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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-07-15

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03:26 VanessaE Could someone consider adding a feature to let players' name tags "fade away" as the players get further from the viewer?  I know (now) that there's a max-transfer-distance setting, but I guess that's an all-or-nothing sort of thing.
03:26 VanessaE how about making players' names fade gradually according to that setting?
03:29 VanessaE today my server peaked at 53 users, and players' names are, according to some folks, basically turning parts of the view white because of there being so many in one spot.
03:30 TBC_x Ideally, when there will be client-side modding all those things could be optional
03:31 VanessaE perhaps, but that's the sort of thing that needs to operate totally realtime, so it needs to be in-core with a setting, rather than in a mod
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07:15 RealBadAngel crecca, here?
07:17 VanessaE greetz, RealBadAngel
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07:18 RealBadAngel hi Ve
07:19 RealBadAngel i guess thx to relief mapping code and new normalmaps i will be just shoot down with incoming issues ;)
07:19 VanessaE don't forget about those other textures
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07:19 VanessaE desert stone/cobble/sand/stonebrick
07:20 crecca RealBadAngel: yes I'm here
07:20 RealBadAngel crecca, please make a screenshot how it looks like for you
07:21 crecca ok
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07:24 RealBadAngel VanessaE, im making new normals one by one, you have saw yesterday the results
07:24 VanessaE ok.
07:25 RealBadAngel theres no script to make them all at one time
07:25 RealBadAngel i have to try, try and try again ;)
07:26 VanessaE RealBadAngel: well I meant for example, copy default stone --> desert stone since the texture is the same, only the color is different.
07:26 VanessaE same for default stone bricks -> desert stone bricks
07:26 VanessaE and desert vs regular sand
07:26 VanessaE copy the normals that is.
07:29 RealBadAngel VanessaE, thats obvious. i just havent made new pr yet
07:30 VanessaE RealBadAngel: ok, just a reminder is all.
07:30 RealBadAngel last time you reminded me desert stone i showed you a screenie
07:31 RealBadAngel https://imgrush.com/Yei7bxNd3Gk1.png
07:31 VanessaE oh yes, I forgot
07:32 VanessaE btw that would seem to imply that there's still a view angle error in the parallax code ;)
07:32 VanessaE (since the two textures with identical parallax info don't quite line up)
07:33 RealBadAngel they almost do
07:34 RealBadAngel atm idk what makes the difference
07:36 RealBadAngel crecca, and? youre painting the screenshot?
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07:39 VanessaE lol
07:41 RealBadAngel that could be actually interesting, how folks are percepting what you have done ;)
07:41 crecca RealBadAngel: it is born in pain
07:41 crecca http://i.imgur.com/WcUSyBE.png
07:41 crecca http://i.imgur.com/sJEw25p.png
07:42 hmmmm oh nice
07:42 hmmmm i just noticed another nerzhul fuckup
07:42 crecca it happens only if I have the three options selected: mipmap, bumpmapping, and normalmaps
07:42 hmmmm god dammit, relying on platform dependent behavior is bad.  this is how we got the wstring problem.
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07:43 RealBadAngel crecca this show actual triangles when rendering
07:44 crecca yup
07:44 RealBadAngel crecca, i need to ask you for game backup
07:45 RealBadAngel without cache
07:45 crecca what do you mean?
07:45 crecca you want me to pack it and sand it to you?
07:45 RealBadAngel but binaries, world used, pos of the scene
07:45 RealBadAngel and the mods
07:45 crecca just an executable?
07:45 RealBadAngel upload it somwhere
07:46 RealBadAngel all except the media cache
07:46 crecca I don't have mods
07:46 RealBadAngel so youre connecting to the server yes?
07:47 crecca yeah
07:47 crecca I can recreate in singleplayer
07:47 crecca if you need
07:48 RealBadAngel preferably
07:48 crecca what was the method for saving the map locally?
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07:49 RealBadAngel makin map local is not the point
07:50 RealBadAngel what is your platfrom?
