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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-07-12

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 hmmmm we need to be more selective about who gets to become a core developer
00:01 hmmmm sometester1231 is stuck in a state where he can't see the other players and vice versa
00:01 VanessaE you may as well sign off of that instance, it will never "recover"
00:02 hmmmm i wonder if SET_PROPERTIES is an unreliable or reliable AOM
00:02 hmmmm in any case I have not seen one messed up player texture once
00:03 hmmmm i wonder if it could be a result of my latest patch.. heh..
00:03 VanessaE not likely
00:03 VanessaE this has been ongoing for about a year
00:04 VanessaE OH that?
00:04 VanessaE I haven't deployed it yet
00:04 hmmmm no, it's a client-side only thing
00:04 hmmmm hm also gets stuck in Media... when connecting
00:06 VanessaE that one's rare.
00:07 hmmmm it happened 3 times for me so far
00:07 VanessaE I forget, does the player still emerge while media is loading?
00:07 hmmmm no idea
00:07 VanessaE huh.  well not so rare then :)
00:10 * VanessaE hands you some hair restorer and nerve pills
00:12 hmmmm top lel
00:12 hmmmm i added a printf in the part where i break if there's an error reading the entity ID
00:12 hmmmm the console floods full of them
00:14 VanessaE there's some evidence that this happened with ShadowNinja's SAO rewrite last year
00:14 VanessaE but no one's ever been able to really dig in and look
00:14 hmmmm sware to god.
00:15 hmmmm i am not going to let anybody do a rewrite like that unless there are unit tests
00:15 hmmmm if there aren't unit tests, it's simply not getting in no matter how much approval there is
00:24 sofar start with code coverage?
00:34 wischi2 left #minetest-dev
00:38 paramat left #minetest-dev
00:39 hmmmm vanessae:  i dunno what to tell you, i have not replicated the problem i'm looking for once
00:40 VanessaE huh.  must be a "good day" then for that glitch :)
00:40 VanessaE anyway you saw the other issues so it's a wash :)
00:41 hmmmm just to make sure, this is on the creative server, right?
00:41 VanessaE yep
00:41 VanessaE that's where the problems are the worst
00:44 VanessaE meanwhile, the screenful-of-serialization-errors happens on the Survival server most commonly, for some reason.
00:58 AndroUser joined #minetest-dev
01:13 hmmmm the screenful of serialization error is the server's fault
01:13 hmmmm you would have to be the one to debug that problem
01:20 sofar I just enabled code coverage in the git tree... should be interesting
01:20 hmmmm what tool is that?
01:21 sofar well I'll try to make lcov output
01:22 zat joined #minetest-dev
01:23 sofar looks like it worked ok, making the report now
01:23 sofar I'll upload it somewhere so folks can see how it looks
01:25 hmmmm sure
01:30 sofar ugh should have tarred it before scping it out
01:32 sofar http://foo-projects.org/~sofar/minetest_coverage/
01:32 Player_2 joined #minetest-dev
01:32 sofar I only ran it as a client against a remote server
01:32 sofar so it will obviously only show coverage on those parts
01:33 hmmmm SHIT
01:33 hmmmm I just got a bad serialization error and so I press ctrl+C to stop getting any more log messages
01:33 hmmmm it closed out the terminal
01:33 hmmmm :/
01:37 sofar I haven't looked, but is there testing code in the minetest git tree?
01:37 hmmmm yes, under src/unittests
01:37 sofar how do I call that?
01:38 sofar I can see it in the lcov output... lol
01:45 sofar ../bin/minetest --run-unittests
01:46 hmmmm lots of serialization errors @ (-160, 16, -467) on VE S
01:48 sofar cool, now I have coverage over the unittests too
01:50 hmmmm VanessaE:  requesting your assistance
01:50 VanessaE what's up?
01:51 hmmmm could you look in your survival server logs and try to correlate any of these times
01:51 VanessaE sure, on e moment.
01:51 hmmmm no rush
01:51 hmmmm if this is a bad time for you that's fine
01:52 VanessaE ok, log open..
01:52 VanessaE 2015-07-12 03:41:55: ERROR[ServerThread]: ServerEnv: Trying to store id=22679 st
01:52 VanessaE atically but block (-13,0,-28) already contains 500 objects. Forcing delete.
01:52 VanessaE shittons of those
01:52 hmmmm http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/11864536/
01:53 VanessaE 2015-07-12 03:52:58: ERROR[ServerThread]: Server::ProcessData(): Canceling: No player for peer_id=367 disconnecting peer!
01:53 VanessaE shittons of the "forcing delete" just before that
01:53 hmmmm hmm
01:53 hmmmm well
01:54 hmmmm are those timestamps UTC or something?
01:54 VanessaE nothing else in the logs that's related.  times are CET
01:54 VanessaE (I think that's UTC+1)
01:54 hmmmm alright
01:54 hmmmm so -5
01:54 VanessaE yeah
01:55 hmmmm weird
01:55 VanessaE there does appear to be some tenuous connection between your errors and what's showing up in my logs, as far as times are concerned
01:55 hmmmm 3:52:58 is +1 hour ahead of CET
01:55 hmmmm are you sure it's CET?
01:56 VanessaE positive. it's in the Frankfurt, Germany datacenter
01:56 VanessaE root@daconcepts /home/minetest/minetest_core # date
01:56 VanessaE Sun Jul 12 03:55:56 CEST 2015
01:56 hmmmm ahh
01:56 hmmmm so +6
01:56 hmmmm is there anything around 03:51:06?
01:57 hmmmm give me the chunk of log from 03:47:00 to 03:52:00
01:57 VanessaE sure.
01:57 VanessaE moment
02:00 VanessaE http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/11864562/
02:00 VanessaE had to download the log first.
02:00 hmmmm ????
02:00 VanessaE G*d damn it
02:00 VanessaE I grabbed the wrong part
02:00 hmmmm :/
02:01 VanessaE http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/11864568/
02:01 VanessaE sorry about that :P
02:01 hmmmm it's ok
02:02 VanessaE gave you a little extra there for context
02:02 hmmmm alrighty
02:02 hmmmm so it's safe to say there's nothing correlated with this in the logs
02:03 hmmmm there is some active object sending nonsense messages to my client
02:06 VanessaE dollars to donuts, it's the pipeworks' tubed objects or signs_lib text entities trigering this issue
02:07 hmmmm damn
02:07 hmmmm anyway
02:07 VanessaE +g
02:07 hmmmm once you start getting a serialization error, don't move anywhere
02:07 hmmmm because once you move it stops
02:07 VanessaE ooohhhh
02:07 VanessaE but...hm
02:08 hmmmm alas this is useless without server-side debugging
02:08 hmmmm :\
02:08 VanessaE what do you need me to do?
02:08 hmmmm you're probably going to hate this
02:08 VanessaE "run it under gdb"
02:08 hmmmm not quite
02:09 hmmmm print out all of the active object messages ^g^
02:09 VanessaE wat
02:09 hmmmm compare each active object message you're sending me
02:09 hmmmm if i don't see any screwed up corrupted messages there, we know the problem is in data transmission or corruption
02:10 hmmmm if we do see a screwed up corrupted message, then we look further down the pipeline at which object is producing the screwed up message
02:10 * VanessaE dies
02:10 hmmmm it's going to be awful spammy, however
02:19 hmmmm alright VanessaE
02:19 hmmmm you around?
02:19 VanessaE yeah
02:19 VanessaE just helping someone.
02:19 hmmmm alright
02:19 hmmmm first you need to have my latest patch applied
02:19 hmmmm https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit​/473af3f6d58dfebb05e4ca221291d441607f6583
02:20 VanessaE yep, that one's already staged
02:20 VanessaE not yet deployed
02:20 hmmmm alright now apply this http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/11864636/
02:21 hmmmm and then restart VanessaE survival :)
02:21 VanessaE that patch doesn't apply
02:21 hmmmm :(
02:21 hmmmm try applying it manually
02:22 VanessaE willdo
02:23 hmmmm wait
02:23 * VanessaE waits
02:26 hmmmm okay
02:26 hmmmm manually apply this one: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/11864653/
02:27 VanessaE ok.
