Time  Nick         Message
02:02 RealBadAngel hmmmm, here?
02:02 hmmmm        yes...?
02:05 RealBadAngel we have found reason for this "massive regression"
02:06 * VanessaE   grabs the popcorn...
02:06 RealBadAngel kinda funny. est31 was using debug build...
02:20 RealBadAngel anyway, going to push #2848, any objections?
02:20 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2848 -- Minimap update by RealBadAngel
04:25 hmmmm        RealBadAngel:  having a thread that does nothing too important and yet using 100% cpu even in a debug build is UNACCEPTABLE
12:47 Wuzzy        paramat, in GitHub you said something about underground biomes. do you want to explain?
14:42 Taoki        RealBadAngel: Compiling now to try out your minimaps. Thank you for this great feature :)
14:43 kilbith      finally an interesting feature has come out :)
14:43 Taoki        Indeed. Waiting for more noticeable features to happen.
14:44 Taoki        The GIT is thankfully active. But it's usually changes that add nothing new, or don't improve performance noticeably.
14:46 kilbith      yeah, crytography for protecting your apples in your chest is not that interesting from a player's standpoint
14:46 Taoki        Interestingly enough, however, it doesn't work for me at all
14:46 kilbith      fortunally we have RBA here for make this game worth of the name
14:47 Taoki        Even with enable_minimap = true in minetest.conf
14:47 Taoki        Yep :)
14:47 kilbith      MT would fall into the boringness without him, sadly
14:48 rubenwardy   Taoki, f9?
14:48 Taoki        Aha! Thanks
14:48 Taoki        Can you make it turn on by default automatically?
14:48 rubenwardy   I don't know
14:50 Taoki        If one is added, my game might enable this by default
14:51 Taoki        One question however: How does it deal with being in deep underground biomes, or high up on floating islands... for biomes that do either?
14:52 Taoki        Also, how can it be re-positioned. I would really like a way to move it in another corner on the screen... this might interfere with some HUD's
14:53 RealBadAngel Taoki, minimap setup via lua will be aviable in the future
14:53 RealBadAngel mods will be able to control it
14:53 Taoki        RealBadAngel: Awesome. That's what I was thinking about, yeah
14:53 kilbith      maybe craftable and placable in the future, also
14:53 kilbith      as a separate node
14:53 RealBadAngel yes, thats what im thinkin about
14:54 Taoki        RealBadAngel: More specifically: Only have the code generate the texture. Have mods be able to use it. On the HUD, or even on in-world paintings!
14:54 Taoki        Yep ^^
14:54 RealBadAngel that would be nice, big billboard around the spawn with world map
14:54 Taoki        Yep
14:55 kilbith      but there are higher priorities atm
14:55 kilbith      lighting, vbo, etc.
14:55 Taoki        RealBadAngel: Also, I know you probably have a lot on your hands, but since you're most experienced with video stuff: Can you please, please, please try to be the hero that fixes this year old issue? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6418 (yes, I'm talking about the VBO code)
14:55 Taoki        Woah... kilbith just mentioned VBO before I typed that o_o
14:55 RealBadAngel im playing with VBO right now
14:56 Taoki        Of all coincidences xD
14:56 kilbith      it being worked on
14:56 Taoki        Woah, nice!
14:56 Taoki        Again, of all coincidences. Can I read people's minds? ;)
14:56 RealBadAngel good is that it is working
14:56 RealBadAngel bad is that its gonna work flawlessly only when shaders enabled
14:56 Taoki        RealBadAngel: But thank you then! I really want the FPS improvements it brings, they are very important. If only it wasn't for that cursed memory usage...
14:56 kilbith      particles and lighting should be managed natively by irrlicht also
14:57 Taoki        Eh... it can be shaders-only, don't mind. Anything as long as it works :)
14:57 Taoki        kilbith: Agreed. Hardware is lighting is planned IIRC
14:57 Calinou      we can easily wait 2 years for hardware lighting
14:57 Taoki        I think VBO is a priority however. FPS and performance are a priority
14:57 Taoki        Calinou: Sure.
14:58 Taoki        Not much more than 2 years though :)
14:58 Taoki        Anyway BBL
15:37 RealBadAngel hi est31
15:37 RealBadAngel with those semaphores you forget bout one thing
15:37 RealBadAngel you let minimap update only when new blocks were loaded
15:39 est31        your fix is not needed, I think
15:40 est31        have you tested it?
15:40 RealBadAngel ofc its needed
15:40 RealBadAngel without it map will never update
15:40 RealBadAngel i mean without new blocks
15:40 est31        yes
15:41 RealBadAngel and thats wrong
15:41 est31        but usually a map update is a "new block"
15:41 RealBadAngel no
15:41 RealBadAngel map is being made out of cached blocks
15:42 RealBadAngel you havent get the idea how it works
15:42 RealBadAngel cached blocks are not the map
15:43 RealBadAngel theyre just data for mapper, and you have disabled map generation just
15:48 RealBadAngel anyway, you dont need now fancy gimmicks with texture
15:49 RealBadAngel i couldnt understand why you would ever need that, until i realized that you have broken map generation ;)
15:55 rubenwardy   Hi, I'd like reviewers for #2094 and/or #1748
15:55 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2094 -- Fix offset being ignored by inventory bar HUD by rubenwardy
15:55 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1748 -- Add lua errors to error dialog by rubenwardy
16:06 est31        ok RealBadAngel I agree the fix is needed
16:18 est31        rubenwardy, 2094 is still waiting for sapier, isnt it
16:19 rubenwardy   Sapier is the one that wrote the hud scaling code and knows how it works
16:19 rubenwardy   but he's been AWOL for a while
16:20 rubenwardy   What's it called when you copy a piece of code from one section to another, without understanding how it works?
16:20 est31        copy-paste??