07:52 RealBadAngel i need to go now, please pm me with all the details
07:52 crecca nvm
07:52 RealBadAngel game ver, system etc
07:52 crecca ok
07:52 RealBadAngel and please upload somwhere your zipped game folder
07:52 RealBadAngel just without media cache
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08:11 crecca #c3dead is the greatest commit number
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08:22 Krock ^^
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10:59 ra_ Anybody can help me with this forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12816 ? Server erased map.sqlite size = 0 byte
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14:41 ExcaliburZero I'm thinking about trying to make my first change to Minetest. What would be a good way to compile Minetest with the changes I make to the source?
14:48 TBC_x cd build && cmake .. & make ?
14:49 TBC_x whoops... cd build && cmake .. && make
14:50 ExcaliburZero Would that keep the build separate from my previous installation of Minetest (Dev Build)?
14:50 ExcaliburZero Just want to make suer that I don't mess up the version I play with.
14:51 VanessaE ExcaliburZero: make clean ; rm -f CMakeCache.txt ; cmake . -DRUN_IN_PLACE=1 -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release -DENABLE_FREETYPE=true -DENABLE_LEVELDB=1 ; make -j8
14:51 VanessaE that's all you need to do, aside from installing the dependencies, of course.
14:51 VanessaE and change -j8 to be however many cores you have, plus 1 or 2.
14:52 ExcaliburZero Thanks! I
14:52 VanessaE this will compile it and keep it within its' own folder.
14:52 VanessaE you can just bin/minetest to run it.
14:54 ExcaliburZero Okay, I'm running the command now. I think I should already have the dependencies install from previous uses of the one line install command from the forums.
14:55 ExcaliburZero Looks like it worked. Thanks!
14:55 VanessaE yep, you should be good then
14:55 VanessaE enjoy :)
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15:18 Calinou make -j$(grep -c "processor" /proc/cpuinfo)
15:19 Calinou automatic detection
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15:54 ExcaliburZero So I started working on making my first change to the source and came up with one commit so far (more to come). However, I looked at the commit on GitHub, and it looks like my editor (Atom) removed a extra tab on a "blank" line. Would it be correct to remove such uneeded tabs, or should I set my editor to keep them in?
15:54 ExcaliburZero https://github.com/ExcaliburZero/minetest/com​mit/be191625854cbf374cebc459b1c12a0bd5304bca
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16:17 VanessaE two more backtraces added to #2913
16:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2913 -- Unexplained, random segfaults and aborts
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16:31 Calinou ExcaliburZero, change settings of whitespace package to not trim whitespace on save
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16:32 hmmmm ExcaliburZero, that's not an issue
16:33 est31 hmmmm, https://github.com/minetest/minete​st/pull/2912#discussion_r34642464
16:33 est31 += is fastest for string concatenation according to a test
16:34 hmmmm no, no, no... nothing is faster than the other, this is all platform independent bullocks
16:34 hmmmm dependent*
16:34 hmmmm do things the way which makes the most sense
16:35 hmmmm if you actually wanted to concatenate strings the fastest way possible, you would not be using C++
16:35 hmmmm you'd be using raw pointers and memcpy
16:35 est31 so why is += discouraged then?
16:35 est31 or is it not
16:35 hmmmm it most certainly isn't
16:35 hmmmm i don't understand who said that or why they'd say such a thing
16:36 est31 I think I remember you commenting on RBA's PR once but i may be mistaken
16:36 hmmmm for appending a single character?
16:36 est31 so its completely ok to write string = string + "text"; then?
16:36 hmmmm absolutely...
16:37 hmmmm appending a single character *could* be done with std::string::push_back(), which avoids the need for creating a new string literal and avoids allocating a new std::string
16:38 hmmmm the problem with RealBadAngel's code was that he always allocated that unnecessary std::string for absolutely no good reason
16:38 hmmmm but it's not even a problem
16:38 hmmmm it's just something that isn't 100% optimal
16:40 est31 hrmm might be a relic of my java past to dislike +
16:40 est31 = http://stackoverflow.com/a/1532547
16:46 Warr1024_ .net definitely and java probably optimize string + operators to use efficient stringbuilder mechanisms where practical, anyway.