02:27 hmmmm no wait
02:27 chchjesus joined #minetest-dev
02:27 * VanessaE waits some more :)
02:27 hmmmm make bool print_aoms = (client->getName() == "singleplayer"); //"sometester1231");
02:27 hmmmm into this
02:27 hmmmm bool print_aoms = (client->getName() == "sometester1231");
02:27 VanessaE got it.
02:29 VanessaE ok, applied.
02:29 hmmmm okay
02:29 hmmmm sorry you had to kick everyone off heh
02:29 VanessaE not yet I didn't :)
02:30 VanessaE compiling it now
02:30 VanessaE fek
02:30 VanessaE http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/11864672/
02:31 hmmmm you didn't apply it right, did you
02:31 hmmmm lol
02:31 VanessaE probably not :P
02:31 hmmmm let's see
02:32 VanessaE hm, nope I applied it right
02:33 hmmmm you sure
02:33 VanessaE hm, extra closing brace.
02:34 VanessaE lemme just reset to clean state and try again
02:37 VanessaE there we go
02:37 VanessaE there musta been some leftover cruft from the failed `patch` try.
02:37 VanessaE ok, it's built.
02:37 hmmmm oh yeah you need to git whatever --abort if there's an error in merging
02:38 hmmmm or else that happens
02:38 VanessaE right
02:38 VanessaE forgot that step
02:38 VanessaE anyway it's deployed.
02:39 VanessaE and I'm tail'ing the log.
02:39 hmmmm prepare to get your log spammed
02:39 VanessaE go for it
02:39 VanessaE it's stored in /run/shm anyway :)
02:39 hmmmm pepper your angus
02:40 VanessaE holy fuckballs
02:40 VanessaE SPPPPPAAAAAMMMMMm
02:40 hmmmm and now
02:40 hmmmm i just walk around until i get that error
02:41 hmmmm OKAY NOW
02:42 hmmmm STOP
02:42 hmmmm CTRL+C
02:42 hmmmm LOGS
02:42 VanessaE stopped.
02:42 hmmmm ALRIGHTY
02:42 hmmmm AT PRECISELY 22:41:53
02:42 hmmmm whoops forgot to uncaps
02:43 hmmmm give me some context around the time 04:41:53 in the logs
02:43 VanessaE your clock is off a little, the last entry is 04:40:44
02:43 VanessaE gimme a hint what I should search for? :)
02:43 hmmmm I don't know
02:43 hmmmm that's the thing
02:43 VanessaE ok I'll just skin
02:43 VanessaE skim*
02:43 hmmmm search around when i yelled "okay now"
02:44 hmmmm and right now too
02:44 hmmmm 22:44:05
02:44 hmmmm I just got another one that's a malformed message but not one of those huge ass ones that cover the screen
02:45 VanessaE searching..
02:48 VanessaE neither the word "now" nor "NOW" appears in the log for this run
02:48 hmmmm no i mean when i said "okay now" on irc
02:48 VanessaE oh derp
02:48 VanessaE moment...
02:49 hmmmm hmmm
02:49 hmmmm maybe it would be easier if you gzipped it up and sent it this way
02:50 VanessaE Might have to, it's so big even 'less' is having trouble searching it
02:52 VanessaE EEK
02:53 hmmmm i just got another one
02:53 hmmmm shoot
02:53 hmmmm i'm getting lots of them
02:53 hmmmm 22:53:05
02:54 VanessaE I gotta shut survival down, it's totally filling /run/shm
02:54 VanessaE and back-out that change I mean
02:54 hmmmm hold on i can do better
02:55 VanessaE well if you want I can direct the log to disk instead
02:56 VanessaE looks like it crashed anyway :P
02:56 hmmmm alrighty
02:57 hmmmm change "if (print_aoms) {" to this
02:57 hmmmm "if (print_aoms && aom.datastring.size() > 0x70) {"
02:57 hmmmm this will filter out all but the biggest
02:59 VanessaE ok
02:59 VanessaE building.
02:59 VanessaE still want the big log?
03:00 hmmmm yaeh sure
03:00 hmmmm do this first though
03:00 VanessaE server's up.
03:00 hmmmm logging on
03:01 hmmmm timing out
03:01 VanessaE nothing in the log for that.
03:01 hmmmm ?
03:01 hmmmm that i timed out?
03:01 VanessaE it didn't react to you signing on
03:02 hmmmm because i didn't sign on it keeps timing out
03:02 VanessaE oh ok
03:02 hmmmm you are doing this on 30001 right?  your survival server?
03:02 VanessaE hang on.
03:02 VanessaE yes.
03:02 VanessaE huh.  it didn't start.
03:02 * VanessaE tries again.
03:02 hmmmm ahh
03:03 VanessaE there it goes.
03:04 hmmmm alright
03:04 VanessaE (permission issue for the log file)
03:04 hmmmm here we go
03:04 hmmmm watch the log file
03:04 VanessaE tailing it.
03:04 hmmmm this'll filter out everything but the biggest messages
03:04 VanessaE yeah that's a bit better
03:05 hmmmm K
03:05 hmmmm right now
03:05 hmmmm did you see anything?
03:05 VanessaE ok, killed the tail
03:05 * VanessaE looks
03:06 VanessaE I better send you the log.
03:06 hmmmm ooh okay
03:06 hmmmm what does that mean
03:06 VanessaE it means I don't know wtf I'm looking at :)
03:07 VanessaE http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/​hobbies/minetest/moredebug-survival.txt
03:07 hmmmm blerk
03:07 hmmmm it just happened again fyi'
03:07 hmmmm just like 10 seconds ago
03:08 VanessaE reload the file at that link, I just refreshed it.
03:09 VanessaE brb
03:10 hmmmm do you have the smaller logfile too?
03:10 hmmmm from the second run
03:14 VanessaE that link IS the smaller one
03:14 VanessaE I'm still waiting for the big one to make its way through bzip2
03:14 hmmmm waha no way
03:15 VanessaE way. :)
03:15 VanessaE that btw is console-output-capture (which is why it's "more" debug)
03:16 VanessaE 2015-07-12 05:16:45: ERROR[ServerThread]: ServerEnvironment::deactivateFarObjects(): id=13191 m_static_exists=true but static data doesn't actually exist in (515,0,-272)
03:16 VanessaE wat
03:17 VanessaE wwk
03:17 VanessaE eek
03:17 VanessaE 2015-07-12 05:16:51: ACTION[ServerThread]: Bluebird places node technic:switching_station at (8046,17,-4409)
03:17 VanessaE 05:16:51: WARNING: Assignment to undeclared global "count" inside a function at ...inetest/games/dreambuilder_ga​me/mods/currency/income.lua:26.
03:17 VanessaE [Currency] added basic income for Bluebird to inventory
03:17 VanessaE 2015-07-12 05:17:17: ERROR[ServerThread]: ServerEnv: Trying to store id=10551 statically but block (-12,0,-29) already contains 500 objects. Forcing delete.
03:17 VanessaE [last message repeated a fuckload of times[
03:17 VanessaE 2015-07-12 05:17:17: ERROR[ServerThread]: ServerEnv: Trying to store id=10833 statically but block (-12,0,-29) already contains 500 objects. Forcing delete.
03:17 VanessaE 2015-07-12 05:17:17: ERROR[ServerThread]: Server::ProcessData(): Canceling: No player for peer_id=8 disconnecting peer!
03:18 hmmmm :\
03:20 VanessaE don't you just LOOOOVE these kinds of issues? :)
03:20 hmmmm not at the moment
03:22 VanessaE oh fuck me
03:22 VanessaE I overwrote the big log :(
03:23 hmmmm hey vanessae
03:23 VanessaE hm?