16:20 est31        dunno
16:21 est31        either way I wonder how other people see this +1 rule for PRs from core devs
16:21 est31        for me, the author being a coredev counts as first +1
16:21 est31        hmmmm said its not how it was meant
16:22 rubenwardy   It needs to be reviewed separately by other people, as the author may miss things
16:22 rubenwardy   the whole clean pair of eyes thing
16:24 est31        I know, but the author of the PR is trusted, being a coredev
16:24 est31        I mean, then this maintainer thingy where you can push without any review is even worse
16:25 rubenwardy   true
16:26 hmmmm        okay
16:26 hmmmm        so code peer reviews are usually carried out by two peers
16:26 hmmmm        i.e. not the author himself
16:26 hmmmm        core developers are given more trust, they have commit privileges ffs
16:27 hmmmm        but i don't see why there should be more complacency in reviewing their code
16:27 hmmmm        core developers sure aren't falliable
16:27 hmmmm        the trivial exception should be obvious
16:27 hmmmm        the maintainer exception doesn't mean without review
16:27 hmmmm        you should at least announce what's going on in the channel
16:28 hmmmm        completely new features should probably have more review, like I would say 3 people
16:28 est31        hmmmm, all nice, but we have 95 open pull requests
16:29 est31        I still miss a second +1 from the game maintainers
16:29 est31        you cant say "I want 1000 people to review this" if none of them are active
16:29 hmmmm        i know
16:30 hmmmm        there's simply not enough active people
16:30 est31        if we had more, I'd agree to your ideas, but now we can't afford them
16:30 hmmmm        so which is it?  compromise quality?
16:31 hmmmm        i tend to value quality more than snazzy new features
16:31 hmmmm        a lot of developers got upset with this choice and this is how freeminer was born
16:31 hmmmm        less oversight, less review, less rigor, and as a result, less stable
16:31 est31        quality is important too, yes.
16:32 hmmmm        a lot of people are already upset with how slow and unstable minetest is
16:32 hmmmm        we don't need to make the problem worse
16:32 est31        a lot of people are already upset with how slow development is
16:32 hmmmm        there's like less than one person working on minetest at any given time
16:33 est31        I try hard to reduce the number of open prs
16:33 hmmmm        there are a lot of people who like to play video games but not a lot of people who are able to code them
16:33 hmmmm        est31, let's go through some pull requests
16:33 hmmmm        are you free for the next hour or so?
16:33 est31        yes
16:34 est31        I see it this way, if there is a problem with a merged PR, then those core devs who +1ed it (and the author) are responsible to fix the issue
16:34 hmmmm        do you think that encourages people to +1
16:34 hmmmm        or hide
16:34 est31        and btw, if we couldn't have fixed the 100% cpu problem yesterday, a git revert would have been justified
16:35 hmmmm        I still think there's room for optimization there
16:35 hmmmm        and I mean no offense to RBA, but knowing him, he's never going to perfect the feature
16:35 est31        thats what we have master for
16:36 est31        its not perfect yes, but already in a playable, acceptable state
16:36 hmmmm        if things don't get done the right way the first time around, nobody goes back to fix them
16:36 est31        also, which problems do you see with minimap?
16:37 est31        I think if we see master as a holy temple where only 100% perfect code can be commited, master is dead.
16:38 est31        I dont want to blindly add any pr proposed
16:38 est31        like freeminer
16:38 hmmmm        well I don't know if it's a problem for sure but it seems to me like the consumer could get oversaturated
16:38 est31        eg they added gsmapper
16:38 est31        horribly laggy
16:38 hmmmm        so
16:38 est31        we didnt
16:39 hmmmm        we want developers who add things to follow through with their creations and make sure it's 100% perfect
16:39 est31        and rba rewrote a new minimap, and its much greater now
16:39 hmmmm        but this isn't happening because polish is booooring
16:39 hmmmm        what's fun is making new buggy code with awesome cool new features
16:40 hmmmm        if this were the corporate world people would need to make their own code 100% perfect because their food depends on it
16:40 hmmmm        we don't have that kind of coersiveness
16:41 est31        it depends on where you are in corporate world
16:41 hmmmm        can you think of some way to encourage developers to develop complete solutions
16:41 est31        I agree we shouldn't rush things
16:42 est31        but very few people can write acceptable c++ code, and even fewer can polish it
16:42 hmmmm        what I would like to know is how we're doing relative to other open source projects of the same type, with the same amount of users, and the same amount of developers
16:42 est31        I don't think we should say "sorry you cant contribute" for those who only write acceptable code
16:43 hmmmm        because these are problems inherent with the development model
16:43 hmmmm        maybe minetest is actually doing fantastic
16:43 hmmmm        the Linux kernel is something that's quite universal
16:43 hmmmm        it's useful to everybody
16:44 est31        but certainly not our size
16:44 hmmmm        it has so many developers that they can afford to say "sorry you can't contribute" unless their code is stupendous
16:44 hmmmm        so, is this some kind of open source project darwinism at work?
16:45 hmmmm        the most inherently useful/universal projects get the highest quality development and the most attention?
16:46 est31        still it doesn't mean our code can't be polished
16:46 est31        SN likes to polishh things
16:46 hmmmm        only the people who /care/ are the ones going to polish
16:46 hmmmm        nothing is likely to come of this talk
16:47 hmmmm        the problems are obvious, the solutions are not
16:47 rubenwardy   How can we motivate people to do bug fixing and polishes etc?
16:48 hmmmm        by its very nature, minetest attracts complete novices to coding
16:48 est31        I think, as long as we have acceptable master, where there are no side effects of new features, everything is fine
16:48 hmmmm        the more advanced the developer, the less likely a bug fix or polish will be necessary to begin with
16:48 est31        polishing can be done later, and be done by other people who add the features
16:48 hmmmm        who are the 'other people'?
16:48 rubenwardy   I mean generally, as in bug fixing existing code.
16:48 est31        those who care, hmmmm.