16:46 Warr1024_ don't worry about "slow" code until your profiler confirms that it's a problem.
16:48 est31 yea, the answers in that thread said it too
16:48 est31 it optimizes a = a + "hello" + "world";
16:49 est31 but for(sometinh){a = a + "*";} isnt optimized
16:49 Warr1024_ it's also possible that a compiler may leave strings in mutable form until referenced outside of your loop
16:50 * twoelk|2 just had someone interacting on his none interact server and is confused
16:52 est31 what are general opinion on #2910
16:52 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2910 -- Treegen: Add enable_unique_ids option by est31
16:52 est31 s*
16:53 ExcaliburZero Sorry, for the slight delay in reply. But should I keep extra whitespace tabs in or remove them? hmmmm noted that it shouldn't be an issue, but Calinou gave me instructions on how to do so, so I'd assume he is telling me to leave the whitespace in.
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16:55 hmmmm ExcaliburZero:  the official policy for a while has been to remove trailing whitespaces when present
16:56 ExcaliburZero Ok, thanks hmmm!
16:56 hmmmm keeping that setting enabled gradually cleans the files affected by trailing whitespace problems, and also it makes it easier for contributors to submit code without new whitespace errors
16:57 est31 RealBadAngel, btw have you fixed your CRLF problem?
16:59 est31 ExcaliburZero, if we use info.txt we should make a warning that its deprecated
16:59 est31 Also, commit messages are in present tense
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17:03 est31 VanessaE, the second and third backtraces look more promising than the first one, but I have to look at them more closely
17:05 hmmmm that being said, string operations do take up a surprising amount of time
17:05 hmmmm gregorycu optimized an innocent-looking piece of code that recorded the reason why a mapblock was modified to take a char pointer instead of a string reference
17:06 hmmmm made the function (which was very hot) like 2x as fast
17:06 hmmmm and then I got rid of the strings completely and made it 6x faster :p
17:06 est31 heh
17:06 ExcaliburZero Okay, est31, I'll change the commit description to be past tense. Though how would we handle noting that info.txt is depreciated?
17:07 ExcaliburZero Also I made a new commit that adds backwards compatibility for "info.txt":
17:07 ExcaliburZero https://github.com/ExcaliburZero/minetest/com​mit/a99441dc05aa00ba67ef255fdb444fa56719a7fb
17:07 ExcaliburZero Still need to change the tense for it though.
17:09 est31 ExcaliburZero, I would do a if file_exists(infofile) then inside the other if, and there I'd call minetest.log
17:09 est31 I think there is the method warn(
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17:10 ExcaliburZero Okay, I'll try that.
17:11 est31 ok you can't use warn, use minetest.log
17:12 est31 Tesseract's log pr adds the warn loglevel,once its theree it can be changed
17:12 ExcaliburZero So something like this:
17:12 ExcaliburZero if file_exists(infofile) then
17:12 ExcaliburZero minetest.log("info.txt is depreciated. description.txt should be used instead.");
17:12 ExcaliburZero end
17:13 est31 yea
17:16 ExcaliburZero Okay, how does this commit look?
17:16 ExcaliburZero https://github.com/ExcaliburZero/minetest/com​mit/7e8b35e1dcbc9a207b4f0730f16368ce7e0a40be
17:17 est31 not good
17:17 est31 the second if is placed wrongly
17:18 ExcaliburZero How so?
17:18 ExcaliburZero Sorry, I'm not very used to C++.
17:18 est31 thats lua
17:19 ExcaliburZero *facepalm
17:19 est31 think,, when should we log?
17:19 est31 we should only log if there is an info.txt file, not if there is a description.txt file
17:19 est31 also we should not log if there are both files, because texture packs can do that for backwards compat
17:20 ExcaliburZero Oh, I see the issue.
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17:22 ExcaliburZero Okay, I think I've fixed it:
17:22 ExcaliburZero https://github.com/ExcaliburZero/minetest/com​mit/70beff89f03f986d9569b81b61d3cd22bf5a05b6
17:23 est31 +1
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17:39 TBC_x are in C++ code  any facilities to do debug logging?