03:23 hmmmm nevermind that at the moment
03:23 VanessaE ok
03:23 hmmmm what item has this string as a texture: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/11864827/
03:24 VanessaE that would be a signs_lib text entity
03:24 hmmmm welp
03:25 hmmmm in any case I think I have an understanding of why minetest servers perform so poorly
03:26 hmmmm AOM is far, far, far, too chatty
03:27 hmmmm your server is literally maxing my pipe so that it can tell me about all the lua entities that moved within the past second
03:28 VanessaE weird thing is, those sign entities don't move, or even refresh (and the only thing that CAN refresh them is an ABM that runs once per 15 second interval, and only refreshes if the entity is missing)
03:28 VanessaE pretty bad in any case
03:31 hmmmm alright
03:32 hmmmm - i think signs_lib is indirectly responsible for the serialization error we see
03:32 hmmmm - i think the chattiness of AOMs is the primary reason why minetest's network performance is sluggish
03:33 hmmmm #1 looks like it's probably caused by a lower-level problem with the network, and #2 is by design
03:33 hmmmm the object message design worked fine, but now we have servers where a single client could be listening to serveral tens of thousands of objects
03:33 hmmmm it simply doesn't scale
03:35 hmmmm also, what is going on around (-200.5,11,-459) on your server, out of morbid curiosity?
03:35 VanessaE those are mapblock coords?
03:35 hmmmm some mod must be going crazy because there are several tens of thousands of objects centered around that area
03:35 hmmmm no, absolute map coordinates
03:36 VanessaE lemme go check
03:39 VanessaE bah, now I keep timing out trying to connect.
03:40 hmmmm in any case
03:41 hmmmm the mod that's making thousands of objects at those coordinates is the one that's responsible for the statically blah blah blah forcing delete error
03:41 hmmmm wow a single mod that has a bug in it can really wreak havoc..
03:44 VanessaE finally
03:44 VanessaE now it's loading.
03:45 VanessaE looks like just some low-end sorting machine.
03:45 hmmmm low-end sorting machine?!?
03:45 VanessaE mmhmm
03:46 hmmmm what is a sorting machine
03:46 VanessaE and here come the serializatn errors
03:46 hmmmm is it supposed to sort objects?
03:46 hmmmm vanessae...
03:46 hmmmm what i want you to do right now
03:46 hmmmm is to destroy the sorting machine
03:46 hmmmm you must destroy the sorting machine!
03:46 hmmmm it's the only way... to stop the suffering
03:46 VanessaE beats the fuck out of me but my FPS is so ridiculously slow I can't do anything useful
03:46 VanessaE as in dropped to less than 1
03:47 hmmmm DEEEEEESTROYYYYYY THE SORTTING MACHHHINEEEE
03:47 * hmmmm adds movie effects
03:50 VanessaE I'm trying to turn it off now
03:50 VanessaE forget it
03:50 VanessaE I have no control
03:50 VanessaE these serialization errors spamming my client are making it impossible to do anything
03:51 VanessaE they totally kill my fpds
03:51 VanessaE fps*
03:51 asl97 lol, how could it get so bad though
03:51 hmmmm we're definitely going to need to add in safeguards to prevent some mod doing something like this again
03:52 hmmmm this is nasty
03:53 VanessaE there was a fuckton of pumice floating around through some tubes
03:53 VanessaE once I broke the tubes to let them out, they piled up and my FPS came back to normal
03:54 VanessaE so it's the because they stopped *moving*
03:54 asl97 oh lol, a pumice generator, it must have run out of storage
03:54 VanessaE so you're right, AOM is way too chatty
03:54 hmmmm well it's *okay* for what it's supposed to do, to think about it
03:54 hmmmm it's just that it simply does not scale
03:54 hmmmm minetest was not designed for such high volume of objects in mind
03:55 VanessaE in this case about 1300 pieces of pumice and 2300 pieces of basalt
03:55 hmmmm yeah
03:55 VanessaE but why didn't the engine delete them from the pipes?
03:55 hmmmm basically, an Object is a rather heavyweight entity
03:55 VanessaE my per-block limit is only 500
03:55 VanessaE and these appear to have been individual entities, not stacks
03:55 hmmmm I think what we need to do is enforce a per-mod limit on objects
03:56 hmmmm and introduce a much lighter version that doesn't get statically stored and is more or less for display only
03:57 VanessaE a per-mod limit would basically kill the utility of pipeworks though
04:01 hmmmm i think no matter how we do it there'd be problems with moving and tracking several thousands of objects on the screen
04:01 hmmmm hmm
04:02 asl97 client side script should be able to fix it
04:02 VanessaE might help./
04:02 hmmmm yeah definitely
04:08 VanessaE all of this aside, it still doesn't explain why the movement of those entites killed FPS, but having them just sitting in one place spinning around doesn't
04:09 asl97 does the entites change direction?  if it does, it could explain it
04:09 VanessaE yes
04:10 VanessaE they were going around and around in a small loop inside the machine, maybe 10-15 meter total distance around the loop, and several turns in the loop
04:11 VanessaE (well two loops of half that size, rather)
04:33 VanessaE meanwhile, I found another huge machine near that server's spawn that was also generating a large number of objedcts, BUT it wasn't going overboard (in fact it seemed to be running just fine, save for causing FPS sags due to periodic mesh regen
04:33 VanessaE )
04:37 * VanessaE wonders what hmmmm is thinking now.
04:37 hmmmm i'm pondering.
04:38 VanessaE well don't try to take over the world.
04:38 VanessaE :)
04:38 hmmmm so you're pondering what i'm pondering
04:38 VanessaE I don't think so, but even so, where would you get a gallon bucket of sour cream at this time of night?
04:38 VanessaE :D
04:40 hmmmm zoink.
04:40 VanessaE now you're mixing cartoons :P
04:41 hmmmm zoink is a verifiable pinky quote
04:41 VanessaE huh.  been too long.
04:41 hmmmm he says zoink, narf, gat, zounds, troz, fjor, poit, zort
04:41 hmmmm iirc
04:41 VanessaE most of those I remember
04:42 VanessaE I'm ruined :P
04:43 hmmmm can't help but wonder if the FPS didn't sag when the objects were holding still because they were mostly occluding eachother
04:43 hmmmm and then when they were moving, they weren't, causing most of them to get rendered
04:43 VanessaE hm
04:43 hmmmm that's my only guess. i have no idea
04:45 VanessaE the engine automatically snaps dropped entities together to form stacks.  I wonder if that shouldn't be applied to ALL entities?
04:45 VanessaE (or maybe item_tweaks is responsible for that)
04:46 hmmmm are they really distinct entities that are 'attached' to eachother?
04:46 VanessaE they're distinct
04:46 hmmmm that sounds inefficient..
04:46 VanessaE when I freed them from the tubes, they started piling into my inventory one at a time
04:46 hmmmm you'd think it'd replace it with one entity that has a count
04:46 hmmmm maybe it should
04:47 VanessaE visibly, there were only about a dozen or so "globs" at the time, all of which looked like single entities
04:47 hmmmm so yeah
04:47 hmmmm globbing them together would definitely work
04:48 hmmmm if the modmaker wants the entites to appear in bulk, perhaps irrlicht particles could be used
04:48 VanessaE some pipeworks machines will have to be adapted accordingly, but oh well
04:48 VanessaE actually, strike that
04:48 VanessaE hm
04:48 VanessaE no, I guess it has to be done on the server.
04:49 VanessaE I was thinking, what if the client globs them together?  but that wouldn't do anything about the net bandwidth you mentioned
04:50 VanessaE unless the client tells the server "hey, I've joined entities A B and C together, so don't send me updates for B and C"
04:50 VanessaE something like how attached entities are supposed to work?
04:51 hmmmm why would that be a client thing
04:51 hmmmm the server should be the one handling globbing
04:51 VanessaE just thinking out loud
04:51 hmmmm the server is in a much better position for that
04:51 hmmmm why do you want to do this on the client?
04:51 hmmmm latency?