16:48 est31        as you said
16:49 hmmmm        there aren't enough of those types
16:49 est31        unfortunately
16:49 hmmmm        there's me, you, zeno, SN,
16:49 hmmmm        and that's about it
16:49 est31        yea :(
16:49 hmmmm        I took the approach of being the polish-er for some guy's new feature
16:49 hmmmm        that's the result of Hud
16:50 hmmmm        err, that's how Hud came about
16:50 kilbith      not only the core-devs does the dirty work fyi
16:50 rubenwardy   I'd love to be able to help more, I just don't have the experience. :(
16:50 hmmmm        Hud was actually nicely polished for a while before people started tacking more stuff onto it
16:50 hmmmm        but it took the effort of two people at the same time
16:51 hmmmm        and no doubt it's more frustrating for the other person
16:51 est31        i think this is a key
16:51 est31        everybody should have fun
16:51 est31        this is a free time project, no corporate project
16:52 est31        and even there its contraproductive to frustrate people
16:52 hmmmm        i used to tell people that open source code is of the same or higher quality than proprietary code
16:52 Calinou      it is still true :-)
16:52 hmmmm        that's not true in the general case i think
16:52 hmmmm        because look at the motivations at play
16:53 Calinou      writing bad code at work is rarely frowned upon
16:53 hmmmm        it might be true for linux or whatever
16:53 Calinou      maybe in some startups, but that's the exception, not the norm
16:53 est31        hmmmm, not every corporation makes code as polished as yours
16:53 est31        at least I think
16:53 hmmmm        and not every corporation makes code as polished as my corporation does
16:53 hmmmm        :\
16:54 hmmmm        bleh
16:54 hmmmm        i think it's impossible to know for sure
16:54 rubenwardy   Not every open source project makes code as shitty as mine
16:54 hmmmm        everybody is able to view all open source projects
16:54 hmmmm        but only a very select subset of people are able to see a very select subset of corporate code
16:56 est31        yea
16:56 hmmmm        alright, starting right now, I'd like as many people as possible to participate in the PR clearing
16:56 est31        ok
16:56 hmmmm        starting with the oldest PR first: #816
16:56 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/816 -- Add wield light by Zeg9
16:56 est31        next hour is free for me
16:57 hmmmm        so this PR did a great job at what it's supposed to do
16:57 hmmmm        the primary hangup was that people were calling it unfair
16:58 est31        lemme see
16:59 est31        yes, its one of the design descisions that shaders may not affect gameplay
17:00 est31        what we need is a new "wield light" "layer"
17:00 est31        example of low quality vs feature
17:02 est31        ok what about the next open one #943
17:02 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/943 -- Increase the amount of particles that breaking a node generates by ShadowNinja
17:02 hmmmm        wait
17:02 est31        this one depends on irrlicht particles
17:02 hmmmm        what was the resolution for the last one
17:03 est31        "needs improvement"
17:03 est31        what do you think
17:03 hmmmm        so you think it should be added
17:03 kilbith      est31, particles are effectively slowing down the game when there are in high number
17:03 est31        no
17:03 hmmmm        the feature itself
17:03 est31        yes its good as feature
17:03 hmmmm        when that PR first came around I supported it
17:04 hmmmm        it's just that there were more naysayers than supporters
17:04 hmmmm        so it sat
17:04 hmmmm        the primary hangup is that it's unfair, but fairness is not determined by developers of the core, but rather the mod makers
17:04 hmmmm        the subgame
17:04 est31        you didnt get a supporter (of the current state) with me :)
17:04 est31        unfair?
17:05 hmmmm        unfair because you don't have to create torches to light up caves
17:05 hmmmm        just one
17:05 est31        ah that
17:05 hmmmm        I think that piece of code should be kept for future reference and historical reasons but
17:05 hmmmm        wield lighting and things like that will be part of client side scripting if our security polices allow
17:05 est31        here I agree with you, its not a matter of core to decide
17:05 hmmmm        brb
17:06 est31        but subgame
17:06 est31        server should send to client whether it has wield lightning
17:06 est31        either with client side shaders, or a simple flag in protocol, or whatever
17:07 est31        while I myself am for the flag
17:09 hmmmm        err...
17:09 hmmmm        hold on, i'll be back in like 15 minutes
17:09 est31        ok
17:20 Taoki        RealBadAngel: An idea has been on my mind recently. Since you are the shader developer, it's probably you I should bring it up to and ask about...
17:21 Taoki        RealBadAngel: I was wondering whether Minetest could make use to one of those 2D filters used to smooth out pixelated textures or games. You see them on GameBoy Advance or DOS emulators. Basically, they take a large pixelated image and rounden all of the pictures. Such filters have names like SAI, or Super Eagle.
17:21 Taoki        http://i.imgur.com/eo3IJ.png
17:21 Taoki        http://gerbilsoft.soniccenter.org/gens/manual/images/render/render-super-eagle.png
17:21 Calinou      yeah, HQX or such
17:21 Taoki        Some examples. The games in those screenshots are normally pixelated, like Minetest textures. Yet the filter makes them smooth like that
17:21 Calinou      those are pretty expensive, and it doesn't bring much to add them
17:22 Taoki        I see
17:22 Taoki        I was thinking that with x16 textures, such a filter could be used to soften them and make them look more artistic
17:23 Taoki        http://filthypants.blogspot.ro/2012/03/xbr-vs-hqx-interpolation-filter.html This descripes the idea in more depth
17:26 Taoki        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hqx Even better, to get an idea of what and how
17:27 Elinvention  what's the problem with hardware lightning in minetest?
17:27 Taoki        Elinvention: No one's gotten around to implementing it yet.
17:28 Elinvention  Minetest is based on Irrlicht right? Irrlicht doesn't support it?
17:29 est31        first: yes, second: dunno
17:29 Calinou      hardware lighting is also quite slow
17:29 Calinou      even for today's hardware
17:29 Calinou      (that is, realtime lighting)
17:30 Taoki        Elinvention: It does. We just aren't using it yet.
17:30 Taoki        Also seems someone already wrote hqx glsl filters. https://github.com/Armada651/hqx-shader/tree/master/glsl
17:31 Taoki        https://www.shadertoy.com/view/MslGRS Cool, another example :o
17:36 Elinvention  If hardware lightning were used, the shaders wouldn't have to be on to see the light, isn't it?
17:37 Elinvention  sorry lighting
17:44 Taoki        Yes, that's not shader related
19:24 est31        hmmmm, back?
19:24 hmmmm        yeah
19:25 est31        ok, so the oldest pr needs enhancement, and some call it unfair
19:25 hmmmm        alright so my recommendation for 816 is that the code should be kept for reference purposes but it won't be merged in its current form at all
19:25 est31        yes
19:25 hmmmm        the reason why it's unfair is because fairness is defined by the subgame, not the developers
19:25 hmmmm        so it's a client-side modding thing
19:26 est31        or at least it should rely on some value sent by the server to the client
19:26 est31        and not settable by the client.