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17:41 est31 TBC_x, there is dstream, but thats to be removed
17:42 est31 I simply print to errorstream
17:42 est31 errorstream << "message" << std::endl;
17:42 est31 you have to include log.h
17:42 TBC_x k, thanks
17:55 TBC_x I wonder whether the server could use some sort of culling algorithm
17:56 TBC_x because while I'm waiting at the border, the server still digs up blocks deep underneath
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18:03 est31 what do people think
18:04 est31 I want to have blame-ability and attribution (both go hand in hand here) for translations, but otoh, i dont want the "noise" of single line edits from weblate
18:04 est31 we have multiple options here
18:05 est31 1. use a separate repository for translations (git submodule or subtree)
18:06 est31 2. don't have attributions, and have blame-ability by retaining history in local clones
18:07 est31 3. accept the noise
18:08 est31 I'm for 1.
18:10 Calinou I don't know of any project that does 1.
18:10 Calinou the best translation scheme IMO is to make contributors release their translations as CC0, so attribution is optional
18:11 Calinou we can do it by hand in the Credits menu
18:12 est31 so you say 2 with attribution in credits menu?
18:13 Calinou yes
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18:35 Calinou is - allowed in subgame names?
18:35 Calinou (folder)
18:36 Calinou it works, yes
18:38 Calinou I plan to close all my minetest_game pull requests in order to maintain a fork of minetest_game
18:38 Calinou are you OK with it?
18:38 Calinou https://github.com/minetest/​minetest_game/pulls/Calinou
18:38 Calinou none of those PRs seem to be really popular
18:38 Calinou (the opened ones)
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19:00 Calinou I found a way to keep those PRs
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19:12 RealBadAngel est31, i believe i dont have any cr-lf here
19:12 RealBadAngel when i let my editor show whitespaces and eols, i can see only LF
19:13 est31 ok
19:13 rubenwardy how can I make a server in a keep-alive loop automatically use gdb and print debug stacks on a problem?
19:13 rubenwardy ie segfault
19:13 RealBadAngel maybe its something with my github client
19:13 est31 VanessaE, ^
19:14 rubenwardy debug stacks = trace backs
19:14 rubenwardy my server crashed twice today, both due to segfaults
19:14 est31 VanessaE publishes her stacks somewhere
19:14 est31 lemme see where
19:15 est31 http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vane​ssa/hobbies/minetest/Server-scripts/
19:15 est31 then look at e.g. minetestserver-vanilla.sh
19:16 sfan5 that doesn't use gdb though
19:17 rubenwardy that's actually the script I'm using right now
19:18 est31 hrmm
19:19 RealBadAngel est31, so about commits (mine and your) shall i push mine inactive first?
19:19 est31 yes
19:19 est31 ok rubenwardy
19:19 est31 before the /bin/minetestserver line
19:19 est31 insert gdb -batch -x /home/minetest/Scripts/gdbopts --args \
19:20 RealBadAngel ok, will do that in the morning, now im too tired and i have to rebase it thx to paramat's changes to minimal
19:20 est31 then make /home/minetest/Scripts/gdbopts be
19:20 est31 run\nthread apply all bt full\nquit
19:21 est31 ofc with \n expanded to newline
19:23 RealBadAngel est31, also, after thinkin about #2910 its not worth sacrificing leftover bits for such marginal change
19:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2910 -- Treegen: Add enable_unique_ids option by est31
19:24 RealBadAngel est31, you know what we could have with just one bit of param2? tiles being switcheable from regular to special_tiles
19:24 est31 perhaps we can remove it again if we actually use it?
19:24 RealBadAngel and thats way more useable
19:24 est31 RealBadAngel, we dont sacrifice anything here. we only write it if the nodedef's paramtypes allow it
19:24 RealBadAngel so for example active/non actice defs could become just one
19:29 est31 I dont see much merit there
19:30 RealBadAngel i wast thinkin making params2 MSB being able to switch between tile set
19:30 RealBadAngel for all the drawtypes
19:30 est31 whats msb
19:30 RealBadAngel most significant bit
19:31 RealBadAngel there should be a PR with that
19:31 est31 question is however, whats an "active" dirt node?