04:52 VanessaE true, I agree.  I was just thinking from the standpoint of transparency for mods - if the items get too far apart, then the client can split them again
04:52 VanessaE know what I mean?
04:52 VanessaE but you're right, the server is the better place for that
04:52 hmmmm ahhh
04:52 hmmmm i see what you mean
04:53 hmmmm it'd save on rendering power but it certainly wouldn't save on bandwith
04:54 VanessaE exactly
04:54 hmmmm we could have a translation compatibility layer for mods
04:55 hmmmm the server clumps them together, but if a mod doesn't support object groups, then it could reserve all the object ids it originally reclaimed
04:55 hmmmm and then if the mod deletes an object that has an id within that group, the group simply decrements the object count by 1
04:56 VanessaE right
04:56 hmmmm if the mod makes one of the objects in the group have a different position or velocity or whatever, it'd split that individual object out
04:56 hmmmm so we can easily lie to the mods for reverse compatibility
04:56 VanessaE that's exactly what I was thinking
04:56 hmmmm and the server would handle the clumping
04:57 VanessaE there would need to be a flag or variable or something that a mod could set to prevent any such clumping (MOBs for example)
04:57 hmmmm yeah
04:58 hmmmm lol
04:58 hmmmm VanessaE
04:58 hmmmm if you had compressed that log file you uploaded it'd be no more than ~200 MB
04:58 VanessaE though I guess that wouldn't really be needed in practice, as MOBs are quire unpredictable anyway; if position and velocity are enough to cause clumping, MOBs probably would not get hit anyway
04:58 hmmmm but noooo you didn't and now it's 2.1 GB
04:58 VanessaE heh
04:58 VanessaE sorry :)
04:59 VanessaE I got all ferchated earlier dealing with that brain-o where I overwrote the really spammy version :P
05:00 hmmmm your maps are huge too
05:00 VanessaE mmhmm
05:00 VanessaE and those ARE compressed :P
05:00 hmmmm VanessaE - "Errything I do, I do it big."
05:00 VanessaE lol
05:01 hmmmm big textures too
05:01 VanessaE remember when I said I needed to write that one "strip it down" tool?  well I suppose it would also serve to reduce map sizes :)
05:01 deltib joined #minetest-dev
05:01 VanessaE big textures?  well HDX yeah, but the servers mostly run 16px stuff
05:01 hmmmm yeah I bet a large part of your map is actually object storage
05:01 hmmmm the object system was REALLY not intended for this scale
05:02 hmmmm mod makers just keep pushing it
05:02 hmmmm grr
05:02 VanessaE "I don't always write mods,"  "but when I do, I go for 100x overkill."
05:03 hmmmm ok there dos equis  guy
05:03 VanessaE (actually in this case, nore did.  I only coded some of the most basic node defs)
05:16 VanessaE meanwhile, I guess your 473a...6583 patch at least doesn't seem to break anything
05:16 VanessaE of course I haven't run it without the print_aoms tweaks, but I don't see that causing any regression from your code
05:17 hmmmm it only modifies the client
05:17 VanessaE oh hell
05:17 VanessaE learn2read :P
05:18 * VanessaE applies it to her client.
05:20 VanessaE it is safe to back-out those print-aoms tweaks?
05:20 VanessaE on the server I mean
05:20 VanessaE on fuck
05:20 VanessaE oh fuck, you already said that's client-side.
05:20 VanessaE G*d I am dense.
05:20 hmmmm no, print aoms is not
05:20 hmmmm that is server only
05:21 VanessaE right
05:21 hmmmm the point of what i did was to compare server vs client aoms
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05:38 hmmmm ANYWAY
05:39 hmmmm the conclusion from my analysis is that the serialization error is exacerbated by signs_lib's gigantic ObjectProperties
05:39 hmmmm but the root cause lies somewhere in the serialization layer
05:40 hmmmm as for the actual 'bug' presented in the github issue where overly verbose errors are being displayed to the client: that requires no figuring-stuff-out, just elbow grease
05:50 VanessaE well I'm at least glad my mods aren't the root cause :)
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06:37 hmmmm heh
06:38 hmmmm i just tried compressing the log you gave me.  2.4GB down to 18.3MB with the standard xz options.
06:40 VanessaE heh.  sure, here's some salt, go ahead and rub it in :)
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07:19 autodidact do you guys contribute to the main source or is this a plugins channel
07:34 nore autodidact: this is the channel for engine development
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08:24 celeron55 last night's discussion is hilarius, especially out of context 8)
08:24 celeron55 do you guys know that the object count limit does not apply to a live instance?
08:24 celeron55 it only applies to the amount of statically saved objects
08:25 celeron55 unless somebody added a limit to the active objects when i haven't been looking
08:25 VanessaE wat
08:25 celeron55 you could just extend the limit or a higher limit to active objects too and be done with this problem mostly
08:26 celeron55 or maybe i'm wrong
08:26 VanessaE huh.  well question then is, are pipeworks' tubed items being store statically?  *pokes nore*
08:26 VanessaE pretty sure signs_lib is
08:26 celeron55 of course they are, but it's a parallel system
08:27 celeron55 or i mean, there's the saved state inside the mapblock and the live state inside the environment
08:27 asl97 i thought signs_lib object is generated on-the-fly whenever the server restart or the object is clear
08:27 celeron55 i think i only added a limit to the static stuff that goes into mapblocks
08:28 VanessaE asl97: well sorta.  the texture is rebuilt when the entity is reloaded.
08:28 VanessaE celeron55: what's the maximum reasonable number that a mapblock should be able to hold then?
08:28 asl97 and that it wasn't store in the mapblock
08:28 VanessaE assuming free disk space is not a concern
08:29 celeron55 dunno; it depends on the situation i guess
08:30 celeron55 if you max out every mapblock, you probably want less than 50 in them, but if you max out only one of them in the whole world, i guess something like 5000 wouldn't hurt much
08:30 VanessaE 500 is the limit I currently have set in my worlds
08:31 celeron55 or i mean, probably even less than 50; the system isn't designed to cope with that many objects
08:34 VanessaE can anything be done to fix that?
08:34 celeron55 http://fpaste.org/243081/36690082/
08:34 celeron55 try something like this
08:34 VanessaE (aside from the entity-grouping idea hmmmm and I discussed)
08:35 celeron55 if this makes your server playable, then the issue is too many ActiveObjects (which are the live instances of objects, as opposed to statically stored ones)
08:35 celeron55 you should probably add a log message in there so you know if it's doing something
08:36 celeron55 hmm actually, that would be a global limit
08:36 celeron55 maybe make it 5000 for now or something
08:36 VanessaE even 5000 would be too low on an active server.
08:36 VanessaE no matter, I get what you're saying.
08:37 celeron55 in any case you need to test this
08:37 VanessaE I'll do that tomorrow then
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08:38 celeron55 the limit is currently something like 65535 because that's the data type for object ids
08:40 celeron55 and there is an error message for that situation, which is "ServerEnvironment::addActiveObjectRaw(): no free ids available"
08:40 VanessaE never seen that message happen before.
08:40 celeron55 maybe it just grinds to a half before that happens? dunno 8)
08:40 celeron55 halt*
08:40 VanessaE heh
08:41 VanessaE you shoulda seen "grind to a halt" earlier though
08:41 VanessaE when I found that machine (hmmmm found the coords in the logs), my fps dropped to less than 1 until I broke a tube and made everything just fall to the ground.
08:41 VanessaE then suddenly, back to normal fps
08:41 VanessaE so the entities, all 3600 of them, were still there, but they weren't moving around anymore
08:42 VanessaE just spinning on the ground
08:42 celeron55 well entities send updates over the network when they move but not if they don't; i guess the message sending is too slow
08:43 celeron55 it's one of the things that has stayed untouched since i originally implemented it in my not-so-performance-aware prototyping fashion
08:44 VanessaE I was thinking, you know how animations "skip frames" when the node bearing the texture is too far away?  how about doing the same with entities when the count gets too high? that is, skip sending updates to clients
08:44 celeron55 this doesn't mean that it is slow but it means it can be slow
08:45 VanessaE (and when they're just too far away)
08:49 nore <VanessaE> huh.  well question then is, are pipeworks' tubed items being store statically?  *pokes nore* <-- no, they are stored by pipeworks and not affected by the static object limit
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08:49 VanessaE well that rules out your theory, celeron55  :D
08:50 RealBadAngel hi
08:50 VanessaE hey RBA
08:51 celeron55 why does it rule out my theory?
