkt, thats nice, but has nothing to do with protocol v25
15:35 nrzkt nothing, and we are talking about minetest communication problem about version update
15:35 nrzkt stop that est31 this is stupid, you want a medal, take it.
15:36 VanessaE nrzkt: yeah, y'all went off on a tangent and that off onto another tangent :P
15:36 est31 nrzkt, no I just wonder what technical arguments you have
15:36 nrzkt too many maths for me, i forget my graduate courses :p
15:36 est31 to drop old versions
15:36 est31 you just list what you have improved
15:36 nrzkt you are out of course, you talk about new protocol, not old
15:36 est31 so yes take your medal
15:36 nrzkt i don't want a medal
15:37 nrzkt stop that now.
15:37 est31 but what does low level speedup to do with dropping old protocol versions
15:37 nrzkt you mixed everything...
15:38 est31 I see now nrzkt what you've meant with the u16/u32 thing
15:38 est31 agreed, its a bug
15:38 est31 so servers which want to have more than 2^16-1 particle spawners have to enable strict protocol checking
15:39 est31 but particle spawners are not worth it IMO
15:39 est31 lets give the choice to server owners
15:39 nrzkt particle spawner is is increasing no ?
15:40 est31 well thats a problem with id management serverside
15:40 est31 classical id assignment problem
15:45 RealBadAngel whatever the feature, whatever the fix. point is when we fix it older clients wont get it
15:45 RealBadAngel or make the end effect even worse
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15:46 est31 RealBadAngel, can you please ask server owners to enable strict protocol checking? This is not a discussion you have to have with me, you have to have this discussion with the users of our software.
15:47 nrzkt est
15:47 RealBadAngel i know, but thats the effect of our politics
15:47 RealBadAngel not theirs
15:47 nrzkt est31: i really think we should add a message sent to clients with outdated client to tell us to upgrade
15:47 nrzkt just a message to inform them, if they don't know, why they should update ?
15:48 RealBadAngel for starters just a warning message could do
15:49 RealBadAngel like: it looks like youre using older client. if youre experiencing some drama please do update it in the first place ;"
15:49 est31 nrzkt, I agree with that, but you should be abled to customize the message, and to turn it off. Best is that you make it moddable (minetest.player_uses_outd​ated_client(playername)), then server owners can integrate it into their system.
15:49 MinetestForFun joined #minetest-dev
15:49 nrzkt use a minetest.conf string value then
15:49 nrzkt and we can add it to buildint
15:50 nrzkt builtin
15:50 nrzkt called at every joinplayer
15:50 est31 and optional, yes
15:50 nrzkt then server owners only have to disable it
15:50 nrzkt enable it by default, because it's the most important
15:50 est31 ok
15:50 nrzkt this is the most important to do
15:50 nrzkt communicate.
15:50 est31 ?
15:51 nrzkt the most important is to communicate information to our users, server admins & players
15:52 nrzkt we should add this important feature in  the changelog and warn admins about the importance of this message
15:52 VanessaE most will ignore it
15:52 VanessaE or not see it
15:52 VanessaE (that's not an argument to not add it)
15:52 VanessaE (merely an argument not to *rely* on it)
15:53 est31 we can't do much else
15:53 est31 except more marketing for the official minetest
15:53 VanessaE *nod)
15:53 VanessaE *nod*
15:54 est31 it is basically marketing
15:54 nrzkt maybe, but they are advertised, we are not minetest support team which come to each user by helicopter
15:54 VanessaE nrzkt: no, that's Tesla. :)
15:54 nrzkt xD
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16:02 est31 I just think we shouldn't feel that the problems we solve (u32 vs u16 spawner issue) are more important than our users. I think users are more important.
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16:08 TBC_x I would just append build date after the version string
16:08 nrzkt i agree
16:08 nrzkt but our users didn't use minetest < 0.4.7
16:08 nrzkt we can drop support.