19:31 RealBadAngel that was meant for two-state nodes
19:31 RealBadAngel furnaces, mesecons and the like
19:31 est31 only very very few nodes can profit from this
19:32 est31 or technic machines in general
19:32 est31 i see
19:32 est31 so they have a custom "activateable" drawtype you mean
19:32 est31 where you supply a second set of tiles?
19:32 RealBadAngel look, you have atm furnace active and furnace inactive
19:32 RealBadAngel and abm to switch them
19:33 RealBadAngel now if you could just toggle the bit
19:33 RealBadAngel there are not many furnaces in the worlds, but mesecon wires?
19:34 est31 ah, ok
19:34 RealBadAngel updating them would be way faster
19:34 est31 meh, no
19:34 est31 you would still have to access the map
19:34 est31 changing byte or two close bytes is as fast as changing one bit
19:35 est31 computers are made that way
19:35 est31 you cant request single bits from the memory
19:35 est31 its always in words
19:35 RealBadAngel still, there are doubled nodedefs
19:36 est31 which drawtypes do you want to change?
19:37 RealBadAngel i wanted that to be general feature for all the drawtypes
19:37 est31 no
19:37 est31 -1
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19:39 est31 yes, we do have many nodes which come in pairs, like dirt with grass, dirt without grass or farmland and farmland dry
19:40 est31 but adding one bit extra for that? the change is too basic imo
19:40 RealBadAngel i dont meant pairs
19:40 RealBadAngel look at the furnace and imagine it being single nodedef
19:41 est31 so you want to add a paramtype then
19:41 est31 paramtype2 to be precise
19:42 RealBadAngel one bit of param2, to switch between 2 sets of defined properties
19:42 est31 or do you want to remove that bit from all future assignments?
19:42 RealBadAngel we do have 2 sets of tiles by now
19:43 RealBadAngel we would need for the change to be complete also lightsource value to be switcheable
19:43 RealBadAngel im not sure
19:43 RealBadAngel we could discuss what drawtypes could use it
19:44 RealBadAngel but imho such change is too general, to limit it
19:44 est31 imho we shouldnt just make it a single bit
19:44 est31 lets take more bits
19:44 est31 and make it properly
19:44 RealBadAngel one bit is exactly the amount needed
19:44 est31 for your usecase yes
19:45 est31 but there are many others
19:45 est31 we had this "metad defined nodedef" thingy
19:45 RealBadAngel thats something similar but not as advanced
19:45 kahrl what is the goal here? there isn't any danger of exhausting node ids any time soon, even dreambuilder is far from it
19:45 est31 my approach to that is that we have a value in param2 or param1, and the mod can provide a function that returns a fake nodedef
19:45 RealBadAngel this method is way faster
19:46 RealBadAngel kahrl, number of defs is not the problem
19:46 RealBadAngel but what it does to the cache? its a serious problem
19:46 est31 which cache
19:46 RealBadAngel mesh cache
19:46 RealBadAngel we do have for example mesecon wires
19:47 RealBadAngel lotsa of them to represent all possible connections
19:47 RealBadAngel many of them
19:47 est31 so add a drawtype for them
19:47 RealBadAngel and doubled by a fact they can be in on or off state
19:48 est31 add a drawtype, then you have precisely two mesecon wire nodes: one active, one not active
19:48 RealBadAngel switching to special_tiles cuts the number by half
19:48 RealBadAngel even then
19:48 RealBadAngel when we would need two? just one will be enough
19:48 RealBadAngel always cut by two
19:52 kahrl perhaps it would help to have a flag in the nodedef that says "this node only uses the first 4 of the 24 possible facedirs"
19:52 kahrl that would cut the mesh cache for those nodes by a factor of 6
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19:52 est31 well it would be an extra paramtype
19:52 est31 paramtype2
19:53 kahrl I wouldn't introduce a new paramtype2 for that
19:53 kahrl it would break too much lua code
19:54 kahrl just add a boolean that says "please only create 4 cached meshes for this guy"
19:54 est31 in which ways would you see breakage?