08:51 VanessaE celeron55: because it's not bumping up against the static mapblock object limit?
08:51 VanessaE or did I misread?
08:51 celeron55 well for all i have read, those limit bumps could be unrelated
08:53 RealBadAngel i have read the logs before joining, about items. how much takes to store 1 item in db?
08:54 RealBadAngel maybe having them stored per world could be a solution indeed
08:55 celeron55 sigh, that's not the issue
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09:47 nore ~tell paramat sfan5 and I decided that you could be a maintainer of _game if you want
09:47 ShadowBot nore: O.K.
10:01 sfan5 merge of the diamond block texture from #548 incoming (minetest_game)
10:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/548 -- Pathfinding by sapier
10:02 RealBadAngel hehe
10:02 RealBadAngel wonder if that code will find a way to the texture ;)
10:02 sfan5 Receiving objects:  55% (2268/4123), 1.89 MiB | 124.00 KiB/s
10:02 sfan5 zzzZ
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10:08 sfan5 pushed
10:08 RealBadAngel the diamond?
10:09 sfan5 yes
10:10 RealBadAngel sfan5, good. simple leaves and normalmaps?
10:11 sfan5 should game#548 stay open?
10:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/548 -- Improved ores blocks textures by kilbith
10:12 sfan5 RealBadAngel: link to those?
10:12 RealBadAngel a sec
10:13 kilbith sfan5: i can close it if you don't want the new ores
10:13 RealBadAngel github is a bit slow for me today
10:14 RealBadAngel kilbith, i think you should open a new one with WIP mark
10:14 kilbith i'll be afk since monday, no time for updating it
10:14 RealBadAngel just open it right away so we can push there our ideas
10:15 RealBadAngel they have to be changed anyway, we just need a brainstorm place for it
10:15 kilbith i'll just delete the diamondblock in that PR
10:15 RealBadAngel that will do too
10:16 RealBadAngel sfan5, https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/559
10:16 RealBadAngel and https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/558
10:17 kilbith in fact i'll close the PR and open an issue instead (more suitable for collective brainstorming)
10:17 RealBadAngel sfan5, when you merge those i will open a new one with more new maps to be reviewed
10:17 RealBadAngel i do have grass and snow rdy
10:18 RealBadAngel grass is a bit tricky, it needs engine changes
10:18 RealBadAngel because its not seamless (the sides are not)
10:20 sfan5 RealBadAngel: 559 has 2 votes (nore and me), should i merge it?
10:21 RealBadAngel 2 are enough
10:22 RealBadAngel also theres one more from paramat
10:22 RealBadAngel he agreed for those in #dev
10:22 sfan5 the rule to comment on pulls is there for a reason
10:22 sfan5 so that we don't need to search the logs for it
10:23 RealBadAngel yup, but 2 is whats needed to merge pr in question
10:24 RealBadAngel also im a dev too, so its additional vote, dont you think?
10:24 RealBadAngel that gathered makes 4 devs votes
10:24 kilbith being core-dev doesn't mean you're MTG maintainer
10:25 RealBadAngel i know, but the border line in this case (normalmaps and simple leaves) is very thick
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10:26 RealBadAngel for the changes to be complete it requires changes in both repos
10:26 sfan5 game#559 merhed
10:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/559 -- Add some normalmaps with heightmap in alpha channel by RealBadAngel
10:26 sfan5 s/h/g/
10:28 RealBadAngel sfan5, so only simple leaves are left
10:29 sfan5 those need 1 more vote
10:29 RealBadAngel paramat
10:29 RealBadAngel or, nore, wake up :)
10:30 sfan5 I'll be afk now
10:30 nore well, simple leaves look as good as it can be :) (the problem is that the trees always look "empty" when there are transparent pixels with simple leaves...)
10:30 RealBadAngel also, sfan5 what do you think if we go further with it and supply different textures for non fancy leaves?
10:31 sfan5 if that makes it look better, why not?
10:31 RealBadAngel nore,sfan5 its a half way
10:31 nore so yes, you can merge it :)
10:32 RealBadAngel an attempt to look as good as fancy does and be of the same speed as opaque is
10:32 RealBadAngel something to choose
10:32 RealBadAngel i find it personally good solution, especially in dreambuilder worlds
10:33 RealBadAngel for me its 13-14% fps gain
10:33 RealBadAngel kahrl got over 16%
10:38 RealBadAngel thats pretty huge gain
10:41 RealBadAngel when we are finished with adding specialized normalmaps and textures, relief mapping with simple leaves could become the fastest pick
10:41 RealBadAngel while being the best quality setting still
10:42 RealBadAngel look at terasology for example. picking the same quality level makes it unplayable
10:43 kilbith terasology is a huge gas industry
10:43 RealBadAngel what we do have, i mean relief mapping with default textures is something extraordinary for all the voxel games
10:44 RealBadAngel mc team is trying to follow it, see experimental shaders for it
10:46 RealBadAngel when we are done with all the normalmaps, mt will look as high end HD thingy, out of the box
10:48 RealBadAngel kilbith, i like terasology for one reason, its open source and a different point of view
10:48 RealBadAngel we do have l-system trees thx to Terasology :)
10:55 kilbith and you must have an i7 and two GTX on SLI for playing it comfortably
10:55 kilbith if minetest turns like that, i leave definitely
10:57 kilbith meanwhile... game#565
10:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/565 -- Add mushrooms by kilbith
10:58 VanessaE kilbith: ew.  use the models from plantlife
10:58 kilbith too heavy
10:58 VanessaE plantlike draw type looks like ass with mushrooms.  your textures are nice, though
10:59 kilbith plantlike is KISS, like what MTG is aiming for
10:59 VanessaE plantlife's models are too heavy? O_o
10:59 kilbith yeah, it's mesh and not suitable for the rest of the world
11:00 VanessaE eh.
11:00 VanessaE why have mesh node capability at all if the default game isn't going to exploit it?
11:00 VanessaE (stairs notwithstanding)
11:01 kilbith because the flora is all plantlike already
11:01 kilbith and mesh is less flexible for texture packs and maintainance
11:01 kilbith besides the fact it's visually unsuitable in such cubic game
11:02 VanessaE yeah but the existing flora looks fine as plantlike, it's "thin" anyway
11:02 kilbith c55 prefers the flat plantlike as well
11:02 VanessaE mushrooms aren't "thin", they're round.
11:02 kilbith MC uses only plantlike for the flora
11:02 kilbith so the bloating should go elsewhere :)
11:02 VanessaE meh, who cares about MC
11:02 RealBadAngel kilbith, normalmaps while being way better quality than autogen are actually way faster
11:03 RealBadAngel simply data is preprocessed
11:03 RealBadAngel also, most cheap pentium (i3) and gti 550 here
11:03 RealBadAngel its not quite expensive box
11:04 kilbith it should runs smoothly on 5-8 years old hardware
11:05 kilbith master philosophy of MT
11:05 RealBadAngel without any modern effects, yes
11:06 RealBadAngel but if you want it to shine, forget about yrs old hw
11:07 VanessaE it's okay to target modern hardware, as long as the quality degrades gracefully on older machines.
11:07 RealBadAngel for amd 2-3 yrs old gpu is moved to legacy and is no longer supported even
11:07 kilbith it's okay to target every type of hardware, must be universal
11:07 VanessaE i.e. fewer working shaders on some old trident than you'd get on a modern two-slot-wide GPU, etc.