16:09 rubenwardy It's not like we have real support
16:09 rubenwardy new clients can't connect to Redcrab
16:10 est31 well, redcrab has to update then
16:10 rubenwardy which is 0.4.4
16:10 VanessaE from the previous discussion last week:  http://meow.minetest.net/tmp/s​erverlist_stats_2015-03-14.txt
16:10 rubenwardy so dropping remaining support for versions where the support doesn't actually work is good
16:10 est31 thats their problem. We dont have a majority of users on redcrab do we
16:10 VanessaE rubenwardy: actually they can as long as the user deletes one file from the cache that's supplied by recrab.
16:10 rubenwardy oh
16:11 est31 The core problem is that the people who develop the unofficial clones want to make money with inserting ads/demanding money. As long as the money is still coming in, they have no motivation to update. So we have to find some way to convince the app maintainers to update the version.
16:12 est31 without losing users on the way.
16:13 rubenwardy that's a different issue, one I wanted to solve with #2442
16:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2442 -- Notifications of new engine versions.
16:13 est31 rubenwardy, that doesnt solve it
16:13 est31 its just for new versions
16:13 est31 we need a solution that works for old ones
16:13 rubenwardy it could be done server side
16:13 est31 yes
16:14 est31 thats what nrz wants to add.
16:14 est31 nrzkt, can you make a pr?
16:14 rubenwardy what's the problem, then?
16:15 est31 nrz and RBA want to drop older versions, for no apparent reason
16:15 rubenwardy what's the point in keeping half support?
16:16 est31 its sufficient for most people
16:16 est31 if 90% of the features are right, its better than none
16:16 VanessaE I say use the server list itself.
16:17 VanessaE feed to clients a modified server list that puts a two- or three-line warning in above all the public servers.
16:17 VanessaE drop support for THAT in say a year
16:17 est31 ?
16:18 rubenwardy That's a bit hacky :P
16:18 VanessaE hacky yes
16:18 est31 it does the job
16:18 VanessaE but guaranteed to work on nearly every client in existendce.
16:18 VanessaE existence*
16:18 TBC_x is the server list notified of client version?
16:19 est31 so please nrzkt RealBadAngel dont run around demanding to cut out half or more of minetest's population. please try to find ways to get the population to newer versions first, if you are so motivated to drop support for old versions. You have my approval for a message on join.
16:19 nrzkt VanessaE i will show you graphs later, i have a kibana which have parsed all logs
16:19 VanessaE after a year (or less?), stop issuing the warning via that method because by then, in-client support for a *proper* warning dialong would surely be in and everyone would hopefully have it
16:19 nrzkt all logs from the begging to last week
16:19 VanessaE nrzkt: I think I saw that log.
16:20 TBC_x I think that warning should be there for good
16:20 nrzkt i don't send the address of the graph public
16:20 VanessaE nrzkt: ok, I'm thinking of a different log then.
16:21 VanessaE it was like this one, but focused just on versions, without platform info:  http://meow.minetest.net/tmp/s​erverlist_stats_2015-03-14.txt
16:21 nrzkt est31: i don't want to drop older version, just unused version, usage < 5%
16:21 nrzkt est31: cannot provide a PR these day, i'm at work and i need to add a note to many of my students for tommorow :)
16:21 VanessaE of course that one's old, march of this year
16:22 est31 ok
16:22 VanessaE sfan5: *poke*
16:22 sfan5 VanessaE: *poke back*
16:22 VanessaE sfan5: do you have a newer version of ^^^^ lying around?
16:22 sfan5 no
16:23 VanessaE ok.
16:23 sfan5 but if you want just a single statistic i can give you that
16:23 sfan5 making a whole report is pretty time consuming
16:23 rubenwardy Just the version %
16:24 est31 sfan5, nrz has said that from the 25% for 0.4.7 and older, 20% are "unknown", he says that they can be disregarded. Do you know whether older versions didnt send the version in the user agent??