19:54 kahrl (if a node of that type with an out of range param2 occurs, nothing will break, just mesh creation will be a little slower)
19:55 kahrl every piece of code that works with facedir will have to be updated
19:55 kahrl simple example: screwdriver
19:55 est31 and with that extra flag?
19:55 kahrl see above
19:55 est31 would it have to be updated then?
19:56 kahrl it's just an optimization hint for the mesh creation code
19:56 est31 and if you screwdriver something?
19:57 kahrl mesh creation will be slower
19:58 kahrl (although there have been reports that there wasn't that much speed difference between disabled and enabled mesh cache anyway)
19:58 est31 ^
19:58 est31 partly mine
19:59 * VanessaE peeks in
20:00 est31 from my tests, the mesh cache only has required ram, with not much speedups at all
20:00 VanessaE totally non-scientific tests on my end say the same.
20:00 est31 see #2597 for the discussion
20:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2597 -- Disable mesh cache by default by est31
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20:04 est31 whats the current drawtype of mesecon wires?
20:12 VanessaE nodebox
20:12 VanessaE 6dfacedir
20:12 est31 nodebox too
20:12 est31 who the heck wants to screwdriver mesecon wires
20:12 VanessaE I've done it :)
20:12 VanessaE it can sometimes be useful to move a wire up to the ceiling, for example
20:13 VanessaE rarely anyway
20:14 est31 I could think of an "additive nodebox" drawtype
20:14 est31 or "cablelike"
20:14 est31 there, you specify 7 nodeboxes
20:14 est31 one that's shown always, and 6 others that are shown depending on whether other "cablelikes" are close to the node
20:15 est31 perhaps we should add a "cablelike group" parameter, so that it only connects to nodes in that group
20:15 VanessaE that's what I suggested a while back in fact
20:15 VanessaE RBA suggested the drawtype, I suggested the multi-part idea
20:16 VanessaE however, ultimately it would be better to just specify a cable/wire cross-section, and a flag that says if it's in the middle of the node (like a technic cable) or hugging the bottom/sides (like mesecons)
20:17 VanessaE then let the engine build a suitable mesh
20:17 VanessaE texture it like you'd texture a nodebox
20:17 est31 well its like the torchlike discussion i guess
20:17 est31 and blockmens pr
20:17 VanessaE true
20:18 VanessaE however his PR was initially intended to redefine a drawtype, not add a new one
20:19 est31 well i think its better to be abled to manually specify it
20:23 VanessaE maybe
20:23 VanessaE but there would need to be *seven* meshes
20:24 est31 well the engine still has to create the meshes
20:24 est31 but we dont have to cache them
20:24 VanessaE oh ok.  I was thinking from the standpoint of one each for the 6 directions, and the 7th would be for that little bump in the middle for the three- and four-way connections
20:24 est31 also, we can create the meshes from the resulting nodebox on the fly
20:24 est31 this is inside the implementor's freedom i guess
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20:31 est31 the addition of a "special" bit is bad imo
20:33 VanessaE well what I said mesh in this context, I mean a model, as in a mesh node.
20:33 VanessaE but it could just as well be nodeboxes
20:33 VanessaE so long as the engine knows what to do with them
20:39 est31 what RealBadAngel proposes is entirely novel, never done by minetest since param1 and 2 exist
20:40 est31 he wants to hardcode the usage of a bit of the nodedef regardless of the paramtype and drawtype and whatsoever
20:40 est31 thats extremely bad
20:40 VanessaE yeah I know
20:40 est31 for example, i have a node in mind, to solve the "homedecor sofa" problem
20:40 VanessaE I don't like it either because you would need to be able to switch in an entirely different node def
20:41 VanessaE not just the textures and/or lighting
20:41 est31 for that node, I would define new paramtypes and paramtype2
20:42 est31 i want to store the directional information where the "original" node was in those data
20:45 VanessaE est31: btw, you have messages waiting in shadowbot on #trepca.
20:47 est31 VanessaE, doesnt work
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21:02 est31 Calinou, nobody stops you from forking mtgame
21:02 est31 instead i think new subgames are good
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