11:08 RealBadAngel kilbith, for older boxes we will have "lite" shaders
11:08 VanessaE kilbith: that's what I meant by "degrade gracefully"
11:08 RealBadAngel simple and "not to touch" version
11:08 kilbith sure, if you can't affort fancy graphics, a simplistic alternative is offered
11:08 kilbith *afford
11:08 RealBadAngel thx to above we will get two goals
11:09 RealBadAngel compability with older hw
11:09 RealBadAngel and a way to enable most decent fragment shader models
11:09 RealBadAngel version we do support is atm #120, that came with OpenGL v 2.1
11:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/120 -- lua_api.txt is missing important stuff
11:10 RealBadAngel NINE years ago
11:10 RealBadAngel when im lookin at the specs, thats way before dinosaurs were ruling the world
11:12 kilbith you're sure that 120 is related ?
11:13 RealBadAngel no, its a bot
11:13 RealBadAngel i meant glsl version not the pr
11:22 kilbith RBA, btw what about the texture displacement patch ?
11:24 RealBadAngel killbith, working on it
11:24 RealBadAngel its not yet rdy, need a day or two to finish it
11:25 kilbith ok cool
11:29 kilbith note : this should be modified accordingly now that paramat is maintainer :  http://dev.minetest.net/minetest_game_Development
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12:57 crecca there is this line in the CMakeLists.txt file:
12:57 crecca if(EXISTS ${MINETEST_GAME_SOURCE} AND IS_DIRECTORY ${MINETEST_GAME_SOURCE})
12:58 crecca why is there IS_DIRECTORY condition, wouldn't a signle EXISTS suffice?
13:02 crecca oh nvm i get it
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13:21 kilbith odd, fullscreen with F11 works with ubuntu but not on archlinux
13:22 sfan5 fullscreen with f11?
13:23 sfan5 last time i checked irrlicht did not support going to fullscreen without re-creating the context
13:23 kilbith yes, plain fullscreen without the WM
13:23 kilbith it worked fine on ubuntu really
13:25 crecca it doesn't work on debian...
13:25 Amaz Doesn't work on Peppermint. (Based on Ubuntu)
13:25 crecca are you sure it's not a feature of a window manager?
13:26 kilbith likely yes
13:26 kilbith but i use the same on arch linux
13:26 Amaz f11 works in programs other than minetest for me.
13:27 crecca must be the window manager setting then
13:27 crecca settings*
13:28 crecca i just googled that 3d effects enabled make the f11 go fullscreen
13:30 crecca but i find that hard to believe, but most likely a setting somehwere in gconf or smth
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15:45 crecca in the first CMakeLists.txt it says :
15:45 crecca if(NOT CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE)
15:45 crecca # Default to release
15:45 crecca set(CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE Release CACHE STRING "Build type: Debug or Release" FORCE)
15:45 crecca endif()
15:45 crecca and in the second :
15:45 crecca set(CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE "${CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE}" CACHE STRING
15:45 crecca "Choose the type of build. Options are: None Debug SemiDebug RelWithDebInfo MinSizeRel."
15:45 crecca FORCE
15:45 crecca )
15:45 crecca couldn't this be simplified?
15:46 crecca bit confusing to me...
15:52 crecca wouldn't just using only the second version in the first CMakeLists.txt without the FORCE option be effectively the same?
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15:54 rubenwardy http://irc.minetest.ru/minet​est-dev/2015-07-12#i_4319406
15:54 rubenwardy Mushrooms aren't plants :P
16:02 kilbith i think you need to open a dico for "flora"
16:04 rubenwardy flora - flowers
16:05 rubenwardy http://dictionary.cambridge.​org/dictionary/british/flora
16:05 crecca mushrooms are fungi
16:05 crecca no more no less
16:05 kilbith this definition is incomplete then
16:05 rubenwardy http://www.oxforddictionaries​.com/definition/english/flora
16:06 rubenwardy Shall I get out a physical dictionary?
16:06 kilbith wrong, flora implies all the micro-organism and non-vascular flora
16:06 rubenwardy Arguing with the dictionary?
16:06 kilbith besides, this pedantic discussion is unsuited for this channel
16:07 rubenwardy Grass etc are made up of thin stalks and flat leaves, stereotypical mushrooms have mass and are round
16:07 hmmmm definitely not a #dev discussion
16:08 rubenwardy Yeah, definitely not :P
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16:14 paramat oh cool, yes please
16:17 hmmmm heh i have a really simple mapgen change that should improve performance quite a bit
16:17 hmmmm but i can't quite test it on singleplayer with almost no lock contention
16:18 paramat hi sfan5 are you happy with game#550 ? i guess my own +1 counts but i'd like your comments
16:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/550 -- Default: Add savanna nodes, crafting and fuels by paramat
16:18 paramat hmmmmm interesting
16:19 hmmmm when blitting map chunks back to the map, don't wait to acquire a lock
16:19 rubenwardy paramat: http://pasteboard.co/1UgXb5Xn.png :'(
16:19 rubenwardy Did you define inbuilt mapgenerator biomes which assume blocks?
16:20 hmmmm instead simply trylock and then if it fails, add the voxelmanipulator to a queue and then the next time the lock does get acquired, blit all of them back at once and free the vmanips
16:20 rubenwardy wait
16:20 hmmmm rubenwardy, that was @paramat
16:20 hmmmm looks like you have quite a bit of content ignore on that map
16:20 paramat rubenwardy, use latest mtgame? v6 has snow biomes by default now
16:21 rubenwardy You shouldn't assume content
16:21 rubenwardy You break compatibility with other subgames
16:22 paramat mtgame and the engine are developed together, it's unavoidable
16:22 hmmmm i sorta agree with rubenwardy here, paramat
16:23 paramat v6 snow biomes were made default by popular demand, i was actually hesitant about that, we could make them disabled by default?
16:23 hmmmm if snow biomes are enabled but snow nodes and their backups resolve to content ignore, fall back to dirt with grass or something
16:23 hmmmm easy
16:23 paramat ah in the ctor
16:24 paramat yes of course
16:24 rubenwardy Shouldn't minetest_game define the biomes?
16:24 hmmmm yes
16:24 paramat will fix
16:24 hmmmm you see how there's a bunch of if (c_stair_cobble == CONTENT_IGNORE) c_stair_cobble = c_cobble; etc.
16:24 hmmmm add those for snow too
16:24 paramat yeah
16:24 paramat ok thanks i'm learning
16:25 sfan5 paramat: the leaves look interesting, also the PR needs a rebase
16:25 hmmmm dirt_with_snow -> dirt_with_grass, snow -> air, snowblock -> stone, ice -> water_source
16:25 hmmmm rubenwardy, mapgen v6 hasn't been converted to the dynamic biome system yet
16:26 rubenwardy Ah
16:26 paramat ok thanks sfan
16:27 paramat hmmmmm this mapgen speedup is for core or lua mapgen?
16:45 paramat ah i guess lua mapgen, because of locks
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17:11 est31 hmmmm, VanessaE any results from the testing session besides "OMG nobody will touch the code" and "I would have left minetest if I were you"
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17:33 rubenwardy I used to be able to start a singleplayer game using   minetest --worldname world --name singleplayer --go
17:33 rubenwardy but this no longer works
17:33 rubenwardy actually
17:33 rubenwardy 1sec
17:35 Krock --go works fine here
17:35 rubenwardy confirmed
17:35 rubenwardy It says "connecting to server..." and then times out
17:36 rubenwardy Krock, I mean client wise
17:36 rubenwardy --go works fine as a server starter
17:36 rubenwardy Using world specified by --worldname on the command line
17:37 rubenwardy 2015-07-12 18:36:37: ERROR[main]: Connection timed out.
17:37 Krock uh, you're right, I also time out
17:37 rubenwardy This feature was actually added for me about half a year ago, and now it's been removed :(
17:37 rubenwardy updating to latest git, I was a few days old
17:37 Krock It's broken, not removed
17:38 rubenwardy :P
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17:44 est31 can sb bisect?