16:24 nrzkt i will give you vanessaE
16:24 nrzkt please wait
16:24 VanessaE wow, lots of gratuitous use of cat there ;)
16:24 nrzkt they send a git version hash
16:24 nrzkt http://minetest-stats.unix-experien​ce.fr/#/dashboard/Monthly-stats?_g=​%28refreshInterval:%28display:Off,pause:!f,section:0,value:0%29,time:%28from:now-​2y,mode:quick,to:now%29%29&_a=%28filters:!%28%29​,panels:!%28%28col:1,id:Version-usage-per-month,​row:1,size_x:12,size_y:5,type:visualization%29,%​28col:1,id:%27Version-usage-per-month-%28stacked​%29%27,row:6,size_x:12,size_y:6,type:visualizati​on%29%29,query:%28query_string:%28analyze_wild
16:24 nrzkt card:!t,query:%27*%27%29%29,t​itle:%27Monthly%20stats%27%29
16:25 sfan5 est31: 0.4.7 or older do not send version info
16:25 VanessaE eeek
16:25 nrzkt please set this link in your browser
16:25 sfan5 god damnbit nrzkt just use a shortener
16:25 nrzkt and look at the graph :p
16:25 sfan5 -b
16:25 VanessaE nrzkt: please bitly it.
16:26 nrzkt http://goo.gl/H3xXis
16:26 nrzkt time can be consuming, please only consult it
16:27 nrzkt i let it public for 15 min, after i stop the service
16:27 nrzkt in the logs empty users agents are only 8 in all logs
16:28 sfan5 VanessaE: gUnknown is android and 0.4.11 or newever as mentioned in my stat files
16:28 VanessaE that's what I figured.
16:29 nrzkt for the graphs you have the top 30 versions here
16:29 nrzkt other version are < 0.1%
16:29 VanessaE so between 0.4.10 and the "gUnknown" category, that's nearly 2/3 of the userbase (in nrz's graph that is)
16:30 est31 sfan5, am I right that 0.4.6 had no custom user agent at all?
16:30 est31 or 0.4.7
16:30 sfan5 0.4.7 or older had no user agent
16:30 est31 ok.
16:30 nrzkt yes and gunknown is 0.4.10 +
16:31 VanessaE 6 times as many users in that range as 0.4.12
16:31 nrzkt it's not single user here
16:31 nrzkt it's single connection
16:32 nrzkt i don't group by IP because i don't have IP
16:32 est31 I just want to find out whether nrzkt is right or sfan5.
16:32 nrzkt sfan5 do'nt give me
16:33 est31 because sfan5 says that 25% have o.4.7 or older
16:33 sfan5 ?
16:33 est31 and nrz says its only 5%
16:33 sfan5 then something is wrong with how nrz parses the data
16:34 nrzkt http://pastebin.com/UqCP1YUx
16:34 nrzkt it's the logstash filter
16:34 nrzkt and here is the regexp used
16:35 nrzkt MINETESTCLIENTLOG \[%{HTTPDATE:timestamp}\] "%{DATA:client_name}/(?:%{DATA:client_​version}(?:-%{DATA:git_rev}(?:-%{DATA:​git_rev2}(?:%{DATA:git_rev3})?)?)?)? \(%{DATA:os_name}(?:/%{DATA:os_version} %{DATA:os_architecture})?\)"
16:35 sfan5 cat game.log | cut -d '"' -f 6-7 | grep -E "^(Minetest|-)\"" | wc -l
16:35 sfan5 i use that one for 0.4.7 or older
16:36 TBC_x It would be very useful to log ip though
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16:37 nrzkt it's only in sfan5 results
16:37 sfan5 the ip is logged
16:37 sfan5 but i did not give nrzkt the data with ips
16:38 sfan5 because privacy
16:38 nrzkt but i could be good to have better stats for me to have the ip, because i could merge version/ip in one result
16:38 sfan5 i doubt that it gives better stats
16:38 nrzkt and don't count 10 users for a signle user launch 10 times its client
16:38 sfan5 well i could do that before giving you the logs
16:38 TBC_x if you run it through uniq, you can get more realistic stats
16:38 nrzkt i need the date
16:39 sfan5 you have the date
16:39 nrzkt with a stupid bash you cannot have uniq entries
16:39 nrzkt if you give me the date
16:39 sfan5 I'm pretty sure you have the date
16:39 nrzkt your regexp didn't match on the first file you give me
16:39 nrzkt yes i have it
16:39 nrzkt but i need to have date + ip + client version to have a single user entry for an interval of time
16:40 nrzkt atm i cannot merge per version/ip
16:40 TBC_x you can get grep output with unique lines
16:40 nrzkt no TBC
16:40 nrzkt you are using a stupid bash
16:40 nrzkt to have a single user over a time interval you need: time, IP and useragent
16:41 nrzkt uniq is stupid, if i have time i cannot merge for a amount of time
16:41 sfan5 wtf
16:41 sfan5 who even said I need to use bash?