19:26 hmmmm        absolutely
19:26 est31        ok #943
19:26 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/943 -- Increase the amount of particles that breaking a node generates by ShadowNinja
19:26 hmmmm        if we do decide that running shaders downloaded from a server is safe enough, it'll be implemented that way
19:26 hmmmm        so I think we should close it
19:26 hmmmm        btw
19:27 hmmmm        we need to end each of our discussions with a final decision to keep open and add a comment to the PR, or close it out
19:27 est31        doesn't "keep around for reference purposes" mean keeping open?
19:27 hmmmm        keep it somewhere
19:27 hmmmm        make a branch perhaps
19:27 hmmmm        i don't know, but it's not going to be merged so it should be closed
19:27 hmmmm        #943
19:27 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/943 -- Increase the amount of particles that breaking a node generates by ShadowNinja
19:28 RealBadAngel hmmmm, i rather take care of my code, when given feedback im able to fix things
19:28 hmmmm        what do you think
19:29 RealBadAngel see what happened just a few minutes ago in main
19:29 hmmmm        the particle amount should be a setting
19:29 hmmmm        not some hard coded thing
19:29 kilbith      particles in high amount is FPS killer, VanessaE please told them
19:29 kilbith      (example : shower head's particles)
19:29 hmmmm        that's because the current particle implementation sucks
19:29 kilbith      exactly
19:29 hmmmm        so...
19:29 hmmmm        want to close it out?
19:29 est31        yes
19:29 hmmmm        alright
19:30 hmmmm        close #943
19:30 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/943 -- Increase the amount of particles that breaking a node generates by ShadowNinja
19:30 est31        its too small for it
19:30 hmmmm        make sure you actually add a reason why you're closing it too btw
19:30 hmmmm        or do you want me to
19:30 RealBadAngel hold on a second with those particles
19:30 est31        close it, I am doing it for 816
19:30 RealBadAngel we are talking about a few particles when diggin a node
19:31 RealBadAngel its absolutely not a huge ammount and it doesnt affect fps
19:31 RealBadAngel its not moddable stuff
19:31 RealBadAngel i did the same with digging tweaks
19:32 kilbith      RBA, try out the homedecor shower head's particle with 60 particles/s
19:32 RealBadAngel cracks are far worse for the engine (by triggering several times mesh update) than those few particles
19:32 kilbith      you'll see the bad effect
19:33 RealBadAngel damn, we are not talking about shower now
19:33 kilbith      it's the same particles
19:33 RealBadAngel just a few more particles when digging
19:33 kilbith      and it's already really BAD with 60 particles/s
19:33 RealBadAngel cracks are worse
19:33 kilbith      FPS drops as -15 FPS
19:34 RealBadAngel with what?
19:34 kilbith      a old GPU
19:34 RealBadAngel what is causing that drop i ask
19:34 hmmmm        a crack animation triggers a mesh update?
19:34 kilbith      when you turns on the shower head flowing 60 particles/s
19:35 RealBadAngel hmm suprised?
19:35 hmmmm        it shouldn't do that
19:35 RealBadAngel kilbith, that issue wasnt about the shower
19:35 kilbith      but i talk about the particles not the shower itself
19:35 kilbith      VanessaE ^
19:36 RealBadAngel kilbith, dont mix issues plz
19:36 RealBadAngel hmmmm, i said about that many times and tried to replace those damn cracks with particles
19:36 RealBadAngel but cracks seems to be kinda freaky religion here
19:36 est31        #1685 is too ugly
19:37 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1685 -- Digging animations tweaks. by RealBadAngel
19:37 RealBadAngel ugly?
19:37 RealBadAngel oh thx :P
19:37 est31        jugding from the video, i dont like it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjG1bUBFPB0
19:37 est31        lol
19:37 RealBadAngel fuck the vid
19:38 RealBadAngel try the feature before trashing it
19:38 hmmmm        yeah I don't like it either...
19:38 RealBadAngel so live with cracks :P :)
19:39 hmmmm        there should be a technically better way to replace a single texture in a mesh with a different variant
19:39 RealBadAngel theyre even more ugly, doesnt fit all drawtypes, eat memory and lag engine
19:39 RealBadAngel long live the cracks!
19:39 est31        heh
19:40 hmmmm        don't change a part of minetest that everybody likes because you personally can't figure out a way to make them more efficient
19:40 RealBadAngel nobody even noticed that this feature has an option to turn it on and off
19:40 Krock        http://i62.tinypic.com/2qkt6j5.jpg I want cracks too
19:40 RealBadAngel so one can have cracks, another highlighting plus particles
19:41 hmmmm        I think if we are hoping to generalize minetest more into an engine than a minecraft clone with some lua scripting, it's essential to somehow abstract the crack animation away from digs
19:41 kilbith      RBA, the trigger on particles is the same whether you're digging a node or activate a particlespawner
19:41 kilbith      so it's the same issue
19:41 RealBadAngel you dont dig 100 nodes at the time
19:42 RealBadAngel so it cannot cause an issue like lets say 100 showers :P
19:42 kilbith      how many time per second you punch a node when holding left click ?
19:43 kilbith      it's lotsa of particles
19:43 RealBadAngel if that digging effect is causing fps drop, im chinese ballet dancer :P
19:44 RealBadAngel and hmm, est31 how easy for you to drop the feature without even trying how it works and feels
19:44 RealBadAngel thats common
19:44 Krock        it's surely causing a minimalistic fps drop :P
19:44 hmmmm        alright
19:44 RealBadAngel "screenshot is enough"
19:45 RealBadAngel bullshit
19:45 hmmmm        so I just closed #943
19:45 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/943 -- Increase the amount of particles that breaking a node generates by ShadowNinja
19:45 hmmmm        onto #958
19:45 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/958 -- Add player list, viewable by holding Tab by sfan5
19:45 hmmmm        ahh, this one... I remember this one
19:46 hmmmm        this was implemented back when we couldn't change fonts or font colors and so the text was white on light gray and was practically impossible to read
19:47 hmmmm        it could be fixed and merged, but do we really want this to be a part of the core?  this is the kind of thing that could be trivially implemented in a mod
19:47 hmmmm        what do you guys think?
19:49 est31        yea a mod should do this
19:49 TeTpaAka     This should be made by a mod, imho. The only problem for a mod would be the key binding.