17:46 rubenwardy how to reset to a commit in the tree
17:46 rubenwardy ?
17:46 est31 git checkout commitname
17:46 rubenwardy ah, thanks
17:46 est31 works for commits and branches
17:48 crecca to continue my thought on CMake configuration...
17:48 crecca if(NOT CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE)
17:48 crecca # Default to release
17:48 crecca set(CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE Release CACHE STRING "Build type: Debug or Release" FORCE)
17:48 crecca endif()
17:48 crecca this condition here is not needed, you can safely remove it and remove the FORCE option and it will work just the same
17:51 crecca separate issue: the docstring and the available set of build types gets nullified by the second CMakeLists.txt in the src/ directory
17:52 crecca gets changed*
17:52 est31 you should perhaps open a pr which clarifies the cmake files
17:52 rubenwardy 91f95fd4df82645e23a9734795d11ec9b8e522f8 doesn't work
17:53 crecca est31: This part is confusing and I'm not sure what the original author intended to achieve exactly
17:55 crecca actually, you're the original author :)
17:55 est31 what
17:55 est31 crecca, where again
17:56 est31 rubenwardy, is that the breaking commit?
17:56 rubenwardy no, that's one that doesn't work
17:56 crecca git blame -L 47,50 CMakeLists.txt says ^cb8978f (est31 2015-07-09 08:23:08 +0200 47) if(NOT CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE)
17:56 rubenwardy I'm going back a few pages to find another, then I'll bisect
17:57 est31 that cant be
17:57 crecca weird
17:57 est31 cb8978f doesnt do anything with the cmakelists.txt
17:58 crecca maybe im using git-blame wrong
17:58 est31 crecca, for me it does 359e575b (Perttu Ahola 2011-01-09 00:49:32 +0200 47) if(NOT CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE)
17:58 est31 crecca, did you do a shallow clone?
17:58 crecca hmm
17:58 crecca yup
17:58 crecca that's it
17:58 est31 then thats your problem
18:00 crecca yea my mistake
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19:19 est31 nore, any time to look at #2898
19:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2898 -- Add AreaStore data structure by est31
19:22 nore est31: in doc/lua_api.txt, line 2602: what is accept_overlap?
19:23 est31 you mean for get_areas_for_area?
19:23 est31 the scan can be in two modes
19:23 est31 if accept_overlap = true, it looks for areas which overlap the current area
19:23 nore I mean: it is not clear how you pass that argument
19:24 est31 ah
19:24 est31 definition copied wrong
19:24 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2898/​files#diff-4fde6f7d68599493c8fe6b5d4a6aa33aR129
19:24 est31 should be this ^
19:25 nore ah, ok
19:27 nore for AST_OVERLAPS_IN_DIMENSION, I would suggest the more efficient and simpler !((amine.d > b->maxedge.d) || (amaxe.d < b->minedge.d))
19:29 est31 ok
19:29 nore (ehm... is it normal that AST_OVERLAPS_IN_DIMENSION returns false if b is contained in amin->amax?)
19:30 nore if it is, don't use my version
19:30 nore but from what I understand, it should return true
19:31 nore (I mean: if amine.d < b->minedge.d < b->maxedge.d < amaxe.d, it returns false right now)
19:31 est31 yea, it doesnt matter
19:32 nore also: is there a particular reason why you use macros and not inline functions?
19:32 est31 because the only place its used, is with || AST_CONTAINS_AREA
19:32 est31 inline functions copy stuff the arguments, no?
19:32 est31 -stuff
19:33 nore I think it is optimized
19:33 nore and you still can pass arguments to those functions by reference (const & arg)
19:34 nore <est31> yea, it doesnt matter <-- it does
19:34 est31 where
19:35 nore if I have aminx < bminx < bmaxx < amaxx and bminy < aminy < amaxy < bmaxy, your code doesn't work
19:35 nore because neither a nor b is contained in the other
19:35 nore but AST_OVERLAPS returns false :/
19:35 est31 ah
19:35 est31 I see
19:36 est31 yea, then your solution has to be used
19:37 nore (this solution is imho the simplest way to check interval intersection)
19:37 nore (but if you find simpler, then I'm interested ^^)
19:37 est31 well it has 2 comparisons, and 2 boolean operations
19:38 est31 applying de morgan can eliminate 1 boolean operation
19:38 nore yep, that's what I'm expecting from the compiler
19:38 est31 yea
19:40 nore btw, what data structure does spatial use?
19:41 est31 R*
19:41 est31 R* tree
19:41 est31 link in PR description
19:42 nore reading a bit about it :)
19:46 est31 restarting computer
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19:52 * VanessaE peeks in
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21:34 paramat now pushing game 550
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21:35 VanessaE game#550
21:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/550 -- Default: Add savanna nodes, crafting and fuels by paramat
21:39 VanessaE paramat: oh btw, I will eventually be tweaking moretrees to just use the default nodes for acacia and pine, and I'll be discarding the textures it carries for those.
21:39 VanessaE just haven't gotten around to it yet.
21:39 paramat okay
21:46 paramat complete
21:55 est31 hmmmm, paramat cavegen is limited at mapchunk borders because otherwise it could carve into existing structures, no?
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22:21 paramat the pseudorandom caves actually overgenerate by up to 16 nodes
22:22 paramat then 'is ground content' was added to protect nodes from cavegen
22:26 paramat to protect mod nodes placed in 'on generated' from cavegen extending from a neighbouring mapchunk that is generated later
22:28 kilbith paramat: it's ok to have one tree and one flower for simplicity ?
22:35 paramat now, i don't mind having 2 mushrooms
22:36 kilbith only one would be boring, two is syndical minimum :P
22:41 paramat from working on mapgen, sometimes (like today) i get overly concerned about having too many decorations, for performance reasons
22:41 paramat but 2 is fine
22:41 est31 why would that inibit performance
22:42 kilbith the brown needs a friend anyways
22:43 paramat est, mgv5/v7 tunnels are 3D noise so are limited to the mapchunk. the pseudorandom caves were made to overgenerate in the hope they would link up to form networks
22:44 paramat every deco adds a tiny amount of processing, especially if each has a 2D noise controlling it's density
22:46 paramat from working lua mapgens i still have this habit of extrme efficiency =)
22:46 paramat (extreme)
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22:47 RealBadAngel howdy folks
22:47 kilbith hey
22:49 RealBadAngel im just reading comments to prs
22:49 RealBadAngel why are you against proper, mesh mushrooms?
22:50 kilbith all details in comments
22:50 est31 btw what about proper torches
22:50 est31 mesh for now
22:50 RealBadAngel we can have the on sight
22:50 kilbith est31: extruded torches incoming (?)
22:50 RealBadAngel i made them several months ago
22:50 est31 if/when we have extrusion, we can make them extruded
22:50 kilbith this is more flexible
22:50 est31 but for now mesh ones
22:51 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/ECELl3Y.png
22:51 RealBadAngel ^^mushrooms
22:51 est31 and if you say that texture packs cant "texturize" mesh nodes, we should add it as feature for the texture packs
22:51 kilbith people complained of performance drops on the BlockMen mesh torches
22:52 est31 RealBadAngel, no these are ugly
22:52 est31 I like blocky ones
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22:53 kilbith est31, you can texturize mesh but it only works with the same model
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22:53 kilbith people can't use different UV maps
22:53 kilbith for the same model
22:54 est31 whats uv maps
22:54 kilbith hmmm, i'm trying to make an analogy for explain
22:55 kilbith this is the "unrolled faces" of the model
22:55 kilbith then you can apply textures to specific location of that uv-map
22:56 kilbith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UV_mapping
22:57 kilbith as i'm 3D modelizer myself, i can say it's a no-go for flexibility
22:57 est31 so why not simply allow texture packs to change the model?
22:58 kilbith you don't textures packs for that
22:58 kilbith you simply need to put your model in /models
22:58 VanessaE est31: I asked for that months ago.