16:41 nrzkt you use bash atm :p
16:41 nrzkt and i use a professionnal tool to do stats
16:41 sfan5 actually i use zsh
16:41 sfan5 well ok
16:41 nrzkt yes shell, i use zsh too on my server
16:41 sfan5 are my stats inferior now?
16:42 sfan5 just because i don't use a "professional" tool?
16:42 nrzkt they are not correct because they don't take all the arguments to have real stats.
16:43 sfan5 lolwat
16:43 nrzkt we use kibana at work to do business intelligence based on server logs. This permit us to have some ROI
16:43 sfan5 ofc they are correct
16:43 sfan5 they just count each GET /list as one
16:43 nrzkt i should take my train, we will talk later, have a nice day
16:43 TBC_x define correct data
16:43 sfan5 and dont do any merging
16:43 nrzkt yes, but you don't merge signle user into one entry
16:43 nrzkt this is the most important thing
16:43 sfan5 correct
16:43 sfan5 not really
16:43 est31 no
16:44 nrzkt i can ddos with my 0.4.12 to have 1M entries :p
16:44 nrzkt ++
16:44 sfan5 well thats nice
16:44 est31 I agree with sfan5 we should value users after how much they use minetest
16:44 sfan5 problem is we can't
16:44 est31 if they use it once a month, they should be valued less than if they use it daily
16:44 sfan5 all we can do is merge entries in a time frame by ip and user agent
16:44 est31 sfan5, we do if we dont count users but requests to /list
16:45 sfan5 we do what?
16:45 est31 then those who make many requests to /list get valued more than those who make few
16:47 sfan5 correct
16:48 TBC_x sfan5: how many unique requests from IPv6 do you get?
16:48 sfan5 http://meow.minetest.net/tmp/s​erverlist_stats_2015-03-14.txt
16:48 sfan5 the value there should be pretty accurate
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16:52 TBC_x can you send me all acesses from 2a00:1028:96c0:4482:21d:72ff:fe09:636e ?
16:53 hmmmm [12:44 PM] <est31> I agree with sfan5 we should value users after how much they use minetest
16:53 hmmmm "we" should value users?
16:53 hmmmm we do, those two people do not
16:53 TBC_x sfan5
16:53 sfan5 what
16:53 sfan5 oh
16:53 sfan5 why
16:53 TBC_x Need sample data
16:54 sfan5 for what
16:54 TBC_x for my generator
16:54 hmmmm needless to say i won't approve of any kind of change that breaks compatibility.  we should also be on the lookout for sneaky surprises in commits from either of them
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16:54 est31 ↑ this
16:56 sfan5 TBC_x: there are none
16:57 TBC_x then send me cat log | tail, including IP, but annonymized to 255.255.255.255
16:58 TBC_x please
16:58 sfan5 haha no
16:58 sfan5 actually i found a few
16:58 sfan5 2a00:1028:96c0:4482:21d:72ff:fe09:636e - - [15/Jul/2015:18:28:17 +0000] "GET /list?proto_version_min=13&proto_version_max=25 HTTP/1.1" 200 140322 "-" "Minetest/0.4.12-dev-8ac0cf5-dirty (Linux/4.0.5-1-ARCH x86_64)" "-"
16:58 TBC_x thanks
17:01 TBC_x are there any line breaks?
17:07 rubenwardy I just did a git bisect, but it didn't work.