19:49 TeTpaAka     But this could be fixed by client side modding.
19:51 hmmmm        client side modding has been the answer for a couple of these mods now
19:51 hmmmm        I'm going to boost the priority of client side modding
19:51 hmmmm        this is going to be what I work on after fixing some immediate bugs
19:51 hmmmm        we'll get the keybinding and screen drawing/hud features out first
19:52 hmmmm        formspec is going to be more difficult to replace so that'll come later rather than sooner
19:52 est31        ok
19:53 hmmmm        but yeah I don't agree with adding things like this to the core
19:53 hmmmm        it's a core, not a game
19:53 hmmmm        the game is the collection of mods
19:56 * VanessaE   wanders in
19:57 est31        what bugs?
19:58 hmmmm        I'm going to finally fix the damage flashing bug
19:58 VanessaE     kilbith is right about the particles though - whether they are spawned by a dig action, single-particle actions (as in the "snowdrift" mod), or as spawners like homedecor's faucets and showerhead, the more particles there are, the slower the FPS.  Too late now since you already did it, but I sadly agree to closing SN's PR.
19:58 hmmmm        there's also the player texture bug
19:58 hmmmm        basically, nerzhul leftovers that he never bothered with
19:58 VanessaE     hmmmm: you talking about the fake damage in creative mode?
19:58 kilbith      ^ RBA read that
19:58 hmmmm        yes
19:59 hmmmm        i know the reason for that
19:59 est31        player texture?
19:59 VanessaE     est31: sometimes the player texture comes out flat
19:59 jin_xi       lots of particles with collision detection. its expensive
19:59 hmmmm        tl;dr the server sends a DIEPLAYER event even if damage is disabled
19:59 VanessaE     instead of wrapped around a model, or comes out as "the green guy" for no reason
20:00 hmmmm        so what do you want to do
20:00 hmmmm        close out 958?
20:01 est31        yes
20:01 hmmmm        we should be keeping track of which features are getting re-written using client side modding
20:01 est31        there is http://dev.minetest.net/Client_scripting_plans
20:01 hmmmm        there it is
20:02 hmmmm        i was literally about to ask you for the link
20:02 est31        heh
20:02 est31        It has mostly stuff about the general construction
20:02 est31        not about the feature
20:02 est31        s
20:02 hmmmm        I am adding a new section
20:02 est31        but certainly a good place to put them
20:02 est31        ok
20:05 hmmmm        maybe we should add an issue to make the number of particles settable per-nodedef
20:06 hmmmm        so digging a sand node would make lots of particles whereas others maybe not so much
20:06 hmmmm        an issue so we remember about it at least
20:06 est31        good idea
20:07 VanessaE     offtopic, sorta:  https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3933&p=183022#p182987
20:08 VanessaE     (summary:  it would be nice if a server could detect settings on the client, for client-side configuration of a server-side mod)
20:09 VanessaE     hmmmm: as I recall, sfan5's old particles mod could (if extended) do exactly that
20:09 hmmmm        hmm
20:09 VanessaE     but it used entities to spawn particles, so it was even slower, and laggy as well
20:10 hmmmm        you have me wondering now
20:10 VanessaE     ?
20:10 hmmmm        see, I had the idea of maybe using client side scripting for all special visual effects
20:10 hmmmm        like remember the light aura around light sources i implemented
20:10 hmmmm        instead of making that an attribute of the node
20:11 hmmmm        that should be a scripted special effect to draw each time that type of node is rendered
20:11 hmmmm        except in some manner that makes it fast
20:11 VanessaE     I remember that light aura
20:11 hmmmm        in the same way, could a local-only particle spawner be created on_dig?
20:11 VanessaE     in fact I was just thinking about that last night, wondering if it could be implemented again
20:11 hmmmm        i wouldn't hard code the effect in
20:12 est31        good idea
20:12 hmmmm        it would have to be made generic somehow
20:12 hmmmm        and keep in mind this also needs to be fast
20:12 hmmmm        i.e. register things, not execute lua on a callback
20:12 hmmmm        and it needs to not suck
20:13 VanessaE     well this is one of those times when it would be pretty obvious how the API should work at least
20:13 VanessaE     register_node(foo, { client_on_dig = function(blah) ; do particles ; end })
20:14 VanessaE     i.e. like a callback, but said code would be uploaded to the client at init, to be executed later
20:15 hmmmm        that's how it's already going to work
20:15 VanessaE     well at least we agree on THAT much :P
20:16 hmmmm        I don't know, maybe digging a node isn't hot enough of an event to have a registration for
20:16 hmmmm        but node rendering effect should be registered
20:16 VanessaE     why not?
20:16 hmmmm        because
20:16 hmmmm        you hardly ever dig a node
20:16 VanessaE     we have callbacks for 1927423 other things
20:16 hmmmm        so there will be two callbacks
20:16 hmmmm        start_dig
20:16 VanessaE     oh no, believe me that's not true :)_
20:16 hmmmm        end_dig
20:16 hmmmm        it'll be like mouse_up and mouse_down
20:16 VanessaE     that's not too bad an idea
20:16 hmmmm        end_dig will have some kind of boolean if the dig completed
20:17 VanessaE     good idea
20:17 hmmmm        well
20:17 hmmmm        i'm just spouting obvious ideas
20:17 VanessaE     but I mean, we have on-construct, on dig, after dig, and a few others
20:17 sfan5        >on dig, after dig
20:17 est31        gtg
20:17 sfan5        wouldn't on dig be equivalent to on punch then?
20:17 VanessaE     I meant on punch rather
20:18 hmmmm        oh
20:18 hmmmm        sfan5:  perhaps so
20:18 hmmmm        except on_punch would be much more generalized than on_dig
20:19 hmmmm        est left
20:19 hmmmm        would the rest of you like to continue looking at old PRs?
20:20 kilbith      est31 ^
20:20 hmmmm        he just said he left
20:21 VanessaE     old PRs is a good idea.
20:21 hmmmm        the next one is kind of a doozey
20:21 hmmmm        i'd like to skip it for now...
20:21 VanessaE     ?
20:26 est31        back?
20:26 est31        back!
20:26 VanessaE     BACK!
20:26 VanessaE     :)
20:26 VanessaE     hmmmm: which one are you talking about?