22:58 VanessaE and you can texture a model in a texture pack just fine.
22:58 kilbith but dealing with blender is way harder than drawing in gimp
22:58 VanessaE there's nothing different there than anywhere else, the textures are just perhaps bigger.
22:59 RealBadAngel sorry had to go out with trashcan
22:59 VanessaE if you're careful about designing your models so that they have multiple materials, one per section of the model (max 6) you can often get the textures that go onto those sections to be just 16x16 px
22:59 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/6kkxmnQ.png
23:00 kilbith it's too complicate for the regular users really
23:00 VanessaE RealBadAngel: extruded torches are a dead subject.
23:00 VanessaE kilbith: the whole damn GAME is too complex for regular users.
23:00 VanessaE except for playing it of course.
23:00 RealBadAngel even when theyre animated? :)
23:00 kilbith no, every moron can draw in gimp
23:00 VanessaE RealBadAngel: even when animated.  look at homedecor's 3dforniture torch for a better example of how it should be done.
23:01 VanessaE and it is animated too
23:01 kilbith we are only a small bunch to make sophisticated models with blender
23:01 kilbith that's it
23:01 RealBadAngel so make it
23:01 est31 kilbith, we are only a small bunch to make sophisticated source code written in c++
23:01 kilbith also homedecor's torch is metal one
23:01 est31 most of our devs dont know c++
23:02 RealBadAngel but when we will have a mesh for it, forget bout backwards compability
23:02 kilbith est31, mods are not made in c++
23:02 est31 s/devs/community members/
23:02 RealBadAngel its a proper way to do so, but compability with tps and games is impossible
23:05 kilbith est31, c++ allows to make smarted code but you would not want that for mods - same goes for 3d models vs 2d
23:05 kilbith smarter code*
23:06 est31 difference is, there arent that much nodes you would have to model
23:06 est31 imagine what you could do
23:06 RealBadAngel youre wrong with one thing kilbith
23:06 est31 eg you can make leaves meshnodes
23:06 est31 and make them "bushier"
23:06 est31 like kenney did
23:06 RealBadAngel meshes are faster than most of the drawtypes
23:07 RealBadAngel r2d2 model, having 2k faces is about same speed as stairs nodebox
23:08 kilbith well, when performance does matter in that case yes
23:08 est31 kilbith, how many texture packs exist?
23:09 kilbith 10-15, but there is also the custom textures of circumstances on servers
23:09 est31 its really stupid to restrict texture packs to not be abled to customize models just because "its hard to make 3d models"
23:09 VanessaE kilbith: my torch is only metal because that's how I textured it, but wood texture would look fine too I'm sure
23:10 est31 so lets suck and put a 2d flat texture into the world
23:10 VanessaE but my point was that it's an *example*
23:10 VanessaE I did not say to use that specific model
23:10 paramat if a mushroom was defined as a very simple nodebox of 3 cuboids, would the texturing be as simple as for example slabs?: 16x16 top, base, side textures that get projected onto the nodebox
23:10 VanessaE it just shows how you can make a torch that looks perfectly fine, including the animated flame, without extruding
23:11 kilbith VanessaE: no because there is bevel on top that is unexisting with a burning wood stick
23:11 RealBadAngel making good texture or an object requires skills no matter what
23:11 VanessaE kilbith: it's an example!  jeez
23:11 kilbith sure
23:11 VanessaE just use the IDEA, not the MODEL.
23:11 * VanessaE falls over
23:11 RealBadAngel keeping simple 16px rule and 2d nowadays is overkill? nah, its shooting own leg
23:14 paramat nodebox plants are only suitable if ultra-low resolution, like OCD game https://github.com/bas080/OCD_n​odes/raw/forum/screenshot_2.png note mushrooms
23:15 VanessaE paramat: oh G*D no, ANYTHING but that
23:15 VanessaE (sorry bas080)
23:15 est31 I like it, if the textures would be nicer
23:16 paramat well i mean in terms of resolution
23:16 est31 perhaps a *bit* higher
23:16 est31 but generally ok
23:16 paramat yeah
23:17 paramat 1/16th microvoxels are too small
23:17 paramat i would limit to 1/8th
23:17 kilbith else something like that : http://pastie.org/10288870
23:17 est31 1/16th is ok i think
23:17 kilbith with an option "fancy nodes", if selected -> set mesh
23:18 est31 or we make that through texture packs
23:25 RealBadAngel youre all seems to be confused
23:26 RealBadAngel you have the tools to make it look right
23:26 RealBadAngel but still want that 16px
23:27 RealBadAngel sorry guys, sad but true, atari is dead ;)
23:27 RealBadAngel we have to move on ;)
23:28 RealBadAngel anyway, on the other side, we do have now a few proper normalmaps in the game
23:28 kilbith there are basically two philosophies here
23:28 RealBadAngel i would like to get some feedback
23:28 kilbith the one all for minimalism, and the other for complete realism
23:29 kilbith i'd say : nothing in extremes
23:30 RealBadAngel kilbith, go watch "the librarians"
23:31 RealBadAngel are you familiar with those movies?
23:31 kilbith nope
23:31 RealBadAngel there are 3 full length movies and 2 seasons
23:32 RealBadAngel point is, while the job can look conservative, its not
23:33 RealBadAngel you have to keep up with standards
23:33 RealBadAngel and be open even for science fiction
23:33 kilbith conservatism is a way to stand on solid base that did its proves in the time
23:34 kilbith *proofs
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23:35 VanessaE yes but if all you ever have is the solid base, and build nothing on top of it, what's the point of having it at all
23:35 kilbith problem is that our base is not that overall solid enough
23:35 RealBadAngel please take a look at merged normal maps
23:35 VanessaE I'd say it is,.
23:35 VanessaE the engine on the other hand, still needs some work.
23:36 RealBadAngel are they of good quality?
23:36 VanessaE but what we have is perfectly fine as a base
23:36 RealBadAngel are they or not?
23:37 VanessaE what I saw in the screenshots was, RealBadAngel.
23:37 kilbith it's fine yes
23:37 RealBadAngel me in the textures? ;)
23:37 kilbith except the clipped edges
23:37 VanessaE but I hope using a texture pack that has no normals support isn't going to interfere
23:37 kilbith RealBadAngel: what happens if someone change the default textures someday ?
23:37 kilbith will you be there for changing the normal maps ?
23:38 kilbith because it will be fucked up if not
23:38 RealBadAngel he will have to change all the textures
23:38 kilbith exact...
23:38 kilbith more pain
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23:38 RealBadAngel diffuse, normal, specular and heightmap
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23:38 RealBadAngel specular is not yet in
23:38 RealBadAngel also metallic
23:39 kilbith i'm not sure that everyone has this knownledge for making normalmap
23:39 RealBadAngel who have told you that texturing is easy?
23:39 VanessaE RealBadAngel: you didn't answer my query.
23:39 RealBadAngel he lied
23:39 kilbith texturing is easy, normalmapping not
23:39 paramat why are these normalmaps 256px for 16px textures? curious
23:39 VanessaE will these default normalmaps interfere with texture packs that don't supply normals?
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23:39 VanessaE paramat: sharpness.
23:39 VanessaE a 16px normalmap would result in rounded edges
23:39 RealBadAngel paramat, 16px doesnt hold enough data
23:40 RealBadAngel 16px normal map just wont work
23:40 RealBadAngel out of definition
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23:40 paramat ah
23:40 RealBadAngel autogen works on effective resolution 512px
23:41 RealBadAngel 256px for supplied maps is a compromise
23:41 RealBadAngel but not down direction, it should be  even higher
23:42 RealBadAngel nowadays engines are using texs 2048 and higher
23:42 paramat now pushing new ice texture to game
23:43 VanessaE RealBadAngel: Minetest would collapse under such huge textures.
23:43 VanessaE irrlicht would have a heart attack
23:46 paramat complete
23:49 paramat phew busy day. i'll push RBA's simple leaves textures later
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