17:08 rubenwardy https://gist.github.com/rube​nwardy/19a6e332f86431e6f45e
17:08 rubenwardy this doesn't work but it should
17:08 rubenwardy not in 0.4.12-dev or 0.4.12
17:08 rubenwardy it works with minimal, but not with MTG
17:09 rubenwardy and I've had enough of Minetest for today
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17:15 nrzkt sfan5: please replace your log parsing with faster parsing by removing this ugly pipes
17:15 nrzkt cat game.log | cut -d '"' -f 6-7 | grep -c -E "^(Minetest|-)\""
17:15 sfan5 how about you don't tell me what to do
17:15 nrzkt grep -c count lines
17:16 nrzkt this is the first optimize
17:16 sfan5 please
17:16 sfan5 i don't want your lecture about optimizing command
17:16 sfan5 i don't want you lecture about using professional tools
17:16 sfan5 i don't want your lecture about how my statistics are wrong
17:16 sfan5 thanks
17:17 nrzkt then continue to give stats for non unique clients
17:17 kilbith i don't want to learn
17:17 sfan5 you could have told me "you should only count unique clients"
17:17 sfan5 but no
17:17 sfan5 you needed to tell me that the tools i use suck
17:18 nrzkt it's not adapted to a such usage
17:18 sfan5 that i should be using professional tools like you
17:18 est31 bash/zsh/even sh are professional tools too btw.
17:18 nrzkt no
17:18 nrzkt this is a good for basic toolkits
17:18 nrzkt not for parsing millions of lines of log to do stats
17:19 est31 remember the donald e knuth story where he had a page long pascal example, then a guy came around crunching it to a few lines of bash?
17:19 nrzkt this is deprecated and indications are not really correct because shell doesn't use stats algorithms
17:19 est31 pages long*
17:19 est31 nrzkt, either way algorithms are only about speed, not about actual output
17:20 est31 perhaps its faster to have dedicated code, but its not "more correct"
17:22 nrzkt the kibana code talk to elasticsearch to give it stats about entries in the index
17:23 nrzkt for your script sfan5: to win some time you should do :  awk -F '"' '{print $2}' game.log | grep -c -E "^(Minetest|-)\""
17:23 sfan5 stfu
17:24 nrzkt this read one time stdout and one time the file
17:24 nrzkt with your stats it's very slow because you read 1 time the file and 3 times stdout :)
17:24 TBC_x it doesn't matter
17:25 TBC_x there's no random access
17:25 nrzkt and next, improve awk to count the entries itself and do stats :)
17:25 nrzkt okay TBC_x have you parsed 800Mb files with shell ?
17:25 TBC_x not yet
17:25 TBC_x writing generator
17:25 init if we actually an actual performance improvement, we could rewrite it into another language with a compiler that can generate fast binaries
17:25 nrzkt okay, do it and compare
17:26 nrzkt awk can do the action i show you in one call, but i'm not very aware with awk
17:26 init so can perl
17:26 nrzkt you don't need to re-invent a binary which does everything for u
17:26 TBC_x gonna do my own shell hacking
17:26 init and shell, too
17:27 TBC_x btw, where are the useragent strings?
17:27 TBC_x in the source
17:27 sfan5 httpfetch.cpp i think
17:27 sfan5 os version is done in porting.cpp
17:27 TBC_x ok
17:33 VanessaE bbl
18:09 est31 joined #minetest-dev
18:10 * est31 brings this pr to attention, it gives servers the option to display a "reconnect" button if they restart or crash: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2922
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18:13 nrzkt always +1 for me
18:14 est31 I guess this is a larger change, so it will need 2 +1
18:15 nrzkt ok
18:17 TBC_x theoretically, it could be added to every disconnect
18:17 est31 well, discuss that with nrz, he was against
18:17 est31 original design included that, yes.
18:18 nrzkt if i disconnect from the server i doesn't want to have the "please reconnect" form :)
18:19 nrzkt include that for unneeded reboot is good, for other cases it's just anoying
18:19 TBC_x well... for every involuntary disconnect
18:20 nrzkt crash, server reboot or kick is good
18:20 est31 (aka TOCLIENT_ACCESS_DENIED)
18:20 nrzkt but propose me te reconnect if my password is wrong ?