20:26 hmmmm        meta set nodedef
20:26 VanessaE     eek
20:26 hmmmm        i would like to merge that eventually
20:27 VanessaE     that's been wanted for like, forever, but one thing that occurred to me recently is, what's the worst-case scenario for a map with a fuckdton of nodes so-modified?
20:27 VanessaE     I mean, double the size?  triple?
20:27 hmmmm        i'm not really sure
20:27 hmmmm        it's going to be much larger, definitely.
20:27 est31        it depends on how the format is
20:27 hmmmm        i thought you left est
20:27 hmmmm        :)
20:27 est31        yea
20:27 est31        <est31> back!
20:28 hmmmm        oh
20:28 hmmmm        rrrr
20:28 hmmmm        anyway skipping #1118 for now... like I said, it's a doozey.  but I want it at least, and it needs a rebase
20:28 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1118 -- Meta set nodedef by Novatux
20:29 hmmmm        #1188 looks pretty good apart from some minor style issues
20:29 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1188 -- getTime refactoring by Selat
20:29 hmmmm        how do you guys feel about separating porting.cpp things into separate files based on 'topic'?
20:29 est31        and that it needs a rebase
20:29 est31        if we do so, we should add a new directory
20:29 est31        only for porting
20:30 est31        but ok
20:30 hmmmm        yeah
20:30 hmmmm        so this is going to add get_time.cpp or something
20:31 hmmmm        porting/get_time.cpp?
20:31 hmmmm        instead of "porting" why not something more immediately clear such as "platform-dependent code"
20:31 hmmmm        that should be in a separate issue, though.
20:32 est31        yes
20:32 est31        it should still be inside the porting namespace
20:33 hmmmm        what arguments are there for having it namespaced?
20:33 est31        because its only a platform dependent helper code
20:33 est31        basically what porting is
20:37 Nihao        Hello, protectors of the core cubes :)
20:37 Nihao        I have a question about loss of material on exchange:   http://pastebin.com/awvFdh14
20:37 Nihao        Probably the same as    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2028
20:37 Nihao        It kind of "disturbs" (!) the gameplay and seems to appear with Barter Table and chests at least.
20:37 Nihao        Is it possible to fix that?
20:38 est31        it is if you know how to reproduce
20:39 Nihao        est31: Sorry, I do not reproduce it, but it crashes the server 10 tiles a day.
20:39 Nihao        times*
20:39 Nihao        Just crashed again....
20:40 est31        it is possible that a player used this to volunarily crash the server
20:40 est31        perhaps
20:40 Nihao        How to know?
20:41 Nihao        Can you instrument the code?
20:41 Nihao        To have more data in the logs
20:41 est31        Nihao, just try a debug build
20:41 est31        and open it in gdb
20:42 Nihao        With 25 people?
20:42 est31        at least its no nrz bug
20:43 Nihao        :) seems to be good news. What does it mean?
20:43 est31        that its old
20:44 Nihao        nrz
20:44 Nihao        It is old and has neve been fixed.
20:44 kilbith      nrz = core-dev
20:44 Nihao        Maybe a survivor.
20:45 Nihao        Or a really hard one.
20:46 Nihao        Or both, anyway, how can I instrumnt the code on the "productive" server to have more useful data in the logs?
20:46 est31        debug build
20:47 est31        gdb
20:47 est31        gdb has no real performance penalty
20:47 est31        or no big
20:47 est31        unlike valgrind
20:47 est31        that one is a biggie
20:48 Nihao        OK, thanks est31, I have to think that over and will hopefully be back with more precise indications soon.
21:25 kilbith      so the PRs clearing out has stopped ?
21:26 est31        seems so
21:27 hmmmm        nope
21:27 hmmmm        let's continue on
21:27 hmmmm        let's make our goal to get below 90
21:27 hmmmm        so what do you guys think about #1277
21:27 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1277 -- Update to Lua 5.2 by ShadowNinja
21:28 kilbith      better picking 5.3 now maybe ?
21:28 hmmmm        yeah, i was thinking the same.
21:28 hmmmm        does anybody know the story of 5.3 compat with luajit?
21:30 est31        its nonexistent I think
21:30 est31        last time I checked
21:30 est31        and yes, we can switch to any version luajit supports
21:30 hmmmm        the whole selling point of luajit is that you can drop it in and it'll work
21:30 est31        but only fully supports
21:30 est31        and other way round too
21:30 hmmmm        right
21:30 hmmmm        it needs to be a 1:1 replacement
21:31 est31        yes
21:31 hmmmm        what do you think we should do
21:31 hmmmm        keep open or close?
21:32 est31        SN has invested quite alot of work
21:32 est31        it seems
21:32 est31        a large diff
21:32 est31        ah
21:32 hmmmm        the majority of that is updating the builtin version of lua
21:32 est31        its only cped from lua source
21:32 hmmmm        which is not builtin anymore
21:32 est31        yea
21:33 est31        really?
21:33 est31        what is in src/lua then
21:34 hmmmm        ah..
21:34 hmmmm        maybe it doesn't use builtin by default then..?
21:34 hmmmm        oh it was sqlite that got dumped
21:34 est31        what I hate about lua is that they break every single release
21:34 est31        yes
21:35 hmmmm        why is there so much inconsistency between which libraries get bundled by default
21:35 est31        this is a thing a language shouldnt do
21:35 est31        ?
21:35 hmmmm        sqlite isn't bundled, but lua is bundled
21:35 hmmmm        why was this choice made
21:35 est31        dunno, before my time
21:36 hmmmm        irrlicht isn't bundled
21:36 hmmmm        so you can't make the argument that only essential libraries are bundled
21:36 est31        I dunno
21:37 hmmmm        so hrmm
21:37 hmmmm        updating lua to 5.2 - close out?
21:38 est31        http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2012-01/msg00787.html
21:38 est31        "o not hold out for a fully 5.2-compatible version of LuaJIT, if you
21:38 est31        are thinking of it. Mike Pall has made it clear that he dislikes and
21:38 est31        disagrees with many of the choices made by the Lua team for this
21:38 est31        version, and has no intention of moving away from a primarily
21:38 est31        5.1-based LuaJIT."