18:20 nrzkt i will re send the same password
18:20 TBC_x good point
18:20 TBC_x well... for every involuntary disconnect from game world
18:21 nrzkt it's cases covered by this pr
18:21 TBC_x k then
18:21 TBC_x damn... I hate my tension to overengineer everything
18:52 est31 joined #minetest-dev
19:04 nrzkt that's better :p
19:07 Krock #2948
19:07 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2948 -- Fix MSVC number conversion warning by SmallJoker
19:15 paramat joined #minetest-dev
19:18 paramat nore, Tesseract, any comments on adding steelblock to stairs mod, when i add acacia? game#581
19:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/581 -- New stairs and slabs discussion
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21:06 RealBadAngel VanessaE, here?
21:08 RealBadAngel VanessaE, the bug you have blamed me for, was here before
21:09 RealBadAngel wield3d mod is glitchy propably because attachements code is glitchy too
21:11 est31 ^
21:18 RealBadAngel i think that attached objects lighting never gets updated at all
21:19 RealBadAngel enviroment.cpp line 2357, theres light updated for all the active objects
21:20 RealBadAngel but i cant see how then attached ones could be updated
21:40 RealBadAngel ok, it does update them too
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22:05 RealBadAngel est31, here?
22:05 est31 why
22:05 RealBadAngel i know the reason for that glitch
22:05 est31 whats the reason
22:06 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/​blob/master/src/environment.cpp#L2380
22:07 RealBadAngel somehow on VE server pos is always "not ok"
22:07 RealBadAngel in else there ive put dstream<<"Pos not ok, "<<p.X<<","<<p.Y<<","<<p.Z<<std::endl;
22:07 RealBadAngel and got:
22:08 RealBadAngel http://pastebin.com/PaUNdpiH
22:08 RealBadAngel where all of these coords seems to be valid
22:09 RealBadAngel but pos_ok is set to false
22:14 TBC_x it looks like it depends on uninitialized value
22:15 TBC_x oh, it does not
22:15 TBC_x didn't notice the missing *
22:16 RealBadAngel param0 in returned node is always 127
22:17 TBC_x atMapBlock::getNodeNoCheck *valid_position = data != NULL;
22:17 TBC_x oops
22:17 TBC_x in atMapBlock::getNodeNoCheck() { *valid_position = data != NULL; ... }
22:17 TBC_x stop doing such checks
22:18 RealBadAngel who shall stop?
22:18 TBC_x anyone who's doing it
22:19 RealBadAngel idk whos author of that code
22:19 TBC_x easy to look up
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22:25 TBC_x 5b8855e8 (Craig Robbins 2014-11-14 18:05:34 +1000 331)          *valid_position = data != NULL;
22:38 RealBadAngel whoever made it, looks like getNodeNoEx is able to return content ignore and set non valid flags for obviously valid coordinates
22:44 Routh Guys I'm getting this crash a lot lately when testing my mapgen: http://pastebin.com/FGTYwK94
22:44 Routh It wasn't happening at all until this week..
22:56 est31 is that the full stack trace?
23:06 Routh est31 Yes
23:07 Routh No on a map that seems to do it 100% of the time.
23:07 Routh Everytime I move far enough to spin a mapgen thread, dead.
23:08 est31 can you rebase?
23:08 Routh define: rebase?
23:08 est31 er
23:08 est31 can you bisect?
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23:09 Routh Sorry, still not certain what you mean.
23:10 Routh Are you referring to me updating my checkout of the source/
23:10 paramat related to #2941 ? and should that have been closed?
23:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2941 -- Serialization error
23:11 est31 no paramat thats something else
23:11 paramat okay
23:11 est31 this is clear wrong usage
23:11 est31 somebody tries to serialize userdata here
23:12 est31 dunno whether its fault of you Routh or if its a bug with us, but something goes wrong
23:12 Routh My most recent code is here.
23:12 Routh https://github.com/Routhinator/tekkest
23:14 Routh So if it's the mods etc it should be possible to reproduce. If I regen this map right now I won't get one that does it 100% of the time.. so is there any way i can get more useful output (debug flag?) when I start the server?
23:16 TBC_x RBA, try to replace *valid_position = data != NULL; with *valid_position = isValidPosition(x, y, z); in mapblock.h:331
23:17 Routh Was behind a few commits, I'll try recompiling.
23:18 TBC_x when I've looked into history, it was a couple of times changed between two of those
23:22 wilkgr joined #minetest-dev
23:57 RealBadAngel TBC_x, building

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