21:38 est31        cite that and close it
21:38 hmmmm        luajit support is honestly more important than lua support
21:39 hmmmm        in 99% of the cases people are going to use luajit
21:39 est31        yes
21:39 hmmmm        (also that's an argument why I believe lua shouldn't be bundled by default any longer)
21:39 est31        but in the 1% where sb runs valgrind, things have to run smoothly too
21:39 hmmmm        should we get rid of minigmp too, do you think?
21:39 est31        *shrug*
21:40 est31        if you get the windows build people to agree
21:40 hmmmm        windows builds are a whole other level of pain
21:40 est31        OTOH, who is hurt by those files
21:41 hmmmm        well for a while I tried taking over the windows build
21:41 hmmmm        it was quite tough getting all the dependencies together
21:45 est31        so, the PR can be closed?
21:46 hmmmm        yeah hold on
21:46 hmmmm        i am closing it
21:46 est31        ok
21:50 est31        next one?
21:53 hmmmm        yeah
21:53 hmmmm        #1220
21:53 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1220 -- Player information window by MirceaKitsune
21:54 hmmmm        watch 5 more PRs get added tomorrow
21:54 est31        heh
21:54 hmmmm        it's enough to make you say fuckit and give up
21:54 hmmmm        hmm
21:54 hmmmm        so this is formspec-based
21:55 hmmmm        i like the idea behind it
21:55 est31        this one is better
21:55 hmmmm        the implementation sorta sucks though
21:56 hmmmm        the implementation is pretty good for what it is, a formspec, but the problem is that it uses formspec
21:56 hmmmm        and you have to type a command to open it
21:56 hmmmm        could we merge this together with the connected player list idea for client-side modding?
21:57 kilbith      it's too specifical to be added in builtin imho
21:57 est31        if we go with our previous descision, we have to close this too
21:57 kilbith      belongs to a mod
21:57 est31        ^
21:57 hmmmm        maaaaaaaybe
21:57 est31        or minetest_game
21:57 hmmmm        yeah
21:57 est31        I'd like to have it in minetest_game
21:58 hmmmm        idea time
21:58 hmmmm        what if basic player connection info gets displayed as part of a list in builtin client side modding
21:58 hmmmm        and then other games can override the info screen
21:59 hmmmm        so if you hold down tab on a game that doesn't implement this special info screen it'll just show basic information like name, connected time, latency
21:59 kilbith      also no need a formspec here, /ping <player> would be sufficient
21:59 hmmmm        but if you have special player information in your special game
21:59 hmmmm        you can override the tab button to open /your/ player info display with the game-specific stuff
21:59 hmmmm        yes? no?
22:00 est31        I dunno
22:00 est31        it gives this "default" feature
22:00 hmmmm        the default thing could be part of minetest_game then
22:00 hmmmm        well
22:00 hmmmm        I don't know, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it
22:00 est31        do we have this at other places too?
22:00 hmmmm        what now
22:01 est31        yea good
22:01 est31        it has issues of its own
22:01 est31        like minetest.setting_get("max_users")
22:01 est31        wrong info
22:01 hmmmm        ohh :/
22:02 est31        (unrelated from whether to close or not)
22:02 est31        I'd suggest we close this too, and wait for client side scripting and a formspec replacement
22:02 hmmmm        yeah
22:02 hmmmm        we can do soo much better
22:03 hmmmm        like don't get me wrong - i think this is great
22:03 hmmmm        it's the best that it can be
22:04 hmmmm        but the interfaces suck and it's like we're telling people to build a house with a saw and no hammer
22:04 est31        yea its dangerous to close PRs because "clientside scripting will make this all obsolete"
22:04 hmmmm        right
22:05 hmmmm        after this first batch that's what we'll get working on
22:05 est31        sfan5's solution is more proper
22:05 hmmmm        this is pretty high priority now that i look at it
22:07 hmmmm        in fact gosh
22:07 hmmmm        you know what
22:07 hmmmm        a majority of these PRs are obvious client side scripting things
22:08 hmmmm        I think there's a reason for this.  the Minetest UI is one particularily deficient area and it's incredibly visible, so people tend to focus on that
22:08 hmmmm        i don't want to skip around but I think it's for the best
22:09 kahrl        I have a different idea for the player list, maybe completely off base but it might work
22:10 kahrl        essentially adding a tiny thing to the core that would allow doing the rest in a mod
22:10 kahrl        the idea is to add a playerlist flag to functions like hud_add
22:10 kahrl        hud items with that flag set will only be shown whenever tab is pressed
22:11 kahrl        what do you think?
22:11 est31        I don't know how good the HUD api is
22:11 hmmmm        it sucks
22:11 hmmmm        just trust me, it sucks
22:12 hmmmm        it works for now though, that's why people use it
22:12 kahrl        maybe it's time to improve it :P
22:12 hmmmm        I suppose your suggestion could work as a stopgap measure
22:12 est31        yes
22:13 hmmmm        it's as simple as adding another attribute to hud items
22:20 kilbith      #1328 can be closed as well.
22:20 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1328 -- Add 3D torches by BlockMen
22:20 kilbith      the shape is hardcoded and it's saner to have a meshnode for maintainance / preferences.  belongs to subgames.
22:22 est31        yes
22:23 est31        and this 2 pixel proble
22:23 est31        m
22:23 est31        or no
22:23 est31        I actually hate this "flat torch" thing
22:23 est31        thats hardcoded too
22:23 est31        this is at least 3d
22:23 est31        like a proper object
22:25 kilbith      also, keep in mind that torchlike is not only used for torches
22:25 est31        but?
22:26 kilbith      this code can fuck up nodes like lanterns or so
22:26 kilbith      whatever that is not a torch
22:26 est31        they should use meshnodes
22:26 kilbith      not necessarily
22:26 est31        its horrible to have 2d objects in a 3d world
22:27 kilbith      same goes for other drawtype then
22:27 est31        the only exception being things like curtains
22:27 kilbith      if you force the 3d here, it's no longer flexible
22:28 kilbith      and easy to maintain
22:29 kilbith      or alternatively this can be added as 'torchlike3d' drawtype
22:30 est31        the only torchlike node in homedecor is a cobweb
22:30 kilbith      homedecor is not all
22:30 est31        which is perhaps even a good usecase
22:31 kilbith      from a modder standpoint i'm strongly opposed to hardcode a 3d shape to torchlike
22:32 est31        it should never have been added
22:32 est31        same as for plantlike
22:33 kilbith      but c55 liked the flatness of those drawtypes :)
22:33 kilbith      it's just FOSS, you just have to draw pixels with gimp
22:33 kilbith      s/FOSS/KISS
22:35 kilbith      that is more flexible : https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1871
22:35 est31        perhaps we should add a "flat" drawtype
22:35 est31        but very laggy I think
22:35 kilbith      don't add a flat drawtype, the default torchlike should stick 2d
22:36 kilbith      because then you would force people to update their mods
22:36 est31        its only a string value
22:36 est31        ok
22:36 kilbith      really not, it belongs to a subgame as meshnode
22:36 est31        perhaps we should add a torchlike3d and a flat drawtype
22:36 kilbith      no need to complicate things
22:37 est31        and then tell people to update via logging
22:37 est31        do that for one release, and then the next release remove it
22:37 kilbith      for the history, it's me that requested to BlockMen to reopen this PR
22:38 kilbith      i thought wrong
22:38 Taoki        Ugh... a client Lua API is still being planned? Asking because it's one thing I am still not very sure about
22:38 est31        it is planned yes
22:38 Taoki        Although, I guess, it is a good idea. Just worried it might make modding too complex and divided and weird
22:39 est31        flexibility always comes at this cost
22:39 est31        but running code clientside has huge advantages
22:39 est31        you just dont have the network lag
22:39 Taoki        True, true
22:39 est31        and its distributed, and doesnt need server CPPU
22:39 est31        -P
22:40 Taoki        Hope it can be implemented in a clean and non-weird way
22:41 kilbith      kwoelkr's code is rather strong, no worries for that
22:47 est31        ok lets skip that then
22:47 est31        hmmmm, next one?
22:48 hmmmm        yep
22:49 hmmmm        close #1328?
22:49 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1328 -- Add 3D torches by BlockMen
22:49 hmmmm        this is something that clearly should be a meshnode but it's hardcoded
22:49 hmmmm        i'd like 3d torches but it doesn't need to get added to the engine
22:50 est31        the torchlike drawtype has a bad name
22:50 kilbith      yeah as i said, it's saner to use a meshnode for maintainance and fits the preferences
22:50 est31        doing "flat" is hardcoding too
22:50 hmmmm        it is possible to wallmount meshnodes?
22:50 est31        I'm not sure
22:50 kilbith      but flatness is KISS, you don't have to bother with Blender
22:53 est31        I'd merge the PR if 2 criteria are met: 1. make it torchlike3d, leave torchlike untouched (that one should be renamed to flat in the future, but thats other issue) 2. also work with higher density textures. just make the "middle" with 1/8 of the texture size
22:54 hmmmm        yeah but it's hardcoded
22:54 est31        we will get more hardcoded drawtypes in the future
22:54 hmmmm        that's so useless
22:54 est31        like cablelike
22:54 hmmmm        ugh
22:54 hmmmm        i would strongly prefer to shy away from hardcoded things
22:54 est31        otherwise you will have to register hundreds of connection combinations
22:55 hmmmm        why can't this be done with a meshnode?
22:55 est31        as kilbith said, you can then make torches only with gimp, no blender needed
22:55 est31        we are a minecraft-like voxel game engine, no irrlicht
22:58 hmmmm        yeah but
22:58 hmmmm        you can't do anything differently
22:58 kilbith      hardcoded = no flexibility
22:59 kilbith      against the master principle of MT
22:59 hmmmm        you can make torches... only torches.  the only torches you'll be able to make are rectangular prisms jutting out of a wall at an angle
22:59 hmmmm        the only flexibility you'd have is making the texture slightly different
22:59 est31        so, then remove torchlike altogether?
22:59 hmmmm        and with such a small texture that'd mean the only thing you'd be able to do is change the color
23:00 est31        its the same as for torchlike.
23:00 hmmmm        torchlike needs to stay around for reverse compatibility
23:00 hmmmm        it wasn't the smartest idea, but it was the best they had back then
23:00 est31        we should deprecate it then
23:00 est31        with a warning
23:01 kilbith      est31, talking about MC, you realize that there are some flat drawtypes in MC ?
23:01 est31        which?
23:01 kilbith      'signlike'
23:02 kilbith      hmm no, ladderlike
23:02 kilbith      but they are named differently
23:02 est31        yea ladders are even more or less ok
23:03 kilbith      ah, and the plants are all flats as well !
23:03 kilbith      like our plantlike
23:03 kilbith      so please listen to the modders for once
23:03 kilbith      that's a pretty bad idea to force using 3d there
23:04 kilbith      especially a determinated shape
23:04 est31        hmmmm, kilbith from what I find, we can't do right that torches blockmen proposes in that PR
23:04 est31        but only ones where there is no texture sticking out at the sides
23:05 est31        I think we should add this as a stopgap
23:05 hmmmm        you realize it becomes permanent, right?
23:05 est31        until we have wallmounted meshnodes
23:06 hmmmm        wait
23:06 hmmmm        are you sure we don't have wallmounted meshnodes already?
23:06 hmmmm        or anything that can replicate wallmounted?
23:06 hmmmm        vanessae?
23:07 hmmmm        est31: celeron seems to agree with me
23:08 kilbith      http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest/2015-01-03#i_4092174
23:08 est31        hmmmm, noted
23:09 est31        ok, so you can re-do it with meshnodes, but without flames sticking out at the sides?
23:09 hmmmm        we should probably look into ways to make implementing 3d torches simpler using meshnodes
23:26 Sokomine     regarding 3d torches: they may look nice but are usually horrible regarding gameplay. client prediction usually fails, so it feels like a very bad lag, and there are artifacts left when removing a torch. at least it was that way the last time i saw it used
23:26 Calinou      meshnodes make client prediction possible, normally
23:26 Calinou      using wallmounted parameter
23:26 Calinou      nodeboxes too but nodeboxes can't be rotated (see carbone_torches)
23:27 est31        lets jump that pr
23:27 est31        nex one?
23:29 Sokomine     Calinou: whatever. as long as it doesn't cause players to experience lag when placing a torch to get light it ought to be ok